[3.5]Giving Full Wildshape to Wildhsape Variant Rangers

[Howler Dagger]

How unbalancing would it be? Does it make them tier two, or three (I'm thinking three)?

My reasoning is that compared to say, a warblade, Wildshape rangers have less versatillity at high levels, with only being able to get medium/small animals.

[NeoSeraphi]

The ability to shapeshift into Medium and Small animals gives the ranger about as much versatility as all the other forms combined. You get scouting, you get speed, you get flight, and you get swim. The only benefit that wildshaping into elementals, plants, and larger animals will get you is combat benefit, like immunities and higher ability scores.

I admit that the ability to shift into Tiny animals gives you a bit of an advantage, as most Tiny animals are inconspicuous, like housecats or hawks. Very useful for stealth missions, but a ranger has Hide and Move Silently as class skills, as well as Camoflauge and Hide in Plain Sight. Even without those, a domesticated dog (Small) is hardly noticeable in an urban setting.

Do I think full Wild Shape is too powerful for the wildshape ranger? Not at all. I just seriously doubt it will give you any more versatility than the current one does.

[Mystify]

I think it would help them combatively. The larger forms have better stats. Not that it ever comes up, I'm pretty sure just about everyone who goes wildshape ranger takes something like master of many forms, and gets to turn into whatever they feel like.

[teslas]

I believe he meant the munchkin version of versatility, otherwise known as "ability to kill things better," not what people like us might call it.

And there's nothing wrong with giving them full wildshape if they're walking around with a 15th level wizard/abjurant champion, cleric/radiant servant, and swordsage.

If they're walking around with a paladin, a barbarian, and a healer? That's a different story.

[Godskook]

A SotAO Wildshape Ranger(not mystic) can do all of the following that a Warblade can't:
-Fight exceedingly well at range
-Fly
-Replace the trapmonkey
-Scout
-Battlefield Control(Glitterdust, Web, Black Tentacles, etc)

For versatility, Warblades actually fall behind Rangers, not vice-versa, and in RAW damage, that partly depends on exact builds, since both have methods for boosting damage reasonably high.

So, no, they don't need buffing unless you want to pull them out of tier 3 entirely(which would take more than this, admittedly)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't see the point, honestly. As far as I've seen, everyone who uses Wild Shape Ranger jumps into Master of Many Forms asap, as they should. There's not much point to sticking with WSR even if it gives you bigger and better forms. Even a full Wild Shape progression combined with Mystic Ranger, Magical Training, and Sword of the Arcane Order, you would probably see something like WSMR 6/ MoMF 7/ Warshaper 3/ WSMR 4 for a final build. MoMF is so good, you're not going to see anyone skipping it to stick with Ranger, regardless of how attractive you make it.

[TroubleBrewing]

MoMF might as well be called WS Ranger 6-10.

It's just flat out better.

[Rainbownaga]

Isn't MoMf 3/4 Bab? (AFB so going off memory here). Sure, two extra points of BAB don't matter, but in addition to the skills and extra abilities associated with rangers might be worth sticking with ranger if they got the full list (and banned war trolls)

[stack]

MOMF 7 gives you extraordinary qualities, which means that you will always take MOMF 7. The different types are great, sizes are great, but the real power is right there.

Taking frozen wildshape to turn into a cryo-hydra is nice too, for which you need the increased size range.

[Benly]

Giving them full wild shape shouldn't be a huge deal. It's a boost in combat ability, sure, but unless I'm overlooking something huge it's more raising the floor than the ceiling. That is, it makes it easier to make a ranger who punches at the same weight class as martial adepts, but doesn't really increase the maximum power level of an optimally-built ranger all that much.

[Mystify]

Isn't MoMf 3/4 Bab? (AFB so going off memory here). Sure, two extra points of BAB don't matter, but in addition to the skills and extra abilities associated with rangers might be worth sticking with ranger if they got the full list (and banned war trolls)
If you are doing wildshape ranger over druid or a normal ranger, you are obviously focused on wildshaping. Hence, MoMF is a great choice, because it makes you much, much better at it. And unlike druid, you aren't giving up spell progression for it.

[Coidzor]

A SotAO Wildshape Ranger(not mystic) can do all of the following that a Warblade can't:
-Fight exceedingly well at range

How so? Orbing it up?


-Battlefield Control(Glitterdust, Web, Black Tentacles, etc)

Aside from no-save spells that always remain relevant, without a faster spell progression or better caster level, it seems like their BC would be a lot less relevant by the time they do get it.


MoMF might as well be called WS Ranger 6-10.

It's just flat out better.

You either stop at MOMF 3 or MOMF 7 if you're not taking it the whole way.

And there is still a reason to take WS Ranger 6. I'd say it's more like WS Ranger 7-9 or WS Ranger 7-13.

Giving full wildshaping progression to a ranger would make it less clear cut about what was better and when to leave ranger for MOMF.

Then again, so would giving rangers a spellcasting progression from 1st level, even if it was still as low in uses per day and stopped at 4th level spells.