Green Whisperer/Arcane Hierophant with VoP

[Palanan]

One of the main NPCs in my campaign will be a green-whispering druid/bard, a leading elder in a tribe of woodland drow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231651). He's very...possessive of the wilderness that the PCs will be traipsing through, although not necessarily an antagonist. The progression I'm thinking is fairly basic:


Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 2/Arcane Hierophant 3

Because this culture is extremely isolated--and not much on trade or metallurgy--magic items will be hard to come by, so adding Vow of Poverty seemed like an easy fit. Here's what I'm thinking:



1st standard: Sacred Vow
.......flaw: Vow of Poverty
2nd exalted: Nymph's Kiss
3rd standard: Melodic Casting
4th exalted: Intuitive Attack
5th -
6th standard: [see below]
.......exalted: Animal Friend
7th -
8th exalted: Defender of the Homeland
9th standard: Natural Spell
10th exalted: Words of Creation

He'll use the Words of Creation to double his Inspire Courage effect, and I figured Melodic Casting (from Complete Mage 44) would allow him to cast a heal spell to counteract the nonlethal damage that the Words impose. Most of the other exalted feats are sadly meh, but these at least fit the theme. (Animal Friend in particular will be useful in this setting.)

This raises all sorts of questions, including the following:

1. Green Whisperer doesn't advance wildshaping, so this build is losing out on four levels of that. Is there a feat akin to Practiced Spellcaster, that would advance wildshaping to compensate? "Practiced Wildshaper" or something like that? I'd really like him to wildshape as Druid 10.

2. I like Arcane Hierophant, but I'm not committed to it; the main benefit is to advance wildshaping along with the dual-casting. Are there other PrCs that would do this and provide other benefits as well?

3. I'm not at all familiar with bards, so I'm open to advice on other options for that side of the build.

[eggs]

1. Green Whisperer doesn't advance wildshaping, so this build is losing out on four levels of that. Is there a feat akin to Practiced Spellcaster, that would advance wildshaping to compensate? "Practiced Wildshaper" or something like that? I'd really like him to wildshape as Druid 10.
No.
But Bloodline shenanigans could do it. Or homebrew.
2. I like Arcane Hierophant, but I'm not committed to it; the main benefit is to advance wildshaping along with the dual-casting. Are there other PrCs that would do this and provide other benefits as well?
No.
But you could use Independent Research for spells along the Aspect of the Wolf/Earth Hunter/etc. line to replicate the effects, or gain shapeshifting abilities from a different source (Phylactery of Change, Psychoactive Skins, etc.)
3. I'm not at all familiar with bards, so I'm open to advice on other options for that side of the build.
The default approach to Bards is to buff Inspire Courage like mad and to see what comes out. But that's pretty gear-dependent. You might want to tack the Song of the Heart feat and the Inspirational Boost spell into your build for an extra +2 (or +4, depending on how you read WoC).

You can use Bard as an engine for all sorts of niche builds, but with the Druid multiclass PrCs eating your levels, there's not a lot of room for that kind of thing. The Sublime Chord prestige class is typically used in high-op Bards to put their casting on the same footing as a slightly-multiclassed Sorcerer. If you plan on advancing this character in a high-op context, you might want to arrange your skill progression to tie in with a level 10-11 SC dip (before going back into Hierophant). Going back to the Practiced Shaper question, you could use SC to learn Greater Enlarge/Reduce Person to at least replicate the advanced WS's size changes for combat maneuver purposes.

[Palanan]

I really like the idea of a Practiced Wildshaper feat that would make up for those lost wildshaping levels. He has one feat slot available, so that would fit well.

But, would this be overpowered? I wouldn't think so...but then I'm not strictly objective here, since I'd like for him to have it. :smalltongue:

[Waker]

Well, it requires dabbling in Pathfinder a bit, but the Shaping Focus feat does exactly what you want.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shaping-focus

[Palanan]

That is precisely what I wanted. Thank you! I shall dabble with abandon.



*goes off to dabble madly*

[Tubercular Ox]

I came to the board to ask for advice on building exactly this, so it amuses me that this post is already here.

The question: Where could you take this build? The basic build has a lot of variables open: Race, template, 10 more levels of feats, and at the very top 3 levels of classes after Arcane Hierophant runs out.

Sublime Chord is the natural choice at 11, giving 17 levels of Druid casting and 10 levels of SC casting. You can cap out with Mystic Theurge for two levels, or if you're into delayed gratification, take two more levels of Greensinger and cap out with Hierophant. If you take the shadow template (with buyoff) you could even cap out with Fochlucan Lyrist, but that's extreme long term planning on the character's part, and there are probably better templates. I wouldn't know, hence the question.

I'm not necessarily looking for a full build, just suggestions on things to look at that might not be obvious.

[eggs]

The intuitive route is Bard 1/Druid 4/GW 2/AH 3/SC 2/AH 7/GW 1 for easy double 9s and, with Bloodlines, 14 HD wild shape. Requires either Alternative Source spell or more involved shenanigans to work.

I'd be tempted to use a major Bloodline to replace the Druid level with more GW and to bump up class levels for Wild Shape, CL and Bardic music purposes, but that sets the character back by about 1 level for half of its career.

You could also do something silly with:
Druid 4/GW 1/Spelldancer 2/Heartfire Fanner 1/AH 2/Sublime Chord 1/AH 8/Fochlucan Lyrist 1
for 19/20 Druid spells and full Sublime chord spells. This one would require Bloodlines for CL purposes and early GW qualification for an arcane casting class.

[Tubercular Ox]

Can you point me to a resource on how bloodline shenanigans works? I'm reading the rules on the SRD and it's not clicking.

[Bard for Kicks]

You could also do something silly with:
Druid 4/GW 1/Spelldancer 2/Heartfire Fanner 1/AH 2/Sublime Chord 1/AH 8/GW
for 19/20 Druid spells and full Sublime chord spells. This one would require Bloodlines for CL purposes and early GW qualification for an arcane casting class.

I totally second this option. I've played a very similar build and it was perfect! (with a bit of book keeping) Taking A.H. for channeling was really useful...since a mouse shooting fireballs out of its mouth was enough to scare away enemies.:smalltongue:

Also, Fochlucan Lyrist is one of my favorite PrCs for druids. The full bab, the decent hitdice, full casting progression rocks! If you don't want to invest in rogue levels (or something else that gives evasion), you might be able to ask your DM if a ring of evasion would suffice (i think VoP lets you get magic items as long as you beg for it? or did I misread that?)

Anyway...mandatory comment: VoP is a trap.

[eggs]

Can you point me to a resource on how bloodline shenanigans works? I'm reading the rules on the SRD and it's not clicking.

Here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7167) a link to an explanation. It's a bit disorganized, but it covers most things.

The gist is that, with a Major Bloodline, at level 3, you pay 3000 experience for a Bloodline level and continue play as a level 2 character with the Bloodline level's benefits. That means you continue, but 3000 experience shy of level 3. This repeats at level 6 and 12 with 6000 and 12000 XP costs, respectively.

Given the mechanic which rewards lower-level characters with additional experience, this means a character using a major bloodline will be part of a level behind the party while the median party level is between 3 and 9ish, and again while the median party level is 12 to 14ish, but will generally be at (or very close to) the same level for most of the character's career.

In exchange for spending about half a character's career part of a level behind the group, bloodlines provide their general benefits (minor ability boosts, feats and abilities you probably don't care much about) as well as the bloodline levels themselves. The bloodline levels are where they get interesting.

Each bloodline level counts as +1 level in a class any time you use abilities calculated from class levels. In this case, that means something like a Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 6 with a Major Bloodline would get +3 "levels" in calculating its abilities, meaning its Wild Shape HD cap and caster level would each be 3+6+3=12. Or to go even more basic, a straightclassed Psion 7 with a Major bloodline would be a few experience shy of the rest of its level 8 party, but would have a manifester level of 9.

Bloodline levels also counts as +1 level for the purposes of skill rank caps, which is where they're generally useful in pulling builds together. For example, without Bloodlines, Jade Phoenix Mage's 9-skill rank requirement makes full JPM progression incompatible with full Abjurant Champion progression pre-epic. But with Bloodlines, Wizard 4/Crusader 1/JPM 10/AC 5 is completely possible (it even finishes with an Initiator level of 20 and Abjurant Champion level of 8, for all the associated benefits).

In this case, they're useful for early Green Whisperer entry , and for hoisting the Sublime Chord caster level to a reasonable level (since Sublime Chord's CL mechanic effectively counts bloodline levels twice).

[Tubercular Ox]

The intuitive route is Bard 1/Druid 4/GW 2/AH 3/SC 2/AH 7/GW 1 for easy double 9s and, with Bloodlines, 14 HD wild shape. Requires either Alternative Source spell or more involved shenanigans to work.


Well, now that I know what's going on... no shenanigans. The wacko thing about Green Whisperer is it only takes skills to get in, not spells.
So with a bloodline you can get 1 Bard/3 Druid/3 Green Whisperer and qualify for AH honestly. Then 3 AH qualifies you for Sublime Chord honestly.

Can you explain how your other build works? I'm confused how you reach Druid 19 and/or what you're doing with your AH/GW arcane caster levels. With Heartfire Fanner and alternate source shenanigans to get you into sublime chord, you shouldn't have to bother with GW at all. Fill it with more druid?

If you're not using alternate source or whatever, what ARE you doing?

[eggs]

Can you explain how your other build works? I'm confused how you reach Druid 19 and/or what you're doing with your AH/GW arcane caster levels. With Heartfire Fanner and alternate source shenanigans to get you into sublime chord, you shouldn't have to bother with GW at all. Fill it with more druid?
Green Whisperer gives effective levels in an arcane casting class, which is 3 extra CL that stacks with Sublime Chord (its CL in that build is just alarmingly low; I was digging for any boost I could dig up). Also, I was trying to be sure to hit at least 2 out of the three parameters laid out in the thread. :smalltongue:

But you're right. Druid's would work just as well, especially if buffing up the animal companion is the main priority.