Forcing Creativity

[Mari01]

How balanced would a game be if the core PHB classes were banned outside of Paladin and Ranger? Are there enough variants of each Wizard (Beguiler, Dread Necro, Warmage) for example, that there isn't any base that could potentially be covered? I'm just wondering, but if the general consensus is positive, it could be implemented on my turn to DM.

[Black_Zawisza]

Personally, I would rather encourage players to play non-PHB classes than force them to. I know that I've been a little annoyed whenever my DM has banned things fairly arbitrarily. It isn't a great way to start a game, IMO.

[Flickerdart]

I banned almost everything once (ToM, ToB, Psionics, Warlocks, DFIs and Dragon Shamans were the only base classes allowed). It worked out pretty well.

[Averis Vol]

it gets rid of a few T1's, which is really nice. an idea i'v been entertaining is to just ban PHB spells, so people could still play their favorite classes, just without as much game breaking.

but yes, i condone this game style.

[Zaq]

I banned almost everything once (ToM, ToB, Psionics, Warlocks, DFIs and Dragon Shamans were the only base classes allowed). It worked out pretty well.

In a similar vein, I once banned all arcane and divine casters (yes, even Rangers and Paladins and other half-casters) in an effort to encourage my group to branch out into ToB/ToM/Psionics/Incarnum, which some of them had previously been leery about. It worked.

[kardar233]

How balanced would a game be if the core PHB classes were banned outside of Paladin and Ranger? Are there enough variants of each Wizard (Beguiler, Dread Necro, Warmage) for example, that there isn't any base that could potentially be covered? I'm just wondering, but if the general consensus is positive, it could be implemented on my turn to DM.

I'd keep the Bard and the Barbarian. Both are balanced, and without them a number of interesting prestige classes wouldn't be available (Bear Warrior, Runescarred Berserker, War Chanter, etc.)

[Rhaegar14]

How balanced would a game be if the core PHB classes were banned outside of Paladin and Ranger? Are there enough variants of each Wizard (Beguiler, Dread Necro, Warmage) for example, that there isn't any base that could potentially be covered? I'm just wondering, but if the general consensus is positive, it could be implemented on my turn to DM.

You'd have problems with the spellcasting priest archetype without a Cleric, and a similar problem with Druids. Other than that, I don't foresee any issues.

[kardar233]

The Healer and Spirit Shaman are still available. Wildshape ranger is in for people who want to shapeshift. Those are mostly covered.

[Hirax]

Archivists everywhere cheer and start printing recruiting fliers!

[Rain Dragon]

Particularly with newer players, it's harder for them to take in a whole lot of information so they sometimes end up just sticking with the class(es) they've always played. While players might feel upset, irritated or try to start some drama such restrictions can actually help them look at all the other options and think to themselves 'hey this is awesome and new!'. While it should rarely be forced on them, it can sometimes be a very good thing.

As far as balance, I honestly haven't played or DM'd long enough with people who min-max I wouldn't know. There is a lot of content out there for different classes though, and creating a new one isn't entirely out of the question (though it takes almost too much work sometimes and is harder to figure out where overpowered or underpowered really is! :smallfrown:).

Good luck with your game by the by!

[Cor1]

Huh? I can break any campaign whatever with just the Expanded Psionics Handbook, Complete Psionic, and Magic of Incarnum. Who's up for Triple 9s all day erry day? That's Cor1's pet Erudite build/combo, that's who. Oh, and, "cover all bases" - okay, Erudite is Thrallherd, first Cohort-like is a Master of Nine who does errything in the Tome of Battle (and only because of no Frenzied Berserker, which is better).
"Banning core for broken stuff", why? There exists SO much worse.


Seriously - if you want to encourage creativity, what you want is not "unique builds", you want creativity from the characters, in-game. And there is NOTHING more open to creativity than "anything that accesses Minor Creation, Major Creation and True Creation".

Psion Shapers, Clerics with Creation and/or Artifice domains, Conjurer Wizards.
There is no limit to creative uses of "I conjure up anything I can think of out of thin air". It's only limited by how much of anything can be created. And the player's creativity.

[Jodah]

I, for one, endorse banning things only so far as they support the world as a whole. I will ban magic, but endorse psionics, in my current campaign, because of the structure of the world being that way. I banned binder for awhile because it didn't make sense in my world (there would be no way for vestiges to have existed).

I have been around people who ban BoED, ToB, ToM, etc for various "broken" issues. This type of banning is just annoying, because they allow things that are verifiably broken but get rid of things that are well balanced.

[Aergoth]

Banning things because they're "broken" leads to drama and butt-hurt.

Banning things because "I don't like/want X, Y and Z" is less liable to do that.

And I find it more interesting to build characters in T2/T3 classes then T1.

[Mari01]

Nothings being banned because of brokenness. But the idea of psionics only or no arcane is very interesting. I'm bored seeing the same thing over and over again. Also, I can't believe I overlooked the Bard and Barbarian. Even something as simple as T2 or lower only would draw ire. Especially from one person in particular. Cleric is all he does. 9/10 are cleric who specialize in pumping AC as high as possible. It gets stale.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I've also considered banning the PHB races and classes (because as much as Tolkien has influenced role-playing games, I just don't want to set a game in Middle Earth). Judging from some of the responses in this thread from people who have tried it, it works out pretty well.

The big concern, of course, is what you do for healing. There are several variant rules, like the Reserve Points variant, which can help you work around that. You can also just give the party healing items and have that be their exhaustable resource while dungeon crawling.

[Tyndmyr]

How balanced would a game be if the core PHB classes were banned outside of Paladin and Ranger? Are there enough variants of each Wizard (Beguiler, Dread Necro, Warmage) for example, that there isn't any base that could potentially be covered? I'm just wondering, but if the general consensus is positive, it could be implemented on my turn to DM.

Last campaign I finished running was entirely non-core except for prerequisite feats and skills. Rules came from Rules Compendium, all classes, races, etc came from elsewhere.

Totally doable.

Im also going to point out that non core healing options are...plentiful. I wouldn't sweat that.

[nedz]

What, you banned monk ?:smallbiggrin:

Seriously now: applying some discipline on chargen can promote creativity. If you get it wrong however then you will end up with angry players.
The trick is to

Know what you are doing.
Be upfront about the houserules. Best of all publish them before chargen.

[Snowbluff]

I banned almost everything once (ToM, ToB, Psionics, Warlocks, DFIs and Dragon Shamans were the only base classes allowed). It worked out pretty well.

Nice, I'd like to hear some anecdotes of that sometime. I've actually started my first PSI earlier this week. ^^


it gets rid of a few T1's, which is really nice. an idea i'v been entertaining is to just ban PHB spells, so people could still play their favorite classes, just without as much game breaking.

but yes, i condone this game style.

Yeah, no PHB bans like, 3 of the 6(?) T1s. Mi piace.

[Mari01]

This has gotten some really good responses. So then how about a consensus of getting rid of just the tier ones? All of them. Doable? I'm one of the two people who introduced Healing Belts into the group. I'm sure if we did some digging we could replace just about everything. Although I did notice something: Beguiler(Illusion/Enchantment), Warmage(Evocation), Dread Necro(Necromancy). Am I missing the spontaneous version of divination, conjuration, and transmutation? Perhaps that's the Sorcerer's ticket on those school.

[nedz]

Removing the T1s is a common idea on this forum.
There are spontaneous versions of the Cleric and Druid in UA/SRD - that still leaves wildshape to deal with, but there's a fix for that.

What about removing Vancian Casting entirely ?
It has its fans, but it would force a change of style.
You'd have to fix the half casters, maybe make them spontaneous with 1 spell known per class level - no swapping ?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Removing the T1s is a common idea on this forum.
There are spontaneous versions of the Cleric and Druid in UA/SRD - that still leaves wildshape to deal with, but there's a fix for that.

What about removing Vancian Casting entirely ?
It has its fans, but it would force a change of style.
You'd have to fix the half casters, maybe make them spontaneous with 1 spell known per class level - no swapping ?

Or your just ban wizards, clerics, and druids. Replace the cleric and druid with the favored soul (or oracle if you're using Pathfinder.) If you want to be a wizard, play a sorcerer and take the Scribe Scroll feat. If you're really serious about it, use psionics and maybe houserule in a Healing discipline or psychic warrior variant to replace the cleric's role.

The real trick of banning all of the classes is figuring out the organizations in your setting. If there aren't any wizards, does the Mage Guild turn into a club for the Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) skills? Or do you have competing guilds for each of the new arcane classes? I think a GM should seriously consider this before doing any world-building, and make sure that things play out in a way that makes sense and is constructive for the players. You may even want to ask the players to come up with the organizations that trained them.

[Rubik]

Go the T3-4 route (plus psionics), then play a game with the DM using his monsters like Tucker's Kobolds. The foes are SMART, and regular tactics (like "I run up and hit it") just don't work. Force them to use terrain, and mundane items, and tactics that impede the enemy and force them to alter the rules of the game they're playing.

Give them access to more mundane tools and take away the more powerful toys (the more powerful casters) and play smart, and they'll have to adapt or die. Ensure that they know this ahead of time.

[Snowbluff]

Go the T3-4 route (plus psionics), then play a game with the DM using his monsters like Tucker's Kobolds. The foes are SMART, and regular tactics (like "I run up and hit it") just don't work. Force them to use terrain, and mundane items, and tactics that impede the enemy and force them to alter the rules of the game they're playing.

Give them access to more mundane tools and take away the more powerful toys (the more powerful casters) and play smart, and they'll have to adapt or die. Ensure that they know this ahead of time.

Uhhh... why plus Psionics? Psi has T1 and T2 as well :P

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Uhhh... why plus Psionics? Psi has T1 and T2 as well :P

Only the erudite is tier 1, and I don't like Complete Psionic anyways. Psion is in the same boat as the sorcerer, you have a limited selection of spells but flexibility in how you cast them. And psions and wilders aren't very broken, many of the power combos they can pull off require enormous expenditure of power points ("yes, I can do this, but it'll take 3 rounds to get the ball rolling and after this fight I won't be able to do much for the rest of the day") or are based on cheesy interpretations of the rules (like psychic reformation).

[Tr011]

Whatever you do, do NOT ban the ROGUE. The roguish-style players would get pretty upset because even with all the classes out there, you always need the rogue-class at least for 1-3 levels. It's one of the few fitting 8+ skill classes, so it's perfect for level 1 and without the level 3 ACF you can't play any rogue in mid to high level campaigns.
And don't worry, anyone who plays a rogue without using 10+ books will just end up crying if his party contains any semi-optimized character.

[kardar233]

Why play a Rogue when you can play a Factotum?

[Tr011]

Why play a Rogue when you can play a Factotum?

There are lots of reasons. I.e. creativity (to get back to the topic) and flavor. I personally played a Factotum once and I didn't like it at all. I dealt not much damage, had to spend IP for anything I do and totally average at everything I did (except for skills, they were sky-high).

[sonofzeal]

I once banned all core spells. SPC was fine, Campaign-specific was fine, Dragon Mag was fine, but PHB was banned. Man that brought casters down a peg!




Why play a Rogue when you can play a Factotum?
....because you have five attacks a round and want to throw bucketfuls of d6s at anything subject to precision damage? Because you're playing a low-Int race and still want tones of skill points? Because you want unrestricted bonus feats or Skill Mastery? Because you're not planning to hit lvl 18 where you'd gain the ability to borrow those abilities? Because the character you're playing hates magic and supernatural abilities and/or wants to take the Mage Slayer line?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Whatever you do, do NOT ban the ROGUE. The roguish-style players would get pretty upset because even with all the classes out there, you always need the rogue-class at least for 1-3 levels. It's one of the few fitting 8+ skill classes, so it's perfect for level 1 and without the level 3 ACF you can't play any rogue in mid to high level campaigns.
And don't worry, anyone who plays a rogue without using 10+ books will just end up crying if his party contains any semi-optimized character.

What's wrong with the scout and ninja?

[Tr011]

What's wrong with the scout and ninja?

Scouts are no rogues at all and ninjas miss Penetrating strike. Try to play a rogue without Penetrating Strike, depending on your campaign it's no fun at all since you are useless half the fights.

[Flickerdart]

Psychic Rogue. Give up 3d6 damage in exchange for being awesome.

[Rejusu]

Nothings being banned because of brokenness. But the idea of psionics only or no arcane is very interesting. I'm bored seeing the same thing over and over again. Also, I can't believe I overlooked the Bard and Barbarian. Even something as simple as T2 or lower only would draw ire. Especially from one person in particular. Cleric is all he does. 9/10 are cleric who specialize in pumping AC as high as possible. It gets stale.

Yeah banning the whole PHB is a little over the top. Wizard, Druid, Cleric are the only real problems. What you could do instead of outright banning stuff is just lay out a campaign setting where people would want to specialise. When I next DM I'm very tempted to make it Psionics heavy and possibly focus around Illithid hunting (and limit the party to one slayer).

[Morph Bark]

If you want to balance things, you can just ban prepared casters and allow ACFs for the rest (which makes the Fighter viable for at least twice as many levels).

[Snowbluff]

Only the erudite is tier 1, and I don't like Complete Psionic anyways. Psion is in the same boat as the sorcerer, you have a limited selection of spells but flexibility in how you cast them. And psions and wilders aren't very broken, many of the power combos they can pull off require enormous expenditure of power points ("yes, I can do this, but it'll take 3 rounds to get the ball rolling and after this fight I won't be able to do much for the rest of the day") or are based on cheesy interpretations of the rules (like psychic reformation).

The same can be applied to sorcerers. Also, alot of psi stack better than arncane stuff does, like comboing Expansion and Metamorphesis, and PP makes handling meta easier than spell slots.

[Particle_Man]

I think you should have everyone be monks.

Everyone! :smallsmile:

NPCs too! No Warriors, no adepts, no commoner, no aristocrats, no experts - nothing but monks!

As well as Monsters with class levels!

Come to think of it, that would be a very lawful world, except for some classless monsters. :)