Changeling Rogue/Fighter

[Mari01]

Well I've finally discovered the glory of the Changeling and have now established them as my new favorite race. In addition, my backup character is going to be a Warshaper. Now I've looked high and low on how not to break it. What I'd like to know is what are some good feat choices? And is it worth it to dip into rogue at levels 1-2 for the Changeling substitution level? Feat rogue is also acceptable if there's a lot that needs to be taken.

[Axier]

Firstly, I would recomend that you talk to your DM, because if it was my campagin, I wouldn't allow the hideously minor changes of the changling to qualify for Warshaper.

As for what you can do with it, you should probably try posting what you want the character to do, because Warshaper and Fighter aren't exactly defining parts of what you want to try to get from the class. Large amounts of builds from that.

I personally like abusing reach and spiked chains using the Warshaper reach, and Abberation feats.

[JonRG]

Changelings have the (shapechanger) subtype, so they still qualify even if MCS is inadequate.

Would need more information to offer suggestions for character build.

[Mari01]

I'd suppose I would want to use the natural attack options, since no one in our group has done that before. The closest we've ever come to someone who's a primary natural attack user is a kobold doing claw/claw/bite as a last resort. Funnily enough, the DM is the one who reccommended the warshaper when I finally cracked open Races of Eberron.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the warshaper
prestige class. The class features function only when the
warshaper is in a form other than her own.

Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the
supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though
using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not
their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor
physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin
color and texture, and size, within the limits described
for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will,
and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A
changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true
seeing spell reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a
full-round action.
Definitely talk to your DM about whether any of the Warshaper's class features will work for you. From what I can see, Minor Change Shape affects only your appearance, it doesn't actually turn you into another creature. Taking an unnatural appearance of your own form does not qualify as 'in a form other than your own' at my table.

[Cog]

It's worth noting the definition of the shapechanger subtype that Changelings get:

A shapechanger has the supernatural ability to assume one or more alternate forms. Many magical effects allow some kind of shape shifting, and not every creature that can change shape has the shapechanger subtype.
So, to even get the shapechanger tag, you have to be a particularly effective shapechanger. Changeling's ability qualifies, or else they wouldn't have the subtype. (You can make the argument that the writers didn't realize exactly what the shapechanger tag meant, but that's another matter.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's worth noting the definition of the shapechanger subtype that Changelings get:

So, to even get the shapechanger tag, you have to be a particularly effective shapechanger. Changeling's ability qualifies, or else they wouldn't have the subtype. (You can make the argument that the writers didn't realize exactly what the shapechanger tag meant, but that's another matter.)

What you quoted actually links alternate forms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) to an ability that would enable the Warshaper class features, if a changeling had it. The actual traits of the shapechanger subtype, i.e. the game mechanics and not just the flavor text, give no indication that creatures with that subtype automatically get such an ability.

Changelings were published after WotC started a trend of giving every humanoid a subtype, whether Dragonblood or Human or whatever. Changelings are descendents of dopplegangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/doppelganger.htm), so based on their heritage the shapechanger subtype is the only thing that would have been suitable. Changelings have the shapechanger subtype for flavor reasons, and the flavor text you quoted does not entitle them to anything more than what they're explicitly given.

[Cog]

What you quoted actually links alternate forms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) to an ability that would enable the Warshaper class features, if a changeling had it. The actual traits of the shapechanger subtype, i.e. the game mechanics and not just the flavor text, give no indication that creatures with that subtype automatically get such an ability.
That isn't flavor text. Glossaries generally don't have flavor text, and other subtypes throughout the same glossary provide relevant rules in the same format as the selection I quoted from.

Further, other sources of Alternate Form make their own modifications to what the ability does in that particular case. Changeling's modifications are simply so extensive that there's little point in referring to the base rules at all.


Changelings were published after WotC started a trend of giving every humanoid a subtype, whether Dragonblood or Human or whatever.
MMIV: varag. MMV: god-blooded humanoids, hobgoblin variants, kuo-toa variants, thoon thrall. I haven't bothered to look through any other books, but it seems like they could leave off subtypes when they weren't applicable after all.


Changelings are descendents of dopplegangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/doppelganger.htm), so based on their heritage the shapechanger subtype is the only thing that would have been suitable. Changelings have the shapechanger subtype for flavor reasons, and the flavor text you quoted does not entitle them to anything more than what they're explicitly given.
You're making an argument from RAI here. It might well be true, but it's unlikely we'll know. My point is purely about the RAW.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That isn't flavor text. Glossaries generally don't have flavor text, and other subtypes throughout the same glossary provide relevant rules in the same format as the selection I quoted from.

Further, other sources of Alternate Form make their own modifications to what the ability does in that particular case. Changeling's modifications are simply so extensive that there's little point in referring to the base rules at all.

MMIV: varag. MMV: god-blooded humanoids, hobgoblin variants, kuo-toa variants, thoon thrall. I haven't bothered to look through any other books, but it seems like they could leave off subtypes when they weren't applicable after all.

You're making an argument from RAI here. It might well be true, but it's unlikely we'll know. My point is purely about the RAW.

RAW, Changelings get an ability that mimics Disguise Self, which is incapable of changing you into another creature, regardless of what you want their Shapechanger subtype to imply. Appearing different and being a different creature are two completely different things, and only one of those enables you to use the Warshaper class features.

[kardar233]

I'd personally say that any form except the standard Changeling creepy white-face form counts as being in a changed form for Warshaper. However, I'm biased as I had a ton of fun playing a Changeling Totemist/Warshaper a while back.

[Urpriest]

Definitely talk to your DM about whether any of the Warshaper's class features will work for you. From what I can see, Minor Change Shape affects only your appearance, it doesn't actually turn you into another creature. Taking an unnatural appearance of your own form does not qualify as 'in a form other than your own' at my table.

You bolded the relevant part right there in that quote. A True Seeing spell reveals the natural form of a Changeling under Minor Change Shape. Ergo, a Changeling under Minor Change Shape is not in its natural form. If you're not in your natural form, by definition you're in a form other than your own.

[JonRG]

Mari's DM recommended the class, so presumably he would allow the class features to work.

As for feats, I'm not too sure what to suggest feat-wise if you're not going to get a natural attack until sixth. Power Attack, Weapon Focus (which maybe your DM would let you retrain at 6th), usual melee stuff. Anything else you'd want to do aside from hit things with natural weapons?

[Cog]

RAW, Changelings get an ability that mimics Disguise Self, which is incapable of changing you into another creature, regardless of what you want their Shapechanger subtype to imply. Appearing different and being a different creature are two completely different things, and only one of those enables you to use the Warshaper class features.
RAW, shapechangers have some version of the Alternate Form ability. RAW, Changelings have an ability that alters their form; cosmetically it's equivalent to Disguise Self, but it's explicitly a physical change and not an illusion, so it's not just a matter of "appearance". You're right, only one of those two abilities work, but Changelings do come down on the right side of that line, just barely.

[Mari01]

I'd personally say that any form except the standard Changeling creepy white-face form counts as being in a changed form for Warshaper. However, I'm biased as I had a ton of fun playing a Changeling Totemist/Warshaper a while back.

Oooo totemist. That requires me learning that horrid Magic of Incarnum. I've been dreading it but I think the time has come finally. As a quick primer before diving in again, I understand the basics of incarnum and slots and chakra, but I get lost somewhere. Not sure why.

[JonRG]

If ToB interests you, there's also Warblade/Bloodclaw Master goodies to be had. (Courtesy of a forum search.)


On the build itself: I'd do something more like Fighter 2/ Warblade 2/ Warshaper 2/ Bloodclaw Master 1/ Warshaper +2/ BcM +4/ Warblade +X. That way you take your non-initiating levels earlier so you can take higher-level maneuvers at your initiator levels.

Should be able to keep combat lively and, if a maneuver is too OP, you can just switch to other ones.

[Coidzor]

Changelings were published after WotC started a trend of giving every humanoid a subtype, whether Dragonblood or Human or whatever. Changelings are descendents of dopplegangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/doppelganger.htm), so based on their heritage the shapechanger subtype is the only thing that would have been suitable.

Human would've been suitable as well, given that's what the other half is supposed to have been.


Oooo totemist. That requires me learning that horrid Magic of Incarnum. I've been dreading it but I think the time has come finally. As a quick primer before diving in again, I understand the basics of incarnum and slots and chakra, but I get lost somewhere. Not sure why.

There's guides online, and it's not bad, just edited badly so that you have to remember to look in multiple places for things.

[Mari01]

Hmmm the ToB idea hadn't occured to me. Natural Weapons are always considered light weapons right?

[Coidzor]

Hmmm the ToB idea hadn't occured to me. Natural Weapons are always considered light weapons right?

Ayup. Works real nice with Tiger claw focus on a warblade, IIRC.