Morality Question: Trading Souls for other Souls (D&D 3.5 Alignments)

[Lord Loss]

Here's the setup. One of my players - his alignment is currently neutral - uncovered three people in a town who had made pacts with a devil, trading their souls for one thing or another that they wanted. The first was a little girl who traded her soul to have her doll come to life. The second was an ambitious mage who wanted to be remembered for her magical discoveries, she traded her soul for the creation of a new kind of magical servant (Refluffed water elementals and snowflake oozes) and the third was a greedy noble who waned gold, as much of it as he could get.

The three people had been duped by the devil, of course, the girl was locked in her room and her Doll went on a killing rampage, the Noble was held in place by the weight of his own gold and the mage was held down by some of the elementals.

The character who found them made a deal of his own with the devil, who agreed to trade the souls of the deal-makers back in exchange for a replacement soul, someone who's soul was to be dragged to hell against their will. The character took the leader of a band of evil kobolds (who were fighting a civil war against the neutral or good kobolds wanting to ally the humans instead of going to war with them, but that's another story) and traded him for the little girl.

I didn't make that have an impact on his alignment, because that's not necessarily an evil action, I suppose it's a matter of interpretation (I'd mark it off as Neutral or perhaps even good because the girl is innocent and the kobold is clearly evil).

However, for the other sacrifices, he wants to trade the souls of orc civillians in a forteress he raided for the Noble and the Mage. The way I see it this is an evil action because the orcs are helpless civilians and the Noble and Mage knew what they were getting into when they made the deal.

Thoughts on the morality of this action, and if it is evil, is it enough to cause an alignment change?

[legomaster00156]

Any kind of pact with a fiend is, in my opinion, evil. Even if that's not a good hard rule, trading innocent civilian's souls against their will to free others who made pacts with the devil is most definitely a very evil act.

[Keneth]

Both acts are decisively evil, there is nothing morally gray about trading souls (honorable sacrifices exempt), especially to fiends.

Is it enough to change the alignment of the character? No, there are very few things that can so instantly change someone's alignment. They should rack up quite a few corruption points though and it's a large stride toward the alignment change on the moral axis.

[FearlessGnome]

The civilians are not very good choices. Had the PC been Good, I would have considered shunting them down to Neutral. With them already being Neutral... It would count against them, but unless they make similar choices again, I don't think I would shunt them down to Evil. Depends on how they act the rest of the time, though.

With the world of D&D having clearly defined afterlives, though, I don't think choosing an Evil person to give to a Fiend to save a non-Evil person is unjustifiable. They are going to one of the hells anyway, and while we are denying them a chance to improve themselves, we are saving someone else, right? It's not a 'Good' thing to do, but I wouldn't be too harsh. Of course, nothing is stopping the Noble and the mage from being Evil after being saved, so it may come back and bite the player in the ass, wink wink.

[Namfuak]

Going by D and D morality, any pact with a devil is probably going to be evil, although a good character could do it if they were somehow causing a greater good (although a devil is probably not going to make a deal that causes a greater good, unless the greater good was killing a greater evil, giving that devil some room to be more powerful from the power vacuum created, but I digress). I don't know why a neutral character would risk his life to help the mage and noble in the first place (the girl is justifiable - neutral does not mean heartless), but I would argue that doing so is either an evil or good act, not a neutral one - if he is doing it out of the good of his heart, it is good, if he is doing it for his own gain, it is evil.

If we were talking about my personal morality, I would say that no sentient being should be unwillingly sacrificed for another sentient being, and anyone who would do so is evil. So, even sacrificing the Kobold for the girl would be evil, despite good intentions.

[Lapak]

Both acts are decisively evil, there is nothing morally gray about trading souls (honorable sacrifices exempt), especially to fiends.

Is it enough to change the alignment of the character? No, there are very few things that can so instantly change someone's alignment. They should rack up quite a few corruption points though and it's a large stride toward the alignment change on the moral axis.Yep. Trading unwilling souls to the demon is unquestionably Evil. Either of those trades would be a do-not-pass-go, fall-directly-from-Paladin Evil acts.

The evil-kobold-for-little-girl trade, probably not so much as to drop you from Neutral to Evil. (Maybe enough to drop from Good to Neutral.) A willing sacrifice stepping into her place would be one thing, but this is another thing.

The innocent civilians traded for the folks that knowingly entered a devilish pact, though? That's seriously Evil. That's wicked and wrong.

[Keneth]

So, even sacrificing the Kobold for the girl would be evil, despite good intentions. Or in a sentence: The road to hell is paved with good intentions. :smallbiggrin:

If I recall correctly, it only takes 9 corruption points to end up in Hell after you die. Selling an innocent's soul to a devil would probably be about 4-5.

[Anxe]

It's evil, but it is serving others, so I would call it neutral. The problem is the wording of the player's contract. He's supposed to bring a soul to the devil that is unwilling to go there. The kobold and orcs are probably already evil, so the devil isn't getting anything in that trade. The evil souls would already be going to hell. I thought the deal was the player would capture a good person and give their soul to the devil (along with his own). I'm probably misinterpreting what you meant to write, but whatever.

[blazingshadow]

why not try and make a different deal and give the devil some chaotic evil souls? it would rob the demons of some soldiers for their war against the devils. you might need more souls for the trade but if you are normally fighting some evil organization or some such you won't even have to go out of your way to get them

[Keneth]

It's evil, but it is serving others, so I would call it neutral. The ends never justify the means as far as morality is concerned. An evil act performed knowingly (as opposed to unwittingly) should always be considered as such, regardless of the end result.


The evil souls would already be going to hell. Being evil does not necessarily guarantee you'll get a front-row seat in the Pits. Creatures serving evil gods (while they may still be going to the Nine), will join the domain of their patrons, rather than suffer and dissolve at the hands of devils.

[mikau013]

Why would the devil even offer a trade for souls if it can just take souls that don't want to anyway?

Most stories I've been into the devil makes trades because it can't just take souls and therefor honours its trades as well, since it just take what it wants.

[Bovine Colonel]

I'd say both actions are evil. However, if the player traded his own soul that would be a very much Good act--perhaps even enough that divine intervention could break the contract.

[Anxe]

The ends never justify the means as far as morality is concerned. An evil act performed knowingly (as opposed to unwittingly) should always be considered as such, regardless of the end result.

Then I suppose you have your answer for if its evil or not.

[Coidzor]

This little girl reminds me of the "little tiffany" scene from the first Men in Black movie.

That girl should not have been capable of summoning a devil in order to make a Faustian pact or worth the devil's notice.

There's some **** going on there, and I wouldn't be comfortable until I had her iced and in thinuan.

[Averis Vol]

honestly, it seemed to me that both the mage and the noble deserved their fate. i'd let them rot under their own moral failings (after swiping some of the nobles crushing amount of gold of course)

[Togath]

the little girl is a good act without a doubt, and trading an a misc civilian of an enemy faction for the mage would be a decent act, unless the mage wanted the oozes/elementals in order to enslave a nation or village(as she simply made a mistake), though the noble would probably be a neutral or possibly even evil one, due to his greed.

[zlefin]

one thing i don't get:
this is d&d; why don't you just bind/kill the devil? and or otherwise force him to void the contract?
Also, in the little girl case; powers that be might not allow a child to make a soul selling contract; you might be able to get it straight out voided (especially by a chaotic good deity).
Otherwise; i'd say for the girl's case, slightly evil, but not enough to be a problem for anyone outside a paladin; other cases, definitely evil.

[ericgrau]

Here's the thing though, whatever the leader of the kobolds did it's probably not as bad as binding someone's soul for eternity. This is somewhat like trading a common thief into slavery to rescue an innocent person. Perhaps the innocent person is less deserving, but it's a pretty horrible thing to do to either person.

I wouldn't ding the alignment, but the person shouldn't take it lightly. Merely handing over the kobold leaders soul without the trade would have been a horribly evil act.

[ahenobarbi]

Trading soul of evil kobold for girls soul was evil but justifiable. But trading souls of unwilling folk for souls of souls sold voluntarily to get fame or money? Very evil.

And saved mage and noble will most likely try to sell soul of someone else for carefully worded contract (I think) if you save them like that.

Also as zlefin noticed: you could just call the devil and introduce it to spehe of annihilation :smallcool: And have noble and mage repent properly and have them accept alignement change.

[Elemental]

In my humble opinion, the mage and the noble deserve their fates. Both were old enough to have realised what they were doing. And in the mage's case, why had she completely neglected the study of fiendish entities?

As for the little girl, despite being evil, a devil's lawful nature would be unlikely to allow them to make such a pact with a child. In that situation,you'd merely have to contact any lawful god in existence, preferably lawful neutral, and the girl's soul should be restored.



Anyway, that's what he should have done...
As for what he did, trading the soul of an evil kobold to save a little girl is still an evil act, but not very evil. No alignment penalty should be imposed in that instance.
But when it comes to the trading of civilians, that's... just capitalised Evil. That should come with an alignment shift toward neutral.

[Averis Vol]

well how truelly innocent are the orcs? not to be racist but theyre orcs they have to at least pillaged a city or two in their day. killed a priest, played hockey with a puppy...its the natural order of orcs, so i doubt they're truly innocent.

unless of course i'm totally wrong, this is just my assessment on the basic nature of orcs.

[Coidzor]

So I'm the only one who would've looked the DM straight into the eye when he told me that a little girl had sold her soul and I was supposed to believe she was an innocent little girl and told him to pull the other one because it had bells on, then?

:smallconfused: Really?

[Godskook]

Frankly, your morality question comes from improperly roleplaying the devil. There were several reasons why that'd not ever really happen:

1.A devil wouldn't ever trade 3 souls for 1. Period. That's a bad deal no matter what happens.

2.He'd never trade 'redeemable' souls for an irredeemable one. An evil kobold who's going to hell anyway is not worth it compared to souls of a little girl who might one day grow up into a cleric of a good god.

3.The point of faustian pacts requires that consent of the soul-bearer must be given.

Given that, I'd say your situation would almost *NEVER* come up.

[motoko's ghost]

@Coidzor: Devils are tricky, maybe she isn't as innocent as it first appears but because she was "an innocent" you agreed to give the devil evil souls(which is of course all right those souls are evil and it's for a good cause, right?:smalleek:) and now your players are harvesting souls for the devils without them having to lift a finger, in short they've been conned:smallamused:

[Lord Loss]

Frankly, your morality question comes from improperly roleplaying the devil. There were several reasons why that'd not ever really happen:

1.A devil wouldn't ever trade 3 souls for 1. Period. That's a bad deal no matter what happens.

2.He'd never trade 'redeemable' souls for an irredeemable one. An evil kobold who's going to hell anyway is not worth it compared to souls of a little girl who might one day grow up into a cleric of a good god.

3.The point of faustian pacts requires that consent of the soul-bearer must be given.

Given that, I'd say your situation would almost *NEVER* come up.

The Orcs and Kobold are Chaotic Evil, not Lawful Evil, so they would most probably be sent to the Abyss, not the Nine Hells. So the Devil would be interested in this deal. Also, the souls are being traded on a one-to-one ratio. There are three ''pact-makers'' and three soulds being traded for them. Finally, this isn't so much about these pacts for the Devil but rather gaining the trus of and influence upon the character in question. He's the guardian of a powerful oracle that recently went missing, and the Devil needs some of her blood in order to bring his Archdevil mistress, the Hag Countess, back from the dead.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The character who found them made a deal of his own with the devil, who agreed to trade the souls of the deal-makers back in exchange for a replacement soul, someone who's soul was to be dragged to hell against their will. The character took the leader of a band of evil kobolds (who were fighting a civil war against the neutral or good kobolds wanting to ally the humans instead of going to war with them, but that's another story) and traded him for the little girl.
That's pretty frackin' Evil :smalleek:

Alignment does not care about the Alignments of other people.
It is as bad to rape and murder an Evil guy as it is an orphan. I'm not sure how much worse it is to condemn a person to eternal damnation, but it's pretty Evil. It really doesn't matter how many fluffy puppies you're saving in the process.

Personally, I'd be willing to shift everyone's Alignment one step towards Evil for agreeing to such a bargain or -- at the very least -- have the Devil hang around and try to corrupt them further.

[Coidzor]

@Coidzor: Devils are tricky, maybe she isn't as innocent as it first appears but because she was "an innocent" you agreed to give the devil evil souls(which is of course all right those souls are evil and it's for a good cause, right?:smalleek:) and now your players are harvesting souls for the devils without them having to lift a finger, in short they've been conned:smallamused:

Yes, it's frankly such an obvious trap that my suspension of disbelief would be ruined and I'd be annoyed at the DM.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Trading the soul of an evil kobold for the soul of a little girl (suspicion aside) is minor evil. It's not evil enough to change your alignment, but if you start doing it every week, your alignment will change.

Trading the souls of orc civilians who haven't participated in raids and such is evil. One means you're treading on thin ice, and even a minor evil act can push you in. And the character's already committed a minor evil.

[ahenobarbi]

unless of course i'm totally wrong, this is just my assessment on the basic nature of orcs.

You are wrong. If someone belongs to [ethnic] group that tends to commit evil acts it is not enough to punish that someone (real-life examples are easy I think).

And sending soul to hell is hard punishment.


So I'm the only one who would've looked the DM straight into the eye when he told me that a little girl had sold her soul and I was supposed to believe she was an innocent little girl and told him to pull the other one because it had bells on, then?

:smallconfused: Really?

In such situation I try to save my suspension of disbelief by finding [semi-] reasonable explanations. The devil somehow tricked girl into signing contract (my DM doesn't setup traps like that :smallredface: ).


Trading the soul of an evil kobold for the soul of a little girl (suspicion aside) is minor evil. It's not evil enough to change your alignment, but if you start doing it every week, your alignment will change.

Trading the souls of orc civilians who haven't participated in raids and such is evil. One means you're treading on thin ice, and even a minor evil act can push you in. And the character's already committed a minor evil.

That :smallbiggrin:

[Raimun]

Ok, here's a quest I would actually refuse to undertake, if I played a Good or a non-jackass Neutral character. I'd rather take the third option, either the heroic (whack the devil involved) or the unheroic (walk away).

Pro tip: never ever trade with extraplanars with souls as currency. Sure, you might score a magic sword or some gold but it'll come back to haunt you worse than a poorly worded Wish.

[Lord Loss]

@^yeah, I was expecting it to turn into a combat encounter, I was surprised as heck when the player went along with the bargain.

Also I came up with this adventure on the fly, one of the players in my group called me up the day of and suggested a dungeons and dragons sleepover, leaving me with a few hours to think up a new campaign and adventure, so it wasn't really a high quality thing. I really did mean form the girl to be a naive victim though, I can see the deal going down somewhere along the lines of the devil offering the girl a friend and all she needs to do is sign a little piece of parchment here and sign away a tiny unimportant thing (her soul)

Finally, the players finished raising the orc camp and and the character in question traded the soul of an insane dwarf that thinks he's an Orc (found in Exemplars of Evil) for that of the noble. I didn't change his alignment right away but I warned him that he had been committing a lot of evil acts recently and if he kept doing stuff like that he would likely turn to evil sooner or later