How to beat a Wizard and an Artificer? Possible?

[AzazelSephiroth]

So this has come up recently in one of the campaigns I am currently in and I am trying to find a way to counter it as much as possible.

First off some background...
On of the most recent twists was discovering a big bad was a powerful wizard, exact level unknown, but high enough to access Disjunction and with an artificer cohort. The main problem is our group is highly un-optimized except for one extreme damage dealing meleer.
The party consists of a rogue... played like a fighter without the hitpoints. A druid... played cleverly but the player is new and doest want to be very complicated. A highly optimized barbarian who can pounce, do massive leap attack damage and has a will save up the wazzoo! A cleric but he is a DMPC and in the last encounter with said big bad, he suddenly lost most of his cleric abilities. And finally me a bard... now I have been a lurker and sometimes posted on the boards for years but I have never been good with spell casters, my bard was originally built to be an IC buffer, a party face and not much else... I was happy with this until we faced this wizard and his pet.

So I need to know, is it possible to be prepared to counter a wizard and an artificer with nothing more than a 12th level bard? Rebuilds of the character are allowed by the DM within reason, although race is not changeable and the character`s base class (bard) must remain the same. Luckily I have a lot of extra wealth as the DM has been very generous with money... so 110,000 gold and I do have access to a ring of 3 wishes... it is party treasure but we have been considering how best to use it so one wish can be mine.

I originally didnt think we would need to be built for spellcasters this powerful but after the last meeting in which his artificer showed off some powerful wand usage and he nearly killed our warrior in a force cage, I think we need to be prepared... and I am the only player left who was willing to take the challenge:smallwink: Will you help a poor Bard out? Any advice, favorite builds from the internet, or clever tricks would be very much appreciated... if possible we want to be able to shut the wizard or his warforged artificer companion down without losing too many of us.

My current char- Lesser Assimar Dragonborn Bard 12
Str16/Dex16/Con14/Wis12/Int18/Cha22

[Kuulvheysoon]

You, my friend, should look into Sublime Chord (CAdv). Eventually gets your bard to 9th level casting.

[AzazelSephiroth]

Thanks for the quick reply!:smallsmile:

I have been poking around and found Sublime Chord, but I still confess, I have never run full casters beyond 5th level before... I am not sure what to do with that awesome 9th level spell power! Plus we will need to potentially face this foe within the next level or two.

[deuxhero]

If the Druid grabs/has Natural Spell, he might not die TOO badly, but the rest of you are boned.

[Psyren]

While the potential power of T1s is unlimited, their actual power is limited by the ingenuity of their players. I wouldn't panic unless you're up against a genius-level intellect.

Getting trapped in a forcecage and bombarded is formidable for a Bard to deal with, however.

[tyckspoon]

Unless you're willing to be *absurdly* cheesy (ie, buy some scrolls of Gate and/or Greater Planar Binding, drop a Titan/goon squad of Planetars on him) you'll probably have to use that Ring of Wishes. If you're lucky, you'll only have to use one Wish, but plan on two in case you need to pull out another spell you otherwise wouldn't have access to or everything goes bad and you have to use one of its 'oh gods save our asses' options.

Basically, what you're going to do is ambush the Wizard and try to deliver the Barbarian straight to his face. So start by buffing the Barbarian with everything you have on hand. Attack bonuses, defenses, whatever- if it could conceivably be useful and you can cast it on him, do so. Now, you're probably wondering, how are you going to successfully ambush a level 17+ Wizard who probably has a fortress full of defenses against exactly this thing? Well, first off, you're going to pray your DM isn't playing like the Wizard is using a Contact Other Plane paranoia routine, since if he is you'd be better off going and inquiring if he happens to need a gardener or something now and saving you both a lot of time.

Second, you're going to make use of probably the single most loosely worded and powerful effect I know of short of Pun-Pun himself:

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

He's inside a Forbiddance? You ignore it. Dimensionally locked? Ignore it. Anticipate Teleport? Ignore it. Chilling in his private demiplane, which permits only those creatures specifically invited, and which planeshifts itself around the cosmology so it doesn't have a fixed address? Ignore it, you're there regardless.

So, basic tactic: Acquire a missile (ie, your buffed Barbarian.) Warp to the Wizard's location. Launch missile and hope you get a kill (this should be pretty easy if your DM allows you to ready actions to perform after the transport Wish. If not, strive to win Initiative.) If the Wizard survives that opening round or you can arrange to hand off the ring and have somebody else use it after the transport, consider using a second Wish:

Mimic a Chained Greater Dispel Magic. Target the wizard, the artificer if he's nearby (if you're lucky, you gank the Wizard while his cohort isn't in the room.. unfortunately I don't think there's a way you can safely guarantee this) and any items they're wearing that might be magical. Give preference to jewelry and other accessory items, as protections most often live on those.

[JeminiZero]

1. Tell your DM you want to quest for the body part of something extremely powerful. More specifically, something epic, with 100 hd or less.

2. Use your wish and that body part to create a simulacrum of the epic monster

This won't garuntee victory, but it will provide a significant power boost

[AzazelSephiroth]

Unless you're willing to be *absurdly* cheesy (ie, buy some scrolls of Gate and/or Greater Planar Binding, drop a Titan/goon squad of Planetars on him) you'll probably have to use that Ring of Wishes. If you're lucky, you'll only have to use one Wish, but plan on two in case you need to pull out another spell you otherwise wouldn't have access to or everything goes bad and you have to use one of its 'oh gods save our asses' options.

Basically, what you're going to do is ambush the Wizard and try to deliver the Barbarian straight to his face. So start by buffing the Barbarian with everything you have on hand. Attack bonuses, defenses, whatever- if it could conceivably be useful and you can cast it on him, do so. Now, you're probably wondering, how are you going to successfully ambush a level 17+ Wizard who probably has a fortress full of defenses against exactly this thing? Well, first off, you're going to pray your DM isn't playing like the Wizard is using a Contact Other Plane paranoia routine, since if he is you'd be better off going and inquiring if he happens to need a gardener or something now and saving you both a lot of time.

Second, you're going to make use of probably the single most loosely worded and powerful effect I know of short of Pun-Pun himself:


He's inside a Forbiddance? You ignore it. Dimensionally locked? Ignore it. Anticipate Teleport? Ignore it. Chilling in his private demiplane, which permits only those creatures specifically invited, and which planeshifts itself around the cosmology so it doesn't have a fixed address? Ignore it, you're there regardless.

So, basic tactic: Acquire a missile (ie, your buffed Barbarian.) Warp to the Wizard's location. Launch missile and hope you get a kill (this should be pretty easy if your DM allows you to ready actions to perform after the transport Wish. If not, strive to win Initiative.) If the Wizard survives that opening round or you can arrange to hand off the ring and have somebody else use it after the transport, consider using a second Wish:

Mimic a Chained Greater Dispel Magic. Target the wizard, the artificer if he's nearby (if you're lucky, you gank the Wizard while his cohort isn't in the room.. unfortunately I don't think there's a way you can safely guarantee this) and any items they're wearing that might be magical. Give preference to jewelry and other accessory items, as protections most often live on those.

Thanks for the suggestion! Hmmm I had not considered that use of Wish before.:smalleek: So if we can get the drop on him, we can launch our super Barbarian into his face! :smallbiggrin: I like it.

But I was also wonderfing, if we cannot win initiative or it does not result in a kill immediatley. Are there potential strategies for limiting his casting power? I was thinking trying an antimagic feild or have the rogue invis+silenced to strike from behind... but I fear he may be able to counter these with ease. Thanks for the ideas so far, please keep them a comin!

[Andion Isurand]

For 25k, you can get an Antimagic Torc (Underdark 73) that your barbarian can wear and use 1/day to surround himself with an Anti-Magic field for 11 rounds. That might even the odds once your barbarian gets close enough.

Plus you can try poisoning various weapons, to get their initial damage in while the wizard is in the anti-magic field.

[Rubik]

For 25k, you can get an Antimagic Torc (Underdark 73) that your barbarian can wear and use 1/day to surround himself with an Anti-Magic field for 11 rounds. That might even the odds once your barbarian gets close enough.

Plus you can try poisoning various weapons, to get their initial damage in while the wizard is in the anti-magic field.He'd be better off getting someone to use Craft Contingent Spell to craft an AMF on him that goes off AFTER he arrives at the wizard's location, since the torc probably requires a standard action to activate (and the wizard can just move away and avoid the effect, and then the barbarian is without any buffs or anything with a full-powered wizard RIGHT THERE.

I suggest he grapple the wizard as soon as the AMF starts up, and try to break his neck with a pin. Hope he doesn't have a tinfoil hat, or a clone, or an astral projection going...

[Randomguy]

I wonder if that wizard has eschew materials? Hit his spell component pouch with shatter. And his spellbook, in case he doesn't have an extra.

And then cast transdimensional shatter (not the single object version), to break every glass vial they've got, including those containing potions, even if it's in a bag of holding. (Transdimensional spell is a metamagic feat. You can pick it up or get a metamagic rod or something)

The downside is it reduces your loot, but you seem to have plenty of cash, so no big.

Silence is another good spell to use to weaken casters. And grease is useful if there's something you really want them to drop. Like wands. Readied actions are your friend.

As a bard, your dispels are as strong as a wizard's. Even if you're not strong enough to dispel the wizard's spells, you might be able to suppress a magic item. Use a metamagic rod of chain spell to suppress all the magic items.

If the rogue has good sleight of hand then he can steel bags of holding and spell component pouches and wondrous items and so on, which could be useful. Heck, you could do it too, if you've got high ranks. And if you optimize it a bit with magic items (or use a scroll of guidance of the avatar beforehand) then you can even swipe stiff mid combat as a free action, without missing out on your attacks and spells.

See if you can get a drop of his blood, or steal his hairbrush or something before the fight (If you can't and he escapes then take a few drops from the barbarian's sword). Use that to have the druid scry on him. When he's ready to get to bed, target him with Nightmare.

Rinse and repeat so that he can't refresh his spell slots until you fight him. See if you can force him to spend some spells, too, or summoned monsters that attack every once in a while. Only works if he's not an elf, though, and if you're willing to do a bit of evil.

And then, of course, there's dragonfire inspiration.

[Brock Samson]

I just would like to point out that the answer people are getting to "how to kill a high level wizard and artificer" is "hit it with something big and pointy".

I know I know, use magic to make the guy with the stick really do his job well, but still, it's a nice reminder that the guy with the stick CAN contribute.

[AzazelSephiroth]

Wow!! You guys are awesome! Thanks for the ideas! I am not sure what we will be doing yet, but I know we will be making use of many, if not all :smallbiggrin: of these plans! Does anyone know if there is a specific spell, power of ability that can help stop the warforged artificer for a period of time? Besides I guess the normal dominate spells etc?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Wow!! You guys are awesome! Thanks for the ideas! I am not sure what we will be doing yet, but I know we will be making use of many, if not all :smallbiggrin: of these plans! Does anyone know if there is a specific spell, power of ability that can help stop the warforged artificer for a period of time? Besides I guess the normal dominate spells etc?

There's more than a few anti-construct spells in the ECS (Eberron Campaign Setting), including the wonderful Disable.

[kardar233]

I just would like to point out that the answer people are getting to "how to kill a high level wizard and artificer" is "hit it with something big and pointy".

I know I know, use magic to make the guy with the stick really do his job well, but still, it's a nice reminder that the guy with the stick CAN contribute.

Well, that's in absence of a Wizard of their own. The only way to really reliably beat a Wizard is with another Wizard that's either smarter or more powerful. Unless you're Tippy. I wonder if he'll share some of the really nasty mage-slaying builds he uses to beat the really nasty mages he puts up.

[tyckspoon]

I just would like to point out that the answer people are getting to "how to kill a high level wizard and artificer" is "hit it with something big and pointy".

I know I know, use magic to make the guy with the stick really do his job well, but still, it's a nice reminder that the guy with the stick CAN contribute.

Gotta work with what you have. If they had a rules-savvy Wizard of their own or a Cleric, we'd probably try to build plans around that. But with a mostly low-op group that's severely undergunned in spell levels compared to the enemy they have.. that Barbarian is the most reliable means they have of a real threat to the Wizard, as long as they can either negate his protections with prebuffs (True Seeing probably the most important for busting invis/mirror images/etc) or catch him without short-term buffs up.

[Wavelab]

Well my personal way of dealing with troubling situations is through the use of superior planning and charisma.

Just a quick thought brings me to an idea, if you have a high enough bluff and/or diplomacy rank then I would advise you get a meeting with one of the biggest good or evil cities(both are equally effective, try the one you are more friendly with or have helped in the past) and convince them that the wizard is planning something bad and he needs to be stopped.

Three things can happen:

1. They don't believe you and get mad or they find out later that you lied and get more mad.

2. The kingdom wipes the wizard and his cohort out.

3. The wizard wins, which completely angers the kingdom and all it's allies, creating a lot of trouble for the wizard.

If #1 is the case then I would suggest faking to be a spy of the-kingdom-you are-talking-to's enemy and that the wizard has in fact set up a trap for them, which in return results in them wanting to attack the wizard from a different angle in which case see #2 and #3.

Now this is just a simple plan, if you really try you could come up with a true Xanatos Gambit which will completely screw the wizard.

Now I leave you with words of advice, play to your strengths and your enemy's weaknesses. You are made for being the face of the party and the enemy is a big powerful bad guy that is a threat to many people.

PS. If a good/evil kingdom isn't available use a dragon.

[Acanous]

With a high enough bluff check and some ranks in [Forgery], you can make them kill eachother. Go mop up when the fireworks stop.