Subjunctive help, please

[danzibr]

I've never understood subjunctive. I've read about it on various sites and I have a vague understanding, but I'm still unclear in some places. I'll list a bunch of options and please indicate which is right and why (or if both are right, what they mean).

1.1a) I wish I was a dog.
1.1b) I wish I were a dog.

1.2a) I wish I was a salesman.
1.2b) I wish I were a salesman.

2.1a) If I was a dog...
2.1b) If I were a dog...

2.2a) If I was a salesman...
2.2b) If I were a salesman...

3a) If I was wrong, I'm sorry.
3b) If I were wrong, I would be sorry.

And I can't think of more at the moment, but if anyone else can think of enlightening examples, I'm all up for it.

First, the reason I have the similar examples is because in class two days ago (I teach math at a university) I started randomly talking about subjunctive. I had a student say I had to learn a foreign language to understand subjunctive. I said I was learning Japanese (semester 8) but Japanese doesn't have subjunctive. She then said I needed to learn a romance language. I asked if she understood subjunctive and she said yes. I asked her about it, and she said it depended on a lot of things, like if it's possible to be what you're talking about, and what comes after, so for example you would say, "I wish I was a salesman" because it's possible for me to be a salesman, but I would not say, "I wish I was a dog" because I can't be a dog.

So anyway, I'll take a stab at answering my own questions. The ones that are correct are:

1.1b and 1.2b: pretty sure you always use subjunctive with things like, "I wish."

I think you'd always do 2.1b and 2.2b also.

3a and 3b are both proper. The first indicates an actual apology, the second is... a possible apology? I don't know. I read this somewhere.

Also, how about if you change the subject from I to he or something?

[Yora]

Since we're talking about english, the red haired stepchild of the european languages, I am not sure if there is really any difference. Even in German, which I think is the most closely related language to English, there are lots of gramatical forms that in English simply do not exist.

In German, the answer is easy:
Ich wollt ich wäre ein Hund (I wish I were a dog) is what we would say.
Ich wollt ich war ein Hund (I wish I was a dog) does not make any sense.

That is, if "I wish I was" actually means "I wish I had been"? Or does "was" mean something else in that sentence?
Also "wäre" is often shortened to "wär", which sounds just like "were", so my subjective feeling would be influenced by that. But I don't think I've ever heard "I wish I was" in English.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

"I wish I was a dog" is a full sentence. "I wish I were a dog" begs a conditional ending: "I wish I were a dog, I would bark all day long".

I wish I was a dog.
He wishes he was a dog.
She wishes she was a dog.
We wish we were dogs.
You wish you were a dog.
They wish they were dogs.

Then you have your conditional sentences, where you're saying "If I were this thing that I'm not, I would..."

If I were a dog, I would bark.
If he were a dog, he would bark.
If she were a dog, she would bark.
If we were dogs, we would bark.
If you were a dog, you would bark.
If they were dogs, they would bark.

So, 1.2a) is a full sentence. 1.2b) is also going to be expected by an explanation of why you wanted to be a salesman, or what you would do as a salesman.
3a) is saying "There's a possibility of me being wrong, and I apologize for that."
3b) is saying "Though I know I'm right, if I HAD BEEN wrong, I would have apologized. But I'm not wrong, so I won't apologize."

[Yora]

Are you telling me a flying japanese cat was telling me something wrong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69A3aL3Yrs0)?

[danzibr]

"I wish I was a dog" is a full sentence. "I wish I were a dog" begs a conditional ending: "I wish I were a dog, I would bark all day long".

I wish I was a dog.
He wishes he was a dog.
She wishes she was a dog.
We wish we were dogs.
You wish you were a dog.
They wish they were dogs.

Then you have your conditional sentences, where you're saying "If I were this thing that I'm not, I would..."

If I were a dog, I would bark.
If he were a dog, he would bark.
If she were a dog, she would bark.
If we were dogs, we would bark.
If you were a dog, you would bark.
If they were dogs, they would bark.

So, 1.2a) is a full sentence. 1.2b) is also going to be expected by an explanation of why you wanted to be a salesman, or what you would do as a salesman.
3a) is saying "There's a possibility of me being wrong, and I apologize for that."
3b) is saying "Though I know I'm right, if I HAD BEEN wrong, I would have apologized. But I'm not wrong, so I won't apologize."
I follow all this, but... the "I wish I were a dog, I would bark all day long" just sounds so wrong to me. Like, there's no if.

[Anarion]

I follow all this, but... the "I wish I were a dog, I would bark all day long" just sounds so wrong to me. Like, there's no if.

A construction with "so" might be more natural if you leave out the "if". That is, "I wish I were a dog so I could bark all day long."

I'm not sure about the dog sentence by the way. I think because being a dog is an impossibility, you can't ever say "I wish I was a dog" even standing alone. It's always discussing a hypothetical that isn't actually true, so it should always take were. I think...not completely sure about that.

The salesman one is even more odd, for the following reason. If you say, "I wish I was a salesman" that could be a present tense statement, meaning that you want to be a salesman right now, or it could be a past tense statement, meaning you're referring to some time a while ago when it would have been nice for you to be a salesman. In either case, however, the sentence implies you're not actually a salesman and therefore it's also a counter-factual and I think it would take the subjunctive for the same reasoning as the dog sentences.

I'm not entirely confident in the above, however.

[danzibr]

"I wish I was a dog" is a full sentence.

I think because being a dog is an impossibility, you can't ever say "I wish I was a dog" even standing alone.
Urgh, my head is hurting.

[Kneenibble]

It's getting too complicated in here.

You can say "I wish I was a salesman." That's indicative past tense and it's perfectly alright. For example, "That room was full of rubes and suckers. I wish I was a salesman." It is contrary to fact, but it's not contrary-to-fact. It's just a simple past statement.

"I wish I were a salesman," is subjunctive present tense. It is a contrary-to-fact statement about the present. There is an apodosis implied, but not necessary to include.

[truemane]

Don't ever change, Kneebs. The world would be a cold, grey place without you.

[SaintRidley]

Since we're talking about english, the red haired stepchild of the european languages, I am not sure if there is really any difference. Even in German, which I think is the most closely related language to English, there are lots of gramatical forms that in English simply do not exist.

I think Frisian is slightly more closely related.



One thing you can try to do, if it helps at all, is to take the sentence you're uncertain about and change it around a little.

I wish I was/were a dog.

Change it to "Would that I were a dog."

If it doesn't make you cringe to make a "Would that" sentence out of it, you should go subjunctive.


I will say that, while I love and appreciate the subjunctive in English, she is a withered and decrepit mood in our language. Her primary use nowadays is to lend an air of pomposity and pretension to the speaker.

It's a shame, really. Would that I could change it.

[Soylent Dave]

"I wish I were a salesman," is subjunctive present tense

No it isn't; it's past subjunctive.
'past' and 'present' in terms of subjunctive do not refer to the events being described, but to the verb form

-

The confusion with all this comes because 'was' and 'were' each wear multiple hats.

'was' is the first- and third-person past indicative (I, he, she)
'were' is the second-person and plural past indicative (we, you, they) AND all past subjunctives.

This means that in common use lots of people also use 'was' for some of the past subjunctives (usually when it's first- or third-person), because they think the rule holds: 'was' feels right.

An indicative clause describes an ordinary statement; something factual, something objective ("I was a policeman", "They were on fire", "We are geeks")

A subjunctive clause describes a statement which is uncertain, unlikely or impossible.

A present subjunctive clause will almost always begin with 'that', and describes wishes or commands.

e.g. "I would prefer that you listen to everything I say"
('listen' is in its present subjunctive mood here)

A past subjunctive clause is almost always conditional, where the condition is unlikely.

e.g. "If I were a dog, I would lick my nuts"
('be' is in the past subjunctive mood here)

The 'if' is often unspoken, because English is largely built around trying to say the same sentences in as many different ways as possible. Just for fun.

-

SO - whether you use 'was' or 'were' really depends on what you are trying to say.

If you're trying to say "IF this THEN that" then it's likely past subjunctive (and therefore 'were'; although you can get away with 'was' if its first- or third-person - it's wrong, and inelegant - but you'll be understood)

If you're trying to say "here are some facts" then you use 'was' or 'were' depending on which person is doing the verbing.

If your clause is too vague for you to be sure, then your sentence is rubbish. Add some words to it (or take some away).

-

Always remember - the point of grammar isn't 'accuracy'; it's elegance.

If your sentences feel clunky and horrible, they're probably grammatically incorrect... and sometimes even if they aren't, they should be.

[danzibr]

No it isn't; it's past subjunctive.
'past' and 'present' in terms of subjunctive do not refer to the events being described, but to the verb form
So what would the present subjunctive of that sentence be? I wish I am a dog? This sounds wrong to me (then again, that's not reliable). What about that hot dog song?

If you're trying to say "IF this THEN that" then it's likely past subjunctive (and therefore 'were'; although you can get away with 'was' if its first- or third-person - it's wrong, and inelegant - but you'll be understood)

If you're trying to say "here are some facts" then you use 'was' or 'were' depending on which person is doing the verbing.

If your clause is too vague for you to be sure, then your sentence is rubbish. Add some words to it (or take some away).
This is enlightening. But... I don't see how the "I wish" or "I hope" or the like fall under this. Or maybe they shouldn't?

If your sentences feel clunky and horrible, they're probably grammatically incorrect... and sometimes even if they aren't, they should be.
This makes me think RAW v. RAI.

[Kneenibble]

Don't ever change, Kneebs. The world would be a cold, grey place without you.

*hugs truemuffin*

*looks out the window*
It's a cold, grey place with me, too. :smallfrown:


I will say that, while I love and appreciate the subjunctive in English, she is a withered and decrepit mood in our language. Her primary use nowadays is to lend an air of pomposity and pretension to the speaker.

It's a shame, really. Would that I could change it.

Withered and decrepit, but like some aboriginal elder out of wild places born to nearly lost tongues, full of forgotten wisdom.

My personal favourite sentence of the sort you describe is from The Tragedy of Julius Caesar: "Would he were fatter."


No it isn't; it's past subjunctive.
'past' and 'present' in terms of subjunctive do not refer to the events being described, but to the verb form

I know that. I'm trying not to needlessly complicate the matter for the OP.

So yes, while technically "were" is past tense subjunctive, its aspect in English makes it, for all intents and purposes, present. The rest is needless sophistry.


If you're trying to say "IF this THEN that" then it's likely past subjunctive (and therefore 'were'; although you can get away with 'was' if its first- or third-person - it's wrong, and inelegant - but you'll be understood)

Indicative in a past conditional is not wrong. It's called a simple past condition.

"If he was there, then he did it."


So what would the present subjunctive of that sentence be? I wish I am a dog? This sounds wrong to me (then again, that's not reliable). What about that hot dog song?

The technically present tense of the subjunctive in English is "be." I be, you be, he be, &c.

Its use is almost entirely limited to dependent clauses. You wouldn't hear a sentence like "be I a pencil eraser," on its own.

[Cyrion]

Remember that practically speaking, the subjunctive is all-but-dead in English. We really only have one common "proper" place for it any more: "If I were..." However, in many other languages the subjunctive is a fully developed case with defined rules for usage that are much more specific than our use in English.

[Soylent Dave]

So what would the present subjunctive of that sentence be?

As Kneenibble says, there isn't one (not in modern English anyway).

It's not something you'd want to say - you either want to say "I wish I were a dog" or "I am a dog" (not "I wish that I be a dog" - but notice it doesn't sound 'wrong' so much as 'old fashioned')


This is enlightening. But... I don't see how the "I wish" or "I hope" or the like fall under this. Or maybe they shouldn't?

'wish' and 'hope' are stand-ins for 'if' in this case (you can think of it as "if my wish comes true" or "if wishes were possible")


This makes me think RAW v. RAI.

Definitely!

I like English grammar, I find it interesting and I like studying where words and syntax originated and so on - but nobody has to do that to speak the language properly.

Language must evolve to stay relevant in any case - which is why a lot of the more precise and formal grammatical rules can now lead to one sounding rather pompous.


Indicative in a past conditional is not wrong. It's called a simple past condition.

"If he was there, then he did it."

If you look closely, you can spot the part where I got carried away talking about subjunctives and forgot everything else about English ever in that bit up there. :smallredface: