Making everything tier 3

[Particle_Man]

What would you do to tier 1 and 2 classes to bring them down to tier 3? What would you do to tier 4, 5, and 6 classes to bring them up to tier 3?

[Yora]

To get the Tier 1 and 2 classes down, you have to limit the spell lists. Except for druid, which has awsome class features, all the good classes are only good because of the spells they have. They usually lack any other class features and it's not the number of spells they can use per day. It's all about the spells.

Improving low tier classes is more difficult, as they have much more different reasons for why they are weak. However most of the time, it's their lack of any useful class features. Repairing that is difficult, because it usually means you have to scrap them and completely remake them from scratch, including a different concept of what they are supposed to do.

[gallagher]

instead of bringing classes down and up, just restrict them to the tier 3/4 area. treat the lower classes as dips. you get ToB and casters with limited spell lists, and tier 4 has barbarian and rogue for what they are worth.

[mattie_p]

Nerf spells, especially broken ones. I've houseruled that polymorph spells must be researched/obtained for each type you are changing into. So you have polymorph-frog, polymorph-housecat, etc. You can also change exp progression tables, similar to 2nd ed. Slower progression for higher tiers, faster for lower. Really kinda difficult to totally make the tiers even, unless you do some serious playtesting.

[gbprime]

You have to limit the spells known of cleric, druid, and wizard. If they cannot pick anything any time they need it, they're not T1/T2 anymore.

For the lackluster classes, you can give them access to Tome of Battle maneuvers or give them bonus feats.

[NOhara24]

I've really only thought about this for the paladin...

Paladin - CHA based casting to alleviate MAD, pick one domain from the Cleric domain list. Battle Blessing as a bonus feat at level 6 or so. Smite Evil turns to the Crusader version, Smite.

Druid - UA variants seem about tier 3.

Cleric - d6 hit die. Limit Spell list. Ban DMM cheese.

Arcane Casters - Limit Spell list.

Fighter - Play the Dungeoncrasher/Storm Trooper variant.

Monk - Full BAB except when flurrying, 1.5x STR bonus to damage when unarmed. Selective VoP bonuses at certain levels as class features. Fists can be enchanted as if they were weapons.

Rogue - Gain ability to sneak attack enemies normally immune to it at level 7 or so. Increase sneak attack die every level instead of every other level. Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat and DEX to damage instead of STR to help alleviate MAD.

Barbarian - Double DR gained at designated level. Toughness as bonus feat given at the same levels as DR. Diehard as bonus feat given at level 10. WIS to saves. (Maybe a bit powerful, but they should at least be able to do the one thing they can actually do really well.)


That's really all I can think of off the top of my head.

[NeoSeraphi]

All full BAB classes that do not have access to maneuvers should receive iterative attacks every 4 BAB instead of every 6. (So a 20th level fighter's full attack routine should be: +20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2)

All full BAB classes (except the ranger) receive 4+Int skill points per level and get their choice of adding all Int, Cha, Wis, or Dex based skills to their class skill lists.

All 3/4 BAB classes (except the rogue) receive 6+Int skill points per level and get their choice of adding all Int, Cha, Wis, or Str based skills to their class skill lists.

Any creature with a natural fly speed that is struck by an attack while flying must make a Reflex saving throw (DC 10+Damage dealt) or immediately begin to fall.

Any creature with a magical fly speed that is struck by an attack while flying must make a Concentration check (DC 30+damage dealt) or immediately begin to fall.

The fly spell does not allow you to cast spells while aloft. The overland flight spell loses one remaining minute of duration per spell level when you cast a spell while aloft.

All full BAB classes that have at least 7 BAB receive the pounce extraordinary special attack.

Any character who has less Base Attack Bonus than his character level immediately switches to the standard 6 BAB iterative routine and loses pounce.

Spellcasters are all limited to the bardic spell progression. 7th-9th level spells do not exist, period. Spellcasters with less than the bardic spell progression, such as the ranger, paladin, and hexblade, instead receive spells as the bard, with spell lists expanded to include thematically appropriate druid/cleric/wizard spells.

[Yora]

All full BAB classes that do not have access to maneuvers should receive iterative attacks every 4 BAB instead of every 6.
It's actually every 5 levels, based on 0 attacks on level 0.

[Rejusu]

Get anyone playing a tier 1 or 2 to take a prestige class that drops them down a tier or two.

[Telonius]

To dial Tier 1's down to Tier 2:

For a Druid, use the shapeshift variant and trade Animal Companions with Ranger.

Cleric? No Divine Metamagic. Divine Power is War Domain only. Severely restrict the ability to gain/trade domains.

Artificer has to wait longer to build things he couldn't normally create himself. They're less effective than an actual Wand of X, possibly modeled along the lines of Shadow Conjuration spells.

Archivist is a special case, and should be worked out directly between the DM and the player. The easiest way to restrict it is to limit the number of wacky not-usually-divine scrolls available (a la Divine Bard, funky domains, etc). But this will require a lot of trust on both sides.

Wizard ... Sorcerer steals his bonus feats. Otherwise, we'll fix him in a second.

To dial Tier 2's down to Tier 3:

Go through the entire list of spells with a fine-toothed comb. Ferret out all of the potential game-breaking combinations. (Note that this is usually more trouble than it's worth; Tier 2's can run a perfectly fine game with Tier 3's as long as they adhere to the Gentleman's Agreement).

Now, for bumping up the lesser tiers. For Paladin, get Tome of Battle, and everywhere you see the word "Crusader," scratch it out and write "Paladin." Similar situation for Fighter (Warblade) and Monk (Swordsage).

If you don't want to go that route, you'll need to do some serious changes. Make Paladin less MAD (possibly key everything off Charisma). Give Fighter more worthwhile feats (deliver status, duck magic, etc), and more skill points and class skills. For Monk, full BAB and the ability to self-enchant body and natural attack as though he were an equal-level spellcaster. Flurry as a standard action.

Rogues and Barbarians are hard to do a quick-and-dirty change. They're well-designed classes (with the exception of Rogue20), and you don't want to mess something up while fixing them. I guess what I would change to the Rogue, would be to give them Craven's benefit as a standard, free Weapon Finesse at third level, and possibly a bonus Sneak Attack feat (like the ones in Complete Scoundrel) in there somewhere.

Barbarian, the DR should be something more worthwhile. Iron Heart Surge should be a class feature somehow. More class skills, but not necessarily more skill points.

For Ranger, as mentioned before he's stolen the Druid's animal companion. That's powerful as-is. I'd also change the Two-Weapon Fighting feat to scale with level, with the Improved and Greater versions lessening the penalties by an additional one. Not sure how to improve ranged Rangers, but archery in general is pretty terribly supported in D&D anyway. Fix that, and you've fixed the class.

Truenamer is sent back to the editing room and told not to come out until he's been completely reworked.

[erikun]

I'll have to agree with Yora. Tier 1-2 are that tier due to magic; even the much-lauded Druid is only Tier 3 without their spellcasting.

The problem is not that spellcasting itself is inherently broken, as three of the T3-T4 classes are pure casters. Nor it unrestricted spell access a problem, as the above get automatic access to their entire spell list. Rather, the problem is the vast and exceptionally varied spell list that T1 has access to, both in the spells themselves (Fly vs ranged attacks) and the spells' effects (Gate something with Wish and Gate as SLAs).

[MukkTB]

Rather than trying to remake classes to be tier 3, it seems that the best option would be to take the collection of tier 3 and 4 classes that already exist and ignore the rest.

At that point if you wanted to go deeper into house rule territory you could proceed to somehow buff the tier 4s. From there you could identify archetypes that aren't already supported and do some home brewing to fill them.

[jaybird]

Break the Wizard down into specialist themed casters a la Beguiler/Dread Necro/Warmage. One each for Transmutation and Conjuration, split up Divination spells as thematic, give Warmage more Abjuration spells as well as a splash of Conjuration and Transmutation.

Use the Pathfinder Paladin to give it a boost, then...maybe give the Paladin a Domain? Would that bring Pally up to T3?

Replace Fighter with the Warrior generic class, possibly?

[Kalim]

The big issue I see with a lot of the 'Bring T4s and lower up' fixes in this thread, is that people are typically just tacking more damage onto them or whatever.

Rogue isn't T4 because its Sneak Attacks don't hit for tons of damage. They definitely do. Rogue is T4 because all it can do is Sneak Attack and open locks, and it can't do one of these without set-up. They aren't lacking damage, they're lacking options that are not damage.

You have to remember, the Tier System isn't meant to measure damage done, it's meant to measure flexibility. Clerics and Druids are incredible because they can do everything. Rogues are not, because they can't.

I feel a lot of the T1 and T2 nerf ideas work. Limit casting. Limit Druids to either Wild Shape or spells, or limit their spells/companion. It's a lot easier to remove T1 caster utility, than it is to try and give the T4s and below more.

[Coidzor]

Any character who has less Base Attack Bonus than his character level immediately switches to the standard 6 BAB iterative routine and loses pounce.

Spellcasters are all limited to the bardic spell progression. 7th-9th level spells do not exist, period. Spellcasters with less than the bardic spell progression, such as the ranger, paladin, and hexblade, instead receive spells as the bard, with spell lists expanded to include thematically appropriate druid/cleric/wizard spells.

If you're doing the latter, it doesn't seem like you've left any good reasons to display such a hostile attitude towards multiclassing as exhibited by the former.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The big issue I see with a lot of the 'Bring T4s and lower up' fixes in this thread, is that people are typically just tacking more damage onto them or whatever.

Rogue isn't T4 because its Sneak Attacks don't hit for tons of damage. They definitely do. Rogue is T4 because all it can do is Sneak Attack and open locks, and it can't do one of these without set-up. They aren't lacking damage, they're lacking options that are not damage.

You have to remember, the Tier System isn't meant to measure damage done, it's meant to measure flexibility. Clerics and Druids are incredible because they can do everything. Rogues are not, because they can't.

I feel a lot of the T1 and T2 nerf ideas work. Limit casting. Limit Druids to either Wild Shape or spells, or limit their spells/companion. It's a lot easier to remove T1 caster utility, than it is to try and give the T4s and below more.Rogues have a great skill list, including UMD. They're down in T4 at least partly because their damage is so unreliable. If the rogue gets showered with wands of golemstrike, gravestrike, vinestrike, and homebrewed wands of elementalstrike, swarmstrike and oozestrike, then that might bump him up without any other mechanical changes.

And now the rest of the mundanes...

-Full BaB classes gain the "Full Attack as a Standard Action" class feature at level 6.
-Full BaB classes get a minimum of 4+INT skill points, and any base class who could reasonably be a mundane guard gets spot, listen and sense motive as class skills.
-Give the Paladin the PF chassis; nudge the player towards Spell Compendium, Wand Chambers and Battle Blessing.
-Give Monk Full BaB and WIS replacing STR for hit/damage as a class feature
-Bump the Barbarian's DR to Invulnerable Rager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/invulnerable-rager) status and nudge him towards Whirling Frenzy.
-Give the fighter Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim as standard. Nudge him towards good bonus feats.
-If the Ranger needs to be changed, giving him the Druid's animal companion and d10 HD should do it.
-Play at regular WBL, and let your mundanes be christmas trees.

And now the casters...

-Gentlemen's agreement. If this doesn't work, they'll find a spell you forgot to nerf.
-Alternatively, we already have Bard, Beguiler, Warmage and Dread Necromancer as T3 casters. We also have Binding, Shadowcasting and Incarnum for fun magic. Throw in Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor), Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist), Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) (maybe tweak the spell list a little), and Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus), and after that you have quite a few T3 casty archetypes to work with. Unfortunately a Shapeshift Variant Druid is still T1 due to casting, but that list is easier to deal with...

[Talya]

You don't need to get rid of all spellcasting above level 6...let's face it, that's boring. I can prove it. Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage are Tier 3-4, despite having 9th level spells. I suppose you could create new classes like any of these that focus on a particular school or schools, to the exclusion of everything else. These replace specialist wizards.


Druids that drop to bardic-style spellcasting progression are tier 3, even with core wildshape and animal companion.

Cleric probably needs slightly better progression, as they don't have much other than spellcasting.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The idea of a 6 level list is that you cherrypick thematic spells from the Sor/Wiz list (such as Otto's Irresistable Dance) and give them to the specialty caster at a lower level. That fixes at least some of the boring. That said I still believe a gentlemen's agreement is the best way (if not a perfect way) to deal with T1 and especially T2.

[Big Fau]

Druids that drop to bardic-style spellcasting progression are tier 3, even with core wildshape and animal companion.


This would actually make some sense, because old-school Druids were actually Bards too (IIRC). Adding in the Shapeshift ACF would not hurt too much (it would actually help at the low levels).

As for the Cleric: Make it closer to the Ardent (the only spells a Cleric can cast are from the Domains a Cleric has selected), and give it some actual class features (and ban DMM: Persistent Spell).

With the Wizard, however, the issue is spell access. The class should not have access to more than 2 schools of magic at a time (plus Universal), and from a limited number of spells known. A VERY limited number.

Archivist doesn't need to exist at all, and the Artificer should be restricted to the Bard/Duskblade/Hexblade/Paladin/Ranger spell lists instead of being given free reign to do as he pleases. The Erudite should be banned outright (as the Psion is more balanced).

For the Tier 2's, it's a matter of sifting through the spell lists and telling them what they can and cannot have. That's really the best answer.

[DrDeth]

Druid- spellcasting as ranger. OR spellcasting as bard and shapeshift variant.

Cleric- dump all the self-buff spells, Cloistered cleric only, adjust some of the higher game-breakers. No DMM.

Wizard. Two schools (plus Universal) per Wiz. Dump some of the higher end game breaking spells.

Sorc: Three schools.

All full spellcasting classes get 9th level spells only as a 20th level capstone. Adjust casting so that 7th level comes @ 8th level for Wiz/Cleric, etc.

Fighter- 4 SkP, a feat every level (so a bonus ftr feat every level they don’t get a normal lvl feat).

Monk & Rogue- get Pally or Ranger spellcasting. Fewer monster immune to SA, just make undead have 1d6 “SA reistance” for example.

Pally & BBN- just use the PF version.
Ranger-gets limited SA, half rogue progression.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would suggest you just choose from the extended list of Tier 3 classes...

Add the homebrew options here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174628

To the non homebrew options here:

Bard (Player's Handbook)
Beguiler (Player's Handbook II)
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)
Binder (Tome of Magic, WITHOUT the Online Vestiges)
Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic)

Druid, with as many of these nerfs as you can manage:
Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Affliction (Exemplars of Evil)
Spontaneous Rejuvenation (Player's Handbook II)


Shaman (Oriental Adventures, possible Tier 2 due to spell access)
Shugenja (Complete Divine)
Crusader (Tome of Battle)
Swordsage (Tome of Battle)
Warblade (Tome of Battle)
Factotum (Dungeonscape)
Duskblade (Player's Handbook II)
Totemist (Magic of Incarnum)
Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum)
Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Psychic Rogue (Online, see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b and http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723c )
Wilder (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Ardent (Complete Psionic)
Ranger (Wildshape variant Ranger, Unearthed Arcana, SRD)

Nightstalker (Races of Ansalon, a Dragonlance book, possible Tier 4)
Summoner (Pathfinder)
Alchemist (Pathfinder)
Inquisitor (pathfinder)
Magus (Pathfinder)

[jaybird]

Restricting Wizard to 2 Schools doesn't really limit him in any way, considering how 2/3 of the Arcane list's power is tied up in Transmutation and Conjuration. Perhaps restrict him to 3 Schools and count Transmutation and Conjuration as 2?

[Gavinfoxx]

Wouldn't a wizard with ONLY Conjuration still be Tier 1 though??

[DrDeth]

Restricting Wizard to 2 Schools doesn't really limit him in any way, considering how 2/3 of the Arcane list's power is tied up in Transmutation and Conjuration. Perhaps restrict him to 3 Schools and count Transmutation and Conjuration as 2?

Hmm, you make a point. I’d say have a point value for schools then. 3 points total, Transmutation and Conjuration as 2pts, rest as 1? Or a 5 point scale Transmutation and Conjuration as 3 points, Evoc as 2, etc?

[Big Fau]

Wouldn't a wizard with ONLY Conjuration still be Tier 1 though??

Yes, as would the Transmutation one without extensive spell rebalancing.

[gbprime]

Which once again means that the best solution to make wizard into a T3 class is to limit their spells known. There's only so much damage you can do to a campaign if you only know 6 spells of a given level.

[Rejusu]

The big issue I see with a lot of the 'Bring T4s and lower up' fixes in this thread, is that people are typically just tacking more damage onto them or whatever.

Rogue isn't T4 because its Sneak Attacks don't hit for tons of damage. They definitely do. Rogue is T4 because all it can do is Sneak Attack and open locks, and it can't do one of these without set-up. They aren't lacking damage, they're lacking options that are not damage.

You have to remember, the Tier System isn't meant to measure damage done, it's meant to measure flexibility. Clerics and Druids are incredible because they can do everything. Rogues are not, because they can't.

I feel a lot of the T1 and T2 nerf ideas work. Limit casting. Limit Druids to either Wild Shape or spells, or limit their spells/companion. It's a lot easier to remove T1 caster utility, than it is to try and give the T4s and below more.

And part of the reason they're down in tier 4 is purely because of the existence of the Factotum. Rogues have plenty of options in skills and that's why they're a common choice for skill monkeys. But the Factotum is simply better in this regard. The tier system not only measures things like flexibility but also takes into account how good a class is at something in relation to how good other classes are at it.

That's why you get classes that do similar sorts of things (like Barbarian and Fighter) that are in two different tiers. Rogue might feasibly be tier 3 if not for Factotum outshining it in it's main area of expertise.

Plus everyone and their mother is immune to sneak attack so if you want to do any real damage you have to invest in ways around that.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wouldn't a wizard with ONLY Conjuration still be Tier 1 though??

That's something that can be fixed with a little editing. Such as making all five subschools their own school for the purposes of wizard selection. (Suddenly, conjuration (teleportation) seems like not so great a school, considering how few of them there are, especially before the wizard gets to 4th level spells. Conjuration (Healing) isn't so great without cure spells, but leaving it behind will cost a wizard a lot of his already limited healing capabilities, and you would have to spend two of your schools on both calling and summoning, so you don't automatically get both).

As for transmutation, that one is a little trickier.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

The best way is just have a gentlement agreement, it mainly how the group plays.

[Suddo]

To show an example, Wu-Jens are almost idenical to Wizards but most consider them Tier 2 due to their crummy spell list, it does have some gem but still.

Some good ideas I've heard are:
Wizards: Limit to 1 school and give no bonus spells, they aren't focused, and nerf the best spells, teleport, polymorph and such. This should drop them to Tier 3 or 4. You'd have to make some things universal but they are more basic spells.
Sorcs: Probably something similar as the Wizard but maybe 2 schools, you'd have to check to see how good Transmute, Conjuration Sorc would be.
Clerics: The reason they are so good is Turn Undead and Domains. Get rid of Divine Metamagic and nerf some of their spells and they'll fall a tier. If you want to drop them more you'd probably have to do something similar to the Wizard nerf though I'd spend time to make it not look too much like a bandage.
Erudite: Even the normal version is considered a variant just remove it and be done.
Psionic: I've heard it say that if you get rid of some key powers they drop a tier. I'm not a psionic expert.
Archivist: Do something like with Wizards.
Druids: It depends on how you want to nerf them. Do you want to get rid of the Wildshape or not? If you want to get rid of wildshape just test how good they are without it. If you want to keep it see how good they are without spells.
Artificer: Remove that golem that allows them to continue to craft without being there and limit how much time they get as a DM you'll quickly see them drop. Though they will still be Tier 1 if you just let your PCs loaf around.
Favored Soul: Some think like Sorc.

That's my opinions.

[JadePhoenix]

Play 4e, everything is t3.

[Shadowknight12]

The high-op crowd plays Tiers 4 and below, the low-op crowd plays tiers 1 and 2.

Mid-op crowds can have Tier 3.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Play 4e, everything is t3.They seem pretty squarely in T4 to me. Characters generally fit one or two narrow specializations in and out of combat and rely heavily on other party members to execute other roles. For instance, while a group of T3s can live without a dedicated healer as long as a couple of cheap items are bought (belt of healing, wand of lesser vigor, etc), a 4e group without a leader needs very specific planning* to survive.

Perhaps "leader" in 4e encompasses more than just healing, says the interlocutor. A group of T3s (for instance, Crusader/Beguiler/Factotum/Psychic Warrior) lacking a dedicated divine caster can emulate the "divine caster" role through various abilities, including UMD.

*Dwarf Warden with lots of abilities related to second wind, maybe? All I know is I was in a relatively unoptimized group with a Paladin as "healer" and we were very hard pressed to survive extended encounters even with some homebrew giving the paladin more self-healing.

[FMArthur]

I really, really think the answer for the upper tiers is limiting the T1s and T2s to maximum 6th level spells, maybe 7ths for T2s. Give it a real chance; it sounds severe but it really isn't - you actually wind up with spells being appropriate for the levels you get them. It's totally compatible with almost all the existing material of the game, requires less gimmicks/rewriting, and doesn't leave you a humiliated wreck at your table when you realize that limiting people to one spell school didn't come remotely close to changing anything at all or that your wizard would rather use a crossbow than waste hours casting a single spell.

They are still better because of the breadth of their spell lists, but they are not all-powerful or untouchable. They can play better with T3s because they can't totally outclass them anymore.

Tier 1 casters: Take the PF Bard's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard) spell chart. Add 1 spell of each level (you still need to let them have enough to do to fill their adventuring day, remember). Playing a Tier 1 means sacrificing the raw power of the specialist classes (Warmage, Dread Necro, Beguiler, other lower-tier casters that go up higher than 6ths) for their massive versatility, which is still quite strong at the levels they get their spells anyway. Druids get 3.5 Bard's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm) chart to mitigate their low-level dominance. Archivists are limited to Cleric, domain, Druid, Ranger and Paladin lists. There's enough absurdity even within that that you don't need Bard, obscure prestige classes and basically anything else you want in there. Artificers must use a Tier 1's progression to determine the minimum caster level of prerequisite spells in Item Creation.
Tier 2 casters: Do the same but shift the chart up by one level and add a 7ths column from levels 18-20. They are slightly more specialized and less versatile after all, so this adds more to the idea of having a versatility-power spectrum. Use the corresponding Bard spells known chart shifted up as well.
Psions (T2) and Erudites (T1): Adjust their maximum power level known to be the same as those in their respective tiers. They don't need anything else, really. I'd give Erudite 1 more UPD though, just to lower the bar for actually fun low-level play.



The only halfway difficult thing about this alteration is coming up with class features to make things more interesting when they're gaining spell levels slowly (although they always gain a slots in their highest level when they level-up), without boosting their actual power too much. Some ideas: Save DCs: +1 to spell save DCs at 6, 12 and 18. These are the levels where your highest save DCs are are 1, 2 and 3 levels behind 1/2 your hit dice, the 'standard' for a creature's save DC. Keeping the saves relevant helps to not nerf one caster style more than another.
Boring 3rd level: 3rd level is the main offender on boring levels; others aren't as bad because you are at least growing multiple columns of spells/day. Give a free selected Reserve feat, but improve it at every odd-numbered level instead of being based on spell levels. You could copy and paste most of the feats, change that part of them, and remove their prerequisites. Among them only Borne Aloft and Minor Shapeshift are upsetting to balance at this level, so leave those out and you're golden. Hand out this option multiple times in the progression if you like. T2s could get this the level before or after since they get their 2nds at 3rd level.
Psicrystals: With the 1 extra UPD improving Erudites' normally miserable 1st level, they could have their psicrystal bumped over to their now-boring 3rd level. Psions could get it as a freebie as well.

[Fitz10019]

Want an easy way, without a lot of houseruling, debating and spellbanning?

Simple math, and multiclassing. Require PCs with T1 and T2 class levels to multiclass with T4 and T5 class levels. Check the averages at levels 6, 12 and 18. And the same applies backwards. If someone insists on playing a monk, have him multiclass into druid, for example.

[Rejusu]

Psions (T2) and Erudites (T1): Adjust their maximum power level known to be the same as those in their respective tiers. They don't need anything else, really. I'd give Erudite 1 more UPD though, just to lower the bar for actually fun low-level play.

Worth noting that Erudite is only T1 if you use the online spell-to-power variant which gives it access to the Wizards spell list. Otherwise it's T2 like the Psion.

[gkathellar]

No. Even without StP, Erudite is Tier 1, simply by virtue of having every power in the books known. Powers aren't as good as spells, but they are still very good, and Psion is only Tier 2 because it knows 36 of them at max.


Play 4e, everything is t3.

This is a really dramatic mischaracterization both of 4E and of the Tier system, if only because the two are only to one another in the barest sense and are based on almost entirely different sets of assumptions. I'm not sure if you intend this as a jab at the idea of balance, a jab at 4E, both, or just a snide comment, but it's really pretty much entirely false.

[Rejusu]

No. Even without StP, Erudite is Tier 1, simply by virtue of having every power in the books known. Powers aren't as good as spells, but they are still very good, and Psion is only Tier 2 because it knows 36 of them at max.

You don't automatically have all those powers though, you still have to shell out to learn them. Psions limited number of powers known isn't what's holding them back (especially since you can expand it through expanded knowledge and independent research) it's purely because spells are better than powers. As I mentioned earlier in the thread one of the main reasons why Rogues are tier 4 as opposed to t3 is purely because the Factotum exists. It does the same sort of thing as the rogue but better.

Psions and wizards are much in the same boat, take wizards out of the equation and Psion would go up a tier. The vanilla Erudite is held back for much the same reasons the Psion is. Plus it absolutely cripples you for multiclassing, so it doesn't have that in it's favour.

It's again worth noting that Erudites don't just get all the powers as if by magic (or should it be "as if by psionics"?), they have to succeed at multiple checks and pay an XP cost to do so. If they fail they can't attempt the check again until next level.

[kestrel404]

Well, I'm currently in the process of re-writing all of the base classes to be tier 3. I'm about 1/3rd done, and what I've got so far is:

Tier 1 casters:
Change spell progression to match bard progression (max out at level 6 spells) - this reduces the options they get by about 1/3rd. I mean, there's no reason why a mage should need to cast be able to cast more than 8 different spells per expected encounter per day BEFORE bonus spells from high stats & magic items are taken into account!

Remove/rewrite broken spells, limit options for choosing/learning new spells & move inherently more powerful/versatile spells to higher levels.

Add class features that can be relied on in place of spells.

Tier 2: The sorceror - while there are other tier 2 classes, I'm mostly dealing with the core classes, so this is the common example. For the Sorceror, I'm relying on a complete change of Operating mode - instead of relying primarily on spells like the other caster classes, then Sorceror is taking strong hints from the Warlock class. Specifically, they get a SLA & Blasting progression similar to that of a warlock. However, to bring up their versatility somewhat, I'm also allowing them 1 spell/day of each of the 6 levels (gained at the same time as the other classes gain their 1st spell of that level), plus bonus spells. They get the same number of spells known, as well as a bloodline (a la pathfinder).

Tier 4: I haven't decided what to do for the Rogue as of yet, but for the battle-casters (Ranger & Paladin), I'm going to be providing them each with a major upgrade to their companion class features (Rangers get magical-beast animal companions, either templated or chosen from a list, while Paladin mounts are automatically templated & intelligent), they will get those companions sooner, they will have a higher caster level, and a limited selection of Tomb of Battle-style maneuvers.

Tier 5 & 6: Monk an fighter are both getting complete re-writes. The fighter is still going to get his 'feats' and the monk will be doing level-based unarmed damage with a unarmored AC boost, but that's pretty much the extent of the similarit. Instead of being locked into his choices, the figher will be able to retrain 1 'feat' selection for every 8 hours of training he does, he will have an innate combat style (which also allows him to select things that are not 'feats' per-se in place of bonus feats) and he will be getting NON-COMBAT abilities relating to mundane skills a soldier would normally be expected to have, like leadership qualities, cooking, engineering, survival and training others (providing bonuses to his companions). The fighter ALSO gets a fighter-level based ability to boost saving-throw rolls (fighter level/3 times per day) to express the inherent difficulty of putting him down with a save-or-die effect.

Meanwhile, the Monk's class features are all going to be central to his Wisdom score, allowing him to deal extra damage, hit more often, run faster, take less damage and do crazy monk-stuff based on his wisdom score - thereby reducing the MAD considerably. This will be in addition to a ninja-style Ki-pool that is based on Wisdom and monk levels and allows him to use those cool monk-tricks.

Barbarians (I belive they're tier 5?) are also going to be getting a boost from having the ability to call upon 'totem spirits' for blessings that provide numerous buffing effects, both in-and-out of combat. These effects also let them expend some of their rage (measured in round, like in Pathfinder) for non-combat bonuses and abilities.

And all three of them will ALSO get full maneuver progresssions as of Tome-of-battle.

I've got most of the class features for these classes written out at this point, and I'm just filling in individual powers and abilities (as in the options available to the Fighter for non-combat bonuses and the Totems available to the Barbarian).

[Rejusu]

Barbarians are tier 4.

As for what to do with the rogue I'd consider looking at the Factotum and blending some of that into the rogue, since really the Factotum is just a better rogue for the most part. Also remove some of the restrictions on sneak attack, part of the problem is far too many things are immune to that requiring a lot of messing around on the rogues part to get around those immunities. Consider some of the features of the Changeling rogue substitution levels too.

Can't say I see the point in rewriting classes though. 3.5 has enough material that it's not hard to find a base/prestige class around t3 that also has a similar flavour to the under/overpowered tier classes.

[Talya]

On druid:

Let me reiterate:

A druid without wildshape or animal companion is still tier 1. 90% of a druid's power is in their spellcasting. People don't realize it, but their spell list is much closer to the wizard's in terms of versatility than the cleric's list (without domain spells, anyway.) The druid spell list is incredibly powerful and makes them Tier 1 all on its own.

A druid with bardic spellcasting progression, full wildshape, and animal companion is still only a tier 3. If you nerf druid spellcasting to that of a bard, there is no reason to further cripple wildshape or animal companion.

Lastly, if you drop a druid's spellcasting below bardic levels (someone suggested ranger casting), they'll drop below tier 3. Yes, a wildshape ranger is Tier 3...but they have full BAB. Full BAB is huge on a wildshape-focused character.

[eggs]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread one of the main reasons why Rogues are tier 4 as opposed to t3 is purely because the Factotum exists. It does the same sort of thing as the rogue but better.
That's true, but it's asinine.

The Tier system was proposed and is treated as a criterion-referenced grading scale, though many facets of its implementation (such as the one you highlight) are norm-referenced, which undermines its functionality as a useful tool.

Though the reasoning is inconsistent, as demonstrated by the Wizard sill being categorized in T1 after the StP Erudite's printing.

[Rejusu]

That's true, but it's asinine.

The Tier system was proposed and is treated as a criterion-referenced grading scale, though many facets of its implementation (such as the one you highlight) are norm-referenced, which undermines its functionality as a useful tool.

Though the reasoning is inconsistent, as demonstrated by the Wizard sill being categorized in T1 after the StP Erudite's printing.

I wouldn't say it's that inconsistent, Wizard is STILL T1 even with the existence of StP Erudite. StP Erudite is good, and in the right hands it probably can outclass a straight Wizard but it's not significantly better. Unlike the Factotum which significantly outshines the Rogue at nearly everything the rogue can do.

Plus StP Erudite isn't some god, it still has some rather restrictive limitations on it which the wizard isn't subject to.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's what I did in my custom campaign setting (linked in sig in the spoiler)

Basically, I removed the offending classes rather than fixing them. In fact, I'm not using a single Core class in the setup.

Wiz/Sorc was replaced with an invocation-based class called Arcanist. It picks up more invocations than Warlocks do, with a lower BAB. It gets several more blasting options than Warlocks do, including die size upgrades, as well as some utility.

As additional arcane options, Beguiler/Dread Necro/Warmage is available, although Warmage is altered to be more viable. Additional Oracle and Summoner base classes are in development, which use the same spell list mechanic within their respective fields.

Cleric/Favored Soul was replaced with a homebrew class that uses Shadowcasting type progression, but still needs to be playtested for balance sake. Questions were raised about its viability that need playtesting to be addressed.

Healer is also permitted, but additional spells are added to the list to provide them with useful party support buffing and negative status effect removal options. They also gain an Advanced Learning that lets them add any spell with Save: Harmless up to ((class level/2)-1). It also becomes a spontaneous caster with access to their entire spell list, using the same language as Beguiler/DN/Warmage for the mechanic.

Druid was replaced with Wylder, which is an invocation-based class that has the same invocation progression as the Warlock. Instead of a blast, it can summon Animals from the Summon Nature's Ally list (Note: NOT magical beasts OR Extraplanar OR outsiders... Unicorns and Djinn are explicitly barred). If any iteration of this SLA is used while one is already active, it overwrites and the previously summoned minions vanish. There's a line of invocations which adds a buff to all summoned minions, but of course you can only apply one of them at a time. It also has a line of invocations which are functionally similar to Aspect Druid.

That takes care of most of the T1/T2 classes

For the T5/T6 classes...

Replace Paladin/Fighter/Monk with ToB equivelants (Crusader/Warblade/Swordsage).

Ranger loses spells and gains access to Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, Diamond Mind, and Desert Wind. They may also use any maneuver with a ranged or melee weapon rather than only melee weapons.

Bard, while already a T3 class, was altered to be an invocation-based class with Bardic Inspiration as the at-will SLA, which can give numerical boosts to various things, and as he levels, he can apply it to different things. Most of his SLA's are mind-affecting sonic area-effect battlefield control/buffing/debuffing.

[Draz74]

Ernir nerfed a lot of the broken spells in his conversion of Vancian casting to psionics mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002). I haven't studied or playtested it in depth, but just using his version of Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer might bring them all down to Tier 3.

[Numinous]

Want an easy way, without a lot of houseruling, debating and spellbanning?

Simple math, and multiclassing. Require PCs with T1 and T2 class levels to multiclass with T4 and T5 class levels.

+1, except I'd make them multiclass with NPC classes like Expert or Noble.

Every 4th level for T1s, and every 5th level for T2s.

[Suddo]

Druid, with as many of these nerfs as you can manage:
Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Affliction (Exemplars of Evil)
Spontaneous Rejuvenation (Player's Handbook II)


So this interests me because its technically not even homebrew.

So if you make a druid: Spontaneous Divine Caster, Deadly Hunter, and Avenger Variant. Would that nerf them enough to be tier 1 or tier 2. I'm not 100% familiar with their spell list to know if a sorc version of them would still be good.
For those who don't want to read:

Spontaneous Divine Caster (page 64):
Imagine Sorc spell casting.
Deadly Hunter (Page 58):
Gains:
Bonus to AC when unarmored (as monk including Wis)
Fast Movement (as monk)
Favored Enemy (as ranger)
Swift tracker (as ranger)
Track feat (as ranger)
Lose:
Armor and shield profiecency and wild shape (all versions)
*Druidic Avenger (page 51)
Gains:
Intimidate as a class skill
Fast Movement (as barbarian)
Rage 1/day + 1/day/4 levels(as Barbarian, no greater rage, indomitiable will or mighty rage)
Tireless Rage @ Level 17 (as Barbarian)
-4 penalty on wild empathy checks
Loses:
Spontaneous summon spells
Animal Companion

[Talya]

So this interests me because its technically not even homebrew.

So if you make a druid: Spontaneous Divine Caster, Deadly Hunter, and Avenger Variant. Would that nerf them enough to be tier 1 or tier 2. I'm not 100% familiar with their spell list to know if a sorc version of them would still be good.
For those who don't want to read:

Spontaneous Divine Caster (page 64):
Imagine Sorc spell casting.
Deadly Hunter (Page 58):
Gains:
Bonus to AC when unarmored (as monk including Wis)
Fast Movement (as monk)
Favored Enemy (as ranger)
Swift tracker (as ranger)
Track feat (as ranger)
Lose:
Armor and shield profiecency and wild shape (all versions)
*Druidic Avenger (page 51)
Gains:
Intimidate as a class skill
Fast Movement (as barbarian)
Rage 1/day + 1/day/4 levels(as Barbarian, no greater rage, indomitiable will or mighty rage)
Tireless Rage @ Level 17 (as Barbarian)
-4 penalty on wild empathy checks
Loses:
Spontaneous summon spells
Animal Companion

Spontaneous divine casting alone moves them to tier 2. The other nerfs affect them within their tier, but don't change their tier at all. They also no longer resemble a druid, which sorta defeats the purpose of all this.

[Rejusu]

Spontaneous divine casting alone moves them to tier 2. The other nerfs affect them within their tier, but don't change their tier at all. They also no longer resemble a druid, which sorta defeats the purpose of all this.

Yeah a Druid without Wild shape AND their animal companion? You strip away pretty much all the flavour of the class with that.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah a Druid without Wild shape AND their animal companion? You strip away pretty much all the flavour of the class with that.

I just nerf the casting down to Bard levels but with the Druid's spell list and then let them pick either wildshape or animal companion.

[Talya]

I just nerf the casting down to Bard levels but with the Druid's spell list and then let them pick either wildshape or animal companion.

Why? Druid with bardic spellcasting and all their normal class features is a tier 3. It's not overpowered at all for a tier3 campaign.

[DrDeth]

+1, except I'd make them multiclass with NPC classes like Expert or Noble.

Every 4th level for T1s, and every 5th level for T2s.

We even found that making everyone take just one level of NPC (excluding Adept) to statrt had a pretty good effect. Skillmonkeys can take a level of Expert without much harm, and Fighters, etc can take a level of Warrior without much hurt (or even takeExpert or Aristocrat for the skills). But full spellcasters get a solid nerf hit.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

how does getting rid of the animal companion and wild shape, strip flavor from them.

the only thing that has to be done, is just tell the players they cant do everything.

[TuggyNE]

how does getting rid of the animal companion and wild shape, strip flavor from them.

In the classic Druid summary, "bear riding a bear summoning bears", the animal companion and wild shape are two thirds of that. Mind you, that's from the in-game perspective; it's also, obviously, a rather powerful setup mechanically, but the reason it's such a common catchphrase is because its flavor packs such a punch. Without those two major parts of the class, the Druid becomes just another full caster with an interesting list and a few vaguely-useful special tricks.

How can you not see how compelling the flavor is of turning into whatever animal you wish, while beckoning your companion to join you?

[crazyhedgewizrd]

In the classic Druid summary, "bear riding a bear summoning bears", the animal companion and wild shape are two thirds of that. ... beckoning your companion to join you?

take beastlord and wild cohort for more bears.

i seen wizards do bear riding bear summoning bears

[Shadowknight12]

take beastlord and wild cohort for more bears.

i seen wizards do bear riding bear summoning bears

I could not bear the sight.

[Dsurion]

In the classic Druid summary, "bear riding a bear summoning bears", the animal companion and wild shape are two thirds of that. Mind you, that's from the in-game perspective; it's also, obviously, a rather powerful setup mechanically, but the reason it's such a common catchphrase is because its flavor packs such a punch. Without those two major parts of the class, the Druid becomes just another full caster with an interesting list and a few vaguely-useful special tricks.

How can you not see how compelling the flavor is of turning into whatever animal you wish, while beckoning your companion to join you?I'd rather see all of the Nature (animal) stuff shifted to the Ranger, and have the Druid focus more on Nature (terrain), to be known more as the "battlefield control guy" rather than the "strictly better than Ranger vaguely defined nature-y guy."

[Aliek]

As for rogues, tough that could work for a lot of other classes, an idea is to give it a class ability, something akin to "always prepared". May be a bit too much metagaming, but other than that, it sounds fun.

It goes like this, when the rogue can spend some of his wealth(ahem, city visits, ye olde wandering magic shoppe too), he can invest some of it on his "always prepared" feature. That should be limited by his rogue levels, but I'm not too sure on the amount. Then, when adventuring, you can use that to "buy" stuff that would be handy.
Let's say your cleric got negative levels and someone(Or something) turned your wizard into stone, you could then, as you're always prepared, pull a scroll of stone to flesh out of your pocket and UMD that. There should be a limit on the number of items you can pull out with this trick, tough.

Sounds like fun, especially with all those situational mundane equipment that usually never sees the light of the day. Still, as I said, that'd be quite a bit of metagaming, but I like this feel of a guy who is ready for everything. Even if his player wasn't really ready for that.

[TuggyNE]

I'd rather see all of the Nature (animal) stuff shifted to the Ranger, and have the Druid focus more on Nature (terrain), to be known more as the "battlefield control guy" rather than the "strictly better than Ranger vaguely defined nature-y guy."

That's really not a bad idea; the main point I was making is that even if it might be justified, the loss of fluff is real, and shouldn't be simply shrugged off.

Giving Rangers the superior animal companion and (optionally) better wildshape in particular would be quite reasonable. And, especially if the Druid got additional class features/fluff relating to their control of natural terrain etc, it would work out rather well.

[Talionis]

To bring tiers up, I played in a game where all characters got an extra feat at every level they didn't get spells. It was a pretty fun game.

Fighter got 20 feats plus his bonus.

Paladin got a feat every level they didn't get spells so the first four levels, if I remember right.

Just laugh at monks until they pick something else. But even they play better with twenty extra feats.

All the extra feats lead to some interesting builds and unusual situations. People even took feats just for flavor.

[FMArthur]

I sort of prefer that the Ranger is less magical by default than the Druid; the Ranger is more of an expert on nature and the wilderness while the Druid is more mystically connected to the heart and soul of nature. I know there's a fair bit of overlap between them, but I'd prefer that the Druid at least be the one to keep the better Wild Shape to represent its greater spiritual investment than a variant Ranger. Bringing Druid down to T3 by pushing its spellcasting below the ridiculousness threshold is both less impactful on existing fluff and massively more effective at achieving the goal than having it lose its interesting and useful class features.

[Talya]

I sort of prefer that the Ranger is less magical by default than the Druid; the Ranger is more of an expert on nature and the wilderness while the Druid is more mystically connected to the heart and soul of nature. I know there's a fair bit of overlap between them, but I'd prefer that the Druid at least be the one to keep the better Wild Shape to represent its greater spiritual investment than a variant Ranger. Bringing Druid down to T3 by pushing its spellcasting below the ridiculousness threshold is both less impactful on existing fluff and massively more effective at achieving the goal than having it lose its interesting and useful class features.

Yeah, this. The existing druid is perfect, from a flavor perspective. I love the druid class. I have issues with how powerful it is, but I wouldn't trade away a single ability, just tone them down. (Although wildshape and animal companion aren't overpowered. They're ideal class features, balance-wise. The problem is that darn spellcasting.)

Similarly, the ranger needs a boost. This shouldn't be a magical boost, I think, I prefer if the Mystic Wildshape Ranger remain an unusual thing, rather than the norm.