Cleric question

[hunt11]

If you choose the war domain for a cleric that does not worship a god do you get to choose the weapon you get proficiency for, or do you just lose the perk all together?

[FearlessGnome]

By RAW? No favoured weapon applies. No benefit is granted.

In practice? The player and the DM talk. They agree on a weapon. The benefit is granted.

[NekoJoker]

yes, true. no perks granted if no god is chosen.

but as the previous poster mentioned, it is best to talk to the DM. it may go this way:

1- you choose a concept to abide by, law, chaos, evil, good, neutrality. and choose whatever weapon you guys may think that applies to the concept; as an example, spiritual weapon mentions: Chaos=> Battleaxe // Evil => Flail // Good
=> Warhammer // Law => Longsword.

those are some examples that may apply.

2- you talk to the dm and homebrew your own deity that will allow you to use whatever weapon you prefer. of course this may take more work on both sides since creating a deity is no simple task. But it may be an enjoyable one and possibly a source for plot hooks.

[Edenbeast]

If your cleric doesn't believe in a god, where does his spirituality come from? Why does his inner path lead him to chose the war domain? Those are some questions I'd have as DM. I respect player freedom and creativity, but I'd demand a good concept with argumentation, not some "oh then I get these two feats for free" excuse..


2- you talk to the dm and homebrew your own deity that will allow you to use whatever weapon you prefer. of course this may take more work on both sides since creating a deity is no simple task. But it may be an enjoyable one and possibly a source for plot hooks.

That is probably one of the funniest things to do :) I've always seen the cleric as the servant of some deity. Be it a popular one or rather dead one, as in the player is the only follower. I'd recommend reading the Goblin Quest/ Goblin War books by J.C. Hines for some ideas. They're hilarious.

[Elric VIII]

If your cleric doesn't believe in a god, where does his spirituality come from? Why does his inner path lead him to chose the war domain? Those are some questions I'd have as DM. I respect player freedom and creativity, but I'd demand a good concept with argumentation, not some "oh then I get these two feats for free" excuse..



That is probably one of the funniest things to do :) I've always seen the cleric as the servant of some deity. Be it a popular one or rather dead one, as in the player is the only follower. I'd recommend reading the Goblin Quest/ Goblin War books by J.C. Hines for some ideas. They're hilarious.

Well, the Cleric doesn't need to serve a diety to get his powers. It's just that by RAW, the domain granted power for War doesn't actually work without one.


Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells

A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected.

With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.

[Douglas]

I'd suggest borrowing the rules from Spiritual Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm), which specifies choices of weapon based on alignment for clerics who do not follow a deity.

[Marlowe]

If your cleric doesn't believe in a god, where does his spirituality come from? Why does his inner path lead him to chose the war domain? Those are some questions I'd have as DM. I respect player freedom and creativity, but I'd demand a good concept with argumentation, not some "oh then I get these two feats for free" excuse..




A Cleric is under no more obligation to declare a diety for his class powers than a Fighter is to make up a background for his trainer, or a wizard to tell us which magic academy he attended. It's all just fluff.

Deity information isn't even in the SRD. Many Greyhawk deities (like Xan Yae and Celestian) didn't make it into the core books. Some, like Lydia, didn't even make it into Complete Divine.

Also, it's not "Two feats for free". It's giving up the option on another domain power in exchange for +1 to hit with a specific weapon type. Not "free" at all.

[Edenbeast]

A Cleric is under no more obligation to declare a diety for his class powers than a Fighter is to make up a background for his trainer, or a wizard to tell us which magic academy he attended. It's all just fluff.

Deity information isn't even in the SRD. Many Greyhawk deities (like Xan Yae and Celestian) didn't make it into the core books. Some, like Lydia, didn't even make it into Complete Divine.

Also, it's not "Two feats for free". It's giving up the option on another domain power in exchange for +1 to hit with a specific weapon type. Not "free" at all.

My statement might have been a bit premature, especially the two feats for free part, but the essence is there.
Also, there's some misunderstanding here. I said "the questions I'd have as DM", which basically means in my opinion. The way I see it, if you play in my campaign I want to see characters with fluff, written or words. I give xp for a well written background. There's DM's who are ok with players only rolling up their characters and just playing. With me, no background is no play.
That aside, I believe declaring a deity/no deity is a different level than your trainer's background, that would be who's your mentor, and did you go to some religious institution. The cleric's divine focus is more than just the fluff part.
If you play in the Forgotten Realms, it plays even a bigger role for all classes.

[Marlowe]

Oh, a Cleric can have a "well-written" background. What he/she doesn't need is a God. Gods are entities that act as middlemen in channeling positive and negative energy. No such middlemen are required. Druids exist, Bards can cast healing spells, and Clerics get all their class features whether they worship a "god" or not. You might want to call such a Cleric a "shaman", "spiritualist", "animalist", " Shrine Maiden" (that one would fit the war domain pretty well) , "Small Medium at Large" (this would be a Halfling Cleric of Death and Trickery, one presumes),or whatever.

Deities, like pre-manufactured campaign settings, are just a crutch for DMs. They can make for a cool character concept if the player wants to run with one. They are not a core part of the game and shouldn't be treated as such.

[Edenbeast]

Um, no.. There's still a misunderstanding. I was saying the player has to describe his divine focus, what fuels his spells. "Divine" in broadest sense possible. Be it godlike, supernal, spiritual. It's the essence of the divine spellcasting class.

My last sentence was just an example that the presence of gods and believe depend on the setting. A player must realize that when making a character. And thus in FR select a patron, or have a very good reason not to have one, for most people in the world (including PC's) find the idea of spending your afterlife in the Wall of the Faitless rather appalling.

[Yuki Akuma]

The divine focus for a godless Cleric is specifically the Holy Symbol of Pelor, unless the DM decides otherwise.

Also, the thing that fuels godless Clerics is the same thing that fuels Gods: the thing the Athar believe in in Planescape. The Great Unknown I think? I forget.

[Shadowknight12]

I've always seen it as you being able to pick whichever weapon you want. If not god applies, you get any weapon, even the most obscure ones. To be fair, that's not going to unbalance anything. You're playing a cleric, for crying out loud. What weapon you're casually holding while unmaking reality with your spells isn't going to matter in the long run.

[some guy]

The divine focus for a godless Cleric is specifically the Holy Symbol of Pelor, unless the DM decides otherwise.


Minor Nitpick: a sun symbol is the default holy symbol for clerics not associated with any particular religion. A sun symbol may look like Pelor's holy symbol, but Pelor's symbol has a stern looking face in centre of that sun.

[SirFredgar]

I've always seen it as you being able to pick whichever weapon you want. If not god applies, you get any weapon, even the most obscure ones. To be fair, that's not going to unbalance anything. You're playing a cleric, for crying out loud. What weapon you're casually holding while unmaking reality with your spells isn't going to matter in the long run.

I dunno, if I was DMing I could see it either way. Yeah, you choose bastard sword for the cool factor while casting spells, I'd probably be ok with it. But if you were some Clericzilla using spells to increase your size to insane proportions and tried to pick a spiked chain.... that might stretch it for me. It depends on the OP level of the rest of the party, but I might make you eat a feat if you really wanted the spike chain cherry on top of that build sundae.

[Marlowe]

Um, no.. There's still a misunderstanding. I was saying the player has to describe his divine focus, what fuels his spells. "Divine" in broadest sense possible. Be it godlike, supernal, spiritual. It's the essence of the divine spellcasting class.

My last sentence was just an example that the presence of gods and believe depend on the setting. A player must realize that when making a character. And thus in FR select a patron, or have a very good reason not to have one, for most people in the world (including PC's) find the idea of spending your afterlife in the Wall of the Faitless rather appalling.


No. He doesn't HAVE to do any of these things. It's certainly nice if he does, but insisting on it is simply your DM style and nothing more. Seriously, it would be highly unusually for a player to choose to play a Cleric (they're not a very popular choice around here for some odd reason) WITHOUT some such idea. Half the fun of playing the class is trying to fit your ecclesiastical duties and attitudes around killing things and taking their stuff. Still, a player is not compelled to do so and he certainly doesn't have to hand you a double-spaced essay on his character's personal theology in order to get his class features.

I was going to ask you about setting: you say you require background information from your characters or they can't play. I take it you make sure they're familiar with the setting in advance? Or do you take their given backstories written in isolation and make up a composite setting from them? How do you deal with new players that are unfamiliar with the setting? What do you do if a character's background seems to clash with something already established?

I'm not trying to be snippy. I just had to deal with a 2" long beetle with a subduel sonic attack and DR 3 that I just discovered. Crawling on my shoulder.

It does seem that you're demanding a lot more time, commitment and especially conformity from your players than would fly where I am.

[Marlowe]

But if you were some Clericzilla using spells to increase your size to insane proportions and tried to pick a spiked chain .

Sorry for flooding. It specifically says "Martial weapon" not exotic. I WOULD enforce this. If they want reach do what I do, get a Longspear and be prepared to 5-foot step a lot.

I don't THINK any of the Gods with the war domain get a reach weapon. Most get very generic 1-handed d8 things. The most...interesting choices are Xan Yae (Falchion), and Thrym (Greataxe, and Asgardian pantheon). Silliest choice is Bast (Tiger Claws--essentially spiked gauntlet that weighs twice as much for no advantage).

Oddest one amongst the Dieties lacking the war domain is Frigga (the natural weapon of whatever animal she's taking the form of at the time). Since Spiritual weapons can differ in threat range and multiplier, this might actually have some crunch effect.

[Edenbeast]

I have to admit I enjoy roleplaying more than battles. I've been lucky that the people I play with share the same opinion. I'm happy to have played with the same people for many years and I never had to deal with a player who was completely new to the game. In fact, the only one who was completely new to the game many years ago, was me! We have several DM's in this group, and we have our own styles, but we also have some things in common. Like for instance not only handing over your charactersheet, but also a short description of your character. This last part has evolved over time from something similar to your discription to what we use nowadays.

I explain the setting before character creation. I describe the area, the atmosphere and politics. I will then ask the players to think about what kind of character they wish to play. They normally have a week or two (plenty of time even if with a busy schedule) to discuss their ideas with me and role up something, as well as write a history and background for their characters. As mentioned before, I give them XP for this: do they mention other people/npc's, their relationships. They are free to know other PCs, as long as they describe how and why. In fact another DM in our group had us create our hometown, which was alot of fun to do actually. So on average we end up with a background that fits one A4. Although I've seen short stories of three to four pages long! In return the players receive information only their character knows about the world, something they can share with the other PCs while roleplaying, if they want.
The reward is not only the XP, but also the fact that whatever the players come up with, will be implemented in the campaign. Be a villain, their mother, or their farm which happened to be destroyed by orcs leading to a sidequest.
It's two ways, as DM we put time en efford in providing the players with an interesting world, as player we put efford in a well-fleshed out character to interact with the world.

I agree with you, it all depends on the DM and group you play with. This is how our playing style evolved.


What do you do if a character's background seems to clash with something already established?
It depends. I try to use as much as possible from what the players write. I don't like to limit players in their creativity, but if it makes no sense I ask them to reconsider. This is quite rare however. Usually the players ask me first when they have some radical idea. When we decide to use it, I warn them their PC might come across some difficult ingame situations.