When can a Paladin join a Necromancer?

[Babale]

In a campaign I'm about to run, starting at level 1, one of the players is a Paladin, while the other is a Dread Necromancer. Now, I did loosen the Paladin code (So that a Paladin shouldn't do most of the bad things on it, but will only fall for repeated offences, a gross violation, or anything that opposes his deity's goal). Further, none of the code is absolute. If a Paladin must commit an Evil act in order to prevent a greater Evil, that's OK; if a Paladin commits questionable acts in the service of his deity, that's not automatic cause for a Fall.

So under these conditions, what sort of threats would be grave enough for a Paladin to consider joining up with a necromancer?

The Dread Necromancer is savvy enough to cast Undetectable Alignment and bluff his way out of evil actions early on, but not once he starts animating left and right at level 6 (Modified Dread Necromancer spell list). So, I guess that just means I need to start the main questline early, which is fine; what sort of threats justify this party makeup?

[Ravens_cry]

If there is a greater threat than a guy who likes to make use of post-consumer lifeforms that run on an alternate élan vital, then they can be, if not buddies but at least working colleagues.
Personally I consider most forms of Necromancy to be not exactly evil, but even if this campaign does, someone trying to destroy the world is probably more important to take down first than some dark master/mistress of the night wannabe.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I hate "all necromancy is evil". First off, zombies and skeletons and such that are harmless if not commanded and are just bodies, not souls, are not evil. Second, if you can somehow make or find a lich ritual that doesn't turn you evil (the standard one is gained by swearing oaths to Orcus or somesuch).

Second, the dread necro is evil? When there's a paladin in the party? Talk to the dread necro player.

[Babale]

If there is a greater threat than a guy who likes to make use of post-consumer lifeforms that run on an alternate élan vital, then they can be, if not buddies but at least working colleagues.
Personally I consider most forms of Necromancy to be not exactly evil, but even if this campaign does, someone trying to destroy the world is probably more important to take down first than some dark master/mistress of the night wannabe.


I hate "all necromancy is evil". First off, zombies and skeletons and such that are harmless if not commanded and are just bodies, not souls, are not evil. Second, if you can somehow make or find a lich ritual that doesn't turn you evil (the standard one is gained by swearing oaths to Orcus or somesuch).

Second, the dread necro is evil? When there's a paladin in the party? Talk to the dread necro player.


This necromancer is definitely Evil. He's an Elf who was affected by a plague, and realized that Elven age is no guarantee of immortality. He will do anything to avoid the Fires Bellow.

[Ravens_cry]

@Jade Dragon:
The Monster Manual doesn't go into too many details if I remember correctly, merely saying the Lich ritual is unspeakably evil and then, naturally, not speaking of it. There is the baelnorn or "Good Lich", but I don't know if there is actual rules for that or merely fluff.

[Big Fau]

Just a note: Not all Necromancy spells are evil, and there are a handful of reanimation spells that lack the tag.


This necromancer is definitely Evil. He's an Elf who was affected by a plague, and realized that Elven age is no guarantee of immortality. He will do anything to avoid the Fires Bellow.

The Paladin's code really isn't thought out at all, and encourages metagaming to the point that a DM is better off ignoring the one written in the PHB and working out an actual code with the player playing the Paladin.

That said, as long as the Dread Necromancer can avoid grossly violating the code of conduct within earshot of the Paladin and can avoid Detect Evil or similar spells, the two can journey together until the DN achieves Lichdom.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Have the Paladin use the Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) 1 substitution level, and not take any ranks in Spellcraft. He can no longer Detect Evil, and he's clueless regarding what spells the other guy is casting and whether or not they're evil.

"While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code."

Looksie-the-other-waysie.

[Ravens_cry]

Maybe the Dread Necromancer elf should be raised by halflings.
That might help (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This necromancer is definitely Evil. He's an Elf who was affected by a plague, and realized that Elven age is no guarantee of immortality. He will do anything to avoid the Fires Bellow.

Once the Paladin hits 6th and gets Remove Disease, he could actually cure the elf's plague and possibly lead to his redemption. Alternatively, when the Necromancer hits 5th level, assuming he's a Wizard, he can get the Domain Power ACF in Complete Champion for the Pestilence domain. He'll become immune to the affects of all diseases, though he can still carry diseases and could still spread that plague.

[Babale]

Once the Paladin hits 6th and gets Remove Disease, he could actually cure the elf's plague and possibly lead to his redemption. Alternatively, when the Necromancer hits 5th level, assuming he's a Wizard, he can get the Domain Power ACF in Complete Champion for the Pestilence domain. He'll become immune to the affects of all diseases, though he can still carry diseases and could still spread that plague.

The Necromancer already got rid of the plague, but it ravaged his body. In-game, that means he started with 6 Con. He's a Dread Necromancer, not a Wizard.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Q: When can a Paladin join a DN?

A: When he's a Bone Knight (5N) or a Grey Guard (CW).

Biffoniacus_Furious's suggestion is also a good one - maybe he redeems him to a Neutral Alignment, and then you can talk to your player about accepting a baelnorn template (or even a Good Lich: WotC published one in MaF, I believe).

[Krotchrot]

I seem to remember a book that mentioned different play styles of "Evil". Myself I always wanted to play a Necromancer that wasn't evil, just that he used animated corpses to try and "Frankenstein" his lost love back. There can be a lot said of how evil is treated. Everything is in the eye of the beholder. Whilst one person might see that shambling monstrosity an abomination of all that is good, really it just wants a hug.

[watchwood]

The big question I have, is why does necromancy itself have to be evil? In my group we pretty well always look at it Oblivion style - Necromancy itself isn't bad, it's what the necromancers do with their under that cause problems.

[Babale]

The big question I have, is why does necromancy itself have to be evil? In my group we pretty well always look at it Oblivion style - Necromancy itself isn't bad, it's what the necromancers do with their under that cause problems.

That's irrelevant, because he IS Evil. He likes being Evil.

[Novawurmson]

I like the Pathfinder Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) code of conduct a little better:


While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Most campaigns tend to be "exceptional circumstances." As long as the BBEG is worse than the DN (and the Paladin isn't personally doing anything evil), the Paladin would be in good shape.

[Ravens_cry]

That's irrelevant, because he IS Evil. He likes being Evil.

And that's a problem.
On a personal level, even if ones code is A-OK with emergency team-ups of this nature, someone who constantly offends your moral code and shoves it in your face is going to be very irritating to be around.
I see much intra-party conflict with this one.

[Krotchrot]

Just remember in the end: "D&D is Satans game!" :biggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Just remember in the end: "D&D is Satans game!" :biggrin:
All I need to remember is where the Mountain Dew is.

[50Copper]

I once played a Lawful Good necromancer who only used undead to combat other undead, because his parents were murdered by a Lich.

It was so much fun, he hated himself for having to use them.

[Ravens_cry]

I once played a Lawful Good necromancer who only used undead to combat other undead, because his parents were murdered by a Lich.

It was so much fun, he hated himself for having to use them.
I want to play a Lawful Neutral Cleric (or perhaps Oracle) necromancer who raises skeletons and zombies to serve society and others.
He thinks what he does is noble and just.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%28DnD_Other%29/Morality

You need to read that and make an overt decision on how necromancy and the morality of necromancy works in your game. In general, necromancy is either 'playing with fire' or 'crawling darkness'. It can't be both...

[Hiro Protagonest]

I want to play a Lawful Neutral Cleric (or perhaps Oracle) necromancer who raises skeletons and zombies to serve society and others.
He thinks what he does is noble and just.

Well, the bodies aren't exactly helping society sitting underground.

Of course, it'll cause people to lose jobs. On the upside, you could use it for a different purpose (invent electricity, but power it with giant wheels, like in hydraulics, but instead of water, just have the undead push them).

[Otomodachi]

*choppity* Myself I always wanted to play a Necromancer that wasn't evil, just that he used animated corpses to try and "Frankenstein" his lost love back. *chop*

Hey, I played that guy on a MUD for a good 3-4 year stretch! :)


That's irrelevant, because he IS Evil. He likes being Evil.

More info requested, please. Is he "HAHAHAH MY THRONE IS MADE OF BABIES!" evil, or selfish and greedy? Completely non-empathic? It sounds like the player of the DN has his dude fleshed out, kind of set in stone. Is that accurate?

Kuulvheysoon already brought up Grey Guard; I'll point out Paladin of Freedom as well, it's code, as written, specifically has a stipulation for 'undercover missions' or something. If both players seem into it, once the dust has settled on whatever the *POINT* of your campaign is, the thing could end with a showdown between the two. That would depend on what your players are like- encouraging inter-party aggression is a dangerous thing, man.

In my opinion, it'd be a bad idea to stray TOO far from the original Paladin code; the changes you've talked about sound perfectly sensible, to me, but I also feel like taking them TOO far would mean the player might as well choose a different class.

[Talionis]

Q: When can a Paladin join a DN?

A: When he's a Bone Knight (5N) or a Grey Guard (CW).

Biffoniacus_Furious's suggestion is also a good one - maybe he redeems him to a Neutral Alignment, and then you can talk to your player about accepting a baelnorn template (or even a Good Lich: WotC published one in MaF, I believe).

The problem is really if they both are played correctly they shouldn't be able to party together for more than a single adventure. The goals seem to be too diametrically opposed to one another.

One of them will have to give. Either the Paladin becomes somewhat less pure by something like Grey Guard or the Necromancer becomes somewhat less evil. The Necro -- "liking being evil" scares me to allow the team up.

Looking the other way as suggest above won't work unless your Paladin's Wisdom is like less than 8. The Paladin will know where the Necromancer's power comes from eventually. The Paladin isn't Lois Lane and you shouldn't make character, that seriously stupid. It leads to bad Roleplay.

Short Team up to save the world maybe. But the longer anything plays out, the less realistic it is for either of them not to blow up. Everything the Necro does should rub the Paladin the wrong way and eventually they should have to duke it out or part ways.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe he would rather be a Paladin of Slaughter or Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)? Or maybe he could hit Paladin 11, finally fall, and spontaneously convert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm#fallenPaladins) to Fallen Paladin 1/ Blackguard 10.

Why is the player rolling a Paladin? Did he just decide he wants to play 'a paladin' and that's his entire character identity? If so, then it's easy to fix by either changing his mind, or requiring him to put enough effort into it that you can find some reason for them to be working together.

[Babale]

More info requested, please. Is he "HAHAHAH MY THRONE IS MADE OF BABIES!" evil, or selfish and greedy? Completely non-empathic? It sounds like the player of the DN has his dude fleshed out, kind of set in stone. Is that accurate?


Yeah, his idea is that he will do anything to attain immortality. Before the campaign, he's been killing children and pets to experiment. Now he realized that he can adventure in order to attain corpses and get "thank you"s instead of pitchforks.

[Otomodachi]

Yeah, his idea is that he will do anything to attain immortality. Before the campaign, he's been killing children and pets to experiment. Now he realized that he can adventure in order to attain corpses and get "thank you"s instead of pitchforks.

Ranks in bluff for the DN? It's a Cha based caster, right?

"Gee, Mr. Paladin, I'm really trying hard to change my ways! If only I had someone to show my how..."

[Need_A_Life]

If a Paladin must commit an Evil act in order to prevent a greater Evil, that's OKI think you just answered your own question. If traveling with the DN serves the greater good, then everything is okay.

So under these conditions, what sort of threats would be grave enough for a Paladin to consider joining up with a necromancer?Making sure that the DN doesn't butcher orphanages for raw materials might be enough.
Trying to show him the way to redemption might be another.

Or, y'know, invading armies of Darkness might mean that he can't be too picky about allies.


The Dread Necromancer is savvy enough to cast Undetectable Alignment and bluff his way out of evil actions early on, but not once he starts animating left and right at level 6 (Modified Dread Necromancer spell list). So, I guess that just means I need to start the main questline early, which is fine; what sort of threats justify this party makeup?
Might the two actually become friends? I mean, I have friends whose political, religious and/or philosophical viewpoints I don't share, but that doesn't mean I won't spend time with them.
As long as you go by the interpretation that Necromancy doesn't affect a soul, only the body (or, in the case of incorporeal undead, an echo of consciousness) then what the DN is doing is distasteful, not actively malicious.

I've played evil, egotistical, cowardly characters alongside a paladin before and after the initial mistrust, come to be valued by the Paladin (Protip: restoring ability damage is always a good way to make friends).

[Suddo]

IF the Dread Necromancer stays Neutral (in Good v Evil) the paladin may just sneer at the Necromancer raising things but be mildly okay. Assuming you loosened the Code of Conduct.

Edit: Oh wait I just read what Character the Dread Necro was. Yeah this will only work if he does all his baby killing without the paladin know, which is going to be hard Paladins tend to find **** out, even with Undetectable Alignment. So yeah as long as the Dread Necro understands this the party should be quite interesting.

[Coidzor]

Well, a Redeemer of Regrets (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9994058&postcount=14) and a Paladin should theoretically get along.

[motoko's ghost]

Could the DN just pretend that they're shadow-infused illusions?
:smallwink:: "those aren't actually undead, Its just an optical illusion"
:smallmad:: "they just tore that troll apart!"
:smallwink:: "they're very good illusions"

[Shadowknight12]

Well, a Redeemer of Regrets (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9994058&postcount=14) and a Paladin should theoretically get along.

Best. PrC. I've seen. Bookmarking it. Thanks for sharing!

[RagnaroksChosen]

Via Raw I don't see why a Paladin and a DN couldn't be in the same group...
Assuming the DN's alignment wasn't evil, and the player wasn't an idiot and blantently did evil acts infront of the Paladin.. but then again casting an evil spell infront of a paladin does not A. make the caster evil, B. make the paladin fall for associating C. Force the paladin to Smite the caster or fall...

A good DN will/should bluff his way around any thing that would make him stand out.

I had a necro cleric once that was pretty evil, we had a paladin in the group. I also used undetectable alignment, and some other buffs... found ways to give my undead servants the same or similar.. I generally went for sealed in skeletons in full plate personally.

[Ryulin18]

This getting to me as well. I'm going to be in a campaign with a druid and a few other neutrals and goods.

Except for disguise alignment, disguise and some heavy bluff...How the hell can I keep raising?

I was going to roleplay as a pilgrim of an obscure god and keep all my undead in robes and masks. I am the only one not to take a vow of silence and to lead them.

[Rubik]

Could the paladin perhaps play a crusader or cleric instead? He could be courageous Lawful Good and then he wouldn't have to worry about breaking an official code (just the one he set for himself). Just grab Wild Cohort for a mount, and he could be good. (And Good.)

Or just say that his code is his personal belief system, and it isn't enforced by whatever cosmic force handles these things (as, except for the Forgotten Realms, paladins don't have to follow gods).

[motoko's ghost]

can you bluff your way into saying you follow Wee Jas(LN deity of magic and death) and say she said it wasn't an evil act? It's a pretty big lie, but you have bluff as a class skill so you might be able to wing it.

Or if the paladin is a grey guard, they might not care as much, but if anything they're MORE likely to horribly slaughter you if they think you're truly evil.

[danzibr]

Have the Paladin use the Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) 1 substitution level, and not take any ranks in Spellcraft. He can no longer Detect Evil, and he's clueless regarding what spells the other guy is casting and whether or not they're evil.

"While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code."

Looksie-the-other-waysie.
This is a great suggestion.

[Killer Angel]

Kuulvheysoon already brought up Grey Guard; I'll point out Paladin of Freedom as well, it's code, as written, specifically has a stipulation for 'undercover missions' or something.

The undercover mission will eventually end, and the PoF is still good, while the DN "likes being Evil".
I think that the presence of a paladin is only a further degree of the same problem: good guy and bad guy adventuring togheter... sooner or later, a conflict between party's members will arise.

[Gnaeus]

This getting to me as well. I'm going to be in a campaign with a druid and a few other neutrals and goods.

Except for disguise alignment, disguise and some heavy bluff...How the hell can I keep raising?

I was going to roleplay as a pilgrim of an obscure god and keep all my undead in robes and masks. I am the only one not to take a vow of silence and to lead them.

This is a short term solution. Not a long term solution.

1. Druid's spot is likely to be VERY high. It is a class skill on a wisdom based class with plenty of skill points.

2. Druid is likely to be able to spellcraft what you are casting eventually.

3. There will eventually be a fight where one of your minions gets hit. Spot check. Why isn't that guy bleeding? Or the druid or another PC will move up with a cure and zap your undead. Or the robe or mask gets torn. Or the druids pet (or the druid) smells that your pets aren't alive.

4. Bluff is not a suggestion spell. It won't make people believe unbelievable things. The more you use it, the bigger penalty you will have. And the druid will probably have a decent sense motive as well.

[Benly]

So, leaving aside the suggestion that the necromancer play a different character entirely (as happy as I always am to see someone link to the Redeemer of Regrets), an important question is "will this necromancer adventure with a paladin?"

It sounds like the OP has tweaked the paladin code so that he can adventure with a necromancer who's doing minor sinister deeds (such as animating their fallen enemies as minions, also known as using his class features) as long as he's not kicking puppies and burning orphans. Which should be fine for adventuring; it largely bars him from using sentient undead (because most of those dudes are not only NE or CE but extremely aggressive and slaughteriffic) but most of them suck anyway.

So if you've got that, and if the necromancer is willing to abide by those rules, the paladin actually has a fine and dandy excuse for hanging out with the necromancer: as long as he's around, the necromancer isn't performing any really evil deeds and even his semi-evil animating powers are being kept away from innocents and turned towards the purposes of good.

The problem in that case then becomes "will the necromancer accept these terms?" If he's "happily evil" and willing to do anything that might extend his lifespan, he's going to need a hell of an excuse to hang out with this paladin who won't let him do awful things for power and extended lifespan.

Edit:


This getting to me as well. I'm going to be in a campaign with a druid and a few other neutrals and goods.

Except for disguise alignment, disguise and some heavy bluff...How the hell can I keep raising?

I was going to roleplay as a pilgrim of an obscure god and keep all my undead in robes and masks. I am the only one not to take a vow of silence and to lead them.

Do you specifically want to play an evil guy, or do you just want to play around with necromancer minion mechanics without having a specific pre-existing character in mind? The latter situation actually is more or less what the Redeemer of Regrets was made for.

[Psyren]

Q: When can a Paladin join a Necromancer?

A: Over his dead body!

Thank you, thank you. We've got great refreshments in the lobby folks.

[Alefiend]

I've never been a fan of the paladin's "I'm not allowed to be your friend" restrictions. The last campaign I played, we had a paladin who made it a point to try to redeem evil people. She was serving as the parole officer for our rogue (who wasn't evil, but it wouldn't have made a difference if she was).

If your paladin is willing to make the necromancer's redemption a long-term goal, perhaps convincing him/her that death is nothing to fear or that immortality research is something that can be converted into more generalized health/longevity work that can benefit all, then you have the makings of some great character interaction.

[Aran Thule]

can you bluff your way into saying you follow Wee Jas(LN deity of magic and death) and say she said it wasn't an evil act? It's a pretty big lie, but you have bluff as a class skill so you might be able to wing it.


Might backfire if the Paladin makes a religion check or meets a real Wee Jas follower.

[Krotchrot]

Q: When can a Paladin join a Necromancer?

A: Over his dead body!



You sir, get a cookie.

[Dwy]

This getting to me as well. I'm going to be in a campaign with a druid and a few other neutrals and goods.

You could always try to convince the druid that necromancy in fact is natural. That what you are doing is no different than eating berries and fish found in nature. That the necromancy enables you to utilize a natural resource. Heck, you are just using the empty shells of dead people, that pesky ranger over there is trying to force an innocent forest animal into servitude, the druid should better focus his/her energies on that!

Be creative! There is always a way to justify even the vilest actions!



If your paladin is willing to make the necromancer's redemption a long-term goal, perhaps convincing him/her that death is nothing to fear or that immortality research is something that can be converted into more generalized health/longevity work that can benefit all, then you have the makings of some great character interaction.

@OP: Have a talk with the paladin player, that player choosing a class should not have to ruin or limit the other players' choices. There are loads of ways to about playing a paladin in a paladin-unfriendly enviroment(like the poster above pointed out), and an ultimatum (Like: "Either that player leaves the group, or I will!") is never the best one.

This article, (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html) written by the Giant, discusses how to deal with this kind of problems: See the second half. I recommend very much that both you, the paladin and the Necromancer read it.

Edit2:
Also, the necromancer faking repentance migth work. ("I've done bad things... Horrible even, but the [PLOT] needs us to be strong, and this is the only kind of strength I know") Sure, it takes some bluffing, but it can be done.

Edit3:
Subtle evil is also evil. You don't have to eat babies while the paladin is watching in order to be in character, even if your character sheet says Evil.

[Gnaeus]

You could always try to convince the druid that necromancy in fact is natural. That what you are doing is no different than eating berries and fish found in nature. That the necromancy enables you to utilize a natural resource. Heck, you are just using the empty shells of dead people, that pesky ranger over there is trying to force an innocent forest animal into servitude, the druid should better focus his/her energies on that!

Be creative! There is always a way to justify even the vilest actions!


No, there really isn't. If the druid follows one of the many druidic gods who hate undead, like the core Obad-Hai, there is no reasonable way (Short of the DM changing the continuity in his campaign) that you are going to convince Mr. Druid that undead are ok.



@OP: Have a talk with the paladin player, that player choosing a class should not have to ruin or limit the other players' choices. There are loads of ways to about playing a paladin in a paladin-unfriendly enviroment(like the poster above pointed out), and an ultimatum (Like: "Either that player leaves the group, or I will!") is never the best one.

It is the Necromancer's fault as much as the paladin's. Everyone is equally responsible for making a character that will work in the party. Paladins and DNs come up a lot, but it could be any obvious character conflict, like a priest of a god of law and justice and an obviously unrepentant thief.

If the players are good, you can tell them to make PCs that get along. This may require scrapping both the DN and the Paladin (to be fair) and telling them to make new characters that can cooperate. Or if your party is PVP friendly you can wait for the fireworks. But it is not the paladin's job to maim his character concept to allow play with a DN any more than it is to require the DN to change his character to a LN sorcerer who never animates dead.

The exception to this is if one character was in play well before the other. If the newer pc KNOWS that someone is already playing something that is hostile to his character, he is responsible for working out a playable compromise. I played a druid in a game that had been running for months, with an established IC history of hating undead, when a new Necromancer PC entered play, and yes, I ate his face when I realized, which didn't take long. But in this case it sounds like both PCs are entering in play at same time.

I advise one of the following solutions (whichever the players agree to)
1. Scrap both PCs, let them remake new characters that can get along.
2. Let them roll for it. Loser makes a new PC, winner keeps his original concept, with a point in backstory about how they defeated a (paladin/DN) Loser gets a promise from the winner that he can play his concept in the next campaign, and the winner will build a character that can cope with that.

[Ryulin18]

Do you specifically want to play an evil guy, or do you just want to play around with necromancer minion mechanics without having a specific pre-existing character in mind?

I've played plenty of evil guys in my campaigns. This is more of a chaotic neautral. And I just wanted to play with the zombie mechanics more than anything.


Heck, you are just using the empty shells of dead people, that pesky ranger over there is trying to force an innocent forest animal into servitude, the druid should better focus his/her energies on that!

Be creative! There is always a way to justify even the vilest actions!

Funny that the druid is playing a druid who is using his babboon as a combat god...Will have to pull that one on him.

[Particle_Man]

Yeah, his idea is that he will do anything to attain immortality. Before the campaign, he's been killing children and pets to experiment. Now he realized that he can adventure in order to attain corpses and get "thank you"s instead of pitchforks.

I don't think the paladin is the problem here. This is like asking "When can a Paladin join with a child-killer?" I mean, seriously? As soon as the paladin (or presumably *any* good character that can kick the DN's ass) figures out what the DN has done, I think that would be that and there would be an attempt to arrest or kill the DN, not because he is a DN, but because he murdered children as part of a medical experiment.

So unless the evil elf DN is *very* good at hiding the evilness that he likes so much, I'd rethink this campaign and have one or both players rethink their characters.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Clever disguises.

Ryulin, you can ask your DM to allow (and OP can allow) the use of gentle repose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm) to preserve a corpse that has been animated through animate dead, so that they do not decay, and presumably feel life-like (if not cold). A wand of prestidigitation can resolve the issue of heat in situations where it would come up (as it allows you to heat up an object by a variable amount). This is essentially a combination of spells that would allow you to preserve a corpse so that it remains human-like to the touch, spell, sight, and (presumably) taste, and since neither are illusions, you don't risk "Will save if interacted". It does not ward against magical protection, however.

There is also the spell disguise undead (Spell Compendium, p. 66), which does exactly what it says it does, providing a magical illusion of a normal humanoid (with the appearance of your choosing), plus protection against magical means of protection (although it doesn't foil the other natural senses, such as scent, as far as I can tell). It's a second-level spell, which means it wouldn't be tremendously expensive to get a wand of it, although it'd probably just be better if you added it to the Dread Necromancer's spell list (it is, after all, an ideal spell of the sort, and really only doesn't show up in it because the Dread Necromancer had a fixed list that drew almost exclusively from core and HoH).

Lastly (and this is my favorite option), there are the Living Masks (Ghostwalk, p. 72), a single-use (but permanent until removed) item that "provides an illusion that the wearer is alive, albeit a living person wearing a theater mask and clad in fine clothing". Your Dread Necromancer is now the ringleader for the world's creepiest theater troupe. The masks are 400 gp each, and while they are single-use, the magic only stops working if the mask is taken off, so if you make sure the mask stays secured to the undead, it will remain in effect indefinitely.

As far as I know, none of these effects shield the recipient from magical detection of alignment, so while the paladin might not know that they are undead, each undead will still need a casting of undetectable alignment on a daily basis (or a ring of undetectable alignment or some other equivalent item). Also among my favorites, for the purposes of this character type, would be the Mask of Lies (Magic Item Compendium, p. 115), worn by the Dread Necromancer. The Mask of Lies provides a +5 competence bonus to Bluff checks, persistent undetectable alignment, and three uses of disguise self per day. This allows your Dread Necromancer to be exceptionally good at lying to the Paladin, foils the Paladin's attempts at discerning his alignment, and allows him to take on an alternate persona, if he so chooses (and it fits perfectly with the "Theater Troupe From Hell" theme :smallbiggrin:).

[Coidzor]

One thing is that with gentle repose, heavy, dark robes, and a bluff check to fluff them as followers with a vow of silence, you can do a lot.

Another is that it would be fairly reasonable to allow something like the feat rudimentary intelligence for undead, for at least animal level intelligence.

[Gnaeus]

Clever disguises.

Ryulin, you can ask your DM to allow (and OP can allow) the use of [I]gentle repose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm)


One thing is that with gentle repose, heavy, dark robes, and a bluff check to fluff them as followers with a vow of silence, you can do a lot.

This is really rather silly. Yes, As tylenol suggests, you could use some very loose interpretations of the rules to expand the powers of Dread Necros and allow spells to hide undead. And if the MD goes for it, these should work great for walking through town.

For hiding from a party member, they suck. The undead don't bleed when they are hit. Gentle repose and a bluff check don't do ANYTHING for that. Nor does the fact that they never eat unless you order them to. Never breathe unless you order them to. Never go to the bathroom unless you order them to. Never scratch an itch, shift to a more comfortable position, or do any of the other things that living things do. If they fall into a river, they sink to the bottom, because they don't swim unless ordered.

If I were the player of the paladin and the DM ruled that I didn't notice any of these things after days or weeks of adventuring together, I would say that the DM was biased, and his rulings were completely bogus. Unless the paladin PC and everyone else in the group have a significantly below average int and wisdom, I don't see any chance.

And when the deception is uncovered, you WILL have a fight. Then, it is not "undead aren't all that bad" time, it is "AAGH! the monsters have infiltrated the party!" time.

[Lonely Tylenol]

This is really rather silly. Yes, As tylenol suggests, you could use some very loose interpretations of the rules to expand the powers of Dread Necros and allow spells to hide undead. And if the MD goes for it, these should work great for walking through town.

I wouldn't attach yourself too much to those "very loose interpretations", as I suggested other, better, and entirely RAW-legal ways to do the same thing. Don't punish me for being comprehensive and exploring all options by picking on the weakest.

EDIT: And nothing I mentioned here couldn't be done with an Eternal Wand, if you really want to be strict about it.


For hiding from a party member, they suck. The undead don't bleed when they are hit. Gentle repose and a bluff check don't do ANYTHING for that.

I refer you, in this case, to the other, better, and entirely RAW-legal ways mentioned above. Why wouldn't a persistent illusion produce this effect?


Nor does the fact that they never eat unless you order them to.

"They have Rings of Sustenance."

Or, "I prefer to eat separately from my servants."


Never breathe unless you order them to.

Living Mask is good for this, but there's no reason not to just say "always pretend you're breathing" or some simple command to the equivalent of "expand and contract your chest every few seconds".


Never go to the bathroom unless you order them to.

Who goes to the bathroom in front of the party anyway?

If you (discreetly) order your undead to disappear for five minutes once or twice a day, and your Paladin buddy can tell the difference, then he's probably doing something that isn't very Lawful Good anyway, the little pervert.


Never scratch an itch, shift to a more comfortable position, or do any of the other things that living things do. If they fall into a river, they sink to the bottom, because they don't swim unless ordered.

"Oh no! My friend can't swim! Won't anybody jump in and save him?!"

Or, if this becomes something that's too problematic, sets of Rings of Communication would allow the Dread Necromancer to communicate with everyone (you can attune additional rings by pressing them all together as a standard action). Now, commanding all your undead is an almost purely mental action that doesn't require loud verbal commands. (This is actually pretty useful anyway, as now the undead doesn't have to be within earshot and outside of a zone of silence to hear your commands; they just need be within a mile.) Now, if you need your undead to appear more lifelike, you can whisper "scratch yourself" from a hundred feet away and your undead cohort will hear you--and then scratch himself.

Also, a lot of the things you're describing seem to be very specific for a roleplaying game without any visuals. I've never had my DM have us roll Spot checks (or roll them himself) to see if we could tell if the creature we were facing had regular breathing patterns. Hell, if that was even a thing, undead hunters probably wouldn't bother with the more asinine ways of revealing vampires, like checking for a reflection or a reaction to a cross.

Even in a campaign with such attention to detail, however... You need a smart player with appropriately sharp attention to fine detail, but it can be done. Nothing you've described here sticks out as something that can't be covered through mundane means, let alone magical (and there is no shortage of magic devoted to hand-waving away just these sorts of things).

[Particle_Man]

It also assumes that the DN is the only necromancer. What if they run into an NPC who has detect undead and rebuke undead abilities more powerful than the DN? Suddenly the "servants" are turned on the party and the NPC has no reason to keep the secret so could cackle "Now your undead minions are MINE! Bwahahahahaha!!!" or something equally melodramatic.

And if that doesn't happen, something else might (like the paladin being told by his church to track down who/what was killing children earlier, etc. and finding out it was the DN), or the "servants" being hit by anti-magic/dispel magic (a standard debuffer) etc.). It seems unlikely that nothing like that will ever happen. It would require both luck on the DN's part and willful ignorance on the paladin's part.

So eventually the jig would be up. And then there would mostly likely be a fight to the death. if the players are ok with that, fine. If not, I suggest they either play the very evil party or the really good party but not try to do both at once.

[OracleofWuffing]

Lots and lots of sovereign glue. Just make sure that the two of them can carry each other when their initiative rolls up, and there shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[The Random NPC]

This is really rather silly. Yes, As tylenol suggests, you could use some very loose interpretations of the rules to expand the powers of Dread Necros and allow spells to hide undead. And if the MD goes for it, these should work great for walking through town.

For hiding from a party member, they suck. The undead don't bleed when they are hit. Gentle repose and a bluff check don't do ANYTHING for that. Nor does the fact that they never eat unless you order them to. Never breathe unless you order them to. Never go to the bathroom unless you order them to. Never scratch an itch, shift to a more comfortable position, or do any of the other things that living things do. If they fall into a river, they sink to the bottom, because they don't swim unless ordered.

If I were the player of the paladin and the DM ruled that I didn't notice any of these things after days or weeks of adventuring together, I would say that the DM was biased, and his rulings were completely bogus. Unless the paladin PC and everyone else in the group have a significantly below average int and wisdom, I don't see any chance.

And when the deception is uncovered, you WILL have a fight. Then, it is not "undead aren't all that bad" time, it is "AAGH! the monsters have infiltrated the party!" time.

Since most of this is roleplaying, it can be disguised by more roleplaying. DN: They are monks striving to transcend the mortal plane. As such they have no need to breathe or eat, and have never learned to swim. Paladin: Oh yeah? Then why are they following us fighting monsters? DN: Because they are still good people and wish to reduce the amount of monsters that will plague the rest of civilization when they succeed in transcending to a higher plane.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

Slightly off topic per the OP intent of having an evil necromancer, but a recent Kobold Quarterly had the "White Necromancer" class in it.

[Benly]

The bulk of the suggestions here assume that the paladin (and all other Good parties involved) has no or very poor Sense Motive, Spot and, K: Religion. Also, that the paladin is an idiot, and also, that the paladin's player is okay with being treated like an idiot.

The question being asked here, it seems, is less "when can a paladin join a necromancer" and more "how can a hand-wringingly evil character join a paladin and expect no consequences".

[Rubik]

Also, that the paladin is an idiotHe's a paladin. Q.E.D.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The bulk of the suggestions here assume that the paladin (and all other Good parties involved) has no or very poor Sense Motive, Spot and, K: Religion. Also, that the paladin is an idiot, and also, that the paladin's player is okay with being treated like an idiot.

Your compatriots don't have to be stupid for you to be able to abuse Occam's Razor; in fact, it kind of relies on them having a solid grasp of deductive reasons (and therefore not being stupid) to do so:

"What do you think is more likely: that the entourage I have traveling with me is actually a small army of zombies for which I have crafted an elaborate set of disguises to make them look, smell, and feel like zombies wearing theater masks and dashing attire (who even has the money to shell out for clothes like that in this economy? A bunch of homeless adventurers? I think not), crafted specifically to foil your magical detections and your common senses, who I send away at dinnertime specifically because I don't want you becoming suspicious of their... More esoteric eating habits, and who I will sneak out while you're asleep to feast off the flesh of our fallen foes... All so that, what, I can win your approval or something?

"Or that I'm of the uppity sort who just doesn't like eating with his servants?"


The question being asked here, it seems, is less "when can a paladin join a necromancer" and more "how can a hand-wringingly evil character join a paladin and expect no consequences".

Well, yes, because if the Paladin is Lawful Good, then there is no budging on the Paladin's side. I mean, Lawful types do have a tendency to try to make everyone else think the same way they do--or else. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html)

Nor, really, is there any reason to--after all, the Paladin's code is the Paladin's code, and anyone playing a Paladin (or playing with a Paladin) should have a reasonably sound idea of what to expect: Paladins are devout and quite morally inflexible.

If something's gotta give, and it does, it's gotta be on the Dread Necromancer's side, and that invariably means making the character less easy to detect (since making the character less hand-wringingly evil is kinda self-defeating).

I do need to ask, though, since it slipped my mind, and I don't think anyone else has: Are each of the players aware of what the other is playing? And/or are each of the players mature enough to resolve this from a roleplaying perspective, rather than a metagame one? And if the answer to both of these questions (but more importantly, the second) is no, who chose their character first?

[Babale]

I think all of you missed the point of my question.

Obviously, as soon as the Paladin finds out how evil and rotten the necromancer is, and he'll find out sooner or later (My money is on level 6 when the necromancer learns Animate Dead), there's gonna be conflict. The necromancer can't hide his legions of undead forever. My question is, how bad does the main plotline Big Bad Evil Guy have to be for the standard Paladin to say, "Yes, Mr. Necromancer deserves to die slowly and painfully, but I need every resource at my disposal to take out this bigger threat, so I can deal with the necromancer later"?

Odds are, if both characters survive, I'll let them fight it out at the post-campaign wrap up session.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think all of you missed the point of my question.

Obviously, as soon as the Paladin finds out how evil and rotten the necromancer is, and he'll find out sooner or later (My money is on level 6 when the necromancer learns Animate Dead), there's gonna be conflict. The necromancer can't hide his legions of undead forever. My question is, how bad does the main plotline Big Bad Evil Guy have to be for the standard Paladin to say, "Yes, Mr. Necromancer deserves to die slowly and painfully, but I need every resource at my disposal to take out this bigger threat, so I can deal with the necromancer later"?

Odds are, if both characters survive, I'll let them fight it out at the post-campaign wrap up session.

Oh. We're not even concerning ourselves with trying to delay the Paladin's discovery as long as humanly possible, then?

In that case...

He needs to be Panis/Darken Rahl evil--the kind of evil that would poison every red fruit in the land because "children love red fruits", with the power to do it. On a whim.

[Babale]

So, of the classic D&D plots, which ones would work and which ones would not?

I'm asking more about the scope than about the particular campaign ideas. Many of them won't work in my setting, and I don't want to use, say, an undead-heavy campaign when there's a Dread Necromancer who can just say "Undead dragon horde? SWEET! Free pets!"

1) Hordes of Orcs from a neighboring nation are pouring in, conquering the land.
2) As 1, but the hordes of Orcs are led by an Evil with a Capital E Sorcerer bent on world domination.
3) Power-mad wizard has unleashed the Hordes of Hell upon the Material Plane.
4) God-eating Abomination is threatening the world's very existence.
5) The king has been Dominated by his most trusted adviser, who turns out to be an evil lich.
6) The Evil Empire must be overthrown.
7) Nothing can die. If you kill it, it gets back up after a few minutes, hungry and out for revenge.

[TuggyNE]

7) Nothing can die. If you kill it, it gets back up after a few minutes, hungry and out for revenge.

*coughSilverClawShiftcough*

Although I think the LG vs. reanimating-warlock question came up in a different campaign of hers. :smalltongue: (The LG in question wasn't a pally, though.)

[Dwy]

I think all of you missed the point of my question.

Obviously, as soon as the Paladin finds out how evil and rotten the necromancer is, and he'll find out sooner or later (My money is on level 6 when the necromancer learns Animate Dead), there's gonna be conflict. The necromancer can't hide his legions of undead forever. My question is, how bad does the main plotline Big Bad Evil Guy have to be for the standard Paladin to say, "Yes, Mr. Necromancer deserves to die slowly and painfully, but I need every resource at my disposal to take out this bigger threat, so I can deal with the necromancer later"?

Odds are, if both characters survive, I'll let them fight it out at the post-campaign wrap up session.

Thing about roleplay, pen-and-paper or other kinds, is that it will never work if the players aren't interested in working as a party. Tylenol has a few very good ideas as to how one could go about this practically, but they're all doomed to fail if the players would rather have a character that is 100% true to their evil goals/paladin codes than they'd like to keep the game going.

My best shot would be this, as many others have pointed out before me:
REROLL.
Let the paladin play a lawful good warrior-type who is not actually a paladin, and thus more free to make independent (but still morally similiar) decisions.
Let the DN play something evil that doesn't require raising dead and eating babies.

If that isn't possible either, you really need to break the Godzilla treshold.
The BBEG would need to be so powerful that the DN can assume he'd be close to his priced immortality if they defeat him, and so extremely evil (TerraNazis even!) that the Paladin can't spare a single moment to kill the DN before the BBEG hits the dust.

[Babale]

I don't understand why you guys thing that the players

aren't interested in working as a party.
The players are perfectly fine with the in-party conflict and are looking forwards to it, but they want to eventually work out their differences to a sufficient degree to work together.

[Particle_Man]

The players are perfectly fine with the in-party conflict and are looking forwards to it, but they want to eventually work out their differences to a sufficient degree to work together.

Is the paladin never to discover the "killed children for medical experiments" part? Because if the paladin ever discovers that, I don't see them putting apart their differences for one second longer than it takes to defeat the BBEG (assumign the BBEG is so evil that 100% of the paladin's priorities are directed to defeating the BBEG - and assuming that the paladin can find no one else in the entire game world that is as well or better suited to help the paladin defeat the BBEG than the DN).

[Dwy]

I don't understand why you guys thing that the players

The players are perfectly fine with the in-party conflict and are looking forwards to it, but they want to eventually work out their differences to a sufficient degree to work together.

In that case, I am sorry.
It'd probably take something pretty serious for the paladin to need the DN, and some very promising way the DN can expect to take advantage of the situation for him to be interested. Also, they'd need some kind of a temporary compromise, in order to stay in conflict, not open war. (And imagine the fun of it when one of the players break said compromise!)

Good luck!

[Lonely Tylenol]

So, of the classic D&D plots, which ones would work and which ones would not?

1) Hordes of Orcs from a neighboring nation are pouring in, conquering the land.

Probably not; there is no single component in a horde of Orcs that screams "I alone am powerless to stop this foe, and I need all the assistance I can gather in order to stop them". I mean, the only thing that's scary about Orcs past a certain level is quantity, and you do need people for that, but none so specialized that you can't discriminate.


2) As 1, but the hordes of Orcs are led by an Evil with a Capital E Sorcerer bent on world domination.

Yes. Now you have both a foe that is capable of leveling fields of foes on his own, plus the backing of fields of foes of his own. You now need to fight on both the quality (Sorcerer) and the quantity (hordes of Orcs) front, which means that you will likely need both somebody who is very powerful on their own right as well as capable of fighting foes on a larger scale and... What's that? Necromancers have minions?

Of course, the big "wild card" here is "just how evil is this Sorcerer?"


3) Power-mad wizard has unleashed the Hordes of Hell upon the Material Plane.

Chalk this under "maybe". Depending on how this goes, you can categorize this under 2), in which case the answer is yet, but if it is simply a matter of stopping one or the other, then you can probably be more discriminating.

Then again... Hordes of Hell...


4) God-eating Abomination is threatening the world's very existence.

Absolutely. Incredibly powerful foe, and there's no greater evil than 'mass destruction' evil. Plus, this is a cause they can likely unite under, as nobody wants to die (your DN certainly doesn't).


5) The king has been Dominated by his most trusted adviser, who turns out to be an evil lich.

Not at all. In fact, your Dread Necromancer is more likely to be the Lich than he is the Paladin's wingman.


6) The Evil Empire must be overthrown.

Probably not. The threat is neither immediate nor dire enough to prevent you from discriminating in who you adventure with. The evil empire is already there; sure, it must be overthrown, but it's not going anywhere fast until you do, so choose your friends carefully.


7) Nothing can die. If you kill it, it gets back up after a few minutes, hungry and out for revenge.

The Dread Necromancer is more likely to be the villain in this scenario than anything else, since his shtick is basically "when things die, I make them get back up after a few minutes, hungry and out for revenge".

My suggestion would be to throw a MacGuffin into the game world that is so powerful that the Dread Necromancer covets it, and so evil that the Paladin wants to destroy it. Allow them to resolve their outward motivations toward this item as you see fit (the Dread Necromancer guy can say, truthfully, "yeah, I don't want the BBEG to nab the MacGuffin either! That would be horrible!" without being unambiguous as to his motive, so he has some freedom to wiggle about, as it were).