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hymer
2012-03-09, 07:35 AM
Fairly quirky class due to the special spell composition. It is somewhat difficult to use search functions on adepts, since you keep getting hits on dragonfire adepts and greenstar adepts and whatnot.
I'll be making a handful and a half of these soon (from about CR5 to maybe CR 15ish), and I'd love to see other people's thoughts, ideas and stories. Does anyone know of an Adept Handbook out there I can't find?

Yora
2012-03-09, 08:31 AM
There is usually no reason to make optimized adepts. When you use the class, it's usually to just throw together a low-level NPC spellcaster within a few seconds.

gkathellar
2012-03-09, 08:36 AM
@Yora: Unless you're using them as solid T4 casters. Which they are.

Basically, filter through advice from other caster handbooks. If you're actually trying to optimize an adept, you go as heavy on the PrCs as possible. Grab Turning for DMM, get domains, etc.

hymer
2012-03-09, 08:49 AM
@ Yora: Thanks for replying.
I'm not really trying to optimize them, but I'd like for them to be able to throw a curveball at the PCs. The warriors of the tribe are not likely to do any such thing.
I thought maybe someone had found some interesting things you can do with their arcane and divine spells, some combination which eludes the casual reader of their spell list, maybe.

@ gkathellar: Thanks! I'm thinking the higher level ones could have some interesting PrC options available. I'll take a closer look at their class skills.

Piggy Knowles
2012-03-09, 09:49 AM
I do think Adepts are pretty fascinating, getting a lot of almost exclusively arcane spells, plus a familiar, but doing it from a divine basis.

In any case, they get a low number of castings per day but a decent amount of defensive buffs (the Protection line, Mirror Image, Bear's Endurance, Stoneskin, Polymorph, etc.). Offensively, you've got some mediocre blasting, plus Polymorph. The debuffs aren't great for the levels they come in at. Same with the battlefield control - Web is a great spell, and you get Wall of Fire and Wall of Stone, but the latter two come in so late that it almost makes it worthless.

IMO, the best way to play an Adept would be to take advantage of the spells you can cast out of combat - Minor/Major Creation, Animate Dead, Commune, etc. Focus your low number of castings per day on defensive buffs (shared with your familiar), and direct your poison-coated undead army to do most of the work.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2012-03-09, 11:15 AM
Give them Earth Devotion from CC, especially if PCs are fond of charging and killing stuff in a single hit.

Adept was originally the only class that could qualify for Hexer from Masters of the Wild, but currently an Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) gets the same spell versatility and more on an infinitely better chassis.

eggs
2012-03-09, 12:06 PM
Adept was originally the only class that could qualify for Hexer from Masters of the Wild, but currently an Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) gets the same spell versatility and more on an infinitely better chassis.
Wasn't Oriental Adventures printed before Masters of the Wild?

Anyway, Eberron gives Adepts domains, which can make them much more interesting both in terms of optimization, and in making different members of the class distinct.

One thing that makes the Adept unique is its divine familiar, but I'm still not certain how to advance it. Most feats and familiar buffs are either specifically parts of the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, or require a high arcane caster level to use (and typical returns on the feats don't justify the necessary resources for something like magical training+practiced spellcaster, but you could still use it to make certain Adepts distinct).

What Adepts can do with their familiars is basically limited to two things: Skillmonkey engine and polymorph abuse. For the prior, a 1st-level dip into Expert could put all sorts of interesting skills on the Adept's list which can also be used by the familiar. With prestige classing into a high-skilled casting class (Keeper of the Cerulean Sign, Divine Prankster, &c.), that can leave the familiar as something of a skillmonkey itself; otherwise, at worst, the familiar means a +2 assistance bonus on basically any skill roll the Adept itself makes, or, in the most direct sense, two skill uses to every one another character would do (this is relevant with Use Magic Device-type checks). Regarding abusing Polymorph, by the time the Adept gets it, the spell's CL is high enough that the Adept's pet rat can turn into a 12-headed hydra mount while the Adept transforms into an Arrow Demon or something.

You might be able to put something together using the Master of Poisons feat and Minor Creation (or Hidden Talent for Psionic Minor Creation, for low-level hijinks).

At high levels, Minor Shapeshift and Assume Supernatural Ability are probably going to be staples.

And as mentioned above, Hexer is a really cool class.

EDIT:
Magic of Eberron's Dragon Prophesier and Prophecy's Shaper feats can fuel an interesting Blaster build that would come online around level 8.

hymer
2012-03-09, 12:42 PM
@ Piggy Knowles: Thanks! Quite a few ideas there. I’ll have to look into using polymorph for something scenic as well as effective. Won’t be using undead this time around, but maybe I can use the poison on the arrows on some of all those warriors that’ll be milling around.

@ Biffoniacus_Furiou: Earth Devotion won’t spoil the charge from their Flawless Striding scout, but it may make him feel special at least. It’s a cute ability, regardless, one the players are likely to remember. Thanks!
Hexer is cute, but it’s a 3.0 thing. I’ll have to mull that one over.

@ eggs: I never played in an Eberron campaign, but that shouldn’t stop me from looting and pillaging some choice crunchy bits. I was already going to have some poison in there somewhere. Having the adepts make it as needed seems like a very interesting way to go, and some of them should have a feat or two to spare.
Thanks for your thoughts and time, much appreciated!

Coidzor
2012-03-09, 03:30 PM
Well, at higher levels, an adept could worm its way into the PrC Paladin class and get a dragon steed... Did that just to see if I could, once, though I currently don't have the write-up with me. IIRC, they can even get a demi-supermount going at high levels using dragon magazine feats.

Gavinfoxx
2012-03-09, 04:41 PM
If you want to optimize an Adept, go Religious Adept, and take some useful Domain.

hymer
2012-03-09, 04:52 PM
@ Coidzor: I guess I could just fill an adept up with feats that grant cohorts. :) But then again, I don't exactly grudge my players their hard-earned XP or treasure. But I guess adept isn't half bad for an NPC class.
Thanks for replying.

@ Gavinfoxx: I think I will. Thanks. :)

Suddo
2012-03-09, 05:38 PM
I don't understand why you would optimize an adept outside of a game where you can only play Tier 3 or lower and want to be a divine.
If you want to throw a challenge at your PCs but don't want to destroy them you can always just build an archivst and just not use half his abilities.
Taking an Adept and slapping PrCs onto it until it looks like a cleric is silly. Just have it go:
Human
Expert 1 / Adept 2 / Expert +2 / Ur-Priest 10.
Get a 14 Int and a 15 Wis (Elite Array)
Level 1: 32 skills
Bluff 4
Know Arcana 4
Know Planes 4
Know Religion 4
Spellcraft 4
Concentration 4
Craft (Nothing) 4
Preform (Dance) 4

Increase: Know Religion, Spellcraft, Concentration, Craft (Nothing) with Adept Levels
Increase: Bluff +2, Know Arcana +2, Know Planes +2, Perform(Dance) +5, Craft (Nothing) +2, Spellcraft +2, Concentration +2, Know Religion +1 with the next 2 levels of Expert

Level 1 Feat: Great Fortitude
Human: Iron Will
Level 3: Spell Focus (Evil)
Wow suddenly you have a powerful NPC opponent to fight. He can even Mind Rape anyone he captures and allows you to fiat the whole game away.

Throwing PrCs on top of a crappy class can easily make it no longer crappy.

Yuki Akuma
2012-03-09, 07:32 PM
I don't understand why you would optimize an adept outside of a game where you can only play Tier 3 or lower and want to be a divine.

Adepts are interesting. They gain some spells other divine casters don't, and they get a familiar. They are Different enough to make neat NPC enemies. Just making it an Ur-Priest defeats the point of using Adept, because it loses its unique spells.

Coidzor
2012-03-09, 10:30 PM
Plus it's interesting to see what you can and cannot get them into.

jguy
2012-03-09, 10:39 PM
I thought an adept was also to abuse the CR ratings of monsters. If I remember right, NPC classes are .5 CR for the most point, even lower if you give them to a even worst NPC race. Like a Kobold Adept 6 would be like a cr 2 or something. Have more HP and decent spells for the level.

Hecuba
2012-03-09, 10:47 PM
I don't understand why you would optimize an adept outside of a game where you can only play Tier 3 or lower and want to be a divine.

I actually deal with that particular scenario somewhat often, though generally it's more a 4 or lower scenario. If you're looking at that as the desired balance point, Magewright and Adept are each a fairly good chassis. There are a few specific spells that need to be dealt with (i.e. raise dead and restoration availability), but the 4e ritual system actually makes a good, fairly portable solution there to. It's one of the few parts of 4e I actually liked.

hymer
2012-03-10, 03:33 AM
@ Suddo: Thanks for the walkthrough. :)
I'm not looking to optimize precisely. Something to the contrary, most of these adepts will be magical mooks. The fluff fits, and their generally low power is just what I'm looking for (not every single spellcaster the PCs face should be a major enemy, I feel). I also like that once I get the hang of this, making adepts should be easy. Pretty much apply ability scores, feats and choose spells.

@ Yuki Akuma: That's pretty much what I thought, too. :)

@ jguy: According to DMG p. 38, they're just one CR under what they'd otherwise be. So you can slap an NPC class on a monster and not change the CR, unless you also give them the elite array.
Playing around with CR is interesting, to be sure. :)

@ Hecuba: Thanks for replying and for your observations. I'm afraid I don't have much to add to that. :)