Apititude Weapon, Tashalatora, and the Schizo-Warrior

[Snowbluff]

So! Aptitude Weapon is a +1 weapon enhancement that lets you apply benefits of feats that onlt affect certain weapons to whatever whit this enhancement. Now, I have a few questions.

So I have a Tashaltora PSW. She has Unarmed Strikes as her weapon, and an Aptitude Necklace of Natural Weapons (Claws, Unarmed Strike) +1. She uses Graft Weapon to graft her own Unarmed Attacks to each of her hands. So she has a Pair of Unarmed Strikes, right? So she can apply her Rapidstrike (Claws) to her newly formed Unarmed Strikes. Does applying the RapidStrike to her US keep her from applying it to her Claws of the Beast as well? Or does it work like Weapon Focus would, granting the benefit to each?

My personal suggestion here is the feat-based build I have affectionately dubbed the Schizo-Warrior. I'm not going to build it, but it's essential a TWF Scimmy fighter with the Lightning Maces, Three Mountains, Hammer's Edge, and a the feat that lets you AoO with TWF. Using pairs of hits (or consecutive hits with an inividual weapon for Three Mountains) you knock Prone, Daze, and Nauseate your target, effectively shutting down you target while still putting out the damage with Lightning Maces (Imp Crit for your Aptitude Scimmies). The layers of contingency make it great even versus monsters with good Fort scores.

Also, PSW makes good entry if you want to bring High Sword Low Axe as well, which will also have good Reach with Expansion and Metamorphosis (choose a form with good Dex if you do).

[Cog]

She uses Graft Weapon to graft her own Unarmed Attacks to each of her hands.
Graft Weapon requires a weapon you can use in one hand. Unless you're holding your entire body in either hand, it's an invalid target. Futher, you only have one unarmed strike, so it's either under the effect of this power or not - you can't graft it to one hand and then graft it to the other hand as well (unless you want to play jumprope with yourself, maybe).


Does applying the RapidStrike to her US keep her from applying it to her Claws of the Beast as well?
Graft Weapon specifically overrides any existing Claws of the Beast attacks. Without hands, you have no claws either.


I'm not going to build it, but it's essential a TWF Scimmy fighter with the Lightning Maces, Three Mountains, Hammer's Edge, and a the feat that lets you AoO with TWF.
Curmudgeon presents a convincing argument for the widest reading of Aptitude not working. I think it's in the latest Q&A thread, if you'd like to search for it.

[Urpriest]

In any case, you can't use any other weapons if you use Claws of the Beast, period. It's right there in the power text.

[Cog]

In any case, you can't use any other weapons if you use Claws of the Beast, period. It's right there in the power text.
This, too. I had thought the intent was to pile buffs on the unarmed strikes and gain the advantage of iteratives, but I see I partly misunderstood.

[Snowbluff]

Graft Weapon requires a weapon you can use in one hand. Unless you're holding your entire body in either hand, it's an invalid target. Futher, you only have one unarmed strike, so it's either under the effect of this power or not - you can't graft it to one hand and then graft it to the other hand as well (unless you want to play jumprope with yourself, maybe).


Graft Weapon specifically overrides any existing Claws of the Beast attacks. Without hands, you have no claws either.


Curmudgeon presents a convincing argument for the widest reading of Aptitude not working. I think it's in the latest Q&A thread, if you'd like to search for it.

Unarmed Strikes are Light weapons, yes? IIRC it means you can use them on one hand (Though, I think it says somewhere specifically that they cannot be offhanded...). Only having one might be a problem though, can I get an SRD source for that?

Playing jump sounds like fun. :smallbiggrin:

As for the Claws, they are still there, I jsut can not swing with them. For my purposes, this is fine.

About using the Weapon Styles, at the very least Lightning Mace should work, since it specifies to a weapon, if you are being picky. I'll go a looking anyway, thanks for the head up.


In any case, you can't use any other weapons if you use Claws of the Beast, period. It's right there in the power text.

I was planning on grabbing Beast Strike to add my claw Damage to my Unarmed Strikes. Using the claws as well was probably never going to happen anyway, especially since I would be getting more attacks with Snap Kick, BaB, and FoB progression.

Thanks you for the help guys ^^

EDIT: I looked at Curm's argument, and I am not very convinced. While the examples shown are the weapon is chosen, the wording does not back it up. As for the Unarmed Strike's Snap Kick counting I can agree with. Rapidstrike should work anyway, (and I am going to assume the weapon has to meet the prereqs, which is doesn't say).

[Cog]

Unarmed Strikes are Light weapons, yes? IIRC it means you can use them on one hand (Though, I think it says somewhere specifically that they cannot be offhanded...).
The requirement is not for a one-handed or light weapon. The requirement is for a weapon that can be wielded in one hand. When folks wield themselves in one hand, it's generally material for an indecent exposure charge, not for a combat situation.


Only having one might be a problem though, can I get an SRD source for that?
It's not an explicit quote so much as a result of the rules. If your first unarmed strike is made of your entire body (as you can use any part of your body to make it), what is your second unarmed strike made of?


About using the Weapon Styles, at the very least Lightning Mace should work, since it specifies to a weapon, if you are being picky. I'll go a looking anyway, thanks for the head up.
That's precisely the problem. It specifies a weapon, rather than letting you choose one as Weapon Focus and the like do.

[Snowbluff]

The requirement is not for a one-handed or light weapon. The requirement is for a weapon that can be wielded in one hand. When folks wield themselves in one hand, it's generally material for an indecent exposure charge, not for a combat situation.


It's not an explicit quote so much as a result of the rules. If your first unarmed strike is made of your entire body (as you can use any part of your body to make it), what is your second unarmed strike made of?


That's precisely the problem. It specifies a weapon, rather than letting you choose one as Weapon Focus and the like do.

Well, you can wield light weapons in one hand. SO, yeah, it would be a big deal. I think I have a work around. I am pretty sure I can wield Gauntlets with my hand(s), which should be tremendously more RAW and RAI friendly.

My second Unarmed Strike is made with my eyebrows, and the fact that I eat people! lol jk... That was my WS Ranger...

Well, it never says the weapon has to be specified, which is my primary problem with the ruling. It says a particular weapon, and that's all. I'll avoid making non-RAW uses of it, anyway. :l

[JadePhoenix]

Curmudgeon presents a convincing argument for the widest reading of Aptitude not working. I think it's in the latest Q&A thread, if you'd like to search for it.

RAI is so obvious here that I'm surprised it took this long for people to realize it's not supposed to work.

[Cog]

RAI is so obvious here that I'm surprised it took this long for people to realize it's not supposed to work.
I'm willing to bet most of the people who thought it did work didn't think it was supposed to work. Locate City bomb, etc.

[JadePhoenix]

I'm willing to bet most of the people who thought it did work didn't think it was supposed to work. Locate City bomb, etc.

Which is funny since both this and Locate City Bomb don't work by RAW

[Cog]

Which is funny since both this and Locate City Bomb don't work by RAW
Thus me choosing it as an example of a similar situation, yes. :smalltongue:

Anyway, back on topic:


Well, you can wield light weapons in one hand. SO, yeah, it would be a big deal. I think I have a work around. I am pretty sure I can wield Gauntlets with my hand(s), which should be tremendously more RAW and RAI friendly.
The key word that you're still ignoring here is "in". I can show you plenty of photos of people wielding a sword, a mace, or a club in one hand. Can you show me somebody wielding an unarmed strike in their hand?


Well, it never says the weapon has to be specified, which is my primary problem with the ruling. It says a particular weapon, and that's all. I'll avoid making non-RAW uses of it, anyway. :l

...Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the like...
The listed feats all potentially apply to a broad range of weapons and require a choice to be made. A good argument could be made that feats offering broader choices, like Melee Weapon Mastery, are sufficiently "like" those listed; Lightning Maces is very unlike those listed (though, admittedly, more like them than, say, Natural Spell).

[deuxhero]

Which is funny since both this and Locate City Bomb don't work by RAW

Sure it does. You just need to do it the Wight way.

*flees*

[Snowbluff]

The key word that you're still ignoring here is "in". I can show you plenty of photos of people wielding a sword, a mace, or a club in one hand. Can you show me somebody wielding an unarmed strike in their hand?



I actually said I would use Gauntlets. You put them on, you wield them so you can graft them. It makes way more sense than grafting myself to myself. :D

Anyway, I am still only mindly convinced on the usage of the Aptitude weapon. It's not like it terrifyingly IMBA as the Locate City bomb, but you don't hear people arguing semantics on those threads do- oh wait, I guess you do. :P


Sure it does. You just need to do it the Wight way.

*flees*

Tehehe. You get a cookie for that.

[olentu]

Anyway, I am still only mindly convinced on the usage of the Aptitude weapon. It's not like it terrifyingly IMBA as the Locate City bomb, but you don't hear people arguing semantics on those threads do- oh wait, I guess you do. :P.

You don't really hear the in depth arguments too often. I mean it could go for for pages over the meaning of "or the like". But usually people just don't get into it.

Not that the argument would get anywhere with regards to aptitude weapons and the use of "or the like" since "or the like" is too vague for any definite statement as to specific meaning to be the correct. Well with out an in game definition being found at least.

I suppose the discussion might wander onto other bits of text, eventually.

[Snowbluff]

You don't really hear the in depth arguments too often. I mean it could go for for pages over the meaning of "or the like". But usually people just don't get into it.

Not that the argument would get anywhere with regards to aptitude weapons and the use of "or the like" since "or the like" is too vague for any definite statement as to specific meaning to be the correct. Well with out an in game definition being found at least.

I suppose the discussion might wander onto other bits of text, eventually.

Exactly! The wording is just too ambiguous and precedent too lacking for a common definition to be agreed upon!

[Necroticplague]

Great, now I can't the image of what a grafted unarmed attack is out of my head (Read in Heavies voice)"My fists, they are made of even more fists."

[Snowbluff]

Great, now I can't the image of what a grafted unarmed attack is out of my head (Read in Heavies voice)"My fists, they are made of even more fists."

Lol.

It gets worse. Here where I got the idea of grafting them to myself.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2875.0

[Chronos]

Obviously, this is where WotC got the idea for the Chameleon Colossus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153450).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Lol.

It gets worse. Here where I got the idea of grafting them to myself.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2875.0

Yo dawg...

Anyways, since you're going Tashalatora, you are probably of a Lawful alignment, therefore War Mind 5 holds an interesting ability which further increases the number of attacks you get, which is used for the 'bag of puppies' trick to gain a large but finite number of attacks (actually, a number of bonus attacks equal to the number of puppies within the range you threaten). This can be used to 'buffer' the start of your melee combo to prevent premature natural 1's from ending the combo before it can start.