Nale is such an idiot. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Chaotic Queen

2012-03-07, 10:07 PM

Honestly, Nale's stupider than Elan! Elan at least understands how the world works, and uses it to his advantage.

Take a look at the other villains:

:xykon: Is an epic-level sorcerer who pretends to be ignorant, but is actually as competent as he is powerful.

:redcloak: Is a master manipulator who let's Xykon think he's the one in charge.

Tarquin knows it's better to succeed in secrecy than to let everyone know who their enemy is.

Even Kubota is gifted with the Silver-Tongue.

:nale:? He spreads his specializations so wide that it hinders rather than helps him. He only covers the basics of his plans and doesn't consider every possible outcome, causing his plans to crumble whenever someone gets creative. He focuses more on having a big name than actually reaching his goal, and he's also a gigantic coward!

Does anyone else agree that Nale is the stupidest villain in this comic?

Skyrunner

2012-03-07, 10:10 PM

That's probably the point :3
Also, yes, I agree.

(What about MitD? Does he count?)

Squirrel_Token

2012-03-07, 10:11 PM

Yup. But I hardly think this qualifies as an earth-shattering conclusion. Nale is around to be a unwitting pawn of the IFCC.

MesiDoomstalker

2012-03-07, 10:17 PM

That's probably the point :3
Also, yes, I agree.

(What about MitD? Does he count?)

MitD is not a villian. Currently, he isn't even a willing agent in the sava game that is Team Evil. His role so far is to be a tool, a weapon, in Team Evil's arsenal. First against the Order and those like them and

SOD Spoiler:
Xykon against Redcloak with the eventual betrayal.

Now of course this can, and hopefully, will change. After meeting Mr. Stiffly O-Chul, MitD has started to realize not only his potential but also learn that he can think for himself. Until he acts upon this new development, he is simply a tool in Team Evil's arsenal.

More on topic, ya Nale is dunce and a laughable villian.

Gift Jeraff

2012-03-07, 10:23 PM

He is stupid, but the OOTS is even dumber--they keep falling for his tricks, after all. Well, I guess except for Haley (saw through his initial deception, couldn't communicate in Cliffport, subconsciously knew there was something up with Not-Elan in Azure City, and completely incapacitated in Bleedingham).

However, you have to give credit where credit is due: his first two plans failed because of things that were purely luck on the Order's part--a natural 20 and Julio Scoundrel. This third plan totally sucked, though. They should have teleported into the training grounds (which doesn't have an anti-magic field (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0741.html)), killed Roy and Belkar, got rid of the bodies, and laugh as the OOTS is once again totally lost without their leader. I also blame Zz'dtri for focusing on taunting V rather than just petrifying Haley, Elan, and V.

EDIT: Relying on Pompey to save them was also very dumb, but it wouldn't have been a problem if the literal Mechane hadn't entered the picture. (EDIT2: Well, I guess not literal, but it is literally named that...ah, screw it.)

Goosefarble

2012-03-07, 10:30 PM

He spreads his specializations so wide that it hinders rather than helps him.

Does it, though? He's pretty good at swordplay, and he has used charm person and suggestion several times to his advantage. In fact, a lot of his plans have come pretty close to success - the Order was on the ropes in the EoB, and he wasn't even prepared, then.

He's a pathetic villain, yes, but it's more often than not due to acts of gods rather than his own plans having flaws.

skaddix

2012-03-07, 11:21 PM

Nevereatcars

2012-03-07, 11:25 PM

Indeed. On this point, at least, there is consensus.

Jay R

2012-03-07, 11:56 PM

Does anyone else agree that Nale is the stupidest villain in this comic?
Really? You think he's worse than Baron Pineapple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)?

ti'esar

2012-03-08, 12:02 AM

Honestly, I think Nale is only an idiot by comparison to the other villains.

Snails

2012-03-08, 12:15 AM

Nale's first plan was pretty good, but he had enormous tactical advantages there. Furthermore, while WE may know that V would never prepare True Strike, Nale had no good reason to make such an assumption. Elf: a race famous for skill with longswords, longbows, and wizardry. Hmmm...

Nale's second plan kind of sucked rocks.

What are the odds that a middling+ level Bard will quickly break out of prison? 99%. What are the odds that there is an airship soon going from Cliffport to Azure City? 99%. What are the odds that middling+ level Bard can wheedle his way onto an airship? 99%. The fact that Julio appeared and helped Elan become competent is luck, however...

But the worse of it is not that Nale sometimes has mediocre plans. Nale dares his plans to fail for the fun of it. What were the odds that Durkon or V. would soon dispel the charms/suggestions on Belkar, and the three of them would come hunting Nale? 99%. Elan showing up probably saved Nale's life.

What makes Nale provably stupid is he did not bother to hurry up and just kill Haley with it was obvious his plan was on the verge of falling to pieces. Nale has Elan's sense of drama, but in the worst way: he likes plans that can easily fall apart because they are more fun, while simultaneously congratulating himself on how smart he is.

The third plan was thrown together. I will cut him some slack there, but he does not win any points either.

Goosefarble

2012-03-08, 12:26 AM

Really? You think he's worse than Baron Pineapple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)?

+10 points.

Particle_Man

2012-03-08, 12:27 AM

I think that Nale's biggest mistake is trusting his dad Tarquin right now.

MesiDoomstalker

2012-03-08, 12:33 AM

+10 points.

....FOR GRYFFINDOR! :smalltongue:

Ok, that was bad, I admit it. I'll go weep in a corner now for my insolence.

oppyu

2012-03-08, 12:44 AM

Nale's intelligent, but far from wise. And he seems to have bad luck with subordinates.

LordVader

2012-03-08, 12:45 AM

Nale's a bit of an overbearing idiot, true, but he's actually typically foiled due to an Act of God (sometimes literally) in favor of the Order rather than any actual failure on his part.

In the three straight-up fights between the Order and Linear Guild, where all participants were fully geared for combat, the Linear Guild should have won all three times if it weren't for outside influence (Eugene's hint at Haley's insane crit, a literal Act of God from Thor, and Malack) in the Order's favor.

Nale may not be the greatest villain, but he's certainly no slouch at defeating the Order in a fight.

Hell, the second time they fought his plan actually did work, and he very nearly pulled things off the first time too; again, foiled only by a fortuitous stroke of luck on the part of the Order.

RSLee

2012-03-08, 12:52 AM

Okay, to be fair, I think that Nale is a bit smarter than fricking Kubota. Kubota may have been able to squrim out of trouble all the time, but when it came down to it, the guy was just short-sighted as hell. His plan essentially boiled down to:

1. Kill Hinjo

2. ???

3. Recapture Azure City

4. Profit!!!

Honestly, I think that the main problem with Nale is that he's primarily appeared back before the series started getting dramatic with tragic deaths and shocking twists. He's really mostly only appeared back when the comic was lighter and more comedic.

Even Redcloak and Xykon only really became competent during the Azure city invasion. Before that, their only really accomplishment was getting defeated at Dorukan's Dungeon. That's really about the time where the vilains started getting truly dangerous and that's also the time where Nale and the Linear Guild disappeared for an entire book's worth of comics.

Porthos

2012-03-08, 12:53 AM

Honestly, Nale isn't that stupid. A bit too fond of overly complicated plans? Sure. Way too egotisitical? Yeah, especially lately. But stupid, nah.

What he is, is tremendously unlucky.

His plan in Dorukan's Dungeon only failed because someone rolled a Nat 20. And on the advice of Supernatural Interlopers. No way Nale is to blame for that one.

Let's not forget that his Cliffport plan worked brilliantly. And he was just seconds away from killing Haley until, again, he got tremendously unlucky by having Elan crash in. I mean, running in to Julio Scoundrél? Really now.

As for the Empire of Blood? I'm willing to cut him some slack as he had to bring something together rather quickly when he wasn't at full strength. And even there, he was doing rather well for himself all things considered.

What Nale ISN'T is powerful in the same league as Xykon and Redcloak. Thus he can't bring the same level of firepower to his battles, which helps cover for unforseen contigencies, and thus seems less of a threat in comparison.

And I also think he is suffering tremendously in comparison to Tarquin. But, hey, Tarquin has years of experience on him. If Nale lives long enough, there's always the potential for him to learn some lessons.

rbetieh

2012-03-08, 01:30 AM

What Nale is, is spoiled. He almost thinks he can't lose. Doesn't help when his two closest relations are Tarquin and Sabine.... I think if Nale ever felt like he was honestly taking a risk, he would act a little different. Then again, I think he has a right to be confident when his big rival happens to be the biggest looney in the comic. Its like Yosemite Sam vs Daffy Duck....

Jaros

2012-03-08, 01:36 AM

I think that Nale's biggest mistake is trusting his dad Tarquin right now.

Eh. True, but I don't think he really has a choice at the moment.

Although he doesn't have a choice because he stuck around near Tarquin, which was a big mistake.

Flame of Anor

2012-03-08, 02:00 AM

Honestly, Nale isn't that stupid. A bit too fond of overly complicated plans? Sure. Way too egotisitical? Yeah, especially lately. But stupid, nah.

What he is, is tremendously unlucky.

Perhaps that's the problem--he's insufficiently genre savvy, so he doesn't understand that the universe is contractually obligated to give the good guys that kind of luck. :smallwink:

Red XIV

2012-03-08, 02:24 AM

I think that Nale's biggest mistake is trusting his dad Tarquin right now.
Nale had two choices: (1) make himself useful to Tarquin or (2) die. I'm pretty sure he made the smarter choice.

Okay, to be fair, I think that Nale is a bit smarter than fricking Kubota. Kubota may have been able to squrim out of trouble all the time, but when it came down to it, the guy was just short-sighted as hell. His plan essentially boiled down to:

1. Kill Hinjo

2. ???

3. Recapture Azure City

4. Profit!!!
Kubota figured that if Hinjo were killed in a way that couldn't be provably traced to him, he'd be in a good chance to take over. And he probably was right. Without any blood relatives of Hinjo to succeed to the throne, one of the other nobles would have to be chosen. And presumably he would've tried to recapture Azure City once Xykon got bored and left. If Elan and V hadn't been around, he would've stood a good chance of succeeding in at least the first half of his plan.

Bavarian itP

2012-03-08, 02:32 AM

What he is, is tremendously unlucky.

His plan in Dorukan's Dungeon only failed because someone rolled a Nat 20. And on the advice of Supernatural Interlopers. No way Nale is to blame for that one.

Let's not forget that his Cliffport plan worked brilliantly. And he was just seconds away from killing Haley until, again, he got tremendously unlucky by having Elan crash in. I mean, running in to Julio Scoundrél? Really now.

A villainous plan that fails to account for the stupid luck of the good guys is not a villainous plan at all. Also, "Kill the Oots" is the #1 priority for Nale, while "Look out for the LG" isn't even in the top ten for the order. They have bigger fish to fry.

Steward

2012-03-08, 03:25 AM

A villainous plan that fails to account for the stupid luck of the good guys is not a villainous plan at all. Also, "Kill the Oots" is the #1 priority for Nale, while "Look out for the LG" isn't even in the top ten for the order. They have bigger fish to fry.

Hey, now, I don't think the Order really has 10 other more important things to think about than the Linear Guild! They're definitely in the top 8 at least!

Nale isn't a bad villain. His plans are always a little over-ambitious and convoluted considering his resources (if you can't take down Elan, you're probably not ready to conquer a colossal god-killing abomination). He reminds me of the Legion of Doom from the Superfriends. They would be winning for the first 21 minutes of the episode; like, they would have the Justice League captured, their powers neutralized, etc. But instead of consolidating that victory and calling it a day, they would decide to risk everything on some ridiculous Part 33 of their master plan. And once that hastily-constructed phase falls apart, everything they had accomplished up until that point is effectively neutralized and they're back to what they had at the beginning.

The Cliffport thing was an excellent example here.

OK, you've got Elan, unconscious and at your mercy. Why not just kill him now? That's what you wanted, right? Just kill him and withdraw your forces. Infiltrate the Order later, or just leave them alone!

Bastian Weaver

2012-03-08, 03:50 AM

Yes. Yes, he is an idiot. In fact, he's more stupid than Thog.
:thog: thog elegant in thog's simplicity.

Finagle

2012-03-08, 04:56 AM

OK, you've got Elan, unconscious and at your mercy. Why not just kill him now? That's what you wanted, right? Just kill him and withdraw your forces. Infiltrate the Order later, or just leave them alone!
Ah, but imagine that outcome for a moment. Feel the existential emptiness that Nale would have after killing Elan. His life would have no purpose after that point. Nale subconsciously sabotages his own plans, in order to preserve his psyche. If Elan wasn't around, Nale would stare into the abyss of emptiness of the soul.

Kish

2012-03-08, 06:20 AM

Does it, though? He's pretty good at swordplay, and he has used charm person and suggestion several times to his advantage.

His abilities serve him well when he uses them against enemies much lower-level than him, or with specific glaring weaknesses he can exploit (he can exploit Elan's horrible Will save, as the Order can exploit Thog's).

Let's not forget that his Cliffport plan worked brilliantly. And he was just seconds away from killing Haley until, again, he got tremendously unlucky by having Elan crash in. I mean, running in to Julio Scoundrél? Really now.

He assumed that Elan would just stay in prison--an assumption Elan knew better than to make about Nale.

And if he doesn't get points off for having failed to predict Haley's prophecied natural 20, then he doesn't get points for Haley choosing to ignore her suspicions because of a different prophecy.

oppyu

2012-03-08, 07:54 AM

His abilities serve him well when he uses them against enemies much lower-level than him, or with specific glaring weaknesses he can exploit (he can exploit Elan's horrible Will save, as the Order can exploit Thog's).

He assumed that Elan would just stay in prison--an assumption Elan knew better than to make about Nale.

And if he doesn't get points off for having failed to predict Haley's prophecied natural 20, then he doesn't get points for Haley choosing to ignore her suspicions because of a different prophecy.
Elan knew Nale was going to break out because of genre savvy. Nale didn't think Elan could because Elan at that point was a weak, useless party member with no intelligence or combat skills.

As for his build, I think it works well as a support member. He can be a useful back-up caster to Zz'dtri, Hilgya, Leeky and Pompey, and a back-up fighter to Sabine and Thog. He probably gained something from his rogue levels as well... maybe. The versatility serves him well as a mastermind leader.

Smolder

2012-03-08, 09:08 AM

DarrenLocke

2012-03-08, 11:02 AM

Nale needs to die.

Let's review.
He's Elan's nemesis with backstory. Except we have Tarquin now, who has more backstory, more power, better plans and funnier jokes.

He's the head of the Linear Guild. Except the LG is down to 3 people and a tenuous alliance that could break down at any time.

He's a primary villian. Really? Has he ever been that important to the plot? He's a villain, but far from The Villain.

He's Elan's brother. Elan wouldn't kill him, would he? Well, he knows he's destined to dramatically duel his father to the death. And he knows that story arcs need closure.

Those are kinda silly reasons to kill off Nale and the Linear Guild.

I'd argue that Nale is a great villain.

Sure, maybe not in the "Sorting Algorithm of Evil" kinda way. Xykon, Redcloak, The IFCC and Tarquin (not necessarily in that order) may arguably be "better" Villains in that they have more resources, experience and class levels that the Linear Guild, but that's a very narrow-minded view.

It'd be really boring if the OoTS was exclusively opposed by the above four persons. The Linear Guild, in all of their appearances, have made for interesting personal "mono-a-mono" confrontations that you just can't do with Xykon etc. The arguably "Big Name" villains all have empires and plenty of firepower to bring to bear that has to be used sparingly, so as to prevent overuse.

The reason why we think Xykon is so OP is because the only time the Order came close to killing him outright was when a Soul-Spliced V turned up unexpectedly. And he still won in the end.

The Linear Guild, narratively speaking, loses battles so the other Villains don't have to.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next time the OoTS directly fight Xykon, it'll be the final battle.

Goosefarble

2012-03-08, 11:05 AM

He's the head of the Linear Guild. Except the LG is down to 3 people and a tenuous alliance that could break down at any time.

Is it? Last I checked the Linear Guild was back up to 6. If you only count original members, it's down to 2, since Thog is buried and may well be dead.

BaronOfHell

2012-03-08, 11:16 AM

I also once thought Nale was a real genius. I could see how the oots actually had been somewhat lucky in their previous encounters. Or at least Nale had shown he could manage to exploit his opponents weakness and through that bring him in an incredibly advantagous position.

Let's just say that stuff like "belkon" and putting the sash on wrong made me change opinion about him. Nale is intelligent, but not very wise. He was a worthy opponent for the order in the past, but I think he would need to step up his game big time to be able to remain a worthy opponent. Which I think Tarquin is practically helping him with.

If you only count original members, it's down to 2, since Thog is buried and may well be dead.
Nale, Sabine and Z. That is 3.

rbetieh

2012-03-08, 11:37 AM

Ultimate Nale gambit: Once the killing of Elan at EoB came to a complete failure, Nale knew his father would catch him eventually. He decided to let himself be caught. Why, you ask? Because Nale had a full team, including cleric and he did not want his father to know about it. He knew his dad would protect him from Malack, and he also knew his dad would seek to control the gate (item is too powerful to not secure) should he learn about it. The plan, thus was to get Tarquin and hopefully Malack out of EoB while his yet to be revealed Cleric goes about completing his 'mission'. Sabine was the one that relayed the orders to start the backup plan when she popped out and then back in. Everything else you saw was an elaborate act.

Ok so what do I think the unnammed cleric is doing? Well my top 3 guesses are:

1) Deposing the Empress
2) Convincing the Empress to join Nales side
3) Retrieving Thog

And there you go, Nale cred goes waaaaay up. And he turns into a Xanatos.

BaronOfHell

2012-03-08, 11:41 AM

Except that would be needlesly complica... oh right, nevermind.

Chaotic Queen

2012-03-08, 12:03 PM

Well another issue is that Nale sticks to the same formula he started with, and it's seriously getting old.

Particle_Man

2012-03-08, 12:09 PM

Is it? Last I checked the Linear Guild was back up to 6. If you only count original members, it's down to 2, since Thog is buried and may well be dead.

LG may be up to 7 if the dominated kobold gets freed. With two kobolds on the team the LG will be unstoppable. :smallsmile:

qwertyu63

2012-03-08, 12:13 PM

LG may be up to 7 if the dominated kobold gets freed. With two kobolds on the team the LG will be unstoppable. :smallsmile:

No, that would just give :belkar: something to do with each dagger. :smallbiggrin:

Fish

2012-03-08, 12:57 PM

Nale doesn't get credit for "not anticipating a natural 20." Natural 20s come up all the time when you have 6 PCs making rolls against you. Someone could've made a Sense Motive roll, defeated his evil opposite, or tipped the scale in some way long before he was making his escape.

He isn't a stupid enemy, he just falls victim to his vanity. Rather than go for the easy, simple, or assured victory, he plays for the dramatic self-aggrandizing reveal. In epic lich terms, he's all style and no sledgehammer. In goblin priest terms, he hasn't yet learned the lesson about stupid risks.

I totally agree he is there as a comic foil. He loses so the other villains don't. Comedy and victory relieve the tension the other bad guys create.

suzaliscious

2012-03-08, 01:18 PM

Sorry, I'm not the biggest fan of Nale, but I will disagree that he's dumber than Kubota.

Kubota was a petty noble grabbing at the strings of fleeting political power. He fancied himself some sort of mastermind, but his problem was the opposite of shortsightedness - he couldn't see what had to be done *now*. Attacking Hinjo in the middle of the invasion? Sound in principle, but let's imagine for a moment that if he were to succeed - he's killed off the commanding officer and made Azure City that much more vulnerable. How in the blazes could he know that he could recapture it later? He didn't know how big the force was, what they really wanted, how much magical backing they possessed (Epic Lich and Cleric, anyone?) and so forth. He was narrow-minded to the extreme, focusing only on one goal and not caring who or what was sacrificed in the process. Hello, Therkla.

All for naught when an elf with actual might and arcane power reorganized his constituent molecules into an incoherent heap. He was only ever as much trouble to Hinjo because he was a Lawful Good Paladin who wouldn't in any circumstances neuter Kubota's threat without due process. Failing to account for those without such qualms - well, that's not the only thing that went wrong for him that night, but you don't taunt fate like that.

Yoyoyo

2012-03-08, 01:24 PM

He isn't a stupid enemy, he just falls victim to his vanity. Rather than go for the easy, simple, or assured victory, he plays for the dramatic self-aggrandizing reveal. In epic lich terms, he's all style and no sledgehammer. In goblin priest terms, he hasn't yet learned the lesson about stupid risks.

Yup. Elan has shown growth and maturity and is far less stupid than he used to be. Nale is over due for the same kind of development as RC and, now that he is back with dear old Dad, may get it. Or not. And if not, I bet he pays for it, probably through some sort of double cross from Sabine that Nale should have seen coming if he only listened to Tarquin.

BaronOfHell

2012-03-08, 01:31 PM

Nale doesn't get credit for "not anticipating a natural 20." Natural 20s come up all the time when you have 6 PCs making rolls against you.
No matter of how many 20's would have been achieved before, at the time of the escape, there was only one with the range to hit Nale, and therefore only one to roll the dice. It'd be a 5% no matter what.

Beside, making effective plans, one will often realise that in most environments, you can't prepare for everything. The point will be to make the plan as likely as possible, given ones current knowledge, to succeed. When Nale's plan failed, from his perspective, it was a 5% fail chance. That's certainly not a failure on Nale's part unless he could have avoided that fail chance altogether and through that maintaining a higher success chance (which is unlikely, because it'd require to get to Haley's bow before his opposition would get at him).

Someone could've made a Sense Motive roll
Haley. They didn't listen to her. Heck I think only Roy could have stopped it had he made his Sense Motive and that was again a 5% risk. Considering in any kind of situation where you've to trick someone, 5% would then always be an absolute minimum of risk. Seeing as Roy is lawful good, even if he had rolled his sense motive, it'd probably just mean no team up.

defeated his evil opposite
They didn't even get to act before Nale's team were flying away after casting the ice wall.

or tipped the scale in some way long before he was making his escape.
There'll most likely always be something you didn't predict. In general it's how well you do, which you'll be evaluated upon. Nale's plan did very well and only failed because of a helping hand, I'm certain Nale shouldn't be criticised for not foreseeing.

He isn't a stupid enemy, he just falls victim to his vanity. Rather than go for the easy, simple, or assured victory, he plays for the dramatic self-aggrandizing reveal. In epic lich terms, he's all style and no sledgehammer. In goblin priest terms, he hasn't yet learned the lesson about stupid risks.

I totally agree he is there as a comic foil. He loses so the other villains don't. Comedy and victory relieve the tension the other bad guys create.

I don't really disagree with you. I think that someone before mentioned that Nale would lose purpose of existance if he actually won, so that might explain a lot. Though he does have other enemies in his father and the whole quest of taking over his realm, it's funny to notice that Nale went from:

Trying to figure out a way to conquer his fathers kingdom -> getting an army from dorukan's dungeon -> losing that army -> Trying to defeat a single group of people.

Now one would expect he'd try to find another way to gain enough power to defeat his fathers kingdom, but in stead he changes goals completely. Now it's Elan and the oots he's after.

Comparing to Xykon who, while fleeing in the dungeons of dorukan secret escape tunnel, said he was going to plot his vengeance against "this greensword guy". However Xykon doesn't plot any vengeance. He does not base his role of existance on destroying someone else, in stead he goes right back to focus on the important gate plan. Focusing on his own good and not someone elses bad as the main goal.

When Nale then finally returns to the EoB, he does so unprepared. He's not able to take down his fathers kingdom and he has to operate through stealth. At least I'd like to think when he heard about the gates, he dropped the vengeance against Elan's gang for that moment and went back to focus on conquering the EoB. Maybe through the gates. However I still haven't figured out how he exactly knew about the rituals, but since he can't cast the rituals, I think it's quite clear that in the end, this latest plan of Nale was always a dead-end.

Goosefarble

2012-03-08, 02:03 PM

Nale, Sabine and Z. That is 3.

...I would like to retract my former statement as well as most of my IQ.

Math_Mage

2012-03-08, 02:15 PM

For everyone talking about natural 20s and skill checks, let me just remind them that skill checks don't auto-succeed on nat 20s. That's attack rolls and saves. The opposed check of Roy's Sense Motive and Nale's Bluff, on the other hand, probably had quite a bit more than a 5% chance of resulting in failure for Nale. Nature of the beast.

Fish

2012-03-08, 04:23 PM

Roy had no ranks in Sense Motive, but Nale could still have made a natural 1 on a Bluff check, yes?

Whether we're speaking of "natural 20" or just "a halfway decent roll" we can say Nale's plan involved a lot of risk that the dice would turn on him.

MeanMrsMustard

2012-03-08, 04:46 PM

This is way, way off-topic, but how exactly do you pronounce Nale's name? I mean, I've always been saying it "Nah-lay," but apparently Elan's mom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) says "Nail." :smallconfused:

Smolder

2012-03-08, 04:57 PM

ti'esar

2012-03-08, 05:02 PM

I've always pronounced it "nail" as well. Of course, I also expected that Elan was actually pronounced like "elan"...

Herald Alberich

2012-03-08, 05:05 PM

Yup. Elan has shown growth and maturity and is far less stupid than he used to be. Nale is over due for the same kind of development as RC and, now that he is back with dear old Dad, may get it. Or not. And if not, I bet he pays for it, probably through some sort of double cross from Sabine that Nale should have seen coming if he only listened to Tarquin.

Nale's certainly headed for a betrayal, but I think it'll be from Tarquin and/or Malack. I'm fairly certain he's acheived Sabine's true loyalty (her presumed CE alignment as a succubus notwithstanding), as this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html) makes clear.

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-08, 05:06 PM

I've always pronounced it Nail. But then again, I have no idea how to pronounce Elan.
Thog's confession wouldn't be nearly so punny if Nale wasn't pronounced "nail". For what it's worth the Giant pronounces Elan "ee-lyn".

Snails

2012-03-08, 05:22 PM

It can down to a Natural 20 only because the OotS are pretty inept (and entirely reasonable dramatic license on the part of the Giant). Up against a fairly competent party, there would have been somewhere in the realm of a 50% to 95% chance of taking out the amulet.

The bottom line is that Nale habitually bets on ineptitude in others when it is not necessary.

Elan was lucky to find Julio. But Elan not finding Julio could have easily cost Nale his life (because an unenchanted Belkar, backed by Durkon and V, would have come hunting for Nale's kidneys soon enough).

Dwy

2012-03-09, 06:36 AM

I actually love Nale.

He isn't the best at being bad, but he's still proven himself able to challenge the Order repeatedly, and lived to tell the tale.

Unlike most of the other villains in the OotS-plot, Nale is not a world-scale/multiverse-scale villain. He is on the personal-scale, or, in the Cliffport plotline, on a city-scale. He is not quite as experienced as his father, the bearer of the crimson mantle and a certain epic-level lich, but that's exactly what makes Nale interesting, to me at least.

Nale is a wild card. Unlike Xykon and Redcloak, Nale is not an extreme threat to the world if left to his own devices. He is EVIL, no argument there, but heck, he's been raised that way, and while a head-heel-turn is unlikely, a Draco-turn (Continuing to be despicable and mean, but giving the heroes a break) could be done. Or he could, like above mentioned posters have mentioned get betrayed. Or he could betray his old man and the lizgreaper once more. Or he could be killed by a level 2 citizen. Or he could fall for Elan's latest insane plan. Or he could pretend to. Or he could make a leap for redemption and get killed. Or... Well, with Nale, we just can't know. And that's why I like him.

Emulgator

2012-03-09, 08:03 AM

I red a theory on OOTS forum, that Nale's complicated plans are the only way he could win with Tarquin's pragmatic villainy. Take this post for example:

Ultimate Nale gambit: Once the killing of Elan at EoB came to a complete failure, Nale knew his father would catch him eventually. He decided to let himself be caught. Why, you ask? Because Nale had a full team, including cleric and he did not want his father to know about it. He knew his dad would protect him from Malack, and he also knew his dad would seek to control the gate (item is too powerful to not secure) should he learn about it. The plan, thus was to get Tarquin and hopefully Malack out of EoB while his yet to be revealed Cleric goes about completing his 'mission'. Sabine was the one that relayed the orders to start the backup plan when she popped out and then back in. Everything else you saw was an elaborate act.

Ok so what do I think the unnammed cleric is doing? Well my top 3 guesses are:

1) Deposing the Empress
2) Convincing the Empress to join Nales side
3) Retrieving Thog

And there you go, Nale cred goes waaaaay up. And he turns into a Xanatos.

That's Nale style, and you know it. He propably has several wild cards, such as Amun - Zora in case of emergency. Therefore that needlessly complicated plan would became a way to actually beat Tarquin and OOTS, after they're weakened. How else would YOU fight with Tarquin's philosophy and have a chance of winning?

And I'll ask here: how will Nale's needlessly complicated bulid profit him? His plans work great if no one stops them, therefore there must be ome kind of prestige class, giving him an enormous advantage(and mirroring Elan's choice.)

Needle

2012-03-09, 10:03 AM

Nale anticipated the natural 20 on the first fight, hence why he took care of Durkon before escaping. What he didn't expect was for his cleric to get karma-ed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0060.html) before the "fight in case I can't escape". I imagine that with Hylgia up, LG would be able to take care of a clericless OotS :smalltongue:

That and lawyers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) :smallbiggrin:

Second fight was so-so, I mean, letting Thog "guard" Elan at prison? Why not let Leeky be imprisoned and prevent any escape plan while Nale disposes of the OotS? :smallsigh: He deserved it, but was like his only big mistake.

Third fight was pretty good for being thrown in the run, and I like that cleric theory from above :smalltongue:

Nale is a small villain, but not so stupid, just not wise enough as told above.

rbetieh

2012-03-09, 11:23 AM

I red a theory on OOTS forum, that Nale's complicated plans are the only way he could win with Tarquin's pragmatic villainy. Take this post for example:

That's Nale style, and you know it. He propably has several wild cards, such as Amun - Zora in case of emergency. Therefore that needlessly complicated plan would became a way to actually beat Tarquin and OOTS, after they're weakened. How else would YOU fight with Tarquin's philosophy and have a chance of winning?

And I'll ask here: how will Nale's needlessly complicated bulid profit him? His plans work great if no one stops them, therefore there must be ome kind of prestige class, giving him an enormous advantage(and mirroring Elan's choice.)

His Build? What nobody knows about Nale is that he took the Able Learner feat at level 1 and have been maxing out his Use Magical Devices skill. Nale figures he can control the gate by "Faking it". :smallbiggrin:

Flame of Anor

2012-03-09, 12:16 PM

50Copper

2012-03-09, 12:24 PM

Nale isn't an idiot, he just has low Wis. Overall he probably has some of the highest mental stats in the comic.

He's one of the better examples of high Int, low Wis I've seen. Aside from, you know, most of this forum.

MesiDoomstalker

2012-03-09, 01:26 PM

Feathersnow

2012-03-09, 07:20 PM

His Build? What nobody knows about Nale is that he took the Able Learner feat at level 1 and have been maxing out his Use Magical Devices skill. Nale figures he can control the gate by "Faking it". :smallbiggrin:

Uh... do sorcerers need ranks Use Magical Device to use them? Because he casts as a level 8 sorcerer, although I charitably hope most of those come from previously unmentioned levels in Eldritch Knight. The only way he could cast the divine part is if he could obtain a scroll containing it, and only Redcloak or a very high level artificer or warlock could make such a thing. And we know damn well RC wouldn't make it, even if he has the appropriate feat.

rbetieh

2012-03-09, 07:32 PM

Uh... do sorcerers need ranks Use Magical Device to use them? Because he casts as a level 8 sorcerer, although I charitably hope most of those come from previously unmentioned levels in Eldritch Knight. The only way he could cast the divine part is if he could obtain a scroll containing it, and only Redcloak or a very high level artificer or warlock could make such a thing. And we know damn well RC wouldn't make it, even if he has the appropriate feat.

No, but the Gates have divine components as well. So if you want to fake that....

Feathersnow

2012-03-09, 07:37 PM

No, but the Gates have divine components as well. So if you want to fake that....
That's my second point, he'd need an item, the gates don't have the capacity to manipulate the rifts in any usefully evil way (I don't think), and the rifts themselves cannot be manipulated with the UMD skill, barring an item of the nature I described.

And only RC or the hypothetical warlock could make it.

Jay R

2012-03-09, 08:28 PM

The Linear Guild, narratively speaking, loses battles so the other Villains don't have to.

Umm, so that's why Trigak, Xykon in Dorukan's dungeon, Samantha, the young adult black dragon, the ancient black dragon, and Bozzak all won in their battles with the Order of the Stick?

I am not fully convinced by your assertion that the other villains never lose.

rbetieh

2012-03-09, 11:39 PM

That's my second point, he'd need an item, the gates don't have the capacity to manipulate the rifts in any usefully evil way (I don't think), and the rifts themselves cannot be manipulated with the UMD skill, barring an item of the nature I described.

And only RC or the hypothetical warlock could make it.

Nah, all he needs is some green body paint, divers frogman shoes, a set of vulcan ears, and a good roll of perfrom(goblin accent). He thusly uses UMD to fake being a goblin, and the Crimson Mantle grants him the knowledge he needs, easy (except that getting the cloak from redcloack think). :smallbiggrin:

Steward

2012-03-10, 12:19 AM

oppyu

2012-03-10, 12:30 AM

Miriel

2012-03-10, 12:35 AM

since Thog is buried and may well be dead.
We didn't see the body, so he's still alive, that's certain.

ti'esar

2012-03-10, 12:42 AM

Most of those guys were defeated by the Order of the Stick.

Which was the original poster's point (although it's not a strictly comparable situation, since they weren't really recurring villains).

We didn't see the body, so he's still alive, that's certain.

Normally, I'd agree, but that fight did have a certain "swan song" feel to it. It's hard to see how Thog could get a better send-off. And in point of fact, I think that's the real issue here - not whether Thog is dead, but whether he's coming back. It's entirely possible that his ambiguous "demise" may have been a way for Rich to write him out without alienating his fanbase.

skaddix

2012-03-10, 12:48 AM

Most of those guys were defeated by the Order of the Stick.

The difference is those guys did not have advance planning to prep for the order. Nale had prep time every time.

oppyu

2012-03-10, 12:54 AM

The difference is those guys did not have advance planning to prep for the order. Nale had prep time every time.
Xykon, Trigak, Ancient Black Dragon and Bozzok all had prep time before confronting the order. And while Samantha and her father didn't really get prep time, the rogue army confronted and defeated the Order three times in a row. (1: Capturing Elan. 2: Capturing Haley, Vaarsuvius and Belkar (minus Roy, Elan, Durkon) 3: Subduing the re-united Order once Roy tried to rescue them (minus Durkon)

Steward

2012-03-10, 01:31 AM

Samantha and her Dad actually won before Durkon accidentally took them out with his treephobia :smalltongue:

Gotcha, so they won until the Order defeated them. :smallbiggrin:

RSLee

2012-03-10, 02:36 AM

Normally, I'd agree, but that fight did have a certain "swan song" feel to it. It's hard to see how Thog could get a better send-off.

I would think that "ambiguously left buried under rubble with nobody sure of whether he's dead and then completely forgotten about" would rank pretty damn low on the "Best Possible Send-Off List".

Thog's still alive. Rich has always been good at giving his characters meaningful deaths and I doubt that he would dispose of one of his most popular villains like that. Aside from Kubota, who REALLY deserved what he got, every major death in the comic has had a lot of pathos behind their fate. If Thog does die, it's going to be with a bang, not with a "Oh, him? He's been dead for ages."

ti'esar

2012-03-10, 02:45 AM

I would think that "ambiguously left buried under rubble with nobody sure of whether he's dead and then completely forgotten about" would rank pretty damn low on the "Best Possible Send-Off List"

I'm talking about the fight leading up to it.

Although for the record, I don't really believe this - I'm just trying to offer another voice to the whole "villain 'dies' with no body found? He must be alive" thing. We most likely have not seen the last of Thog, but I think there is a legitimate argument to be made that we have, even if I personally doubt it.

Miriel

2012-03-10, 05:11 AM

I agree the fight had a very final feel, but Elan will at the very least mention the fact that no body was found. If it weren't this comic, I would not believe he would come back.

skaddix

2012-03-10, 05:17 AM

Xykon, Trigak, Ancient Black Dragon and Bozzok all had prep time before confronting the order. And while Samantha and her father didn't really get prep time, the rogue army confronted and defeated the Order three times in a row. (1: Capturing Elan. 2: Capturing Haley, Vaarsuvius and Belkar (minus Roy, Elan, Durkon) 3: Subduing the re-united Order once Roy tried to rescue them (minus Durkon)

Not sure they had prep and certainly not weeks.

Xykon lost to dumb luck. He crushed Roy in the next match.

Trigak just got hired and sent no prep.

Ambush was the only one they had prep for. The other instances they just won no prep involved. Bandits mostly taking it thanks to Sam and Numbers.

Ancient Black Dragon had prep but lost to something that could not be predicted. How was she suppose to reasonably know that 3 Archfiends would soul splice 3 Epic Casters into V? This can hardly be compared to nale

Jaros

2012-03-10, 08:58 AM

I'm talking about the fight leading up to it.

Although for the record, I don't really believe this - I'm just trying to offer another voice to the whole "villain 'dies' with no body found? He must be alive" thing. We most likely have not seen the last of Thog, but I think there is a legitimate argument to be made that we have, even if I personally doubt it.

Actually, I like your argument that while he most likely will come back, he won't necessarily be part of the action.

DarrenLocke

2012-03-10, 09:54 AM

Umm, so that's why Trigak, Xykon in Dorukan's dungeon, Samantha, the young adult black dragon, the ancient black dragon, and Bozzak all won in their battles with the Order of the Stick?

I am not fully convinced by your assertion that the other villains never lose.

My assertion is not that the other major villains never suffer setbacks. My assertion is that in personal mono-a-mono confrontations, they haven't lost. At least in a long time.

I don't think you could call any of the above mentioned minor antagonists as being in the same league as Team Evil, Linear Guild, IFCC or Empire of Blood. They're minor players, in the grand scheme of things with no great ambitions.

Jay R

2012-03-10, 10:40 AM

Which was the original poster's point (although it's not a strictly comparable situation, since they weren't really recurring villains).

Well, Trigak was obviously supposed to be a recurring villain. I mean, he had a name! And he was in the middle of swearing to get them and their little dog, too.

OK, that's just playing with the comic. But the idea that the Linear Guild exists to lose so that the other villains don't is clearly false, since other villains do. Oh, you can come up with reasons why this or that villain doesn't "count", to try to preserve the notion, but as soon as you do, you've given up on the thesis that only the LG lose.

My assertion is not that the other major villains never suffer setbacks. My assertion is that in personal mono-a-mono confrontations, they haven't lost. At least in a long time.

I don't think you could call any of the above mentioned minor antagonists as being in the same league as Team Evil, Linear Guild, IFCC or Empire of Blood. They're minor players, in the grand scheme of things with no great ambitions.

Ummm, so you're not including villains who lose for good, since they aren't recurring, and you're not including Xykon being defeated at Dorukan's gate because it was a long time ago.

"The Linear Guild has existed since comic #43 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html) so other major villains, defined as villains who don't lose (after comic #114 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)) don't have to lose."

I must be really naive about story-telling. I guess I didn't know about the literary Law of Conservation of Which Villains Lose. I thought the Linear Guild existed to provide a back-story and tension for Elan, running kobold gags for Belkar, an important moment for Durkon, a threat to Roy's little sister, a nemesis for Haley who is more important and hotter than Crystal, a set-up for the introduction of Tarquin, - in short - gags for this humor strip, continuing adventures for this continuing adventure strip, important character points for this character-driven strip, and plot for this plot-heavy strip.

Dwy

2012-03-10, 10:50 AM

Just realised: Nale is comparable to Sylvester in looney tunes.

He cannot win simply because if Nale wins, Elan or other at least one other member of the order dies, but if Elan wins the status quo is maintained.

Seeing Nale loose time after time makes a small part of me want him to catch that bird get a single victory, but if that should ever happen the consequenses would be pretty dire.

Steward

2012-03-10, 10:58 AM

Trigak just got hired and sent no prep.

How do you know that? If you were hired to kill someone, wouldn't you prepare for battle? It's possible that they didn't prepare, but we can't know that.

DarrenLocke

2012-03-10, 11:10 AM

Well, Trigak was obviously supposed to be a recurring villain. I mean, he had a name! And he was in the middle of swearing to get them and their little dog, too.

OK, that's just playing with the comic. But the idea that the Linear Guild exists to lose so that the other villains don't is clearly false, since other villains do. Oh, you can come up with reasons why this or that villain doesn't "count", to try to preserve the notion, but as soon as you do, you've given up on the thesis that only the LG lose.

“Coming up with reasons” as to whether or not something is or is not true is called “supporting your argument”.

My point being: Out of the Major/Recurring Villains, the Linear Guild have had more personal mono-a-mono/face-to-face/sword-to-sword encounters with the OoTS than the others that have resulted in defeat. This is to preserve the dramatic effect of the other Major/Recurring Villains.

I'm disregarding the other minor “villains of the week” because, well... They're not Major/Recurring. They don't qualify into the point of debate.

Ummm, so you're not including villains who lose for good, since they aren't recurring, and you're not including Xykon being defeated at Dorukan's gate because it was a long time ago.

On the first point, simply yes. They're not Major/Recurring Villains, so they have no place in a debate concerning Major/Recurring Villains.
Second point, yes. Xykon's last defeat was a long time ago. Ever since he's had the Order on the ropes whenever they've met.

"The Linear Guild has existed since comic #43 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html) so other major villains, defined as villains who don't lose (after comic #114 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)) don't have to lose."

I must be really naive about story-telling. I guess I didn't know about the literary Law of Conservation of Which Villains Lose. I thought the Linear Guild existed to provide a back-story and tension for Elan, running kobold gags for Belkar, an important moment for Durkon, a threat to Roy's little sister, a nemesis for Haley who is more important and hotter than Crystal, a set-up for the introduction of Tarquin, - in short - gags for this humor strip, continuing adventures for this continuing adventure strip, important character points for this character-driven strip, and plot for this plot-heavy strip.

Well, that's a quote not attributable to me, but yourself. You literally made it up.

And I wouldn't say you're naïve, perse, but you seem to be unfamiliar with the idea of conservation of the Big Bad, yes. A serious villain can't be taken seriously if he is defeated every week. It's why everyone makes fun of Saturday Morning Cartoon Villainy. Megatron/Skelator getting beaten by Optimus/He-man every week made him look foolish and incompetent.

As for...

I thought the Linear Guild existed to provide a back-story and tension for Elan, running kobold gags for Belkar, an important moment for Durkon, a threat to Roy's little sister, a nemesis for Haley who is more important and hotter than Crystal, a set-up for the introduction of Tarquin, - in short - gags for this humor strip, continuing adventures for this continuing adventure strip, important character points for this character-driven strip, and plot for this plot-heavy strip.

Yes. They also perform these roles. Your point...?

Kish

2012-03-10, 11:25 AM

My point being: Out of the Major/Recurring Villains,

That being a group that consists of Nale, Sabine, Thog, Xykon, and Redcloak now? Just so we can fix the goalposts.

the Linear Guild have had more personal mono-a-mono/face-to-face/sword-to-sword encounters with the OoTS than the others that have resulted in defeat.

Technically, barely, true.

My assertion is that in personal mono-a-mono confrontations, [other major villains] haven't lost. At least in a long time.

Not true at all; Xykon lost the very last time he had a personal confrontation with any member of the Order, when he clashed with Vaarsuvius, Blackwing, and O-Chul.

I look forward to reading about how what matters there is who got knocked out when he and Vaarsuvius were casting spells at each other, not who was left screaming and ranting and smashing his own tower at the end of the encounter.

This is to preserve the dramatic effect of the other Major/Recurring Villains.
This is a claim that requires support, not merely assertion. The Linear Guild is weaker than the Order, Xykon is high-epic, Redcloak is nearly epic and has never clashed with the Order directly. Of course the Linear Guild has lost more often than Xykon has.

Edit: And when I say "This is a claim that requires support," I don't mean support for the idea that preserving the image of a villain is a thing. I mean support for your flat assertion that it's the reason why the Linear Guild loses more often than Xykon and Redcloak.

DarrenLocke

2012-03-10, 11:37 AM

That being a group that consists of Nale, Sabine, Thog, Xykon, and Redcloak now? Just so we can fix the goalposts.

Don't get smart with me. I said Major/Recurring. Which means major and/or recurring. Not merely Major and Recurring.

I doubt there are many on the forum who'd argue Tarquin isn't considered a Major Villain. He hasn't been around long enough to be technically recurring.

This is a claim that requires support, not merely assertion.

Just look at this entire forum! Heck, this exact thread! How many OoTS fans love to post and speculate on the power and might of Xykon and Redcloak and Tarquin? Folks love them! And it's because they don't lose very often. And when they do lose, or win, it's an important occasion.

Eat caviar for every meal, and suddenly it's a lot less exotic...

Kish

2012-03-10, 11:51 AM

Don't get smart with me. I said Major/Recurring. Which means major and/or recurring. Not merely Major and Recurring.

Who are they? Names?

Just look at this entire forum! Heck, this exact thread!
I look at the forum and the thread, and I see...someone who is still offering only assertion, not support.

DarrenLocke

2012-03-10, 11:54 AM

{Scrubbed}

Chaotic Queen

2012-03-10, 11:57 AM

How did we get from "Nale is a retard," to "The definition of a major villain"?

DarrenLocke

2012-03-10, 12:02 PM

How did we get from "Nale is a retard," to "The definition of a major villain"?

:smallbiggrin:

It is kinda funny how topics wander, huh?

Augmental

2012-03-10, 03:16 PM

Just look at this entire forum! Heck, this exact thread! How many OoTS fans love to post and speculate on the power and might of Xykon and Redcloak and Tarquin? Folks love them! And it's because they don't lose very often. And when they do lose, or win, it's an important occasion.

I'd say the reason people love Xykon, Redcloak, and Tarquin (in a heterosexual way, of course) is because of their humor, depth, and the fact that they're awesome in general.

rbetieh

2012-03-10, 03:39 PM

Just realised: Nale is comparable to Sylvester in looney tunes.

Wrong looney toons character. He is lampshaded to be Wil E Coyote (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) But on the bright side for Nale, this means that even a direct disintegrate to the face can't kill him.

LadyEowyn

2012-03-10, 03:56 PM

Nale and the LG have faced the Order on three occasions and ended up captured at the end of each of those encounters. Xykon and Redcloak haven't had a full-out defeat as of yet - at worse the heroes have had pyrrhic victories against them (having to destroy gates); even the loss of the phylactery was only a delay, and that time V and O-Chul only survived because of the MitD.

Taking a closer look at the Linear Guild:
- Round 1: Nale only survives because Elan is "the Good twin, not the Neutral twin." If our heroes were a bit less heroic (even just on a Batman Begins level), that would have been the end of the LG right there.
- Round 2: The druid's pretty tough, but Pompey is incompetent; Nale's painfully bad at infiltration, and only goes undiscovered because the Order is distracted, Haley has a pile of emotional issues and the Order is being unusually dense; and Nale fails to consider that leaving the child-like Thog with the Order member (Elan) with the highest Charisma might backfire.
- Round 3: Nale continues the kobold theme against Belkar despite the fact that Belkar dispatched the previous two easily, and uses a low-intelligence fighter against a high-intelligence fighter ("countering their skill with our incompetence", as he noted on an earlier occasion).

His plans are always convoluted, always unsuccessful, and he's always upstaged by - and survives because of - more skilled villains (Xykon's attack on Azure City for Round 2; Tarquin's co-optation for Round 3).

LordVader

2012-03-10, 04:05 PM

Nale and the LG have faced the Order on three occasions and ended up captured at the end of each of those encounters. Xykon and Redcloak haven't had a full-out defeat as of yet - at worse the heroes have had pyrrhic victories against them (having to destroy gates); even the loss of the phylactery was only a delay, and that time V and O-Chul only survived because of the MitD.
If I may present an alternate interpretation of the various rounds:

- Round 1: Nale only survives because Elan is "the Good twin, not the Neutral twin." If our heroes were a bit less heroic (even just on a Batman Begins level), that would have been the end of the LG right there.

Round 1: Nale's plan is only foiled by the fact that Roy had literally received divine intervention in his favor, telling him exactly what he needed to do in order to beat Nale.

- Round 2: The druid's pretty tough, but Pompey is incompetent; Nale's painfully bad at infiltration, and only goes undiscovered because the Order is distracted, Haley has a pile of emotional issues and the Order is being unusually dense; and Nale fails to consider that leaving the child-like Thog with the Order member (Elan) with the highest Charisma might backfire.

Round 2: The Linear Guild only loses the actual fight due to literal divine intervention once more, despite the fact that Nale and Thog weren't even trying to defeat the Order.

- Round 3: Nale continues the kobold theme against Belkar despite the fact that Belkar dispatched the previous two easily, and uses a low-intelligence fighter against a high-intelligence fighter ("countering their skill with our incompetence", as he noted on an earlier occasion)..

Round 3: The fight is in the Linear Guild's favor, with Sabine and Nale finishing off Elan and Durkon, until Malack arrives and tips the scales decisively in the Order's favor.

The Order typically wins through some kind of outside help or dramatic advice, which is to be expected; the Linear Guild are the villains, after all.

Jaros

2012-03-10, 04:29 PM

and uses a low-intelligence fighter against a high-intelligence fighter ("countering their skill with our incompetence", as he noted on an earlier occasion).

Oh come on, it's not like that fight was a cakewalk for Roy.

LadyEowyn

2012-03-10, 04:34 PM

When the people you're fighting have a cleric, "divine intervention" is really something you should plan for.

rbetieh

2012-03-10, 04:40 PM

thereaper

2012-03-10, 10:11 PM

I wouldn't exactly call Nale an idiot, but he is incompetent.

Despite having overwhelming tactical advantages every time, Nale always loses. Yes, our heroes always have the advantage of luck, but all that really does is negate the aforementioned tactical advantages. In the end, Nale still fails against people known to be incompetent. If your plans are failing every time against incompetent yet lucky people, then you are incompetent.

MyNameIsSecret

2012-03-10, 10:21 PM

When the people you're fighting have a cleric, "divine intervention" is really something you should plan for.

Clerics just gain their spells from their deity. This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html) is divine intervention - the spell didn't do what is was suppost to do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html) - Thor directly intervened.

And the other intervention (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) didn't have anything to do with their cleric.

LordVader

2012-03-11, 02:27 AM

When the people you're fighting have a cleric, "divine intervention" is really something you should plan for.

Yes, "divine intervention" within the context of clerics casting spells granted by their deities.

In the case of Weather Control, it was literal divine intervention in that the spell did something it was never meant to do. Durkon got practically the equivalent of a Miracle in that fight.

I wouldn't exactly call Nale an idiot, but he is incompetent.

Despite having overwhelming tactical advantages every time, Nale always loses. Yes, our heroes always have the advantage of luck, but all that really does is negate the aforementioned tactical advantages. In the end, Nale still fails against people known to be incompetent. If your plans are failing every time against incompetent yet lucky people, then you are incompetent.

To be fair, the Order themselves are not incompetent as a whole.

Elan and Belkar are cripplingly incompetent, but as for the rest of the party, V and Roy are entirely competent bar the occasional goof-up, while Haley and Durkon tend to be competent on a fairly regular basis.

ti'esar

2012-03-11, 02:32 AM

And even Elan and Belkar (though it's a recent development for the former) are fairly competent in combat. The Order are not the highest-functioning heroes ever, but neither are they the band of bumbling fools some people on here make them out to be.

veti

2012-03-11, 05:23 AM

Nale's biggest problem is that, on a subconscious level, he knows he's going to lose. Whether it's latent genre-savviness or sense of drama, there's no doubt that Nale knows that, in setting himself up as a villain, he is setting himself up to fail.

Compare Tarquin's bulll-droppings about how Elan is destined to defeat him, but not yet because it's not the dramatically appropriate time yet. Tarquin realises (or pretends to) the dramatic necessity, but he makes sure his comeuppance is deep in the comfortably distant future. Nale, however, is forever making plans that require he be defeated right now.

The most telling moment in Nale's character arc is when he refuses to employ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html) someone who might actually give him an edge, because the kid has just explained that he's always the centre of the action.

Now, the egocentric Nale might quite consistently say "I'm not being upstaged by some snot-nosed mockney urchin, get out of here kid". The overly-complicated-planning Nale might say "You'd be a loose cannon, I need someone who can follow orders". But the grounds he gives are quite different: "When it comes to being tagonists, we're more 'an', while you're pretty clearly 'pro'."

He's not talking about alignment, he's talking about roles. Larry Gardner's role is to defeat the enemy, and that's why he doesn't belong in the Linear Guild.

Dwy

2012-03-11, 08:40 AM

Nale plans are traditionally 2-part plans. Befriend heroes to get item/Betray heroes and win. Dump Elan in jail/Kill rest of Order. Get captured by Dad/???

You know, I'm really looking forwards to step 2 of this one, now that he'll be out there with both Tarquin and Elan. Not sure why, but I'm expecting a crowning moment.

Jay R

2012-03-11, 11:40 AM

My point being: Out of the Major/Recurring Villains, the Linear Guild have had more personal mono-a-mono/face-to-face/sword-to-sword encounters with the OoTS than the others that have resulted in defeat. This is to preserve the dramatic effect of the other Major/Recurring Villains.

I'm certainly far more comfortable with this version that with the original "The Linear Guild, narratively speaking, loses battles so the other Villains don't have to."

They didn't lose in strip 70 so that Xykon wouldn't have to lose in 115, since Xykon did lose in 115. They lost so that the immediate threat they represented could be stopped. And they escaped so that they can try again.

And other villains do lose, as has been documented. That's why you had to add on the "Major/Recurring" modifier to the original statement.

The Linear Guild are not the main villain group; they are personal rivals of the PCs. They do not represent the threat to the world that the OotS are trying to stop; they are a series of difficulties encountered along the way. Gollum, not Sauron. Draco Malfoy, not Voldemort. Captain Love, not Montero (or, if you're older, Sergeant Garcia, not the Alcalde). Levasseur, not Colonel Bishop. Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, not King Claudius. Vizzini, Inigo and Fezzik, not Prince Humperdink.

thereaper

2012-03-11, 01:41 PM

Yes, "divine intervention" within the context of clerics casting spells granted by their deities.

In the case of Weather Control, it was literal divine intervention in that the spell did something it was never meant to do. Durkon got practically the equivalent of a Miracle in that fight.

To be fair, the Order themselves are not incompetent as a whole.

Elan and Belkar are cripplingly incompetent, but as for the rest of the party, V and Roy are entirely competent bar the occasional goof-up, while Haley and Durkon tend to be competent on a fairly regular basis.

Roy is consistently competent. Haley used to be staggeringly incompetent by her own admission (though in the last few hundred strips this has changed significantly). Durkon and V are both quite incompetent, and get by only because of their immense power. Durkon never has the right spells prepared, and V has extreme difficulty using his spells properly.

LordVader

2012-03-11, 03:47 PM

Roy is consistently competent. Haley used to be staggeringly incompetent by her own admission (though in the last few hundred strips this has changed significantly). Durkon and V are both quite incompetent, and get by only because of their immense power. Durkon never has the right spells prepared, and V has extreme difficulty using his spells properly.

I'm curious, what makes you say V is incompetent? Take a look at the battle of Azure City, for example. V had all the right spells prepared.

Valyrian

2012-03-11, 03:53 PM

:redcloak: Is a master manipulator who let's Xykon think he's the one in charge.
Xykon is the one in charge.

Apparently Redcloak is such a good manipulator that he can even delude himself.

ti'esar

2012-03-11, 03:56 PM

I'm curious, what makes you say V is incompetent? Take a look at the battle of Azure City, for example. V had all the right spells prepared.

Well, a Cloudkill or the like in the breach would have done a lot of good. But it's not like that was an option, and while V's barred schools are questionable, I wouldn't use them to call her "incompetent".

CharityB

2012-03-11, 04:03 PM

Durkon isn't that bad. He solved the adventure in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), and saves Hinjo here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html).

Jay R

2012-03-11, 04:07 PM

Xykon is the one in charge.

Apparently Redcloak is such a good manipulator that he can even delude himself.

Certainly Xykon is in charge. Specifically, he has spent the last thirty years in charge of a grand mission to control a gate, which will only serve the Dark One, not Xykon. He's been doing that because Redcloak, a priest of the Dark One, has convinced Xykon otherwise.

Surely Redcloak gets some manipulation points for that.

LordVader

2012-03-11, 04:10 PM

Well, a Cloudkill or the like in the breach would have done a lot of good. But it's not like that was an option, and while V's barred schools are questionable, I wouldn't use them to call her "incompetent".

Yeah. Consider, also, stuff like V instructing Elan in the efficient use of illusions. I'd rank V as one of the most consistently competent members of the party.

Remember, just because V's not min-maxing his character build to the utmost doesn't make him incompetent. If we were judging character builds, Roy would be incompetent based solely on the fact that he rolled a fighter.

ti'esar

2012-03-11, 06:42 PM

Yeah. Consider, also, stuff like V instructing Elan in the efficient use of illusions. I'd rank V as one of the most consistently competent members of the party.

Remember, just because V's not min-maxing his character build to the utmost doesn't make him incompetent. If we were judging character builds, Roy would be incompetent based solely on the fact that he rolled a fighter.

V was definitely an idiot in her soul-spliced fight with Xykon, but I think we can give that one something of a pass.

Oakianus

2012-03-11, 08:34 PM

thereaper

2012-03-11, 10:21 PM

Durkon isn't that bad. He solved the adventure in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), and saves Hinjo here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html).

Oh, Durkon saves the day quite often (take Cliffport, for example). That doesn't make him competent. It makes him powerful. The fact that he never has the right spell prepared is practically a stealth running joke.

I'm curious, what makes you say V is incompetent? Take a look at the battle of Azure City, for example. V had all the right spells prepared.

His focus on blasting (one of the things his class is least effective at) to the exclusion of all else. He has been getting better recently, but the fact remains that he consistently makes inefficient use of his arcane power.

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-11, 10:27 PM

His focus on blasting (one of the things his class is least effective at) to the exclusion of all else. He has been getting better recently, but the fact remains that he consistently makes inefficient use of his arcane power.
A Wizard can be very effective at blasting. It's blasting that's less effective than other things a Wizard might be doing, not the Wizard that is bad at blasting.

Jay R

2012-03-12, 01:25 PM

There's no point trying to decide which characters are least effective or competent, when there is no agreement on what effective or competent means.

rbetieh

2012-03-12, 01:41 PM

There's no point trying to decide which characters are least effective or competent, when there is no agreement on what effective or competent means.

I would say V sometimes suffers from the Worf Effect. All that power, but when you need to show how overwhelmed the heroes are, V takes it to the nose. Azure City invasion, Battle vs Xykon. The other problem is his magic tends to backfire, so even when he wins he loses. This is a person who believes that magic can solve any problem that has been placed into situations where magic can't solve the problem or magic creates more problems than it solves. It's her folly, everyone else uses magic as a tool (including Nale) magic is away of life for V.

Fish

2012-03-12, 02:05 PM

Narratively speaking, a truly competent wizard with good use of all his spells would be dull to read about and probably hog the spotlight.

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-12, 02:07 PM

BaronOfHell

2012-03-12, 02:20 PM

This thread has given me a new Insane Fan Theory
Great! Any new creative input is very welco...

Nale kills Redcloak
Okay, I guess. It's very unlikely Nale could take down Redcloak, but not completely impossib..

then uses UMD to wear the Crimson Mantle
Now wait just a moment, that's not possible, the dark one wouldn't sha..

gets the Snarl completely under his control.
Have you even read this comic??

And then, of course, screws the whole thing up somehow.
Okay you clearly have been reading this comic.:smallbiggrin:

rbetieh

2012-03-12, 02:24 PM

Picking a nit, but magic is also a way of life for Xykon. He says as much in SoD.

Fair enough, I don't have access to SoD so I have missed a few details. That being said, allow me to offer my succinct (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) retort (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html).

Bavarian itP

2012-03-12, 02:40 PM

This thread has given me a new Insane Fan Theory - Nale kills Redcloak and then uses UMD to wear the Crimson Mantle and gets the Snarl completely under his control. And then, of course, screws the whole thing up somehow.

- hilarious
- depending on the incompetence of, well, everyone
- anti-climatic

Sounds like a job for 8-bit theater (http://www.nuklearpower.com/) :smallbiggrin:

Krim

2012-03-13, 06:17 AM

Does it, though? He's pretty good at swordplay, and he has used charm person and suggestion several times to his advantage. In fact, a lot of his plans have come pretty close to success - the Order was on the ropes in the EoB, and he wasn't even prepared, then.

He's a pathetic villain, yes, but it's more often than not due to acts of gods rather than his own plans having flaws.

He still can't fight Roy (as in, will go down without scratching him), got owned by Elan in Hand to hand, got blasted to bits by a single lighting bolt by V, will go straight down to 4 HP if Harm is used on him. Using Charm on Belkar was a great move, granted (because, otherwise, he probably had two rounds to live, tops), but all things considered, he is a pretty weak character.

Let's also not forget that his plan to infiltrate the OotS as Elan was saying 17 times "I'm Elan!", and that he decided to hang around Tarquin and Malack when he had like, 20 HP. Nale might be smart and make nice plans, but, in the moment of truth, he's utterly incompetent.

oppyu

2012-03-13, 06:35 AM

He still can't fight Roy (as in, will go down without scratching him), got owned by Elan in Hand to hand, got blasted to bits by a single lighting bolt by V, will go straight down to 4 HP if Harm is used on him. Using Charm on Belkar was a great move, granted (because, otherwise, he probably had two rounds to live, tops), but all things considered, he is a pretty weak character.

Let's also not forget that his plan to infiltrate the OotS as Elan was saying 17 times "I'm Elan!", and that he decided to hang around Tarquin and Malack when he had like, 20 HP. Nale might be smart and make nice plans, but, in the moment of truth, he's utterly incompetent.
Nale's not weak, he's a support unit. Sort of like Haley; he's useful in non-combat situations like planning, and as a combat support, but comes up short in 1v1 battles. Good at using his brain to escape though, as shown vs Belkar and Elan.

As for 'I'm Elan!', I think he used his sizeable mental faculties to determine that repeating his name 17 times is very in-character for Elan. As for the Tarquin/Malack thing... well, he may have had a plan yet to be revealed, or his ego may have gotten in the way again.

Gitman00

2012-03-13, 11:57 AM

I think Nale could take a page from Parson Gotti's book on strategy: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0137.html

The problem is, Nale's plans are too rigid, and they rely too much on his enemies behaving how he expects them to. So when something happens that he wasn't expecting, he's got nothing. Even worse, his ego won't allow him to admit this weakness, even to himself, so he goes on believing his plans are flawless until they blow up in his face.

Chaotic Queen

2012-03-13, 05:29 PM

skaddix

2012-03-13, 07:53 PM

I would say V sometimes suffers from the Worf Effect. All that power, but when you need to show how overwhelmed the heroes are, V takes it to the nose. Azure City invasion, Battle vs Xykon. The other problem is his magic tends to backfire, so even when he wins he loses. This is a person who believes that magic can solve any problem that has been placed into situations where magic can't solve the problem or magic creates more problems than it solves. It's her folly, everyone else uses magic as a tool (including Nale) magic is away of life for V.

That is not the worf effect.
Worf Effect: Want a quick way to show how dangerous one of your unknown characters is? Simple, make him win a fight or score points against a character that the audience already knows is tough. This establishes him as willing to fight and marks him as sufficiently dangerous.

Azure Invasion she was pretty impressive but ran out of spells.
Xykon was already shown to plenty dangerous especially if u read Start of Darkness but even then he was already established as the Big Bad and had just killed Roy. V was also not thinking straight so really not worf effect.

Mr. Pants

2012-03-14, 02:41 PM

I had Nale and Elan challenge each other to a trivia show, guess who won.:smallbiggrin:

Kish

2012-03-14, 05:34 PM

In other words, Nale's Batman Gambits keep exploding in his face.
As the gambits of any D&D character who thinks he's Batman should.

Snails

2012-03-14, 10:38 PM

The problem is, Nale's plans are too rigid, and they rely too much on his enemies behaving how he expects them to. So when something happens that he wasn't expecting, he's got nothing. Even worse, his ego won't allow him to admit this weakness, even to himself, so he goes on believing his plans are flawless until they blow up in his face.

It is a little worse than that. Flaws in his plans that his enemies are supposed to be too incompetent to exploit are good things in Nale's eyes -- they make the "inevitable" victory all the sweeter. So a plan that looks like it might fall completely apart is not going to get changed so that it is safer, ever, even when the growing danger signs are right under his nose.

Do not get me wrong: I like Nale. As others have said, he is an amusing personal enemy. There for laughs. Has little to do with the big picture. Without his father's supervision, even making an attempt on a Gate would be laughable.