[Pathfinder] I'm dubious about the balance of astral constructs

[Nemal]

So, I'm looking at the Astral Construct power and I can't see how this is balanced.

Eyeballing it, astral constructs are about as combat-strong as the corresponding Summon Monster spell two spell levels higher.

A level 3 fighter will be slightly stronger than an astral construct you can summon at level 3, and the psion can summon, what, 4 of the things by then?

What am I missing?

[DoctorGlock]

Summon Monster has never had notable combat power, it is used for spell like abilities of summoned creatures. Astral construct just calls in a sub par melee brute.

[Nemal]

Summon Monster has never had notable combat power, it is used for spell like abilities of summoned creatures. Astral construct just calls in a sub par melee brute.

Don't most of the Summon Monster creatures lack spell like abilities, though?

Also, if AC calls a sub par melee brute, what's the par?

[Lord_Gareth]

Don't most of the Summon Monster creatures lack spell like abilities, though?

Also, if AC calls a sub par melee brute, what's the par?

Level-equivalent clerics are the par, as they have access to abilities that allow them to not only engage in melee (flight! ignore difficult terrain! Non-armor defenses!) but also enhance their ability to actually do the melee part.

Fighters and barbarians? Eh, not so much. Especially not in PF-only games, where the nice things that they had in the first place got nerfed into small blackened craters.

[DoctorGlock]

As a comparison

SMIX can call a trumpet archon, it has more HP, better movement, feats, some SLAs and casts as a 14th level cleric

ACIX has slightly more AC by the point that AC has become useless, better hit chance that might sometimes hit, and a maximum of 56 damage. That is subpar when monsters have 300-600 HP. It has no feats and gets 2 options from menu C which are generally equivalent to a single power by a 7th level caster/psion.

Down the line, most outsiders have a load of SLAs. A construct will always have a few options from a short list on top of a fragile chassis.

This is why SM line is better than AC

[Nemal]

As a comparison (...)

Ok, that's interesting to know.

How does the comparison look like by low levels, though? I'm afraid by when level 9 spells roll around I'm not going to be worried about balance, but I suspect the fighter's going to feel pretty overshadowed by the psion's summons from levels 1-7...

[Lord_Gareth]

Ok, that's interesting to know.

How does the comparison look like by low levels, though? I'm afraid by when level 9 spells roll around I'm not going to be worried about balance, but I suspect the fighter's going to feel pretty overshadowed by the psion's summons from levels 1-7...

Generally speaking, melee starts having issues at about level eight, and is essentially obsolete by level 12.

[Fax Celestis]

Don't compare to summon monster, compare to an equally leveled summoner's eidolon.

[DoctorGlock]

Probably to many variables to compare to an eidolon. Even so, it will compare unfavorably by a long shot. Huge eidolon with 8 limbs and pounce? Unfavorable. Heck, at 5th you can get large+pounce and at least 3 attacks, add some feats to boost damage. And the HP on the eidolon will be far higher, to say nothing of what a synthesist can do.

[eggs]

Why should it be equivalent?

Bards' diplomatic abilities are better than the Swordsages'. Warlocks have better flight skills than Barbarians.

Case-by-case equivalence is a terribly dull form of game balance.

EDIT:
And if you're using the Fighter as a measure for D&D balance, you're going to run into big troubles fast, any way you spin it.

[ericgrau]

Nah fighters lack versatility but the one thing they do is hit harder.

Can you really summon more than 1 astral construct? I thought 3.5 limited you to 1. Even if you can keep in mind that an action done round 3 is much weaker than an action done round 1. By then the fight's almost over and you can't do much with the summon. So if PF kept the 1 limit, compare 1 to a fighter. It should be at least a little weaker because psions have other abilities too. Otherwise I'd compare at most 2 astral constructs to a fighter. Even the 2nd one is less helpful than the 1st. If it's limited use per day, compare to a raging barbarian instead, or to a fighter with a barbarian dip.

[deuxhero]

3.5 never did. There are rumors about a book that did outside of the core psionics rules, but that book was never published because it was terrible and does not exist.

[Particle_Man]

Having run a psionics game in 3.5, whatever you think of Complete Psionic, it is good to limit the psion to one Astral Construct at a time for balance reasons as raised by the OP.

Mind you this is Pathfinder . . . so who knows?

[peacenlove]

Summon undead -> Shadows (from Spell Compendium) solve your melee problems. Drop a cloud (which incorporeal creatures can move freely into) and most fights are over unless they outlevel you by far.

A big moving pile of numbers? Just dispel it or bypass it.


Having run a psionics game in 3.5, whatever you think of Complete Psionic, it is good to limit the psion to one Astral Construct at a time for balance reasons as raised by the OP.

Mind you this is Pathfinder . . . so who knows?

Yet sorcerers flood the battlefield with shadows and augmented demons and druids with greenbound terrors.

[ericgrau]

Those have lower CR though, or so says the OP. So first question before imposing limitations is what is a melee's stats and what is an astral construct's stats.

[Psyren]

DSP did not carry over the CPsi nerf into Pathfinder. You can summon assemble multiple ACs.

And Fax is right, the benchmark for an AC is an Eidolon.

[Big Fau]

If the number of summoned creatures (of any kind, not just ACs) is a problem, change the duration of the summoning spell/power to Concentration (incidentally, this solves another issue of Summon X and Astral Construct being garbage at 1st-3rd levels due to low duration).

[Psyren]

If the number of summoned creatures (of any kind, not just ACs) is a problem, change the duration of the summoning spell/power to Concentration (incidentally, this solves another issue of Summon X and Astral Construct being garbage at 1st-3rd levels due to low duration).

That has more implications than just duration though. It means that casters who summon only have move actions to defend themselves with, and can't cast anything else either. I think it's a bit too limiting.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yet sorcerers flood the battlefield with shadows and augmented demons and druids with greenbound terrors.

Well, Greenbound Summoning is one of the most broken things in the game.

But yeah, a sorcerer or wizard with Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, and bunch of Conjuration BFC and Summon Monster is really good. Using multi-summonign also makes Augment Summoning more useful, although I wouldn't go with creatures more than two levels below the max Summon Monster level you can cast. Druids also have better beatsticks on their list, so it works for them too.

[Suddo]

In 3.5 Astral Construct only lasts rounds per level. And still costs PP. That's how its balanced.

[Particle_Man]

Yet sorcerers flood the battlefield with shadows and druids with greenbound terrors.

Not in my campaign they don't. :smallsmile:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Not in my campaign they don't. :smallsmile:

Okay, the Greenbound I can get, but seriously, shadows? Shadow Conjuration isn't actually that overpowered, just a versatile "pull something out of the toolbelt" spell that's only really good if your enemies have low will saves or you really focused on increasing the DCs. Shades, though, is really powerful.

[DoctorGlock]

Okay, the Greenbound I can get, but seriously, shadows? Shadow Conjuration isn't actually that overpowered, just a versatile "pull something out of the toolbelt" spell that's only really good if your enemies have low will saves or you really focused on increasing the DCs. Shades, though, is really powerful.

I think he means shadows as in the incorporeal strength drain guys

[Particle_Man]

I think he means shadows as in the incorporeal strength drain guys

You are correct, sir! :smallcool:

[Fax Celestis]

And Fax is right

I usually am! :smallbiggrin: