3.5 DM looking for some assistance

[migis]

Just want some people to bounce some of my ideas off of:

I have my party holed up in a Cathedral/safe haven after the town there were in was hit with a Zombie Apocaplypse scenerio.

The Cathedral is a safe haven due to being on consecrated ground, but they need to eventually leave through the catacombs underneath.

The Cathedral is protected because the catacombs are filled with the dead of great paladins.

The hook is, if the dead are disturbed for any reason the Cathedral is no longer protected, and the survivors left inside will surely perish.

I want to entice the party, with some great Magical items that were buried with the paladins to give them that "hard choice."

So a few questions:
1. I need some great bait for a party of lvl 4-5's
2. If a paladin rises as a Skeleton/Undead is he still considered a paladin?
3. Any other suggestions/ideas are welcomed.

[Diarmuid]

1) You need to decide how "great" you want the bait to be. High level paladins would likely be interred with awesome stuff, but I doubt you want to go handing out Holy Avengers to your level 4-5's. Set a value range and then pick some Paladin appropriate items from the items in that range.

2) Not generally. Normal Skeletons are mindless. You could try adding some templates, or using skeleton-like creatures if you want something other than just run-of-the-mill skeletons. Keep in mind that it likely wont make a ton of sense for the Paladins to have turned into wicked nasty, evil undead creatures if their interrment is what's keeping the cathedral consecrated.

3) This really depends on what kind of outcome you want. Do you want them to actually get something worthwhile if they make the selfish, evil choice? If so, then some kind of fight for the items seems warranted. If you simply want them to understand the consequences of their actions, then having the items turn into cursed ones when removed from the graves might be enough, along with having doomed the other people seeking shelter in the cathedral.

[Aegis013]

As mentioned before, it wouldn't really make all that much sense for Paladins to become evil undead. So instead, have good-aligned outsiders be called upon their being tampered with as guardians. Or use constructs that activate and suppress anyone inside upon the bodies being tampered with.

[teslas]

The first reply sums up most of what I'd say. I propose a 4th question/statement:

"4: By the way, the party is a Lawful Good Cleric of Pelor, a N Rogue, a CG Bard, and a LN Monk" or something along those lines.

The party dynamic really matters here. Dear lord does it REALLY matter if these paladins share a deity with a cleric or a paladin in the party. And if that were the case, if such a player had the correct ideals in mind, he might be able to "disturb" the dead in such a way that would not dispel the consecration.

[migis]

I guess my intention would be that if the PC's went for the "loot" the dead would defend themeselves.

It sounded alot easier in my head, but bascially I need something down there to pose as a threat to the PC's that would make sense being down there, in the context of the backstory (Consecrated grounds, over a sealed catacomb).

I like the idea of giving out rewards but with a cost to it, in this case, the sure destruction of what's left of a decimated town for personal gain.

The PC's are not necessarly evil, (well maybe one is a bit power-hungry).

I kicked over the idea of graverobbers being down there as well, but it seemed a bit coincedental that they were robbing the graves the same exact time as the PC's were escaping the mayhem.

Group make up: N Druid, CG Fighter, CN Alchemist (PF), N Bard, Chaotic"dumb" Rogue.

[Diarmuid]

Some "statues" being construct guardians that activate upon the disturbing of the remains is probably the easiest way to have a fight for them without possibly having to impact the plot of the paladins remains being consecrated.

[teslas]

I kicked over the idea of graverobbers being down there as well, but it seemed a bit coincedental that they were robbing the graves the same exact time as the PC's were escaping the mayhem.
Another quick question, have you ever seen a motion picture movie or played a computerized video game before?

[Dr.Epic]

Just want some people to bounce some of my ideas off of:

I have my party holed up in a Cathedral/safe haven after the town there were in was hit with a Zombie Apocaplypse scenerio.

The Cathedral is a safe haven due to being on consecrated ground, but they need to eventually leave through the catacombs underneath.

The Cathedral is protected because the catacombs are filled with the dead of great paladins.

The hook is, if the dead are disturbed for any reason the Cathedral is no longer protected, and the survivors left inside will surely perish.

I want to entice the party, with some great Magical items that were buried with the paladins to give them that "hard choice."

So a few questions:
1. I need some great bait for a party of lvl 4-5's
2. If a paladin rises as a Skeleton/Undead is he still considered a paladin?
3. Any other suggestions/ideas are welcomed.

I don't know. Could be fine. You're not really describing anything completely original or in depth. Zombie survival games (even in standard 3.5 D&D) are nothing new. And you're not going too much into the types of undead or architecture of the church and surrounding area.

1.What do you mean "bait"? Aren't the PCs bait for the zombies? Do you mean NPC undead for them to fight?

2. No. He's a zombie. He has no class abilities.

3. Plan this out more. Like I said, still seems kind of vague.

[teslas]

And in that situation, just throw a damn Holy Avenger down there. It's "only" a +2 weapon for any of them, and if they try to sell it to anyone it would probably spark up the question of where they obtained it. Maybe the spirit of the paladin is tied to it? Maybe it pisses off a cadre of archons that come find them in a couple of levels? Maybe there's all sorts of DM machinations and plot hooks you could later tie into it.

[Adam...?]

1.) By "bait," I'll assume you mean "fun magic items to tempt your players." It's kinda hard to give specifics without knowing tons of details about your players builds, current equipment, and how closely you're sticking to standard WBL. In general though, my advice would be that while straight numerical upgrades are nice, items that provide unique abilities are often way more fun and exciting to find. And therefore much more tempting.

2.) As others have said, if you raise a paladin as a skeleton or zombie, it's just becomes a run of the mill brainless undead. Maybe consider using the Corpse Creature template from BoVD. It might need a little refluffing, but unless I'm mistaken, that should let you have paladin zombies that retain their intelligence, weapon proficiencies, special qualities, and special attacks. The only problem is that approximately zero paladin abilities will actually be useful against the PCs (unless deciding to loot the graves/doom the survivors is cause for a sudden alignment change to evil, but that would strike me as kind of cheesy).

3.) I was also thinking along the lines "undead paladins raise up against grave robbers," but if that's the only thing down there, things'll get really boring if the PCs decide the loot isn't worth it. If you don't like the "coincidental grave robbers" scenario, maybe go with something that could have conceivably been there the whole time. Giant vermin or something?

Probably a given, but make sure the PCs know what actions will trigger the "consecration stops, everyone dies" scenario.

Also, you might consider making some quick item identification available to aid in tempting players. An unidentified magic sword could be anything, but if they know exactly how awesome it is, they might be more willing to risk indirectly killing a bunch of people to get it.

Or maybe there's more mystery to unidentified items? Who knows, I'm really not an expert at this stuff, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

[Venger]

Just want some people to bounce some of my ideas off of:

I have my party holed up in a Cathedral/safe haven after the town there were in was hit with a Zombie Apocaplypse scenerio.

The Cathedral is a safe haven due to being on consecrated ground, but they need to eventually leave through the catacombs underneath.

The Cathedral is protected because the catacombs are filled with the dead of great paladins.

The hook is, if the dead are disturbed for any reason the Cathedral is no longer protected, and the survivors left inside will surely perish.

I want to entice the party, with some great Magical items that were buried with the paladins to give them that "hard choice."

So a few questions:
1. I need some great bait for a party of lvl 4-5's
2. If a paladin rises as a Skeleton/Undead is he still considered a paladin?
3. Any other suggestions/ideas are welcomed.

sounds like fun! I'll address points individually:

1) anything that helps against undead will be most helpful. do you have a ranger in your party? a bane weapon (undead) will be useful. do you have somebody with sneak attack? a truedeath crystal will help them feel a lot less cheated that they're fighting undead. do you have a cleric? since you're at such low levels, a nightstick to give them some more turns (assuming he's the oddball cleric that uses turn undead attempts to turn undead) might be appreciated

2) if you are being a stickler for RAW, no. pallies must be LG, and zombies and skeles are always NE, so that'd make him fall. besides, zombies and skeles don't retain class levels by RAW.

3) what sort of numbers are we talking? both for the party and how many zombies. how many people are in your group? what classes are they playing? what's their playstyle like? hack n slash? RP heavy? what kind of zombies/skeles are you planning to throw at them? do you want them to fight the undead and kill them all only to be resurrounded later? do you want them to be overwhelmed the first fight and be forced underground then? how are you planning to make the party aware of the catacombs? does your party have an elf/dwarf so you can give them a secret door/stonecutting check? do you want to do it with a character's knowledge or a bard's trivia ability?

make sure you make the party aware that the church will have its protection rescinded if they engage in grave robbing so they're making an informed decision, otherwise hurt feelings are sure to ensue when the undead storm the place they understood was protected.

are your party the kind prone to robbing graves in churches?

in short, more specifics would help, but this sounds like the start to a fun encounter

[Lonely Tylenol]

1. I need some great bait for a party of lvl 4-5's

I would go with Paladin-themed gear as well as other sacred relics. Sacred Scabbard (Magic Item Compendium, p. 183), items from the Regalia of the Hero (Magic Item Compendium, p. 208) and Vestments of Divinity (Magic Item Compendium, p. 214-5) sets (the Regalia of the Hero items may be of particular use to the Bard), the Regalia of Righteous War (Complete Champion, p. 136-7, 139), and the usual staples (Cloak of Resistance or equivalent, whatever).

Probably the best thing you could do would be to flesh out the holy warriors (they don't necessarily all have to be paladins; think of a "good" adventuring party or something), ask yourself, "what gear might they have?" and then give them that. It doesn't necessarily all have to be items conveniently fit for each member of the party, but it certainly helps if some of the items work for them.


2. If a paladin rises as a Skeleton/Undead is he still considered a paladin?

No, but see the Death Knight template (Monster Manual II, p. 207). It seems to be just about exactly what you're looking for. For instance, it has specific characteristics for what a Death Knight is in the flavor text:

"Gods of death create death knights. They are martial champions of evil. These horrible undead are most commonly raised from the ranks of blackguards, fighters, rangers, and barbarians; but a paladin who falls from grace near the moment of death may also become a death knight..."

They even have specific rules for the modifications:

"Paladins who become death knights are subject to the same modifications as are presented for the blackguard in Chapter 2 of the Dungeon Master's Guide."

They even have a special ability that you can use to justify the undead apocalypse that your town has found itself in (although you might want to scale it up to make the undead count sufficiently high to match your zombie apocalypse scenario):

"Undead Followers: A death knight attracts lesser undead creatures that happen to exist within a 200-mile radius. It may have up to twice its levels in Hit Dice of followers. The followers arrive monthly in the following increments: 1d6 ghouls, 1d4 ghasts, 1d12 medium skeletons, 1d4 wights, or 1d8 medium zombies once per week. These creatures remain in the service of the death knight until destroyed. These creatures are in addition to any undead creatures the death knight might be able to command or rebuke as a class ability."

[rot42]

Indirectly causing the deaths of innocents and extinction of the local culture like that is a pretty evil act. I second the exhortation that you make the consequences abundantly clear to your players.

Do you have a plan set in stone for stopping the hordes of undead at the source? One option could be a holy artifact that will annihilate both if brought into contact with the evil sacrificial altar or lich's phylactery or whatever is behind the current unpleasantness. The PCs would then be presented with the option to sacrifice the remaining townsfolk but save the rest of the world. The artifact could also act as a fiat debuff, letting you describe some monster wholly beyond their capabilities that becomes manageable when they face it. Restoring mortality to a lich, maybe.

Another option would be to have some way of restoring the consecration effect (a scroll of Consecrate and a UMD check, if nothing else). The PCs would then be put in a race to get back to the temple and restore its protections before the undead hordes break through and eat everybody.

Encounters: You could use Deathless instead of regular undead. The fluff for Sacred Watcher in BoED works pretty well with your situation. "Before you can wield the power of this sword you must prove yourself worthy in mortal combat" is a bit cliche, but should fit the bill; Hound Archons are CR 4, and would make a fitting encounter.

[Acanous]

1: Single-use items would be great bait. One or two permanent magical items (Like a Holy avenger and maybe a magical armor/shield) along with a scroll of Consecrate, some holy water, non-magical treasure like Rings, artwork depicting the deeds that paladin accomplished in life, busts or jeweled masks in the likeness of that paladin. These are all things you could expect to find down there. Make it clear that there's a bunch of single-shot items that would help greatly in the short run, but it's not going to bork their wealth-by-level like it would if you assigne them each a custom magic item.
The Regalia of the Hero is actually a very good suggestion, as it is useful AND cheap.

2: I can't believe nobody's mentioned this yet, but the Deathless template from the book of exalted deeds is *Exactly* what you're looking for here.

3: your party is mostly neutral. It should be made clear that the people in the temple require the things in the catacombs to stay undisturbed in order for the protection to last, but the items in the catacombs should at least seem liek the kind of things that would be able to drive off undead on their own. Things like that would make the party think twice, make it seem good enough that if they manage to take it all, they could possibly thwart the undead on their own!
Of course, they can't with just those items, but make it seem like it. If they DO take the items, make sure it gives a real, valuable boost in combat against undead.
the alignment hit is the punishment for being selfish here.

[JadePhoenix]

You could use deathless from Eberron.
They are positive-energy-undead.

[onemorelurker]

Alternately, use re-fluffed Necropolitans--the refluffing would be so that they're something that arises naturally/can be magically done after death, rather than a ritual undergone by a living person. And to make them look skeletal if that's what you're after.

[lunar2]

if you have the book of exalted deeds, they have some deathless (undead powered by positive energy that are typically good aligned) in there that would be perfect for this type of thing. one of them (i forget the name) looks just lie a skeleton, but is intelligent, so you could throw a couple of paladin levels on it, no problem.

[whisky_slurrs]

Some "statues" being construct guardians that activate upon the disturbing of the remains is probably the easiest way to have a fight for them without possibly having to impact the plot of the paladins remains being consecrated.

This sounds like a good option to me. As far as constructs go, you could use golems or just have statues and use the animated object template. I would have considered suggesting gargoyles, but they are always CE so I doubt they'd be protecting the tombs of good paladins.

[denthor]

Arrange the tomb like this

A three part test

Test one for the cleric or any one of the group

He must jump through four hoops of fire

Hoop one takes away 1/4 of his hit points 64 hp become 48

Hoop two takes away half of what is left. 48 becomes 24 if they heal 64 becomes 32

Hoop three leaves him with 1 Hit point. from where ever his total starts.

Magic mouth before hoop 4 says A Paladin of Pelor would rather die then let fear control him
Hoop four full heals any character that jump through.

Test 2 the thief you start and end in the same spot.
Magic mouth a paladin is not tempted by mondane tresure

This is a hall way that is sqaure design with four untrapped doors. Each door has a treasure behind it that is an illusion. Magic Items gold gems.

The fourth room has real item on a table four magic items if the party takes them a curse is activated that gives them a -2 to all skills for the rest of the game or until removed and the items returned.

If they take nothing they pass the test.

Test three

The test of generosity(giving things away)

At the end of the hall there is a pair of crossed swords both holy swords.

A magic mouth says take the one on the left.

if they take both or the right one they fail the sword crumble.

They proceed to a door inside they see a vision of a young man being threatend by wolfs. Magic mouth says give of the sword free you recieved. They toss the sword into the vision the young picks the sword up the vision fades.

Magic mouth says you pass he has a chance to live. Your reward awaits.

A small key is on the shelf of what ever test they take last. the key opens the doorway out and the treasure you want them to have is there.


Make them understand that these are test and failure awakens the spirits that protect the tomb. Passing will help them to defeat your bad guys.

[migis]

I really appreciate everyone's help. This was exactly what I was looking for. I know I'm not a very good DM, and run more by the seam of my pants, as my group is filled with very unpredictable/smart players.

I let you guys know how the adventure goes after we run it.

Thank you again, guys :)