3.X Best/Preferred Gish spells

[herrhauptmann]

A couple years back I was working on a swiftblade and was having trouble picking spells. I'd noticed that most gish threads and handbooks looked like someone grabbed their favorite spells for the God or Batman wizard and put them in EK/Swiftblade/Arcane Archer handbook.

So between that, and the fact that I was getting tired of digging around in an old thread from 2009 whenever I wanted to give gish spell advice, I'm making this thread.

Rationale:
As a gish, whatever flavor you might be, your spells are intended to make you better at combat. As much as you may enjoy flinging spells, the fact is that you spent too much time swinging a sword to be as good as the party mage. So your spells tended not to be as effective.
Remember how after clearing a few dungeons, you finally managed the basics of spell casting? And how excited you were to finally learn the sleep and glitterdust spells that your friend and tutor had been using to such great effect against those kobolds and goblins? Remember how embarrassing it was to realize that by the time you could use those basic spells, your enemies were too powerful for them to work? :smalleek:

As a warrior mage, spellsword, spellblade, whatever you wish to call yourself. You are a warrior who has more tricks than just how well you can throw a moulinet or rising flat snap.
Your spells should be focused on making you a better warrior. Or sometimes to get yourself out of a tight spot. Not getting into arcane duels with the master of a wizards college. No matter how enjoyable they may be.


So here's a few spells I got from a swiftblade handbook, and edited by ShneekeytheLost.

1st Level Spells:
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerveskitter (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Fist of Stone (CArc)
Mage Armor as an abjuration spell.
Enlarge Person (PHB)


2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)
Luminous Armor (BoED good preparation casters only)


3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)
Greater Mage Armor (SC)

4th Level Spells:
Greater Luminous Armor (BoED good preparation casters only)
Dimension Door (PHB)
Polymorph (PHB)

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Teleport (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)

7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)
TL,DR:
Does anyone have suggestions for other good gish spells?
Anyone willing to chime in on the rationale they use in selecting spells for their gishes?

[NeoSeraphi]

The celerity spells from the PHB II are as good for a gish as they are for any other caster.

Enlarge person is not a 2nd level spell.

Greater mage armor is nice, for the same reasons mage armor is nice (3rd level spell, Spell Compendium)

Stoneskin is good. Bite of the were-x is also great.

Check out this class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212289), but only pay attention to the spell list. I put a lot of time and effort into choosing the best spells for each level.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Enlarge Person is 1st level.

I don't see how Disintegrate is better for them than any other blasting spell. Other than being in the school that has most of the buffs.

Maze and Solid Fog and Acid Fog give you buff time.

[herrhauptmann]

Fixed enlarge person, thank you both.

I'm not sure bite of X is all that useful. A couple grant bonus feats like blindfight, which can be very useful. But all the extra attacks and multiattack doesn't do much without sneak attack. Though the stat boosts are pretty nice.
I'll think about it and probably add one or two in the morning. LIkely werebear and tiger.

I think the rationale behind disintegrate was that you could use it to rid of obstacles like walls of force or several cubic feet of wall at once. Rather than trying to go around or over them.

I'm not so sure stoneskin is useful. DR 10/adamant? As a gish, that'll probably come around level 9 or 10. So most enemies (in my limited experience at that level) just blow right through it. Though 15 hits and 10 minutes/level means it should last at least 2 fights depending on party tactics.


Neoseraphi,
I'll hit your class in the morning. I'll need to go through it line by line picking sorc/wiz spells out of the list. I know I saw a few paladin spells in there. (To me, gishes are arcane only, never divine. So that's where I'm grabbing spells from)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The various Bite of the Werecreature spells, especially if Persistent.

Swift Expeditious Retreat (1st, only if Persistent)
Nightshield (1st, only if Persistent)

Swift Fly (2nd, only if Persistent)
Whirling Blade (2nd, preferably Quickened after a Leap Attack)
Wings of Cover (2nd, Sorcerer only)
Bladeweave (2nd, only if Persistent)
Alter Self (2nd)
Bull's Strength (2nd)
Animalistic Power (2nd, with Ability Enhancer from Dragon Compendium)

Phantom Steed (3rd)
Melf's Unicorn Arrow (3rd, only if you have Fighter 2 with Dungeoncrasher)
Displacement (3rd, only if Persistent)
Magic Circle (3rd, only if Persistent)

Draconic Polymorph (5th, especially Persistent)
Cloudkill (5th, only if you have Spellsword 4+)

Greater Resistance (4th) or Superior Resistance (6th)

Freezing Fog (6th)

I'm tired of typing these.

Edit: Heart of Water, Heart of Earth, and maybe the other two, all in CM.

[Mystify]

Fixed enlarge person, thank you both.

I'm not sure bite of X is all that useful. A couple grant bonus feats like blindfight, which can be very useful. But all the extra attacks and multiattack doesn't do much without sneak attack. Though the stat boosts are pretty nice.
I'll think about it and probably add one or two in the morning. LIkely werebear and tiger.

I think the rationale behind disintegrate was that you could use it to rid of obstacles like walls of force or several cubic feet of wall at once. Rather than trying to go around or over them.

I'm not so sure stoneskin is useful. DR 10/adamant? As a gish, that'll probably come around level 9 or 10. So most enemies (in my limited experience at that level) just blow right through it. Though 15 hits and 10 minutes/level means it should last at least 2 fights depending on party tactics.


Neoseraphi,
I'll hit your class in the morning. I'll need to go through it line by line picking sorc/wiz spells out of the list. I know I saw a few paladin spells in there. (To me, gishes are arcane only, never divine. So that's where I'm grabbing spells from)
DR 10 won't make you invicible by nay means, but it can easily add up to a lot of extra health. At level 10, if you take a single blow, then you effectively have as much extra health as +2 con.

Bite of X are great buffs. The enchantment bonuses to your stats are very considerable, far outstripping what items would give you. I don't understand why you think more attacks isn't good. You are either making 1 attack anyways , in which case the lost iterative don't matter, or you are full rounding, in which case the multiattack sequence will be much more accurate than your iteratives. Esp. since you probably have less than full BaB as a gish.
Just look at bite of the werebear. +16 str. +8 con. +7 Na. What do you want from a buff spell?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bite of the Werecreature can be Persisted with various shenanigans, namely Incantatrix.

Heart of Earth > Stoneskin in every way.

[JadePhoenix]

Primal Instinct and Ferocity of Sanguine Blood are two good gish spells that are often overlooked.
Also, Wings of Cover.

[Hirax]

Heroics, 2nd level, 10 minutes/level, get a fighter bonus feat that you qualify for per casting.
Greater mighty wallop, 3rd level, hours/level, increase effective size of bludgeoning weapon by 1 size per 4 CL, to a maximum of colossal.

[Ernir]

Critical Strike (SpC) is a nice "Hmm, I don't know what to do with this swift action and this 1st level slot..." spell.
Blood Wind (SpC) is win if you have natural weapons. Like, say, if you might get the wild idea to Polymorph.
Balor Nimbus (SpC) makes for a hilarious low-level grappler.

Body of War (SpC) renders you incapable of casting spells, but your familiar won't mind.
Elemental Body (SpC) provides immunities that are very handy in melee.

Grease (PHB)
Disintegrate (PHB)
Mage Armor as an abjuration spell.
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)
Gate (PHB)

These are all good spells.

They are also cross-role when playing a gish. :smallconfused:


I'm not sure bite of X is all that useful. A couple grant bonus feats like blindfight, which can be very useful. But all the extra attacks and multiattack doesn't do much without sneak attack. Though the stat boosts are pretty nice.
Pretty nice?

"You gain a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength, a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, a +8 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +7 enhancement bonus to natural armor."
And that is in addition to the feats and attacks, which aren't exactly useless.

Your gish can read that and not be prepared to sell his soul for it? How high are your enhancement bonuses? :smalleek:

[Essence_of_War]

Trollshape is a pretty sweet way to get regeneration. And it is allowable in most games that balk at polymorph and associated shennanigans.

As others have mentioned, the Heart of X line is wonderful, and if you only use Heart of Earth to make a way better stoneskin you're getting serious value.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm a big fan of Greater Mirror Image (4th, PHB2) if only because of the immediate action. It grows old like its lesser version, but I still love it.

I'd wouldn't grab every single spell in the Bite of the Were-X line, but I would definitely have a few of them. Wererat is the lowest at 3rd level and comes with a +6 enhancement bonus to DEX, so you either want to quicken it at higher levels or use metamagic reducers on Persistent Spell and have it effectively replace your Gloves of Dexterity.

Heroics (2nd, SpC) needs to be mentioned. It's an amazing buff spell for any arcane caster, but most gish builds have awkward spots in their level progression where their feats are all caster boosts (Extend Spell, other metamagics, reducers, practiced spellcaster), are meeting pre-reqs (Combat Casting, early entry feats), or are fightin' feats (Power Attack, Arcane Strike, etc.).

While it's not a permanent solution without heavy metamagic shenanigans like Echoing Repeated Heroics or Persistent Spell, it does allow you to trade 2nd level spells for Fighter Bonus feats for 10 min/level and get more than the normally allowed Martial Study/Stance limits as you can just blow the spell directly for which maneuver(s) you want to learn that day.

[eggs]

Your gish can read that and not be prepared to sell his soul for it? How high are your enhancement bonuses? :smalleek:
Enhancement bonuses mean the low-level versions don't do much.

Rounds/level durations mean that unless you can Quicken, Persist or Spellsurge the high-level buffs, casting them is often just bad tactics.

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@OP
Gishes have a harsh action economy, making spells like the Spell Matrices, Contingency, Celerity, the Arcane Fusions and Arcane Spellsurge invaluable.

Swift and Immediate buffs are often particularly useful-especially to Persist-users - things like Wraithstrike, Hunter's Eye, Swift Fly, Greater Mirror Image, possibly the Karmic backlash spells.

Long-duration buffs like Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop, the Heart of X line, Elemental Body, Girallon's Blessing, Magic Circle against X, Greater Enlarge, Overland Flight and persistent personal buffs like Shield and Wraithstrike are often especially useful in both action economy and in spell slot conservation.

Quickened low-level buffs are often more valuable than more powerful high level spells because they can be used without interfering with an attack routine (offensive buffs are useless if casting them doesn't have a positive damage return; many buffs can even be detrimental, if casting them buys your opponents time to do terrible things to the party).