When and how is it appropriate to throw effective assassins at PCs?

[FMArthur]

Hi all, I'm statting up a high-damage assassin-type NPC (not an Assassin, just an assassin) to use as a harrying antagonist, and I'm having trouble thinking of at what level he'd actually be appropriate to throw against PCs, preferably as part of a group of lesser assassins. But I'm running into the problem with that kind of opponent: the fact that he'd basically instant-kill his first target anywhere near the same ECL and that is likely to be the first sign of his presence.

How do you run this kind of encounter against tactical, competent assassins in a way that is actually fair? Do they need just be dramatically lower-level than the PCs? If so, how can they survive the first round of combat? Should the party get hints about upcoming invisible attackers, or get ambushed by substantially weaker invisible opponents beforehand?

I guess the dynamic is dramatically different when all sorts of defenses are in play at high levels, but this is for 8th-10th level PCs (haven't finished campaign plan yet). Any advice would be appreciated.

[Taelas]

Why should he instant-kill his first target?

There are many kinds of assassins. If he absolutely has to be capable of instant-kills, use it on an NPC friend of the PCs (preferably someone who has a long-standing association with them and who is no longer necessary) while in their presence; if nothing else, it should get their attention!

Make sure you give them their chances of finding out the assassin is there.

You could also have someone just straight-up warn them about the assassin (or at least that someone is gunning for them).

[Suddo]

So depending on your world its kind of understood that people like this exist. I'd argue that you should never through this guy at the PCs. Instead have him get hired to assassinate some Noble that the NPCs like and have the NPCs see him leave. This causes them to chase the assassin, removing some of the power of him getting the jump.
The other is that if the PCs screw over some big bad noble he hires him and he does kill one of the PCs. This shows your players that their actions do have consequences and that they aren't allowed to do anything. Besides all it means in the long run is that they have to get them revived. This shouldn't be confused with you getting angry and killing them its more that they did something and the logical thing happened.

[Deepbluediver]

For these kinds of situtations, I like to work backwards; decide what you want the outcome to be, then proceeed from there.

Do you just want a tough fight that doesn't actually kill anyone?
Do you want to just kill one particular PC, maybe as a wake up call to the others?
Is this actually a test for your players, where you want to see how many (if any) can survive an unexpected assault?
How many combatants do you want, and how dedicated will they be? (i.e. can they be driven off or is this a suicide mission?)

How well do you know your group, and how well do you think they would deal with the potential loss of character? Are they at a level where resurrections are easy, or does death mean you roll up a new character?
Where and when exactly is this taking place? If the characters are asleep, or have seperated while in a town they might be more vulnerable, but if they are merely ambushed while in a dungoen they are likely to be ready and at full strength.

Is this encounter supposed to be more for storytelling/plot hooks, or for mechanics?

If you can answer those questions, I think you'll find yourself a lot closer to determining what you can throw at them, and if not then we should be able to provide you with some more detailed help.


Edit: went back and reread you original post in more detail; there was stuff there that I missed the first time.
If you want an opponent who is tough, but doesn't necessarily kill your characters outright the first time they meet, make an assassin that isn't just about the killing, but has thematic reasons to hold himself back. Two things that I can think of easily are an "honorable assassin", some one who won't engage in an unfair fight, or attack while you are exteremely disadvantaged. The other is the "fighting to test one's strength" kind of enemy, who doesn't care about money or honor but wants every contest to be a challenge.

If you players survive, the next time the assassin targets them he might not hold back so much. If the players accidentally kill him, then that provides motivation for the rest of his guild (or whatever) to take up the contract and initiate a no-holds barred gorefest.

One interesting idea, that I've only actually seen once, is to use an assassin who isn't a melee combatant. A full-on spellcaster has lots of ways to harrass a party from a distance that don't (usually) result in immediate death, but can turn an easy fight into a life-and-death struggle. Sending magical attackers, constructs, or summoned creatures at your party; setting hard-to-detect magical traps or poisoning random objects; attacking whenever they are involved in another fight, then teleporting away whenever they get to close, etc.

[Ernir]

It's appropriate if the PCs can have some kind of clue that there's someone who wants their head on a stick. It doesn't mean they have to know there's a invisible/sneaky/first-round-nuke guy coming after them, just that it doesn't surprise them that someone was after them to begin with.

This is obviously metagame logic, by the way. It's OK to die (even in the first round, by a guy you didn't know was there), but dying when you didn't even know you were in danger kind of takes the fun out of it.

How overt this warning has to be depends on the playstyle, I guess. If the PCs make routine use of divinations, there are no worries. If they don't, at least make it look as if they should have figured this out by themselves (you burned down the fields of Baron don Cokaina last week. What did you think was going to happen?). Actually having an NPC hand them info is more heavy-handed than I'd like.

As for the encounter itself... the assassin being competent shouldn't necessarily mean they he's guaranteed a surprise round kill (again, game logic). Setting it up so that an unprepared party is in critical trouble and that a well prepared party has a decent chance sounds about fair.

[teslas]

Just some very basic advice, and I'm sorry if its' already been given:

Just because the adversary's ECL is lower than that of someone in the party, it does not mean he has to be that much less threatening.

An intelligent assassin that will use stealth, surprise, and the terrain to his advantage can be a great challenge. He need not have 100 hit points, 30 AC, and +50 to his attack rolls, nor need he use some lame save or die special attack or spell.

Shooting at someone as they're taking a piss, if you'll excuse the lewd saying, is what you'll probably want to go for. Sneak attack dice, even just a couple, a DC 15 poison, and a crossbow bolt (or two) can be plenty effective in making a player feel like they are at great risk of dying.

[Need_A_Life]

Hi all, I'm statting up a high-damage assassin-type NPC (not an Assassin, just an assassin) to use as a harrying antagonist, and I'm having trouble thinking of at what level he'd actually be appropriate to throw against PCs, preferably as part of a group of lesser assassins.Well, beware that the PCs might kill him on his first appearance. Players are tricky like that.
If you want him to be part of a group, then it should be a simple ambush, using a little tactical advantage in the terrain. Fight a couple of rounds, then retreat, if things go against them.

If you want to use him solo, ask questions like: "Who's keeping watch" and realize that a, say level 1 Goblin rogue has darkvision and a +8 stealth modifier before dex and ranks.
He gets a surprise round and maybe even initiative. Two sneak attacks against a lone sentry will be more likely to drop him than you might think. If he drops, of course, the others have to succeed at a Listen check (with a -10 penalty for being asleep) to awaken. Otherwise, they're toast.

That's being fair about it.
If you want them to win, then you'll have to give them something to help them.


But I'm running into the problem with that kind of opponent: the fact that he'd basically instant-kill his first target anywhere near the same ECL and that is likely to be the first sign of his presence.Exactly. That's what NPCs, characters who annoy you, or the character of whoever likes to make new characters more in the group are all for. Ablative armour for the real heroes, see?


How do you run this kind of encounter against tactical, competent assassins in a way that is actually fair? Do they need just be dramatically lower-level than the PCs?A well-built assassin with the element of surprise will kill things around his level most of the time, yes. Consider whether that's a bad thing or not. A simple Raise Dead later and the PC can be on their way again. Or make him lower level and mercilessly take advantage of every rule you can to make the assassin more of a threat; concealment, cover, Evasive Reflexes, teleportation, dropping prone, "disarming" amulets and other protective items and most importantly... running away.
'cause nothing says "smart" like someone who cares more about their own life than their opponents death.


If so, how can they survive the first round of combat? Should the party get hints about upcoming invisible attackers, or get ambushed by substantially weaker invisible opponents beforehand?If the players are aware that people may attack invisibly, then that should be enough. They'll find a way to deal with it.


I guess the dynamic is dramatically different when all sorts of defenses are in play at high levels, but this is for 8th-10th level PCs (haven't finished campaign plan yet). Any advice would be appreciated.So the Warlock has potentially had See Invisibility 24/7 for 7-9 levels now?:smallamused:
On a more serious note, between Dispel Magic, area effects, glitterdust and see invisibility you'll find that most spellcasters have a standard load-out that can handle invisible opponents, whether they've considered it a threat before or not.
As for meleeers? Well, they never get anything nice. Except Uncanny Dodge.

Oh, and you should use poison. Not Black Lotus Extract because A) 4,5k per dose is ridiculous (1,5k if you make it yourself) and B) 3d6 Con damage will drop someones Con by an average of 11,5 points. Enough to kill some characters and render others fragile shells. And a minute later, they have to save again or take another 3d6. Few people can handle 23 points of Con loss.

Drow knockout poison by a skilled poisoner (a couple of feats give +2DC when you use poisons, bringing the DC up to a respectable Fort 17 from the pitiful Fort 13) will still wreak havoc with the party, but if they survive the fight (by killing him or getting him to run away), people won't die from the secondary damage.

[Taelas]

If you want to use him solo, ask questions like: "Who's keeping watch" and realize that a, say level 1 Goblin rogue has darkvision and a +8 stealth modifier before dex and ranks.

Only in Pathfinder. In 3.5, they have +4 Hide (from size) and +4 Move Silently (from racials).

Also, +8 is insane. What were they thinking?

[Godskook]

By level 8+, if your party isn't walking around with an emergency scroll set of Revnance+Revivify, they'll need the lesson. So drop the scrolls at some point innoccuous before your first meeting. 'Death' will only be temporary, and won't even cost them a level. Hopefully, the party will get 'on their guard' after the first attempt. Otherwise, you've given fair warning. Just make sure the second attempt takes a while, cause the assassin wouldn't know he failed right away.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ranger 1/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 5, minimum. Add on one more Psychic Assassin level and then pile on Slayer if you need more levels. TWF, ITWF, Practiced Manifester, and his Psychic Assassin 5 special should be Mind Cripple. Forget the Death Attack, it's nothing compared to knocking someone into a coma with a single full attack. Psicrystal Affinity + Share Pain + Vigor if you want a drawn out fight, Control Body + Solicit Psicrystal for action economy abuse and Int-SAD.

[FMArthur]

Thanks for the input, everyone. Just to be clear, a PC instagib without warning is what I'm trying to avoid here; sorry if I gave the impression otherwise. I think I'm going to play this one extra-cautiously; the PCs will find out that there are assassins after them, and one of the more incompetent (low-level, unoptimized ninjas) groups will encounter them first, making use of invisibility. This will either prepare them for more invisible encounters or give me a proper alert signal if they will definitely TPK when I throw down something tougher. Either way, these chumps will know of the more dangerous competition and have notes on avoiding them in their pockets, being the amateurs that they are. Pertinent magic gear could be found here if I happen get saddled with a Barbarian/Barbarian/Barbarian/Monk party. That's a possibility with this group. A totally illegal potion of Revivify may be distributed in that case.

I'll have the PCs then meet some tough-looking travelling adventurers heading the same way, who maybe they can suspect as being assassins :smallwink:, and then after Spot and Listen checks a surprise round happens when the primary assassin drops one of the travellers in front of the PCs while his lesser colleagues attack from behind. The PCs are unlikely to detect the main guy, but they could notice and start fighting his lackeys preemptively as well. If the PCs cautiously skirt the travellers off of the path, they can find the camp of the assassin ambush group as well as a couple junior assassins tending it, and we'll work our way around the thing from there.

I think I'll give chump- and lackey-type assassins poison, but not the tough guy because he doesn't think he needs it can be pushed into using it later if encountered again.

The leader himself will be ECL 8 and I think I'm going to put the PCs at 10. He (probably) can't drop someone with one attack but will leave a massive dent and can set up a full attack to kill if given the leeway (he'll have to go invisible, move and use Hide successfully before doing so). He'll leave if most of the lackeys die or he gets low on hit points/disabled in some way. The leader has quick and immediate means of escape, but I'll prepare for his death regardless. If he lives, the next time they see him will be more trickery-based than combat-based, involving bluffs and disguises and such since it's dull to repeat encounters.

Sound good?

[Draig]

It also depends on how serious your group is, if you'd like to give them a comical heads-up you could always have the bumbling idiot assassin who hits the wrong target, busts through the wrong window, or even trips mid-attack.

As for a more serious assassin, in my campaigns I have used assassins but instead of the death attack I give them special attacks that are similar to the death attack (such as save DC, time spent observing) but maim or cripple the party members. I had one player loose charisma points from being gashed, another lost dexterity and a third was "hobbled" (only able to move half speed) until they found a cleric to restore them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you go with my Psychic Assassin suggestion, he'll probably disable a given opponent before he kills them, and then it's just a few Lesser Restorations or just bed rest to fix it. He could pop in and take someone down in a single round, but unless he also delivers a CDG it's going to be extremely easy to bring them back from that. Even if the PCs lose the fight and all end up disabled, the assassin could deliver them alive to his employer as a plot device rather than a TPK. The best part of it is that their Int scores will probably run out considerably sooner than their HP, so it would add a sense of urgency to defeating him, plus if he's taking half damage and not even showing any injury thanks to Psicrystal + Share Pain + Vigor, it could get them seriously worried without their characters actually being in immediate peril.

[Ryulin18]

I had an NPC wish to meet the party to divulge a huge secret. He wanted to be in public so they agreed to meet in a city square at the fountain.

Mid sentence I made them all make spot checks. They all failed except for the NPC.

He looks to the assassin that has blocked out the sun, jumping assassins creed style from a roof. He lands on the guy, killing him instantly and in a whirl of cloak he disappears to a rooftop 25 foot away.

I used the 4th edition dungeon tiles for the city. The box itself becomes an awesome roof top area with an alley in between for the less dexterous. The chase scene was amazing!

Assassins are 1/5 the kill, 5/5 the escape!

[Brock Samson]

Haven't read everyone's replies so not sure if this has been said or not:

Unless it really contradicts your story, perhaps the assassin is doing subdual damage? As in: it's his job to capture the PCs, not kill them. So perhaps he DOES gank a PC in the surprise round, but that sap to the head only knocks him unconscious, not dead.

[CTrees]

Only in Pathfinder. In 3.5, they have +4 Hide (from size) and +4 Move Silently (from racials).

Also, +8 is insane. What were they thinking?

Well, it's still +4 size and +4 racial. It's just that they're both to stealth, because hide and move silently were merged. If I were Paizo and felt goblins had to be stealthier than just size bonuses allowed, I'd probably give them the same Swift As Shadows as halflings can take as an alternate racial trait. Then again, goblins get love from Paizo the same way kobolds got love in 3.5, so...

EDIT: Also, I'm currently planning on throwing an assassin at my (pathfinder) PCs. Single classed psion, whose goals are 1) investigate the PCs, 2) kill the PCs to end their threat to his boss, and 3) survive. He'll teleport in (using the random error in teleporting to avoid direct scry'n'die), then get to a place he can observe the party. If his detection seems likely, or if he's undiscovered for long enough to satisfy him, he'll be attacking with big, flashy area attacks and Save-or-Suck effects, 'porting away if the fight turns against him.

The party has several opportunities to detect the assassin a/o at least guess something is up (and search for the assassin a/o raise their defenses), the focus on AoE and debuff powers makes him much less likely to just alpha-strike one PC into oblivion (while potentially making the party scramble to save each other). Basically, boss-level NPC with a variety of powers and backup plans, likely to make them sweat and think about their strategy, but less likely to just straight up murder someone than he could be.

Now... once this encounter starts? This group made an orc depressed enough to commit suicide (without the use of magic), and turned zombie bunnies into weapons of mass destruction (EXPLOSIVE weapons of mass destruction!), so... I don't think they ever end on an outcome I predicted (which I love, because it's usually hilarious).

[Zeb]

A fun trick is to have a ranged high damage alpha striker, but instead of targeting the PCs just hit the NPC bystanders and authorities that the PCs interact with.

Party is in the street chatting with a town guard about the new quest-line/mysterious happenings/maguffin and BAM sniper takes him down and out with invisible ammunition from hiding and disappears. Party has to deal with the social stigma, "hey did you kill him?" "murderers!" "wow anyone who talks to/associates with them could be killed..."

The party becomes aware that someone with significant damage potential is out to get them and suffer negative PR as well as other hindrance to their goals.

Great fun if you can also get the party framed for any of the murders.