What is The Perpetual Damage Machine?

[Harry]

I heard of the trick a few times what exactly is The Perpetual Damage Machine and how do you do it?

[kardar233]

I'm pretty sure it's one of Lord of Procrastination's Dirty Tricks.

It uses Glory of the Martyr and Share Pain to essentially spread around more damage than you originally took, which if everyone is sharing pain and similar you can rack up infinite damage instantly.

If you cast Masochism you can get +Infinite to attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws. There's a lot you can do with that, and it's the basis of the Omniscificer build.

[Suddo]

I'm pretty sure it's one of Lord of Procrastination's Dirty Tricks.

It uses Glory of the Martyr and Share Pain to essentially spread around more damage than you originally took, which if everyone is sharing pain and similar you can rack up infinite damage instantly.

If you cast Masochism you can get +Infinite to attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws. There's a lot you can do with that, and it's the basis of the Omniscificer build.

Then you stick your head in a bucket of water, drowning yourself and have someone pull you out setting your health to zero.

[kardar233]

Though by RAW there isn't a way to stop drowning, so you might want to figure out another way unless you want to die two rounds afterwards.

[marcielle]

Iron heart surge?

[Elric VIII]

Iron heart surge?

How will putting out the sun help you stop drowning?


There's also the 1d2 Crusader. He uses a small dagger (1d2 damage) and uses Aura of Chaos to roll an additional die when he rolls max damage (2) plus Imbued Healing feat (luck domain version) to treat all ones and twos. This means you always get a 2 and can infinitely add damage to an attack.

[nedz]

I believe there is a trick with Lightning Maces too, among many others.

[Douglas]

Then you stick your head in a bucket of water, drowning yourself and have someone pull you out setting your health to zero.

Though by RAW there isn't a way to stop drowning, so you might want to figure out another way unless you want to die two rounds afterwards.
It's much better to cast Stone Body and then Transmute Mud to Rock. Voila, full hp even if you were at negative infinite.

Oh, and make sure you remember to cast Delay Death before starting the whole thing.

[jywu98]

Here's the full trick:
Dirty Trick #2: The Perpetual Damage Machine

Summary

A number of damage-creating/redirecting spells can be used in tandem to create a self-sustaining pattern of infinite damage involving creatures of your choice. This infinite damage can be used for your own benefit.

Ingredients

Share Pain (power) [Expanded Psionics Handbook, pg 132]
Glory of the Martyr (spell) [Players Guide to Faerun pg 103, Book of Exalted Deeds, pg 99-100]
Delay Death (spell) [Races of Destiny pg 165]
Beastland Ferocity (spell) [Planar Handbook, pg 95]
Four or more participants other than the primary character.
A bucket of water.

The Trick

Cast Glory of the Martyr, targetting four or more willing creatures of your choice. These could be teammates, hired NPCs, animal companions, etc. Then, cast Share Pain once per creature, establishing the link directionality such that damage dealt to you is sent to them.

Consider the relationship between the caster and a single creature. The caster deals himself X damage. Thanks to Share Pain, the creature takes X/2 damage. Thanks to Glory of the Martyr, the caster takes X/4 damage. Since the caster gets back 1/4 of his original damage input from a single participant-spell-loop, we need four or more participants to get back the same amount we put in.

Let's do a test run. The caster drops a rock on his toe for 8 points of damage. The share pain iterations mean that 4 damage would be dealt to each of the participants. However, the glory of the martyr spell means that each of the participants only takes half of the share pain damage, while the caster is dealt 2 points per participant, resulting in 8 points total dealt to the caster.

That's one cycle. In the end, the caster is dealt 8 points of damage, the same amount as when we started. This 8 damage starts the whole cycle over again instantaneously, and the system begins to loop infinitely. Result: 4 damage dealt to the caster an infinite amount of times, resulting in infinite damage. The participants take 2 damage an infinite amount of times, also resulting in infinite damage. Given that no time is expended for this to work, this infinite damage is effectively dealt all in the same round, for as long as the system persists.

It's also important to note that if there are more than four participants, the amount of damage will continue to increase, as the cycle will be ending with more damage dealt to the the caster than was done at the start. The approximate formula is: (Original Damage) x (Number of Participants x 1/4)^(Cycle Number). The end result of this situation is infinite damage dealt an infinite amount of times. This is normally not desirious, especially if your participants are not immune to death from massive damage or would like to make concentration checks to cast spells.

The Possibilities

To do more than spectacularly explode with this trick, you need to do three things: stay alive during the loop, power some useful ability, and make it back afterwards.

Staying Alive
The first priority is simply not instantly collapsing as your hit points zoom to negative infinity. I suggest the Delay Death spell or the Frenzied Berserker's "Deathless Frenzy" ability. Both have limited duration, but your damage is no object.

Still, being alive but unconscious (in the "dying" state) is pretty uncool, too. You can use Beastland Ferocity, the Diehard feat, Boar's Ferocity (a Wild feat from Complete Divine), or Shifter Ferocity from Eberron to maintain functionality, i.e. continue to take actions.

I'm all ears for other options, since none of these have particularly nice durations without my Twice Betrayer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=478716) persistification trick.

If you want to cast spells more efficiently, you can effectively share these "life support" spells by virtue of the War Weaver prestige class's "Eldritch Tapestry," the Affinity Field power, those spell-sharing gloves from the DMG II, or by having your participants be your familiar/animal companion/special mount and benefit from the "Share Spells" ability.

Damage converted to Power
So, you're bursting with infinite damage. Now do it with style.

The bland way to do this would be to redirect the damage to your enemies. Affinity Field or Forced Share Pain are probably the best way to do this.

However, if you're really interested in versatility, consider the "Holy Suffering" ability of the Martyred Champion of Ilmater (Players Guide to Faerun, page 185. Whenever dealt more than 50 damage in a round, the next round your character receives a +1 sacred bonus to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks for every 10 points of damage. That's right, +Infinity on your vital stats. Kickarse.

The masochism spell from the Book of Vile Darkness produces the same effect, too, if you're into that sort of thing.

While we're talking about the BoVD, check out the rules for sacrificing creatures. The power outputs (spell effects, virtual XP and GP) are dependent entirely on a Knowledge: Religion check. Combo with masochism for infinite craft-xp/gp gain from sacrificing a kobold...

Making it Back
Alright, you've had your power trip, and now it's time to pay the price. There are two ways out: suck it up and die, or somehow bring your hit points back to manageable levels. In both situations, you should dismiss your damage-dealing spells and let the loop fizzle first.

If you're feeling dirty, go the cheap way and stick your head in a bucket of water. The DMG's rules on drowning say that if you fail your constitution check, you go directly to 0 hit points exactly. So, voluntarily fail your constitution check and go from negative infinity to 0 without any hassle. Talk about baptismal rebirth...

A few spells replicate this drowning mechanic, or other wise set hit points at a manageable point from which contingent healing spells, fast healing, or your friendly cleric can take over. Miasma [Complete Divine] and drown are such spells to consider.

If you're feeling studly, don't be afraid to bite the dust. Contingent true resurrections are alright if you have the cash, and taking the 10th level in Ardent Dilettante means that you'll suffer no side effects even from lesser (i.e. cheaper) raise-dead/resurrection spells. Still, if you're dirty and cheap, snag Revivify from the Miniature's Handbook. It's a 5th level spell that resurrects with no side effects, but only works the round after someone's death. A friendly cleric could pick up the slack, but if you're the self-reliant type, cast/UMD it on yourself in conjunction with Delay Spell, and time it to activate the round after you bite it.

Sample Build: The Infinite Martyr of Ilmater

Race: Human
Classes: Cleric 7/Martyred Champion of Ilmater 5/Wizard 1/Psion 3/Beastmaster 4
Relevant Feats: Endurance, Nimbus of Light, Skill Focus (handle animal), Psicrystal Affinity, Delay Spell, Divine Metamagic (Delay Spell)
Relevant Special Abilities: Holy Suffering, 2 Animal Companions, Psicrystal, Familiar

Not exactly elegant, but that's never been Lawful Good's forte. However, the Infinite Martyr is entirely self-sufficient to produce a Perpetual Damage Mechanism, benefit from it, and make it out alive. The assorted magical companions are there to provide willing participants which efficiently share sustaining spells without the insecurities of relying on teammates or unfortunate peasants.

FAQ

Q: Wouldn't the original damage be split up between the different Share Pain iterations and thus give diminishing returns?
A: In answering this question, the first thing to remember in resolving this damage loop is that damage is not a conserved quantity. The spells/powers involved actually deal damage according to a trigger, not move around a limited amount of damage. All of the damage-related spells involved prevent "one half of the normal hit point damage" from a wound, and then deal damage equal to the amount "not dealt to the warded creature." This means that multiple iterations of Share Pain (etc) result in the caster taking one-half of the normal damage from a wound, rather than [1/(2*Number of Share Pain iterations)] damage. We could also make the argument from the standpoint of the spell-stacking rules, but the result is the same: having a bunch of Share Pains on your character still means s/he takes exactly half damage from any given wound.

Q: I like this dirty trick, but it's not as good as...
A: Yes, there are a few other infinite loop or nigh-infinite loop combos out there. This trick is just a new one with its own quirks, possibilities, and a healthy dose of style.

Q: Haven't you made enough [Descriptive Title] of [Faerunian God] builds?
A: Apparently, not quite yet. ;)

Special Note

A specific version of the Perpetual Damage Machine is currently being used to challenge mighty Pun-Pun. Please go here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546612) to read the details and direct any Pun-Pun related comparisons or comments there as well.

[Harry]

Thank you everyone ! Especially jywu98 and I already know the 1d2 crusader trick

[kardar233]

That's the one. For some reason it doesn't seem to show up on the Way Back Machine, so I couldn't find it.

[jywu98]

That's the one. For some reason it doesn't seem to show up on the Way Back Machine, so I couldn't find it.
Try Dictum Mortuum's blog, under CO Resources. All 4 Dirty Tricks are there.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I believe there is a trick with Lightning Maces too, among many others.

Aptitude weapons + Lightning Maces + Crit-fisher build can explode into NI damage, although it never quite approaches infinite damage.

[Nich_Critic]

Aptitude weapons + Lightning Maces + Crit-fisher build can explode into NI damage, although it never quite approaches infinite damage.

I remember a thread on this a while back, but I don't remember the results of the math. Intuitively, it should go infinite if it generates enough attacks to reliably get at least one crit per "volley" of attacks, preferably more. If that's the case, then the odds of the attack sequence ending gets lower as more rolls are made. Each "volley" has a chance of being the last, but chance that each volley will be the last gets lower each time.

I suppose it still isn't truly infinite, since at any stage it could end. It's actually really hard to reason about. If an algorithm (potentially) doesn't end until the heat death of the universe, is it infinite or finite?

[Kalirren]

Yeah - I think I still have a build in my PM box based upon Lightning Maces/Disciple of Dispater/Roundabout Kick. Every attack (not full attack, attack) by this build starts off a chain of attacks. On a miss, 1 attack is spent; on a hit, 1 attack is spent and 1 gained, for net 0 change; on a crit, 2 attacks were gained and 1 spent, for a net gain of 1 attack. So as long as you crit more than you miss, statistically the chain of attacks is regenerated faster than it is depleted.

This results in every attack chain having a finite chance of terminating. (I believe the actual probability of termination was 7/22.) In those cases in which it doesn't terminate, well...:smalleek::smallcool:

[NoldorForce]

I remember a thread on this a while back, but I don't remember the results of the math. Intuitively, it should go infinite if it generates enough attacks to reliably get at least one crit per "volley" of attacks, preferably more. If that's the case, then the odds of the attack sequence ending gets lower as more rolls are made. Each "volley" has a chance of being the last, but chance that each volley will be the last gets lower each time.

I suppose it still isn't truly infinite, since at any stage it could end. It's actually really hard to reason about. If an algorithm (potentially) doesn't end until the heat death of the universe, is it infinite or finite?The way it worked was that with the proper setup (high crit range, lots of initial attacks, extra attack on both a threat and a crit), you had a non-zero chance of almost surely (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_surely) gaining an unbounded quantity of attacks. This occurred because the problem could be reduced to the gambler's ruin problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_ruin) in which the "gambler" is against a disadvantaged casino. And disadvantaged is the operative word, because if I recall correctly the ultimate odds of "going infinite" were in the nintieth percentile (or something similarly staggering).

Edit: More detail here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11927857#post11927857).

[Wings of Peace]

I remember a thread on this a while back, but I don't remember the results of the math. Intuitively, it should go infinite if it generates enough attacks to reliably get at least one crit per "volley" of attacks, preferably more. If that's the case, then the odds of the attack sequence ending gets lower as more rolls are made. Each "volley" has a chance of being the last, but chance that each volley will be the last gets lower each time.

I suppose it still isn't truly infinite, since at any stage it could end. It's actually really hard to reason about. If an algorithm (potentially) doesn't end until the heat death of the universe, is it infinite or finite?

It's finite. Because it ends.

[NoldorForce]

It's finite. Because it ends.Not necessarily; see my post above. (Also the post linked in it, and the post linked from that.)

[Chronos]

For extra fun, combine the Aptitude Mace trick with the Blood in the Water stance. Even if you don't quite have enough threat range to go infinite, you'll still go very, very large.

[Wings of Peace]

Not necessarily; see my post above. (Also the post linked in it, and the post linked from that.)

Unless I'm missing something your method of performing the lightning mace combo will only ever do an arbitrarily high amount of damage though. Yes the chance of it failing becomes miniscule but given an infinite amount of time in the sequence it would still eventually come up. It has a chance of failure and an infinite amount of time for that chance to occur.

Of course it won't really matter since the enemy will most likely be dead before the combo fails.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As the number of attacks increases, the odds that you will hit a string of misses sufficient to end the combo approach will approach unity, although the odds of this happening increase on an inverse log, therefore it might run for quite some time before hitting it.

Actually, someone ran the formula like a thousand times to generate a reliable stastic, and it came up that either it was going to end within the first ten iterations, or it was going to run some five to six figures before it hit a reliable stopping point. So, if it starts exploding... the target will be a greasy stain long before the attack progression comes to an end.

The greatest odds of the combo ending are on the first iteration... a minimum (and assumed) 5% chance of the combo never going off in the first place.

[NoldorForce]

Unless I'm missing something your method of performing the lightning mace combo will only ever do an arbitrarily high amount of damage though. Yes the chance of it failing becomes miniscule but given an infinite amount of time in the sequence it would still eventually come up. It has a chance of failure and an infinite amount of time for that chance to occur.

Of course it won't really matter since the enemy will most likely be dead before the combo fails.There's a nonzero chance that whatever number you arbitrarily choose, the combo will almost surely (ie, with probability 1 but containing a zero-probability case of failure) generate more attacks than that number. I'm pretty sure that satisfies certain definitions of infinity.

Infinity's weird, and so are infinite limits - especially when countered by other infinite limits and their differing scaling. (This is why you can't necessarily depend on the infinite time in which to "fail", it's a bit like L'Hopital's rule because you're producing an indeterminate value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_form).)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's a nonzero chance that whatever number you arbitrarily choose, the combo will almost surely (ie, with probability 1 but containing a zero-probability case of failure) generate more attacks than that number. I'm pretty sure that satisfies certain definitions of infinity.

Infinity's weird, and so are infinite limits - especially when countered by other infinite limits and their differing scaling. (This is why you can't necessarily depend on the infinite time in which to "fail", it's a bit like L'Hopital's rule because you're producing an indeterminate value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_form).)

It is only infinite if there is literally no end to it. If there is a chance of it ending, then it is not infinite, although it may be Near Infinite (which this qualifies as).

If you had an ability which let you land a blow, even on a Natural 1, THEN it would be infinite. Without that, it cannot be defined as infinite, merely NI, because eventually, the combo WILL end.

[kardar233]

If you can use DoD or PWM (or what I'm using now: Hero's Blade (ECS) and Improved Critical) to get your crit range to 11-20 or less, then you can use Aura of Perfect order to auto-crit. That's infinite attacks right there.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you can use DoD or PWM (or what I'm using now: Hero's Blade (ECS) and Improved Critical) to get your crit range to 11-20 or less, then you can use Aura of Perfect order to auto-crit. That's infinite attacks right there.

Stacking rules prevent this. Also, DoD only works with a few select weapons, and since it isn't a feat, but a class ability, Aptitude won't fool it.

[NoldorForce]

It is only infinite if there is literally no end to it. If there is a chance of it ending, then it is not infinite, although it may be Near Infinite (which this qualifies as).

If you had an ability which let you land a blow, even on a Natural 1, THEN it would be infinite. Without that, it cannot be defined as infinite, merely NI, because eventually, the combo WILL end.Will end? Please demonstrate so, or show why my application of gambler's ruin (and the infinite limit upon it) is invalid.

[Chronos]

Just because you have an infinite number of opportunities to fail does not mean that it's guaranteed to happen eventually. It means that it might happen eventually, and you can never be certain it won't, but still, the most probably outcome (especially after the first few attacks have gone through) is that it will never fail, and will in fact go infinite.

[NoldorForce]

...and you can never be certain it won't...Yep, this was why I was posting the link to the concept of "almost surely".

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Will end? Please demonstrate so, or show why my application of gambler's ruin (and the infinite limit upon it) is invalid.

Infinite means it never stops. Ever. There's no chance of it

If you hit a string of misses sufficiently long enough, then the combo will end.

As long as that point of failure exists, it does not qualify as truly infinite, merely Nearly Infinite.

As a string of numbers increases, the odds of a particular number combination arising also increases, until inevitably, the number combination of a sufficient string of 1's occurs to end the combo.

Your Gambler's Ruin is the very thing which prevents this from going truly infinite, because it states that the odds of a particular number coming up on any given roll is static, rather than dynamic, which means every time you roll that die again, you have a 5% chance of hitting a natural 1 which is one step closer to ending the combo. Even if you just rolled a dozen natural 1's in a row, in defiance of the odds, the odds of the next roll also being a natural 1 is still 5%.

The odds of the combo ending might be poor, and get exponentially worse with every iteration, but as long as that chance exists, it cannot be called infinite.

[Chronos]

No, it's not "nearly infinite". It's "probably completely infinite". There's a difference. And the Gambler's Ruin won't kill it, because the probability of it ending does decrease the longer it goes.

[Kalirren]

Shneeky, you're wrong.

If you had read my first post you would understand why you are wrong.

I know that misses reduce the number of attacks in the sequence. But crits increase that number. So statistically, as long as extra attacks are being generated by crits faster than they are being consumed by misses, the attack chain can be expected to increase in length without bound. There will be no statistical reason to expect that enough misses will ever be rolled to terminate the chain if the number of accumulated attacks in the chain is already large.

The process is a biased random walk in the space of the number of attacks remaining in the chain. Gambler's ruin guarantees that an -unbiased- random walk returns to zero (infinitely many times, if you let the walk run negative). The very same math that proves that an unbiased random walk returns to zero infinitely many times also proves that the positively biased random walk that we are looking at has a finite chance of -ever- returning to zero, or any finite number once it has been passed for that matter. (After all, on a number line, one integer looks much like another.)

So it's infinite all right. It's just not guaranteed infinite. You might think of it more easily as "probabilistically finite." If you get unlucky, your damage is finite...