Better Weapon-Dice Improvements (PEACH)

[Deepbluediver]

Ok, a little while back I worked out an improved system for armor (inspired in part by Seerow) which instead of having just regular and Masterwork armor, actually had 5 levels of upgrades (Superior, Exceptional, Masterwork, Perfected, and Legend-wrought).

I've since been trying to come up with a similar set of improvements for weapons, but rather than just add static bonuses to hit and damage (which are mechanicaly good, but boring) I decided to try and improve the damage dice instead. I feel that this will help somewhat with balance, so that players don't feel the need to make insane builds with weird +LA creatures that have 6 templates slapped on just to get a Strength bonus of +50. It should also make the damage dice of your weapon still seem relavent (albiet via getting better equipment) at level 15+, when under the current system your damage bonus frequently eclipses any actual dice roll.

Obviously weapon enchantments probably need an overhaul as well, but for now, I want to start with the basics. The way it works is that I've listed all the original damage dice (for most reasonable weapons anyway) and what an upgraded version of that same weapon would get instead.

{table=head]Starting DD|Superior|Exceptional|Masterwork|Perfected|Legen d-wrought

1|1d2|1d3|2d2|2d3|2d4

1d2|1d3|2d2|2d3|3d3|3d4

1d3|1d4|2d3|3d3|4d4|6d3

1d4|1d6|2d4|3d4|3d6|6d4

1d6|1d10|2d6|3d6|4d8|6d6

1d8|1d12|2d8|3d8|4d10|6d8

2d4|2d6|4d4|6d4|6d6|8d6

1d10|2d8|2d10|3d10|4d12|6d10

1d12|2d10|2d12|3d12|5d10|6d12

2d6|2d8|3d8|6d6|6d8|8d10

2d8|2d12|3d10|4d12|6d12|8d12

3d6|3d10|4d8|5d10|6d12|10d10[/table]


I tried to keep things under control for the number of dice as best I could, but I realize that for some levels a dice-rolling program might be more effective. The values I (attempted) to use for each level of increase where, as compared to the original: 1.5 (aka 150%), 2, 3, 4.5, and 6. I tried out several different progressions, and this was the once I liked best.
Obviously, since dice only really come in certain integers, I did the best I could and not everything is exact. But it's pretty close, and every step up in dice should represent an increase in damage.

I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this, and there's basically two questions that I need answered:
First, how does this look for balance?
And second, would you actually consider using this kind of system in your game?

[Spiryt]

Very interesting, also somehow solves the thing with higher damage weapons (swords, axes) being pointless compared to high/often crit ones, as long as critical hits apply.

Legend wrought being 6 times more 'damaging' than normal seems a bit too much though...

What would be the approximate prices/value of those?

[Seerow]

I'm trying to figure out what pattern you used to determine your damage increases... It seems to be very much random, I can't see any real reason behind it.

With size category increases, the pattern is you double every 2 categories. So you go 1d6->1d10->2d6->3d6->4d6->6d6->8d6->12d6->16d6, etc.

However when we look at your progression, you have almost the same thing, but randomly jump to d8s at the 4th step, but then jump back to d6s at the last step. So it makes no real sense.

Then I figure well maybe it's supposed to be a certain % damage increase at each tier, but as far as I can tell there's no real pattern there. It gets even weirder with the higher base damage dice like the 3d6. (which would normally follow the line 3d6-> 3d10 -> 6d6 -> 9d6 -> 12d6 -> 18d6 ->24d6, etc.



And after writing all this I read the second half of your post where you explain your method. Aiming for 1.5 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4.5 -> 6. This is a decent progression, and deviates from the normal growth progression only because it should be 1->1.5->2->3->4->6, where you use 4.5 instead. Though I do note you seem to round up a lot.

For example with the 1d6 progression 4.5 of 1d6 should average to 15.75. 4d8 averages to 18. That's a pretty significant deviation. 3d10 would be the far closer value (16.5). There's probably other numbers on the chart that are similarly out of line simply because you're using an odd interval here.




As for would I use this? I probably would not. It seems way too prone to size modifier abuse. For example, if you manage to get yourself to colossal with a legendary 3d6 base weapon, you go from 10d10 to 15d10 to 20d10 to 30d10 to 40d10. That is pretty ridiculous base damage, not to mention it would take forever to resolve your damage rolls. This is why with my own damage scaling system I made sure to keep it from being abused by larger creatures, with bigger creatures getting lesser benefits.

Additionally, I do prefer more power to come from the character than the weapon. With this system, a commoner who gets his hands on a Legendary Sword is going around doing 10d10 damage, making him capable of one shotting monsters far above his level if he hits. While I enjoy customization, I think raw power should be coming from the character, and thus the scaling should come from them, not from the quality of their weapon. This doesn't strike me as any better than the already existent magic item tree required of mundanes

[Deepbluediver]

Legend wrought being 6 times more 'damaging' than normal seems a bit too much though...
I tried out a couple of different progressions, and this is the one I like best. I wouldn't expect characters to be using legend-wrought weapons until they reasonably leveled up anyway. The point here is to make the damage dice actually matter alongside things like your Strength bonus.


What would be the approximate prices/value of those?
I hadn't really decided yet; there are a few other things that I want to work out first, like how magical modifiers interact with this and what to do about special materials. But like so many things in D&D, any one aspect that you try to change invariable affect half a dozen others, so I'm starting at the most basic level.
With the armor, I just kind of eye-balled it on what I would expect people to be able to obtain based on the WBL table. For most of this stuff though, it would probably be rare, so that it would be specific rewards rather than just bought at whenever little village the party happened to be passing through.


And after writing all this I read the second half of your post where you explain your method. Aiming for 1.5 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4.5 -> 6. This is a decent progression, and deviates from the normal growth progression only because it should be 1->1.5->2->3->4->6, where you use 4.5 instead. Though I do note you seem to round up a lot.
I didn't realize how the size-increases where laid out. I was simply trying to maintain a noticable-but-not-ridiculous increase over the previous level, so my line of thinking was more like "Superior is 50% better than Regular, Exceptional is 33% better than Superior, Masterwork is 50% better than Exceptional, etc".


For example with the 1d6 progression 4.5 of 1d6 should average to 15.75. 4d8 averages to 18. That's a pretty significant deviation. 3d10 would be the far closer value (16.5). There's probably other numbers on the chart that are similarly out of line simply because you're using an odd interval here.
I don't really have a pattern to the number or size of dice that I used when laying this out. Mostly I just aimed to get as close to the given value as possible while increasing the minimum possible roll, the maximum possible roll, and the average roll. Hence why I picked 4 smaller dice rather than 3 larger ones. Secondary considerations where keeping the number of dice used under control, otherwise I would just have everything be some value of d4s, which give the tightest control over the damage range.
It's not perfect, I admit that; if I actually do a full write-up for altering weapons, I'll go back and review some of the more unusual combinations.


As for would I use this? I probably would not. It seems way too prone to size modifier abuse. For example, if you manage to get yourself to colossal with a legendary 3d6 base weapon, you go from 10d10 to 15d10 to 20d10 to 30d10 to 40d10. That is pretty ridiculous base damage, not to mention it would take forever to resolve your damage rolls. This is why with my own damage scaling system I made sure to keep it from being abused by larger creatures, with bigger creatures getting lesser benefits.
Is it more abusable than the other tricks people can pull given the RAW? And how often do you see players reaching colossal size anyhow? As I stated in my first post, part of this idea is so that people playing melee characters won't feel the need to take advantage of every possible quirk and weird design feature just to keep up.
I think that some of the size-modifying tricks where invented in the first place just to give players something to work towards. I picture the following scenario playing out in the WotC R&D department-
Guy1: So after the barbarian upgrades his axe to masterwork at level 3, what does he do for the next 17 levels?
Guy2: uhhhhhh.....I got nothing.
Guy3: I've got it! Monkey Grip*!
I think Monkey Grip is the feat that lets you wield larger-than-normal weapons, right?

Ultimately, I consider it the DMs job to keep the players under control; the system should (hopefully) not make it easy to break the campaign, but I have yet to see anything that accounts for every single combination. A colossal creature with a legend-wrought weapon is the kind of thing I would expect to only show up in epic-level play.


Additionally, I do prefer more power to come from the character than the weapon. With this system, a commoner who gets his hands on a Legendary Sword is going around doing 10d10 damage, making him capable of one shotting monsters far above his level if he hits. While I enjoy customization, I think raw power should be coming from the character, and thus the scaling should come from them, not from the quality of their weapon. This doesn't strike me as any better than the already existent magic item tree required of mundanes
Yes the commoner issue is theoretically possible, but exceedingly unlikely; I would wonder what kind of situation you where in that commoners where getting ahold of legend-wrought weapons.
As I said, D&D is incredibly interconnected; no one fix is going to solve every problem. I'm working on a set of fixes for the individual classes as well, and if I completely redo weapons, I would probably add in additional magic-weapon modifiers for weapons or items that would help casters, so they also need to spend gold on enchanted weapons to be fully optimized.

Part of this kind of system would be design choice; I like the idea that a there are kinds of equipment that can make your character better, no matter what level he is. This would just be one step in reworking the weapon system, but I needed to have a good foundation before I attempt to work on everything else. I appreciate your comments all the same, and I will definitely think over them.