OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[RMS Oceanic]

Well Vaarsuvius is alive anyway.

And I got memories of Shojo's failed resurrection. Nice little joke at the Lawful v Chaotic viewpoint as well.

[Crisis21]

Nice monitoring set-up.

Edit: Nice dig at the Lawful alignment too.

[Kokopelli Jones]

Well Vaarsuvius is alive anyway.
Is Blackwing alive, though? I couldn't quite make out his eyes.

[SamBurke]

Is she dead or not!?!?!

Curse you!

[t209]

I told you that Familicide destroys the soul of Black Dragons and Descendents. NOw everything's in FUBAR.
At least V's knocked out.
Edit: Just paranoia and unwilling to live.

[BeethroBudkin07]

No X's, so s/he's still alive. :smalltongue:

Like the pace of change from the drama of the previous strips to more light-hearted humor. Still want to know what's going to happen to V though... will the OotS stumble upon the trap? And will V confess to the soul splice? Ooh boy, the suspense is making me real tense!

[zimmerwald1915]

Is Blackwing alive, though? I couldn't quite make out his eyes.
They don't look x-ed out. Blackwing's probably alive for now.

Do we think we're looking at Vaarsuvius and Blackwing from the fourth wall of the shaft, or could there be a passage that leads into the shaft?

EDIT: partially ninja'd

[Kokopelli Jones]

Isn't a diamond needed for Resurrection? Or a I missing/forgetting something? (The latter being quite possible.)

[Zolthux]

how long will it take them to realize V isn't there? and did the Saph Guard ever mention their monitoring system?

[RMS Oceanic]

Isn't a diamond needed for Resurrection? Or a I missing/forgetting something? (The latter being quite possible.)

You can see the diamond dust as Durkon completes the spell.

[Fruchtkracher]

Though V's alive, it doesn't appear like he's gonna be up anytime soon.
On the other hand it's a neat move that Girard's people won't return because they can sence the Ressurector's alignement.

Any non-lawful-good-guy the order knows that can ressurect?

[Mutant Sheep]

Oh, cant they just look down and see a ragtag bunch of adventurers and help them? You'd think a bunch of magical people could SCRY if they get rezzed by a Good guy. :smallsigh:

[The Giant]

Isn't a diamond needed for Resurrection? Or a I missing/forgetting something? (The latter being quite possible.)

The stuff Durkon is throwing in the air in Panel #6 is diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html).

[Mordokai]

Nice monitoring set-up.

Edit: Nice dig at the Lawful alignment too.

I take offence at that last one.


No X's, so s/he's still alive. :smalltongue:

Like the pace of change from the drama of the previous strips to more light-hearted humor. Still want to know what's going to happen to V though... will the OotS stumble upon the trap? And will V confess to the soul splice? Ooh boy, the suspense is making me real tense!

My guess is that V was removed from picture for that particular reason. Namely, to not have to confess to soul splice for a bit longer.

[SinsI]

So, if they have a scroll of Resurrection and Elan or Haley use it - they should be able to raise them, right?

[RMS Oceanic]

Though V's alive, it doesn't appear like he's gonna be up anytime soon.
On the other hand it's a neat move that Girard's people won't return because they can sence the Ressurector's alignement.

Any non-lawful-good-guy the order knows that can ressurect?

Redcloak is Lawful Evil. :smalltongue:

[Spacewolf]

Isn't a diamond needed for Resurrection? Or a I missing/forgetting something? (The latter being quite possible.)

Diamond disappears upon casting probably what the light specks are, unless its diamond dust of course

[CoffeeIncluded]

Oh...I don't know if any of us thought of that.

[t209]

Diamond disappears upon casting probably what the light specks are, unless its diamond dust of course

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html V bought Diamond Dust.
Do you think Familicide destroy the soul of the target?

[Madara]

Well, now we know that resurrection isn't working. I find it interesting that all the descendants share Girard's views. Or at least this one. I would think there should be at least one that would want life over hating paladins.

[zimmerwald1915]

Isn't a diamond needed for Resurrection? Or a I missing/forgetting something? (The latter being quite possible.)
The diamonds are material components to the spell, and are consumed when the spell is cast, regardless of the soul's return to the body or not. I think.

Of course, it didn't appear to work that way for Shojo's failed resurrection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), so that explanation is probably incorrect.

EDIT: ninja'd by The Giant. And a couple lesser people :smallwink:

[Lostboy]

I can't help being reminded of a Trivial Pursuit game piece when I see that monitoring device. And with everyone racing to the gates, it's like the world is their big game board. Except the outcome of this game won't be quite so trivial. :smallamused:

[Aurorax]

Bad sign. Elan gets something that I don't (even read it twice)...

[Imgran]

Well, now we know that resurrection isn't working. I find it interesting that all the descendants share Girard's views. Or at least this one. I would think there should be at least one that would want life over hating paladins.

Teaching carries a lot of weight in belief. These people haven't exactly grown up hearing a diverse mix of viewpoints.

[Oakianus]

Bad sign. Elan gets something that I don't (even read it twice)...

Take it in along with the title of the comic, "Case in Point." The two lawful characters are doing exactly what Haley is accusing lawful characters of doing, you see. :P

[zimmerwald1915]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html V bought Diamond Dust.
Do you think Familicide destroy the soul of the target?
I very much doubt it. The only in-comic thing we know of that can annihiliate souls is the Snarl. Even Xykon can only Soul Bind.

Besides, Tiamat would probably have been even more upset with the IFCC if the dragons' souls had been annihilated rather than consigned to spend an eternity with her in the afterlife. Upset enough to kill.

[Giftzwerg76]

Hm, there's still Kraagor's Gate... Does that make Girard's Gate a goner? It's meta, but it makes sense.

[Siosilvar]

Bad sign. Elan gets something that I don't (even read it twice)...

:haley:: Lawful characters try to make other people think like they do.
:durkon:,:roy:: No we don't.
:haley:: O RLY?

EDIT: It occurs to me that the other gates have been destroyed in a clockwise direction, but Kraagor's is next that way. Speculation: Nobody's going to find Girard's Gate - the three groups will show up, they'll fight it out, and then Xykon & co. will decide it's not worth the effort and fly off to K's gate.

[Lhikevikk]

Somehow I get the feeling that Vaarsuvius is now stuck in some sort of three-dimensional maze.

Or four-dimensional. Hey, anything's possible!

[Pory]

Ouch, Elan lost a finger in panel 8 :smalleek:

[MammonAzrael]

Elan was pretty quick on the uptake that time. :smallsmile:

[RMS Oceanic]

Of course, an argument could be made that the Draketooth clan's postmortem paranoia makes even less sense given that they obviously would have realised that two gates were destroyed in less than a year, including Soon's. They could maybe think the Sapphire Guard tried to seize Dorukan's gate and failed, but what motivation would they have to destroy their own gate?

Oh wait. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) :smalltongue:

But in all seriousness, Haley's father could be an honorary Draketooth (obviously not a real one, given a certain spell) with a strikingly similar display of spite and paranoia that seems to be shown right now. And thus another weakness in the Order of the Scribble's methods are shown: Complete nontrust. I'm kinda hoping some of those books there contain Girard's version of Kraagor's death, assuming Girard himself doesn't pop up, because I'm fascinated to see what could cause this. We know Ian was raised in a town were backstabbing is a way of life, so we can see where his paranoia comes from, but what made Girard so distrustful?

I will now hedge my bets and speculate on what happens if Girard turns up. Back when Girard's message first displayed his contempt to Soon over what happened, I kinda hoped Roy would get to meet and punch him for putting himself above the safety of the world. But now for some reason I think Haley and/or Elan would be better at talking to him. Roy would get mad, but the Chaotic party members would have a better chance of actually reaching him, especially Haley with her recent dealings with Ian.

[t209]

I wonder if one of the draketooth will be resurrected and join OOTS if Belkar, Durkon, or V dies?
-If it was a bad ass young kid, it could be Kevin Costner's Perfect World for OOTS.

[Gift Jeraff]

I like how the Gates are color-coded for our convenience (and obviously match up with the area around each Gate).

[Ikialev]

this is funny to me because it is ironic

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Interesting thing about the beads on the monitor. Three are next to the surface of the circle, two are floating above... Soon Kim's gate was high up, so I wonder if Kraagor's will be up in the air as well? Might be a bit of foreshadowing.

I'm also thinking YY will be the death of Belkar. He's still alive, and Nale & Co. are on the way. The spell will be broken, and YY gets his revenge for the litter box prank.

[MonkeyBusiness]

Well, now we know that resurrection isn't working. I find it interesting that all the descendants share Girard's views. Or at least this one. I would think there should be at least one that would want life over hating paladins.

the other Draketooth descendants might or might not be *only* distrustful of lawful good alignments ... there are plenty of additional reasons for not wanting to return. For example, if they all are as close-knit a community as they seem, then a single person being resurrected would be awfully lonely. I'd imagine they might prefer tostay together.

Also, the afterlife as we saw it when Roy died seemed pretty nice. If the afterlife is as kind to the Draketooth clan, it would be tough to want to leave just to go back to life in a pyramid in the desert, taking turns casting illusion spells. The afterlife might be more fun.

I'm very glad to see V and Blackwing have not yet shuffled off this mortal coil.

[RMS Oceanic]

Interesting thing about the beads on the monitor. Three are next to the surface of the circle, two are floating above... Soon Kim's gate was high up, so I wonder if Kraagor's will be up in the air as well? Might be a bit of foreshadowing.

I'm also thinking YY will be the death of Belkar. He's still alive, and Nale & Co. are on the way. The spell will be broken, and YY gets his revenge for the litter box prank.

Nah, I think they're all at the same hight from the board, and their different positions on the circle make them seem higher or lower.

[MoonCat]

Oh dear. I want to know what is up with V quickly. Also, I totally was hoping for an OoTS today, thank you Giant!

[Mordar]

:haley:: Lawful characters try to make other people think like they do.
:durkon:,:roy:: No we don't.
:haley:: O RLY?

Of course, Haley wasn't trying to make other people think like she does...

So, my first thought when the Ressurection didn't take was...the body wasn't actually that of a dead person. Sure, all the evidence is in place to indicate that it did go down thanks to V's spell, but I'm struck by the thought that the simplest answer for the spell not being effective was that it was incorrectly applied.

Though I freely admit that I didn't account for the material component, which must have been consumed (or Haley'd be sweeping it up with a little broom), and thus applying WoW-as-DnD logic, it would not have been consumed if there was not a proper target for the spell.

So now I remain confused and will just have to wait and see what happens next...

[eheins]

Though V's alive, it doesn't appear like he's gonna be up anytime soon.
On the other hand it's a neat move that Girard's people won't return because they can sence the Ressurector's alignement.

Any non-lawful-good-guy the order knows that can ressurect?

Malack also qualifies, and has a better chance of being persuaded to cooperate with the OOTS than Redcloak would.

[zimmerwald1915]

Malack also qualifies, and has a better chance of being persuaded to cooperate with the OOTS than Redcloak would.
That's assuming he can cast Resurrection. We haven't seen him cast a spell above sixth level yet.

[Euodiachloris]

I bet any Draketooths have decided not to help out as any Lawful Good alignment trying to raise them will be deemed 'Paladins trying to take our jobs after they failed at theirs' as they'll know Soon's Gate fell. Hence the attitude of 'suck on this, suckers!'.

And, even if they are scrying, odds are a few of those family members are not ones to take what the scry is telling them at face value. For some reason. :smallwink:

^ Not all my idea. Another forum plus me.

[Karoug]

The monitoring system-plot clock is really ominous... I bet 10 gp that it is going to be shown again in the future with at least one more blackened-out sphere

[Orzel]

So there is the diamond dust. Where is the bauble?

What? Durkon didn't memorize 1 Speak with Dead every day?
LOL Durkon. Wasting perfectly good diamonds.

[SoC175]

Well, now we know that resurrection isn't working. I find it interesting that all the descendants share Girard's views. Or at least this one. I would think there should be at least one that would want life over hating paladins.Well, that depends on how nice their afterlife is

[Siosilvar]

Of course, Haley wasn't trying to make other people think like she does...

Oh, of course not. That's what Lawful people do, of course. :smallwink:

[Mantine]

Just saying, this sounds a bit too much like an excuse to prevent the "well, they can still resurrect them and fight the bad guys together" thing.
One would expect that at this point a Gate's safety would go beyond a grudge, expecially when you suddenly died for no apparent reason and everyone else may have fell the same. Expecially when they're all likely to have met in the afterlife all at the same time, given their same time of death and probably same alignment.

It's believable, but still smells a bit too much like plot excuse.

[TheCountAlucard]

Yaaaay, new comic!

[Shadowleaf]

Nice comic!

Elan is missing a finger in the 8th panel, though.

[LadyEowyn]

So, given the casting time of Resurrection, V's been missing for at least 10 minutes.

[KoboldRevenge]

Wow the state of the gates is really at a tipping point here. Only two left to keep what's in there in.

Nice comic. I want to see what happens to V!

[Ron Miel]

The stuff Durkon is throwing in the air in Panel #6 is diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html).

But where did Durkon get the diamond dust from? Last we saw, Haley had to climb to the cast page to get a diamond for Durkon. And there's no sign of V giving his dust to Durkon.


Does a failed spell use up a diamond? From #410 it would appear not.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html

[Squark]

Remember, anyone killed by someone Who's been soulspliced stays dead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)

[Gift Jeraff]

And there's no sign of V giving his dust to Durkon.:vaarsuvius: My dwarven companion and I require that diamond dust for a task of literally universal significance-- (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0678.html)

Does a failed spell use up a diamond? From #410 it would appear not.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.htmlReally? It's no longer in the high priest's hand after he finishes casting. Seems like it was consumed.

[Agi Hammerthief]

The stuff Durkon is throwing in the air in Panel #6 is diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html).

But where did Durkon get the diamond dust from? Last we saw, Haley had to climb to the cast page to get a diamond for Durkon. And there's no sign of V giving his dust to Durkon.
he gave a referrence link


Really? It's no longer in the high priest's hand after he finishes casting. Seems like it was consumed.
do you mean the second or third time he says "Resurrection?"

well, have fun sweeping up the diamond dust Durkon :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

But where did Durkon get the diamond dust from? Last we saw, Haley had to climb to the cast page to get a diamond for Durkon. And there's no sign of V giving his dust to Durkon.


Does a failed spell use up a diamond? From #410 it would appear not.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html
"My dwarven companion and I require this diamond dust for a task of literally universal significance" --:vaarsuvius:

EDIT: ninja'd. Again. Jeez.

[ellindsey]

Remember, anyone killed by someone Who's been soulspliced stays dead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)

Only in the same sense that anyone killed by any other cause also stays dead. The purpose of the statement in that strip is to point out that people killed won't come back to life when the Soul Splice ends, even though continuing spell effects cast during the Soul Splice will end. It doesn't mean that people killed during the Soul Splice can't be resurrected afterwards.

[Anarion]

V is alive, which is good. Somehow Blackwing is also hurt even though he can fly, which is...odd but I guess that's caused by the overhead block that smacked them both.

Failed resurrection was amusing. I expected it to be based on familicide actually, rather than just paranoia. It would take away from the familicide spell if any close friends or family could raise the dead person without epic magic of their own, but perhaps that would be too much.

Ironic joke at the end was great. :smallbiggrin:

[Whiffet]

V is still alive, resurrection fails, Haley wins another bet, and a joke about Lawful types is made.

Solid update, I'd say. Although I'm going nuts wondering what will happen next.

[ellindsey]

Raise Dead probably won't work on someone killed by Familicide. Raise Dead can't be used to raise someone killed by a Death Effect, which Familicide probably is. Resurrection doesn't have that limit, so Familicide would probably have to completely destroy the body, or somehow trap or destroy the soul, to prevent resurrection.

[NoobForHire]

Hooray, V didn't die.

Nice jokes about Lawful, too.

[Morph Bark]

Now to get a non-LG (and non-Evil) Cleric to do it for them?

[Animidest]

Knew V wasn't dead. The suspense is stifling! AUUUGH!

I get it too!:smallbiggrin:

[rgrekejin]

I very much doubt it. The only in-comic thing we know of that can annihiliate souls is the Snarl. Even Xykon can only Soul Bind.

Frankly, given the oddness that has been going on with the whole "world within a world" thing, I'd say we're not completely sure if the Snarl even actually does that. It seems advisable, at this point, to take everything we've been told about the Snarl with a grain of salt.

[Whiffet]

Well, now we know that resurrection isn't working. I find it interesting that all the descendants share Girard's views. Or at least this one. I would think there should be at least one that would want life over hating paladins.

Well, sure, there probably is one. But good luck trying to figure out which one it is.


Raise Dead probably won't work on someone killed by Familicide. Raise Dead can't be used to raise someone killed by a Death Effect, which Familicide probably is. Resurrection doesn't have that limit, so Familicide would probably have to completely destroy the body, or somehow trap or destroy the soul, to prevent resurrection.

Whether or not Raise Dead works on someone killed by Familicide doesn't matter. It's been too long for it even if it would work.

[SteveDJ]

V is alive, which is good. Somehow Blackwing is also hurt even though he can fly, which is...odd but I guess that's caused by the overhead block that smacked them both.

Yes, I was just thinking that. Perhaps the whole purpose of the overhead block smacking down when the pit trap opened - was to force anything flying over the trap to also be forced down into the pit. (and, it is likely someone mentioned this in the previous thread - which was way too long, even on the first day, to read it all)

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

It's official, V is for villain.

I like the Armageddon clock too.

[SteveDJ]

Interesting thing about the beads on the monitor. Three are next to the surface of the circle, two are floating above... Soon Kim's gate was high up, so I wonder if Kraagor's will be up in the air as well? Might be a bit of foreshadowing.

Nah, I think they're all at the same hight from the board, and their different positions on the circle make them seem higher or lower.

Actually, if they were the same level, then the one farther away would look closer to the board, not higher up.

So I think Surfing HalfOrc has it right - their height matches where they were located with respect to ground-level.

Think about it - the one in the trees (I'm bad with names, forgive me) was where? On the ground (between two trees). The one in the dungeon crawl was actually somewhat upward in the mountain/hills (they were above ground-level when they were ejected by the explosion). And of course Azure City was quite high up (perhaps even the highest room in the palace?) - certainly the rift is way up in the sky.

I suspect the gate they are looking for is right there, near the top of the pyramid-thing they are inside.

[Smolder]

I wonder if a sufficiently skilled wizard could find a way to use the monitoring device to track down the last gate...

[rgrekejin]

Actually, if they were the same level, then the one farther away would look closer to the board, not higher up.

So I think Surfing HalfOrc has it right - their height matches where they were located with respect to ground-level.


If that were the case, then Durokan and Girard's gate tokens are, for some reason, way off-center. We can see in panels one and five that is not the case. All the tokens are hovering over the board at the same height along the perimeter of the circle.

[Mantine]

Actually, if they were the same level, then the one farther away would look closer to the board, not higher up.

So I think Surfing HalfOrc has it right - their height matches where they were located with respect to ground-level.

Think about it - the one in the trees (I'm bad with names, forgive me) was where? On the ground (between two trees). The one in the dungeon crawl was actually somewhat upward in the mountain/hills (they were above ground-level when they were ejected by the explosion). And of course Azure City was quite high up (perhaps even the highest room in the palace?) - certainly the rift is way up in the sky.

I suspect the gate they are looking for is right there, near the top of the pyramid-thing they are inside.

Or... they're just hovering up and down.
I don't see any form of reason why they'd want to make the "let's see if gate X still exists" also match their position groundwise.

[stsasser]

Is Mr. Scruffy's Catbox still dominated even though V is wrecked?

[Emo Samurai]

I think... that we may have stumbled on a usable, precise definition of "lawful" here. I think that I do not like lawfulness.

[Fargazer]

If all the Draketooth family members died, and probably have similar non-lawful alignments, how come there aren't enough of them in the afterlife to realize, "Hey, I wasn't the only one killed by this"? :smallconfused:

[Smolder]

:roy: "...by whatever new villain killed these people."
:vaarsuvius: "Why is everyone looking at me?"

Subtle cut to V there.

:vaarsuvius: "How about you focus on the old villain?"
:roy: "You're right... Where is Belkar?"

[rbetieh]

Hah, good punchline, very applicable to the forums as well. Meta-punch.

[Skyrunner]

Such a teaser comic! :P

I wonder what happens next :/

[Gandariel]

POSSIBLE SPOILER: V has just been KOd by a trap, and this MUST mean something. In my opinion she will now have a epiphany while unconscious (Like belkar did previously) and then take with resolution whatever result that epiphany told her. Not sure if she will confess to the others.

[t209]

I am wondering what if Draketooths were not Chaotic? I mean their family lives like a community and worship Girard as god (but they still hate paladins so it will be Neutral alignment).

[R. Shackleford]

If all the Draketooth family members died, and probably have similar non-lawful alignments, how come there aren't enough of them in the afterlife to realize, "Hey, I wasn't the only one killed by this"? :smallconfused:

Since your alignment determines your afterlife, they wouldn't all end up in the same afterlife.

They were probably all mostly chaotic-good. But that still leaves members that might have been chaotic-neutral, neutral-good, true neutral, and even a chaotic-evil relative. I wouldn't even rule out the black-sheep Draketooth who actually was LG and hid it in some comical manner...

Aynyway, depending on the cosmology, that's potentially six different afterlives, and they might not allow much travel between the two. Furthermore, their souls might be off having adventures/being tormented and aren't thinking about being raised beyond the message "some lawful moron is trying to subjugate your corpse. stick it to the man and stay dead, bro!" that keeps getting spammed in their head.

So amongst those that do want to be rezzed, they're probably assuming that one of their relatives they didn't see on the other side will raise them, not knowing they're probably in a different afterlife.

[Smolder]

Since your alignment determines your afterlife, they wouldn't all end up in the same afterlife.


None of that matters anyway. They died instantly. What is there to tell? "Thanks, you just wasted your diamond dust and I can't even tell you what killed me. In fact, until you tried to rez me, I had no idea I had even died."

[Querzis]

Since your alignment determines your afterlife, they wouldn't all end up in the same afterlife.

They were probably all mostly chaotic-good. But that still leaves members that might have been chaotic-neutral, neutral-good, true neutral, and even a chaotic-evil relative. I wouldn't even rule out the black-sheep Draketooth who actually was LG and hid it in some comical manner...

Aynyway, depending on the cosmology, that's potentially six different afterlives, and they might not allow much travel between the two. Furthermore, their souls might be off having adventures/being tormented and aren't thinking about being raised beyond the message "some lawful moron is trying to subjugate your corpse. stick it to the man and stay dead, bro!" that keeps getting spammed in their head.

So amongst those that do want to be rezzed, they're probably assuming that one of their relatives they didn't see on the other side will raise them, not knowing they're probably in a different afterlife.

One thing to also consider is that, just like Roy, they probably think they havent died that long ago. See it from the perspective, their worst known enemy is lawful good and command tons of paladins...and just after you die, a lawful good person try to resurect you. You dont even really have to be paranoid to think that those trying to resurect you were the ones who killed you and they wanna rez you just to question you.

[Riverdance]

Reminds me of the hypocrisy of the phrase, "you're so judgmental!"

I noticed on the gate monitor that the Girard's and Kraagor's gates were "flaming" whatever that indicates. I assumed the flames meant they had been damaged but if that were the case than it would be Soon's and Dorukan's gates that were flaming. It also might be the opposite, and the black means they've been broken. What's the status of Lirian's Gate?

[phantomreader42]

Though V's alive, it doesn't appear like he's gonna be up anytime soon.
On the other hand it's a neat move that Girard's people won't return because they can sense the Ressurector's alignement.

IIRC, they should also know Durkon's name and patron god, and thus realize that they're being rezzed by someone whose name doesn't sound Azurite, who is a follower of Thor, not one of the Twelve. But they may just be THAT paranoid.


Any non-lawful-good-guy the order knows that can ressurect?

Malak's alignment isn't certain, but some variety of Neutral seems to fit this conversation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html). But if he shows up the Order has bigger troubles...

They could always try a Sending to elven lands and see if they can get a druid to help. And then there'd be someone neutral who could cast Atonement for V! And lots of fun with Durkon's tree-paranoia!

[Fargazer]

Since your alignment determines your afterlife, they wouldn't all end up in the same afterlife.

They were probably all mostly chaotic-good. But that still leaves members that might have been chaotic-neutral, neutral-good, true neutral, and even a chaotic-evil relative. I wouldn't even rule out the black-sheep Draketooth who actually was LG and hid it in some comical manner...

Aynyway, depending on the cosmology, that's potentially six different afterlives, and they might not allow much travel between the two. Furthermore, their souls might be off having adventures/being tormented and aren't thinking about being raised beyond the message "some lawful moron is trying to subjugate your corpse. stick it to the man and stay dead, bro!" that keeps getting spammed in their head.

So amongst those that do want to be rezzed, they're probably assuming that one of their relatives they didn't see on the other side will raise them, not knowing they're probably in a different afterlife.

As you mention though, they were probably mostly around the chaotic good range, possibly chaotic neutral. If thats the case, lets just assume that about 1/3 of the family were each of those alignments. If you suddenly were in the afterlife, along with about a third of your family, it still seems like it would send up a red flag that makes you realize all, or at least the signifigant majority, of your family had been killed.

[R. Shackleford]

None of that matters anyway. They died instantly. What is there to tell? "Thanks, you just wasted your diamond dust and I can't even tell you what killed me. In fact, until you tried to rez me, I had no idea I had even died."

For some reason, that's what I would expect my DM to say if our party encountered this same scenario.

"Can I tell the red-haired jerk that I''m going to desecrate his corpse? If so, I do that."

"Roll for it, buddy."


As you mention though, they were probably mostly around the chaotic good range, possibly chaotic neutral. If thats the case, lets just assume that about 1/3 of the family were each of those alignments. If you suddenly were in the afterlife, along with about a third of your family, it still seems like it would send up a red flag that makes you realize all, or at least the signifigant majority, of your family had been killed.

Ah, that answer I was prepared for! I believe that they would simply have been so deluded/stubborn/paranoid, that they wouldn't assume that the remaining 2/3s hadn't died, and were actually in the process of avenging/reviving them all. The CG segment would have assumed that they were all CG, and so on.

It seems like we're dealing with a group that wouldn't accept the most logical explanation offered if one they liked was still plausible. As long as it's possible that one of them might be alive on the other end, then that person is obviously going to take it to the man then rez his family.

Just my two gp.

[Querzis]

IIRC, they should also know Durkon's name and patron god, and thus realize that they're being rezzed by someone whose name doesn't sound Azurite, who is a follower of Thor, not one of the Twelve. But they may just be THAT paranoid.

Thing is, that doesnt change anything. They could be absolutely convinced Soon has nothing to do with it and it woudnt change the fact that the ones trying to rez them are obviously not members of their family. Which means, from their perspective, that they are most likely the ones that killed them and wanna rez them just for interrogation. And since V killed them and the rest mostly want answers, they are actually absolutely right about that!

Edit: also someone mentionned they could scry on the Order from the afterlife...yeah at which point they would see the one that killed them all, a violent psychopath, a mind controlled kobold they are keeping to detonate the traps, the son of a tyranical overlord, two lawful good people and a thief who lies every two seconds...and the thief would be the one they trust the most out of that whole bunch!

[LordofNaught]

Well, as numerous others have pointed out, Varrsuvius is alive. But for how long though? That room he's in looks small, and I didn't see any hint of a passage. Unless the "camera" was in said passage. Either way he/she is likely to die of suffocation or lack of nourishment in there if the order can't find him/her. Unless he/she can cast Sending in time. Or cast an offensive spell on the doors above and fly out.

Of course the walls and roof could be protected to prevent that. So...what options does that leave? Anyone?

[R. Shackleford]

Reminds me of the hypocrisy of the phrase, "you're so judgmental!"

I noticed on the gate monitor that the Girard's and Kraagor's gates were "flaming" whatever that indicates. I assumed the flames meant they had been damaged but if that were the case than it would be Soon's and Dorukan's gates that were flaming. It also might be the opposite, and the black means they've been broken. What's the status of Lirian's Gate?


Liran's should be in the same condition as Soon's and Dorukan's. I think the better question is whether or not they reach the same state as Soon's automatically or not. If so, then the Gobbotopia skylight has two larger versions elsewhere, likely unguarded.

[Smolder]

For some reason, that's what I would expect my DM to say if our party encountered this same scenario.

"Can I tell the red-haired jerk that I''m going to desecrate his corpse? If so, I do that."

"Roll for it, buddy."

"So, I hope you guys have enough diamond dust to resurrect the other 23 people in my famil--" *splfft* *thud*
:roy: Okay, who did that?

[Fargazer]

Ah, that answer I was prepared for! I believe that they would simply have been so deluded/stubborn/paranoid, that they wouldn't assume that the remaining 2/3s hadn't died, and were actually in the process of avenging/reviving them all. The CG segment would have assumed that they were all CG, and so on.

It seems like we're dealing with a group that wouldn't accept the most logical explanation offered if one they liked was still plausible. As long as it's possible that one of them might be alive on the other end, then that person is obviously going to take it to the man then rez his family.

Just my two gp.

Hm, I had assumed the exact opposite, that the family members would be at least superficially aware of what people were slightly different alignments around the family.

Which, if it were true, would make it even more obvious, since if you were in the afterlife with literally everyone you knew as the same alignment as you, you would either have to assume that the vast majority had been killed, or one specific alignment had been targeted.

Of course, its impossible to say if they knew the other's alignments or not, and your idea seems more likely, but even then, I still feel like they would notice if so many had been killed in one moment, at the lunchtable.

[DBear]

I can't help being reminded of a Trivial Pursuit game piece when I see that monitoring device. And with everyone racing to the gates, it's like the world is their big game board. Except the outcome of this game won't be quite so trivial. :smallamused:

Made me think of Magic the Gathering, with orange swapped for black. Before I saw the initials in each piece, I had match Lirian with green (nature), Girard with blue (illusion, mind), Soon with white (order), Kraagor tho he doesn't use magic with red (chaos, destruction) and obviously we can't have black.

[Mantine]

Reminds me of the hypocrisy of the phrase, "you're so judgmental!"

I noticed on the gate monitor that the Girard's and Kraagor's gates were "flaming" whatever that indicates. I assumed the flames meant they had been damaged but if that were the case than it would be Soon's and Dorukan's gates that were flaming. It also might be the opposite, and the black means they've been broken. What's the status of Lirian's Gate?

...Huh, what? "flaming" ones still exist, dark ones are those broken.
Simple as that.

[Anne Calie]

V is alive, what a relief!

And Elan didn't lost a finger, it just doesn't fit in the comic.

[Valyrian]

Thanks Giant!

It's official, V is for villian.
Why? Even though hir actions certainly moved hir a whole lot closer to the "deep end of the alignment pool", being Evil doesn't automatically make one a villain (see Belkar). V's reaction to the whole revelation makes a turn for villainy unlikely, even if V's not to be redeemed.

[LadyEowyn]

Given that Vaarsuvius is trapped and unconscious, what odds would you put on someone else telling the Order about Familicide before V gets the chance?

Currently I'd put chance of it at around 95%. Narratively, it produces conflict and complicates the plot, and enables a much greater variety of potential outcomes than V just explaining everything his/herself.

[eilandesq]

If V. isn't actually in negative HP right now, getting out shouldn't be a problem when he/she wakes up--his/her favorite spell is "Disintegrate," and that will blow a nice big hole in the stone above unless it's protected by antimagic or the like.

[homeosapiens]

Just saying, this sounds a bit too much like an excuse to prevent the "well, they can still resurrect them and fight the bad guys together" thing.
One would expect that at this point a Gate's safety would go beyond a grudge, expecially when you suddenly died for no apparent reason and everyone else may have fell the same. Expecially when they're all likely to have met in the afterlife all at the same time, given their same time of death and probably same alignment.

It's believable, but still smells a bit too much like plot excuse.
Totally agree.

[JSSheridan]

Why? Even though hir actions certainly moved hir a whole lot closer to the "deep end of the alignment pool", being Evil doesn't automatically make one a villain (see Belkar). V's reaction to the whole revelation makes a turn for villainy unlikely, even if V's not to be redeemed.

:roy:: ...whatever new villain killed these people.

:vaarsuvius:: ...

If the shoe fits. Just because she's a villain though doesn't mean she must be evil.

[Valyrian]

Just saying, this sounds a bit too much like an excuse to prevent the "well, they can still resurrect them and fight the bad guys together" thing.
One would expect that at this point a Gate's safety would go beyond a grudge, expecially when you suddenly died for no apparent reason and everyone else may have fell the same. Expecially when they're all likely to have met in the afterlife all at the same time, given their same time of death and probably same alignment.

It's believable, but still smells a bit too much like plot excuse.
We shouldn't trust too much in Roy being right here. I suspect it has more to do with the specifics of Familicide than a collective Draketooth grudge (my main reasoning behind that is currently that the Giant would do better than make the whole clan Girard-level Chaotic stupid).

[StClair]

Is "Lawfulsplaining" a word now?

[Alex Warlorn]

I'm pretty sure that is not a word now.

And IMHO Harley is being prejudice.

[Jay R]

That's assuming [Malack] can cast Resurrection. We haven't seen him cast a spell above sixth level yet.

And also assuming that a cleric of a god of death will cast Resurrection for total strangers.

[Girl Wonder]

Poor lawful types, they get so little respect ;) Both Hinjo and Shojo were/are good rulers, but Shojo is 'the cool one' and Hinjo is 'the stuffy one'. I've noticed this in lots of campaigns and forums ... Lawful is stuffy and inflexible, Chaotic is free and easy.

And that certainly, to some extent, is true and how it should be if everyone's playing their alignment relatively well, though certainly it needn't be the dominant trait of anyone's personality.

What I don't see often enough is the idiosyncratic parts of chaotic personalities getting a lot of direct digs, and certainly, they deserve them. A lawful person might tend to evangelize a bit more, trying to get you to 'think like they do' and bring you into the fold of true believers (whatever the cause or argument), but a chaotic person would, I imagine, be much less inclined to care what others think. The positive of this is that they have a more 'live and let live' attitude about others' opinions. The negative of this is that they tend to disregard what others think and feel and act primarily akin to their own internal compass, acting on what they want and what they think is right with less consideration for others.

To put it in a less-wordy fashion, Lawfuls have a weakness for being pig-headed and Chaotics have a weakness for being self-centered.

Lord Shojo (or Belkar's fevered imagining of him) once gave an eloquent dissertation on how to 'work the system' and outfox the rule-makers in society. I'd love to hear a similarly adroit presentation of the lawful point of view that doesn't come off as some sort of stuffy diatribe that causes all of the chaotic sorts to snicker about behind the lawfuls' backs later.

[sacman701]

It's possible that not all of the Draketooth clan would be averse to being resurrected by a lawful good character. In particular, the small girl shown at the bottom right corner of the last panel in strip 841 is probably too young to have developed any deep-seated ideological convictions yet. However, if they can communicate with each other in the afterlife as Roy could with his dead relatives, the group may well be able to persuade any particular one of them to refuse the resurrection. The small girl may be especially susceptible to this.

Of course, if they have no more diamond dust or if Familicide is resurrection-proof this is moot anyway.

[JSSheridan]

I'm pretty sure that is not a word now.

And IMHO Harley is being prejudice.

Yeah, but she has experiences to justify it, especially with the fresh memories of her stay with Tarquin.

Durkon and Roy can't exactly be objective about it either though seeing as they're being talked about.

My way of playing a lawful character would be, "I wouldn't do that for X, Y, and Z reasons. But since it doesn't affect me or hurt anyone, then what do I care? I have no right to interfere, so have fun with that."

[Jay R]

If V. isn't actually in negative HP right now, getting out shouldn't be a problem when he/she wakes up--his/her favorite spell is "Disintegrate," and that will blow a nice big hole in the stone above unless it's protected by antimagic or the like.

The stone above is the only thing between V and the giant piston that knocked him/her out. I don't think V will be that quick to eliminate it.

[ti'esar]

Re: Draketooths in the afterlife...

Even if they did realize that they all died simultaneously, what would be the significance of it?

[Girl Wonder]

I started to think that O-Chul's very life might be our best testament to Lawfulness, but then I realized that while he is very lawful, it is his -goodness- that defines him even more (case-in-point, he's the poster child for the 'Good' shirt).

I suppose Tarquin could make an eloquent case for lawfulness, except that he's Lawful Evil, and I think the Evil would weigh more heavily in his statements than the Lawful. I suppose I want a Lawful Good sort to expound on the good points of Lawfulness (or Chaos' weaknesses) in the same way our Chaotic Good Shojo did the same for Chaos/Law.

Maybe it's just harder to encapsulate Lawfulness in such a fashion, I don't know, though perhaps it is telling that we now have shirts and soundbites for Good, Evil, Chaos, and even Neutrality. Maybe this year I will get my Lawful shirt. And I look good in yellow, gold, and/or green (hint hint).

Edit: Oooo... Purple is good, too

[term3186]

V is alive, what a relief!

And Elan didn't lost a finger, it just doesn't fit in the comic.


8th panel, not the last panel. Elan's middle finger is missing.

[LadyEowyn]

I agree that O-Chul is the best example of Lawful Good. He does seek to bring the MitD around to his way of thinking (or at least, he tries to get the MitD to think, in hopes that it will come around to good), but he does it by teaching and encouraging, not by hectoring.

[phantomreader42]

And also assuming that a cleric of a god of death will cast Resurrection for total strangers.

I'd expect a cleric of a god of death would be rather curious what killed so many people so suddenly.

[phantomreader42]

Re: Draketooths in the afterlife...

Even if they did realize that they all died simultaneously, what would be the significance of it?

Something, or someone, killed the entire family all at once. How could that not have SOME significance?

[Doug Lampert]

As you mention though, they were probably mostly around the chaotic good range, possibly chaotic neutral. If thats the case, lets just assume that about 1/3 of the family were each of those alignments. If you suddenly were in the afterlife, along with about a third of your family, it still seems like it would send up a red flag that makes you realize all, or at least the signifigant majority, of your family had been killed.

Good? Several people have said this, on what evidence?

The evidence of lethal boobytraps going untended?

The evidence of kidnapping, fraud, and theft? That's how they perpetuate themselves? What had Penelopy done to justify robbing her of both her wealth and her son and leaving her with nothing? Orin was MARRIED to her!

If I did that sort of thing to my wife, as a deliberate plan, and our entire relationship had been a setup so I could do that, I'd be a sociopath, not a hero! Why is Girard's family different? Because they're "defending a gate", they're defending it from a Paladin who lived his entire life without attacking it because HE meant what he said and wasn't a serial liar who assumes the same of others!

What has this clan done to justify an assumption of Chaotic Good?

The ONLY thing providing evidence that it isn't Evil is that Soon associated with Girard. And alignments can change.

[LadyEowyn]

I don't think that Girard's family were Evil, as we've seen nothing to indicate that they're deliberately malicious (and the traps laying around are supposed to be there, to defend the gate - this isn't the kind of place that some random innocent would just stumble upon), but Chaotic Neutral seems like a much better fit for them than Chaotic Good.

But I can't understand their attitudes here. They know that Soon's gate was destroyed, as were two others. They must be able to guess that theirs could be in jeopardy. If they actually care about their mission of defending the Gate, they'd choose to come back regardless of who was raising them, to find out what was going on and do their best to preserve the remaining gates. And if they think it's a paladin raising them, all the more reason to come back, so they can learn what happened to Soon's gate and thus understand the danger better.

In short, they're being irrational and petty.

[Mantine]

Re: Draketooths in the afterlife...

Even if they did realize that they all died simultaneously, what would be the significance of it?

Three gates destroyed, two left, they all suddenly die.
If that doesn't yell "something's fishy", I don't know what should.

Screwing up a 60 year old plan of world defense out of a grudge sounds pretty stupid to me.
Expecially when the so called "fascist paladins" already had theirs destroyed.

[Quild]

Just saying, this sounds a bit too much like an excuse to prevent the "well, they can still resurrect them and fight the bad guys together" thing.
One would expect that at this point a Gate's safety would go beyond a grudge, expecially when you suddenly died for no apparent reason and everyone else may have fell the same. Expecially when they're all likely to have met in the afterlife all at the same time, given their same time of death and probably same alignment.

It's believable, but still smells a bit too much like plot excuse.

Agree. Being resurrected by someone LG is hardly a bad thing, even if it's one of Soon's paladins.

[LadyFoxfire]

What's the status of Lirian's Gate?

Lirian's gate is broken (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html). Redcloak insists (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) it was an accident.

[Illven]

Question. Wouldn't Girard's gate defenders know that Durkon is a cleric of Thor. Raise dead spells also communicate your patron deity, and thus they should know it's not the sapphire guard rezzing them.

[oppyu]

At this point, it seems safe to say that the Draketooth Clan were to Chaos what Miko was to Law. There may still be an argument for them being Chaotic Good though. According to the Deva (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), a key component of being Good is fighting the forces of evil without expecting anything in return, which could be true. As for the whole 'seduction, followed by kidnapping and robbery' thing, pragmatism in the face of (perceived) extreme danger? Could be possible. Morally questionable anti-heroes can still qualify as Good. Not pure Good, but somewhat.

[t209]

Question. Wouldn't Girard's gate defenders know that Durkon is a cleric of Thor. Raise dead spells also communicate your patron deity, and thus they should know it's not the sapphire guard rezzing them.

Maybe they worship Girard as god.
My Theory: Draketooths got their own cleric by worshipping Girard (or he became a deity like Dark One). They can't trust the gods, so they make themselves a god. I mean they might saw them with Refugees while scrying or something like that. I'm hoping Roy doing Shut Up Hannibal moment to revived Draketooth who ripped on the Sapphireguards and Azurites.

[Romanes eunt do]

Agree. Being resurrected by someone LG is hardly a bad thing, even if it's one of Soon's paladins.

When the founder of your little community is willing to blow up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html) anyone who says "Gate, Girard, Sapphire Guard, Soon" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) on the assumption that you're Soon or his paladins, I'd say paranoid spite overrode reason in this case.

[Dr.Epic]

YAY! New comic! Awesome!

[Kokopelli Jones]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html V bought Diamond Dust.
That's what I had missed. Thanks.

[Siosilvar]

If the shoe fits. Just because she's a villain though doesn't mean she must be evil.

Wrong jingle. You're looking for "If by the boot you've been kicked...."

[oppyu]

Wrong jingle. You're looking for "If by the boot you've been kicked...."
If you help with their verse, you only make things worse.

[Murray]

To me, it's going to be hard to sell a story that makes the Draketooth cult anything above Chaotic Neutral. Despite the maliciousness involved with marrying with intent to rob & kidnap, I suppose someone closer to Nale's side of the spectrum would have left Penelope dead just to tie up loose ends. Overall, I really don't see much good in the Draketooths, since we haven't seen anything that suggests they did more than maintain a status quo. I think CN fits the cult better than CG or CE.

For all we know, Girard had a personal interest in keeping the political climate in the western continent so viciously chaotic. In a way, it makes it easier for his family to defend the gate, and to fly under the radar.

[The MunchKING]

Question. Wouldn't Girard's gate defenders know that Durkon is a cleric of Thor. Raise dead spells also communicate your patron deity, and thus they should know it's not the sapphire guard rezzing them.

Well I think they didn't like Lawfuls in general...

[eilandesq]

To me, it's going to be hard to sell a story that makes the Draketooth cult anything above Chaotic Neutral. Despite the maliciousness involved with marrying with intent to rob & kidnap, I suppose someone closer to Nale's side of the spectrum would have left Penelope dead just to tie up loose ends. Overall, I really don't see much good in the Draketooths, since we haven't seen anything that suggests they did more than maintain a status quo. I think CN fits the cult better than CG or CE.

For all we know, Girard had a personal interest in keeping the political climate in the western continent so viciously chaotic. In a way, it makes it easier for his family to defend the gate, and to fly under the radar.

Possibly, but the net effect was having a lot of people under probably mostly LE tyrants for many, many years--with the continuing danger posed by negligent civil rights and active secret police. If Girard was knowingly facilitating that, it's a sign that his hatred of Soon and all lawful types had knocked more than a few screws loose. . .which sadly is not all that far-fetched. If he was responsible for setting up the kidnapping/embezzlement cult for his family, he'd drifted way into the evil range of the chaotic zone long before he died.

[Murray]

Possibly, but the net effect was having a lot of people under probably mostly LE tyrants for many, many years--with the continuing danger posed by negligent civil rights and active secret police. If Girard was knowingly facilitating that, it's a sign that his hatred of Soon and all lawful types had knocked more than a few screws loose. . .which sadly is not all that far-fetched. If he was responsible for setting up the kidnapping/embezzlement cult for his family, he'd drifted way into the evil range of the chaotic zone long before he died.

Part of the problem is that we don't know the history. Which came first, Girard's tenure as gate guardian, or seasonal violent regime change across the western continent? You could argue that by destabilizing the regimes, the Draketooths are doing 'good.' But if that's the case, then without trying to build something 'good' to take over and make life better for the average person, they'd be guilty of certain degree of negligence. Seems very neutral to me, maybe even Free Spirited (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#chaoticNeutral).

And for all his lost marbles, it may not be Girard, but his progeny who are to blame for less than stellar choices made. They could have been fundamentalists who took their all-father a little too literally when he said "Keep it in the family."

[Conuly]

What did Elan "get" in the last panel? I'm not seeing what he suddenly understood. :smallconfused:


The monitoring system-plot clock is really ominous... I bet 10 gp that it is going to be shown again in the future with at least one more blackened-out sphere

Yeah, but not until after Girard's gate goes down. The Oracle already told us that Xykon is going to be there BEFORE he gets to Kraagor's, and we know they're headed in this direction RIGHT NOW.


Well I think they didn't like Lawfuls in general...

Besides, it'd be easy for the Sapphire Guard to convince another LG person to trust them and NOT trust the chaotic, cultish Draketooths.

[Smolder]

What did Elan "get" in the last panel? I'm not seeing what he suddenly understood. :smallconfused:


He's getting the inside joke about the crazy alignment talk on the forums, as well as the joke that Durkon and Roy have both just proven Haley correct.

[silvadel]

Raise Dead probably won't work on someone killed by Familicide. Raise Dead can't be used to raise someone killed by a Death Effect, which Familicide probably is. Resurrection doesn't have that limit, so Familicide would probably have to completely destroy the body, or somehow trap or destroy the soul, to prevent resurrection.

It could always oppose any ressurrection attempt. So you would have to beat the DC of the spell (something I doubt Durkon could do).

[willpell]

I'd love to hear a similarly adroit presentation of the lawful point of view that doesn't come off as some sort of stuffy diatribe that causes all of the chaotic sorts to snicker about behind the lawfuls' backs later.

Ultimately the limitation of the Chaotic viewpoint is that it acknowledges no primacy beyond that of the individual, and in the natural cycle of life, all individuals eventually succumb to the ravages of time and the cruel whims of Fate - put more simply, they die (often after aging away into feeble or senile shadows of their former selves). This can be averted through methods such as necromancy or transformation into an aberration, but it is difficult to emerge from such methods with one's personality undamaged. In the vast majority of cases, a Chaotic person doesn't try to plan for what will happen after he's done living, and that quite simply means that they often leave a mess behind when they die, which others are stuck cleaning up. And they may well have been born into such a mess in the first place, and not care about spiting the next generation exactly the way they were spited.

Lawful alignment may belittle the individual, but that's because the individual IS little in the grand scheme of things. A Lawful person works to create something larger than himself, something which can be counted on to endure into subsequent generations, constantly growing and building into something grander and more potent. Central to Law is a belief that things tend to remain as they are unless changed (whereas Chaos is the opposite belief, that things tend to change unless forcibly kept stable), and so the paladin who works to build an empire assumes that the empire is capable of enduring for thousands of years, so long as its principles remain intact and its people keep the faith. Those who fear the prospect of being left alone, too weak to protect themselves, like the thought of being able to rely upon a system that will protect them, so long as they retain their fealty to it. Through this dedication, they can be assured that their efforts, however small, will have lasting repercussions long after they are gone, and thus their lives will not have been in vain.

(There are a lot of assumptions on either side of the aisle, and any alignment becomes Alignment Stupid if you rely too heavily on a small number of such assumptions, instead of using actual logic to puzzle out the complexities of real life. So if you just care about signing up with any strong empire and don't have any checks and balances built into a system, or if you have too many such checks and balances thus that nobody but a professional bureaucrat can understand how the laws actually work, then you end up with conformity mills that crush the individual spirit and provoke twitchy rebellious backlash - Stupid Lawful breeds Stupid Chaotic. With diligence and inspiration, both sides can do better.)

[LuisDantas]

More hints that Girard may be less than helpful even if he turns out to be alive. This is going to be interesting.

While there is a certain sense in Haley's hypothesis about why the Draketooths aren't coming back to life, it relies in very arguable premises. A simpler, more likely explanation would be that Familicide is too epic to be effectively countered by a regular necromancy spell. I'm not sure the rules support such an interpretation, however.

Also, I'm a bit disappointed by Haley's standing prejudice against law. I'm not even sure the closing gag worked, to be honest. Between Haley' speeches and Miko supposedly being Lawful and/or Good, I'm afraid I'm not too keen on the Giant's apparent interpretation of the alignments.

[Smolder]

All ongoing effects ended when the soulsplice was severed. So the bodies should no longer be under death effects. They stay dead, as explicitly stated by the IFCC, but the death effect is like an enchantment that expires with the soulsplice.

[Mantine]

Yeah, they explicitly stated that any post-splice effect would disappear. Summonings, evocations, curses, anything. Only natural death would remain.

[Doug Lampert]

To me, it's going to be hard to sell a story that makes the Draketooth cult anything above Chaotic Neutral. Despite the maliciousness involved with marrying with intent to rob & kidnap, I suppose someone closer to Nale's side of the spectrum would have left Penelope dead just to tie up loose ends. Overall, I really don't see much good in the Draketooths, since we haven't seen anything that suggests they did more than maintain a status quo. I think CN fits the cult better than CG or CE.

Humans show no tendancy toward any alignment, not even neutral.

Hence it follows that roughly 1/3rd of all humans fit the D&D bin labeled Evil.

You seriously think not murdering your own wife indicates non-evil? Even evil characters can have friends and loved ones. But the Draketooths hurt even their own family!

You need not be a psycho mass murderer to be Evil, you just need to be the type of person who doesn't CARE if accomplishing your goals involves hurting innocent bystanders. The Draketooth scheme fits that to a T. It's all about what they're doing and what they do to others doesn't matter. That's CLASSIC EVIL, that's WORSE than most murderers in our world.

That they didn't actually kill Penelopy simply means they lie to themselves about what they are. Redcloak doesn't kill random goblins, that doesn't make him non-evil. Nor does not murdering your own wife make you non-evil. That the behavior pattern would be CONSISTENT with murdering your spouse makes it blatantly evil. How many ruined lives did the Draketooths leave behind? How many DIED as a direct consequence even prior to familicide? Bankrupcy and depression can both kill.

The Draketooths didn't care about that. Not caring about that is blatant evil.

Maybe the giant will declare them CN, but to me thinking they are CG is bizzare and CN is unlikely, some variety of evil is the only thing that fits.

[B. Dandelion]

Also, I'm a bit disappointed by Haley's standing prejudice against law. I'm not even sure the closing gag worked, to be honest. Between Haley' speeches and Miko supposedly being Lawful and/or Good, I'm afraid I'm not too keen on the Giant's apparent interpretation of the alignments.

Do you mean just in general, or do you think Law is getting the short end of the stick in particular? (No pun intended.) I rather liked Celia's take on Lawfulness, back when she was defending the Order at trial (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html) (whatever one may think of Celia in subsequent strips, I think her argument holds merit). Roy's deva was also quite reasonable. It also seems like, if Law isn't held up as universally benign, Chaos is no bastion of inherent righteousness either -- the knee-jerk paranoia of Ian and Girard certainly doesn't seem to be doing their cause any favors.

[Arancaytar]

They died so quickly, they probably don't know they're all dead.

Doesn't that contradict what we saw when Roy died? If dozens of Draketooths - all CG-aligned - died in an instant, shouldn't they all meet up in a rather large group in Arborea, just like the Azurites were queueing up in front of the celestial gates after the battle?

For that matter, what did happen in the various outer planes when V's Familicide hit? If it killed as many people as V feared, then there would have to be hundreds of simultaneous deaths for multiple alignments (CE and CG for the black dragons and Draketooths respectively, possibly others for drive-by targets). Is it at all possible they compared notes and scried a little bit? Because if so I think V has by now been voted Least Popular Elf in at least 2-3 outer planes.

... and as for the party he travels with, this probably doesn't do them any favors while trying to get Draketooths to trust them. Fridge Brilliance.

[skaddix]

Doesn't that contradict what we saw when Roy died? If dozens of Draketooths - all CG-aligned - died in an instant, shouldn't they all meet up in a rather large group in Arborea, just like the Azurites were queueing up in front of the celestial gates after the battle?

For that matter, what did happen in the various outer planes when V's Familicide hit? If it killed as many people as V feared, then there would have to be hundreds of simultaneous deaths for multiple alignments (CE and CG for the black dragons and Draketooths respectively, possibly others for drive-by targets). Is it at all possible they compared notes and scried a little bit? Because if so I think V has by now been voted Least Popular Elf in at least 2-3 outer planes.

... and as for the party he travels with, this probably doesn't do them any favors while trying to get Draketooths to trust them. Fridge Brilliance.

Interesting Idea.

Although Roy and Durkon don't do much forcing.

[jafar]

Ironic joke at the end was great. :smallbiggrin:

Sadly, disappointingly, I did not.

What did Elan "get" exactly? Obviously, Durkon and Roy were confirming Haley's opinion nicely. But what exactly was Elan replying too? I want to laugh, really! :smallbiggrin:

[The MunchKING]

Sadly, disappointingly, I did not.

What did Elan "get" exactly? Obviously, Durkon and Roy were confirming Haley's opinion nicely. But what exactly was Elan replying too? I want to laugh, really! :smallbiggrin:

That was it. He got that Haley was right, and the two Lawful guys were trying to force her to think thier way. Him being the other Chaotic in that 4-pack, he could see it for what Haley says it is...

[Particle_Man]

My way of playing a lawful character would be, "I wouldn't do that for X, Y, and Z reasons. But since it doesn't affect me or hurt anyone, then what do I care? I have no right to interfere, so have fun with that."

Interesting. That is how I would play a Neutral character.

[Murray]

You seriously think not murdering your own wife indicates non-evil? Even evil characters can have friends and loved ones.


My views were made in accordance with the limitations of the alignment pie chart, one that tends to allow PCs to commit genocide and murder simply because of an arbitrary statistic in a monster manual, and not in a real-world view of ethics. The Draketooths are in all likelihood, a family of criminals. But on the pie chart (which is a part of game mechanics and not a believable pyschological template in any form), I see their actions falling into the category of selfish than good or evil. I'm also giving them the benefit of the doubt, that their negligence, self-importance and cruelty to anyone outside the cult is one of ignorance with perpetuated xenophobia and bigotry hasn't led to mass killings, and that there are people more spiteful than the freaky creepy cult family. (But the OotS could still stumble into a torture chamber or two, we'll have to wait and see.)


Doesn't that contradict what we saw when Roy died? If dozens of Draketooths - all CG-aligned - died in an instant, shouldn't they all meet up in a rather large group in Arborea, just like the Azurites were queueing up in front of the celestial gates after the battle?


Roy went to a lawful afterlife, where people waited in queues. I don't know if the admission process on the chaotic side of things would be the quite the same experience.

[rbetieh]

He's getting the inside joke about the crazy alignment talk on the forums, as well as the joke that Durkon and Roy have both just proven Haley correct.

He might also be getting why he can't figure out his dad....

[ti'esar]

My views were made in accordance with the limitations of the alignment pie chart, one that tends to allow PCs to commit genocide and murder simply because of an arbitrary statistic in a monster manual, and not in a real-world view of ethics. The Draketooths are in all likelihood, a family of criminals. But on the pie chart (which is a part of game mechanics and not a believable pyschological template in any form), I see their actions falling into the category of selfish than good or evil. I'm also giving them the benefit of the doubt, that their negligence, self-importance and cruelty to anyone outside the cult is one of ignorance with perpetuated xenophobia and bigotry hasn't led to mass killings, and that there are people more spiteful than the freaky creepy cult family. (But the OotS could still stumble into a torture chamber or two, we'll have to wait and see.)



Roy went to a lawful afterlife, where people waited in queues. I don't know if the admission process on the chaotic side of things would be the quite the same experience.

I don't want to reopen the "crazy alignment talk" (and for the record, I at least picked up on that immediately), but I do have to say that your post, particularly the part I bolded, suggests a misunderstanding of how the Giant, at least, approaches the alignment system.

[Roland Itiative]

I wonder what role the Gate tracking device will play out in the story. For one, it should have alerted the Draketooth clan of three Gates being destroyed in a short amount of time, and inferring their own Gate would be endangered... Maybe that'll spawn some surprise protection measure?~

Also, loved the beat panel with V :smalltongue:

[Murray]

I don't want to reopen the "crazy alignment talk" (and for the record, I at least picked up on that immediately), but I do have to say that your post, particularly the part I bolded, suggests a misunderstanding of how the Giant, at least, approaches the alignment system.

Rich has stated a distaste for how the alignment pie chart has been used for such things, and it's probably a major theme in the comic. I'm just trying to focus more on game mechanics and less on genuine ethics and morals.

:smallfrown:

[Bulldog Psion]

My views were made in accordance with the limitations of the alignment pie chart, one that tends to allow PCs to commit genocide and murder simply because of an arbitrary statistic in a monster manual, and not in a real-world view of ethics. .

I find this type of statement to be quite irritating, given that the alignment system does not state this in the books, nor have I EVER seen it used that way in a game, either.

While it is true that goblins, evil dragons, etc. are usually shown as evil in the games I have seen, as a kind of default, I have NEVER in either a published or a homebrewed adventure seen the characters encouraged to commit "genocide" or "murder" simply because of an "arbitrary statistic". There is always a justification for their conflict with the creatures in question, even if that justification occupies only a small amount of "screen time" within the adventure -- which is, after all, mostly about people trying to have fun (heaven forbid!) with scenes of action and high peril.

I have ALWAYS seen humanoid opponents such as goblins, bugbears, etc. shown as being attacked by the PCs because they are raiding, killing, eating peasants, or carrying off slaves. There's no larger questioning of whether the humanoids would actually do this, but as depicted, killing them usually falls under the umbrella of "taking down as a hostile combatant who is wearing the finger bones of infants as a necklace and rescuing captives taken for slavery, eating, etc.". Not murder -- basically, war.

Non-humanoid opponents are usually shown as even more monstrous -- much more likely to be using humans and other sapient races as prey animals, slaves, or experimental victims.

I personally find dismissal of the PCs in a typical game as "mass murderers" to be histrionic, overblown, and quite frankly ridiculous, and dismissal of the alignment system on the same grounds to be be equally absurd.

[ti'esar]

Rich has stated a distaste for how the alignment pie chart has been used for such things, and it's probably a major theme in the comic. I'm just trying to focus more on game mechanics and less on genuine ethics and morals.

:smallfrown:

But the game mechanics don't support that either.

[skaddix]

I find this type of statement to be quite irritating, given that the alignment system does not state this in the books, nor have I EVER seen it used that way in a game, either.

While it is true that goblins, evil dragons, etc. are usually shown as evil in the games I have seen, as a kind of default, I have NEVER in either a published or a homebrewed adventure seen the characters encouraged to commit "genocide" or "murder" simply because of an "arbitrary statistic". There is always a justification for their conflict with the creatures in question, even if that justification occupies only a small amount of "screen time" within the adventure -- which is, after all, mostly about people trying to have fun (heaven forbid!) with scenes of action and high peril.

I have ALWAYS seen humanoid opponents such as goblins, bugbears, etc. shown as being attacked by the PCs because they are raiding, killing, eating peasants, or carrying off slaves. There's no larger questioning of whether the humanoids would actually do this, but as depicted, killing them usually falls under the umbrella of "taking down as a hostile combatant who is wearing the finger bones of infants as a necklace and rescuing captives taken for slavery, eating, etc.". Not murder -- basically, war.

Non-humanoid opponents are usually shown as even more monstrous -- much more likely to be using humans and other sapient races as prey animals, slaves, or experimental victims.

I personally find dismissal of the PCs in a typical game as "mass murderers" to be histrionic, overblown, and quite frankly ridiculous, and dismissal of the alignment system on the same grounds to be be equally absurd.

Well yes but for all u know that use to be Goblin land before the humans rolled in and forced them out. Or are the European explorers righteous and the native Americans evil for scapling them when its the european's who came and took territory that does not belong to them.

As for a Dragon, it might simply just view everything as prey so makes no distinction between humans or cattle. Now from the human perspective sure that is evil from the dragon perspective not so much.

Now to say that should not kill the goblins but just because they are killing your people does not inherently make them evil. That is the problem with D&D, it views everything from the human perspective so sure the goblins look evil but they are not necessarily evil.

[Bad Hair Day]

I personally find dismissal of the PCs in a typical game as "mass murderers" to be histrionic, overblown, and quite frankly ridiculous, and dismissal of the alignment system on the same grounds to be be equally absurd.

Thanks for sharing.

That doesn't mean that there aren't games where PC's are played as murderers for the fun of it. When I was a high schooler and we played D&D all the time, we once had an adventure where we were not the ones rescuing the princess, but the ones capturing her and bringing her to our leader, the anti-paladin. We had to come up with reasons to force her to marry him. The only trick that worked was after we burned a village and killed everyone in it and took her on a tour of the carnage. We then took her to her own home village and threatened to do it again. She relented. (We totally cribbed that idea from what General Tarquin did to Princess Leia in the movie "Star Wars.")

That was a fun campaign because it was a different set of problems we had to solve, and it was fun to play against type. And yes, there was a different kind of visceral thrill when we were stomping all over the village, a la Godzilla.

My Two Cents,

B.H.D.

Post Script: If you are the kind of person who thinks it is necessary for me to state that me and my buddies have all grown up into respectable adults with respectable families of our own in the 28 years since we "committed genocide in a fantasy game," then you probably aren't the kind of person I'd like to hang out with. But if you met me at a PTA meeting, I know just the things I'm suppose to say so that you think I'm a great guy who really understands your point of view and you are honored that I am the one teaching your precious little children...

[Bad Hair Day]

I just read the description for Resurrection and Raise Dead, and I don't see where the soul coming back gets to know the caster's alignment. Is this a common house rule I don't know about? Or did the author make this rule up for his world and use it previously and I missed it (I've read all the books/comics)?

Thanks,

B.H.D.

[t209]

I just read the description for Resurrection and Raise Dead, and I don't see where the soul coming back gets to know the caster's alignment. Is this a common house rule I don't know about? Or did the author make this rule up for his world and use it previously and I missed it (I've read all the books/comics)?

Thanks,

B.H.D.

I think the author meant the will of the dead since Draketooths feel paranoid and hated Lawful Character.
This is kinda Hypocrisy since they are kinda lawful zone (communal loyalty, cult)

[Warren Dew]

Funniest comic in a while.

"Close. My dad is a paranoid fool who will suffer just to spite someone."

Also,

"It stands to reason he taught his family the same way."

"Lawful types do have a tendency to try to make everyone else think the same way they do"

I guess it's not just lawful types … unless Haley thinks Girard was lawful, which seems unlikely.

[The MunchKING]

He might also be getting why he can't figure out his dad....

I didn't think about it that way, but it does make sense. And also why his dad keeps trying to pass his tyrannical ways on to Elan.

[The MunchKING]

I just read the description for Resurrection and Raise Dead, and I don't see where the soul coming back gets to know the caster's alignment. Is this a common house rule I don't know about? Or did the author make this rule up for his world and use it previously and I missed it (I've read all the books/comics)?

Thanks,

B.H.D.

Did you read the section on actually coming back from the dead?? I think that's where that rule is, but I'm not sure...

[Finagle]

Here's what I don't get:

Of all the Draketooths, why raise the fighter guy? There were many different people, some obviously magicians. Why not raise the most important-looking one? The guy in the middle of the death scene with the ponytail looks a lot Girard, it's probably Orrin. But instead, they try to raise the only non-magical Draketooth?

Yeah, sure, he could be multiclass or something. But still, raise a guy in wizardy robes at least.

[eilandesq]

Did you read the section on actually coming back from the dead?? I think that's where that rule is, but I'm not sure...

Yep--it's the last subsection in "Bringing Back The Dead" in the 3.5 Reference Document:

Revivification against One’s Will

A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.

Which, as someone suggested earlier, makes one wonder why knowing that a cleric of Thor was trying to raise them would make a Draketooth that paranoid, given that the Northern Gods and their followers weren't known associates with Soon or his paladins. Other than the "they're just really *that* paranoid" catch-all argument.

[irenicObserver]

I'm sure it's just the fact that he's Lawful.

[ti'esar]

(We totally cribbed that idea from what General Tarquin did to Princess Leia in the movie "Star Wars.")

General Tarquin is Elan's dad. The villain in Star Wars is Governor/Grand Moff Tarkin.

Perhaps you have too much OOTS on your brain?

[Warren Dew]

Here's what I don't get:

Of all the Draketooths, why raise the fighter guy?
Because the decision was made by Roy, a fighter guy?

[t209]

Here's what I don't get:

Of all the Draketooths, why raise the fighter guy? There were many different people, some obviously magicians. Why not raise the most important-looking one? The guy in the middle of the death scene with the ponytail looks a lot Girard, it's probably Orrin. But instead, they try to raise the only non-magical Draketooth?

Yeah, sure, he could be multiclass or something. But still, raise a guy in wizardy robes at least.

I think he's the oldest member of the Draketooths. Look at his Reeds Richard hair. He might be a patriach of the family which means that he is the one who knows about the temple the most.

[No brains]

Blathering: I felt the joke was rather weak. Any time any one says any thing, they are trying to make someone think as they do. Moreover, Roy was right: the argument was pointless and V has been gone a few too many panels.

I guess I'm of lawful alignment... 9_9

[Warren Dew]

I think he's the oldest member of the Draketooths. Look at his Reeds Richard hair. He might be a patriach of the family which means that he is the one who knows about the temple the most.
The white haired old lady looked older to me.

[Red XIV]

That's assuming he can cast Resurrection. We haven't seen him cast a spell above sixth level yet.
Given the way Malack effortlessly trounced Nale, who's presumably of the same level as Elan (and thus probably within 1 level in either direction of Durkon), it stands to reason that Malack is of a higher level than Durkon.


Failed resurrection was amusing. I expected it to be based on familicide actually, rather than just paranoia. It would take away from the familicide spell if any close friends or family could raise the dead person without epic magic of their own, but perhaps that would be too much.
Familicide's way overpowered even by Epic standards as it is. That would indeed be too much.


Raise Dead probably won't work on someone killed by Familicide. Raise Dead can't be used to raise someone killed by a Death Effect, which Familicide probably is. Resurrection doesn't have that limit, so Familicide would probably have to completely destroy the body, or somehow trap or destroy the soul, to prevent resurrection.
Of course, given that Durkon doesn't know what the cause of death was, he might have tried Raise Dead first. Lower cost in diamonds, after all. On the other hand, Raise Dead has a time limit of one day per caster level after the target's death. Since that was at least 14 days ago, and we think Durkon's level 14 IIRC, it might simply be too late for Raise Dead.


I wonder what role the Gate tracking device will play out in the story. For one, it should have alerted the Draketooth clan of three Gates being destroyed in a short amount of time, and inferring their own Gate would be endangered... Maybe that'll spawn some surprise protection measure?~
Lirian's Gate was destroyed many years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html).


I think he's the oldest member of the Draketooths. Look at his Reeds Richard hair. He might be a patriach of the family which means that he is the one who knows about the temple the most.
Maybe, but if that's what Roy was going with it's a fairly weak assumption. We also saw a bald spellcaster and a woman with completely white hair (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html), who are most likely older than the fighter.

Not to mention that, given the continued use of illusions as the primary line of defense for the gate, it seems likely that a spellcaster would be in charge rather than a melee combatant.

[zimmerwald1915]

Given the way Malack effortlessly trounced Nale, who's presumably of the same level as Elan (and thus probably within 1 level in either direction of Durkon), it stands to reason that Malack is of a higher level than Durkon.
Which is an assumption. Malack effortlessly trounced Nale by making good use of two sixth-level spells. Durkon had trouble with Nale and Sabine because he made ineffective use of - and Thor sabotaged his use of - his seventh-level spells. Competence trumped spell level. The fight between Enor and Ganjii on the one hand and Haley, Elan, and Vaarsuvius also reminds us that competence trumps character level.

The evidence suggests that Malack is competent, not that he is of a higher level than Durkon.

[BriarHobbit]

It's interesting that designer flaws/choices triggered the destruction of the last three gates. A gate susceptible to fire. A gate with a mystic self destruct button. A gate destroyed by the fanaticism of one of its own guardians. Now, the defenses of the fourth gate are severely weakened. We will see if the pattern holds.

[Bad Hair Day]

General Tarquin is Elan's dad. The villain in Star Wars is Governor/Grand Moff Tarkin.

Perhaps you have too much OOTS on your brain?

It was deliberate. Tarquin. Tarkin. Same thing? Yeah? Meh.

I also said "Star Wars" to annoy those young whippersnappers who insist on calling it "Episode 4 A New Hope." It is an honest to god real policy in my classroom that if they call Star Wars anything but Star Wars, they lose points on the next quiz or homework.

[Flame of Anor]

Just saying, this sounds a bit too much like an excuse to prevent the "well, they can still resurrect them and fight the bad guys together" thing.
One would expect that at this point a Gate's safety would go beyond a grudge, expecially when you suddenly died for no apparent reason and everyone else may have fell the same. Expecially when they're all likely to have met in the afterlife all at the same time, given their same time of death and probably same alignment.

It's believable, but still smells a bit too much like plot excuse.

Question. Wouldn't Girard's gate defenders know that Durkon is a cleric of Thor. Raise dead spells also communicate your patron deity, and thus they should know it's not the sapphire guard rezzing them.

I'm not satisfied with this comic, for these reasons. It just feels contrived. I would bet anything that in a realistic scenario, at least one of the Draketooths would be willing to return--with so many reasons to:


It's obviously not Soon's men if they're worshipping Thor
They should do whatever it takes to protect the Gate
It's only natural to be really curious about what could have happened


But Durkon probably won't try any of the others, or if he does it'll be passed off with "oh, it didn't work for them either". This is honestly the first time I've ever felt this way about OotS, but if it happens the way I've said it will be not just bad in the story but bad writing. :smallmad:


It was deliberate. Tarquin. Tarkin. Same thing? Yeah? Meh.

No. He's named after the Roman kings. Check the Giant's Quote Compendium thread for where he says so.

[M84]

It's interesting that designer flaws/choices triggered the destruction of the last three gates. A gate susceptible to fire. A gate with a mystic self destruct button. A gate destroyed by the fanaticism of one of its own guardians. Now, the defenses of the fourth gate are severely weakened. We will see if the pattern holds.

The last gate's defenses are a bunch of huge monsters. Simple, but effective. Unless the invader also has a powerful monster at his beck and call, like a certain MitD.

[cc_kizz]

Elan is just such a sweet character. :smallsmile:

As for the height of the gate condition indicators, I imagine it's just a perspective variance.

This story is so epic! I can't wait (but can!) to find out how it ends.

[JCarter426]

Wow, Durkon actually prepared the right spell. I'm impressed. So, Speak with Dead next?

Is this the first time we've seen Roy or Haley actually pay after one of their bets?

The colors on the pie chart alert system were used to represent the gates before. The whole thing bears semblance to the original revelation of the gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). And it looks very ominous indeed.

It's possible that not all of the Draketooth clan would be averse to being resurrected by a lawful good character. In particular, the small girl shown at the bottom right corner of the last panel in strip 841 is probably too young to have developed any deep-seated ideological convictions yet. However, if they can communicate with each other in the afterlife as Roy could with his dead relatives, the group may well be able to persuade any particular one of them to refuse the resurrection. The small girl may be especially susceptible to this.

Of course, if they have no more diamond dust or if Familicide is resurrection-proof this is moot anyway.
It's possible the girl can't be resurrected - on account of her Constitution being too low, for example.

[2xMachina]

:haley: : Lawfuls tend to force people to think the same way
:durkon:,:roy: : No we don't. Stop thinking that way.

[eilandesq]

It's interesting that designer flaws/choices triggered the destruction of the last three gates. A gate susceptible to fire. A gate with a mystic self destruct button. A gate destroyed by the fanaticism of one of its own guardians. Now, the defenses of the fourth gate are severely weakened. We will see if the pattern holds.

It already has, really--though in theory the OotS could salvage things long enough to find a new guardian. Girard's paranoia led to his trusting only his blood relatives as guardians of the gate, which made Familicide a 100% effective method for annihilating them and the magic that hid the gate.*

*--given the habits of dragons regarding breeding with anything with a pulse, Familicide may well have taken out a substantial portion of the guardians of Kraagor's Gate as well--but we won't know until later.

[luc258]

I'm a bit surprised that three good aligned people spend ten minutes casting ressurection instead of going after their team mate who is obviously not hirself from something and just run off into a pyramid that was built to be a deathtrap for invaders.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm a bit surprised that three good aligned people spend ten minutes casting ressurection instead of going after their team mate who is obviously not hirself from something and just run off into a pyramid that was built to be a deathtrap for invaders.

They don't know where V went except downstairs to the entrance level. They didn't see where (s)he went beyond that.

[luc258]

They don't know where V went except downstairs to the entrance level. They didn't see where (s)he went beyond that.

So they should be searching for him/her. That's what people do when their friends run off into danger, in my opinion at least.

[LordShotGun]

Ouch, Elan lost a finger in panel 8 :smalleek:

Made me recheck and owch, yeah he did!

[dtilque]

Given that Vaarsuvius is trapped and unconscious, what odds would you put on someone else telling the Order about Familicide before V gets the chance?

Currently I'd put chance of it at around 95%. Narratively, it produces conflict and complicates the plot, and enables a much greater variety of potential outcomes than V just explaining everything his/herself.

It may make sense narratively, but there's only a limited number of other characters who know about the Familicide. Blackwing does, but he's hors de combat along with V. The IFCC also know, but they rarely manifest on the material plane. The dragon and V's family are out of the picture, plotwise.

That leaves Qarr. Yeah, he might tell them if the opportunity presents. Be interesting if it happens.


On a separate topic, I note that Haley took out her bag of holding. I suppose this is a subtle way of telling us that the bag we last see in #809 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html) has been returned to her.

[RMS Oceanic]

So they should be searching for him/her. That's what people do when their friends run off into danger, in my opinion at least.

It's not the first time. (http://i47.tinypic.com/30cmw5d.jpg) :smalltongue:

I'm guessing they assumed V just went outside for fresh air, so decided to try and unravel the Mystery of the Mummies in the Lunch Room™. It didn't twig with them that V might get into trouble.

[LadyEowyn]

I'm not getting Haley's comment that the Draketooths "died so quickly, they probably don't even know they're dead". They've been dead for a couple weeks now.

[Hopeless]

It already has, really--though in theory the OotS could salvage things long enough to find a new guardian. Girard's paranoia led to his trusting only his blood relatives as guardians of the gate, which made Familicide a 100% effective method for annihilating them and the magic that hid the gate.*

*--given the habits of dragons regarding breeding with anything with a pulse, Familicide may well have taken out a substantial portion of the guardians of Kraagor's Gate as well--but we won't know until later.

And what about Malach's family?

Didn't he say they had been slain as well?

But then how was he spared if he was related as part of the family?

Sorry not sure if this relevant but felt it ought to be mentioned...

[Cirin]

I very much doubt it. The only in-comic thing we know of that can annihiliate souls is the Snarl. Even Xykon can only Soul Bind.

Besides, Tiamat would probably have been even more upset with the IFCC if the dragons' souls had been annihilated rather than consigned to spend an eternity with her in the afterlife. Upset enough to kill.

Also, right before casting Familicide, V said to the dragon that she'd be back with her family soon. If it annihilates souls, V didn't know about it when casting (of course, that wouldn't be the only thing missed in the full spell description). Also, annihilating souls would take an already ridiculously powerful spell (probably the most powerful Necromancy ever, like Cloister is the most powerful Abjuration ever) and make it way, way more ridiculous since as said, death effects don't normally do that. There are only a handful of effects in standard D&D that I know that can kill somebody so bad they can't come back. The Feed ability of a Barghest can do it, there is a special epic poison called Mortu in the Epic Level Handbook which can do it, the Death card in a Deck of Many Things can result in permanent death if the character is slain by the Minor Death it summons.

[Kish]

I'm not getting Haley's comment that the Draketooths "died so quickly, they probably don't even know they're dead". They've been dead for a couple weeks now.
You left out an important word.
"They probably don't know they're all dead."

Each individual Draketooth, she's saying, is likely to respond to a Resurrection from Durkon with, "As if, paladin scum! However you killed me, the rest of my family will kill you and resurrect me any minute now!"

And what about Malach's family?

Didn't he say they had been slain as well?

But then how was he spared if he was related as part of the family?

Sorry not sure if this relevant but felt it ought to be mentioned...
Malack's three children were unambiguously murdered by Nale.

No one is less forgiving of Vaarsuvius than me, but let's not start attributing every death in the world to him.

[HandofShadows]

I'm not getting Haley's comment that the Draketooths "died so quickly, they probably don't even know they're dead". They've been dead for a couple weeks now.

The people that died know they are dead. But they probably don't know that everyone *else* is dead as well. If they knew that they might come back to see what is going on and to try and defend the gate.


And things are bad when Elan gets it and others don't.

[theNater]

I'm a bit surprised that three good aligned people spend ten minutes casting ressurection instead of going after their team mate who is obviously not hirself from something and just run off into a pyramid that was built to be a deathtrap for invaders.
Remember, Haley guessed that Vaarsuvius was headed outside to vomit. The path to the door was clear, so there's no reason for them to think V's in danger. They probably want to be considerate of V's dignity, and are getting some work done while waiting until V feels ready to come back in.

The next time they stop and take stock, they'll probably comment how odd it is V's not back yet, and go from there.

[LadyEowyn]

The people that died know they are dead. But they probably don't know that everyone *else* is dead as well. If they knew that they might come back to see what is going on and to try and defend the gate.

But if they've all been dead for two weeks, at least some of them will be bunched together in a single afterlife, and they'll have had time to realize that.

[Kish]

I am dubious that anyone is bunched together...ever...in the Chaotic Neutral afterlife. (There are probably faceless crowds in some "places," but, actually faceless.)

And remember how long it took Roy to realize that he had even been in the (way more orderly, presumably) Lawful Good afterlife more than a day? And the number of people he had previously known who he saw without being specifically guided to by his archon? (0.)

[Burner28]

Interesting strip.

[Cirin]

Frankly, given the oddness that has been going on with the whole "world within a world" thing, I'd say we're not completely sure if the Snarl even actually does that. It seems advisable, at this point, to take everything we've been told about the Snarl with a grain of salt.

Well, we know that Soon Kim's wife Mijung was killed by the Snarl in the encounter that first revealed the Snarl to the world.

Even with all their access to Epic magic, the Order of the Scribble couldn't restore Mijung to life.

So, while we certainly don't know everything there is to know about the Snarl, it's safe to assume that anybody killed by it is not being brought back to life on their world..

[TowerWizard]

I have not read all replies, but from the ones I read, I found it strange that so few complained about this comic.

Why ruin the suspense about what happened to V by just showing hir like that? It filled no purpose in the plot in the comic, it was just to satisfy the readers curiosity. I think it would have been more suspenseful to what with that reveal until it made sense in the plot.

That "reason" for the resurrection to fail did not satisfy me. Why would the spell supply information about ONLY alignment? Why not class/race too? Makes no sense.

Also, come on readers. Don't say you don't know whether V is alive or not. It is easy. X in eyes = dead. It is not hard.

I love OotS, but this strip is not one of my top 500 strips.

Edit: The diamond dust should not be used up if the spell fails.

[BaronOfHell]

Nice with a high speed less dark strip!

Though I wonder, Haley postulated they [guardians of Girard's gate] died so quickly that they don't know they all died. Unless the afterlife they went to works differently, I'd have thought they actually had good possibilities to know about this during those weeks.

In any case, there might be several possible explanations to this and I look forward to see what it is. So far I think Haley simply guessed wrong, but she could be right of course.


Why ruin the suspense about what happened to V by just showing hir like that? It filled no purpose in the plot in the comic [...]

Roy: But just because it's still functioning doesn't mean it isn't being corrupted as we speak by whatever new villain killed these people
**scene change to V**
So I think it served a quite clear purpose, if you don't think telling V is alive isn't sufficient purpose.

[Jay R]

I have not read all replies, but from the ones I read, I found it strange that so few complained about this comic.

Why ruin the suspense about what happened to V by just showing hir like that? It filled no purpose in the plot in the comic, it was just to satisfy the readers curiosity. I think it would have been more suspenseful to what with that reveal until it made sense in the plot.

The purpose it filled in the comic was to emphasize the contrast between what V is really doing and Roy's immediate guess about the other gate being corrupted as we speak by whatever new villain killed these people, thus making it more obvious that their first reaction will be to consider V a villain.

This is called thesis / antithesis, and sets up the suspense of what will be the synthesis - what will they think when they combine their ideas of their team member with "whatever new villain killed these people"?

[Voidfaith]

...or else Miko stabs you.

[TowerWizard]

Roy: But just because it's still functioning doesn't mean it isn't being corrupted as we speak by whatever new villain killed these people
**scene change to V**
So I think it served a quite clear purpose, if you don't think telling V is alive isn't sufficient purpose.

First of all: It is obviously not the same person who killed the Draketooths who also set the traps in the pyramid, so some theoretical *new villain* could not be blamed for them, right?

Second of all: They have no idea that V is even in danger, so it makes no sense to switch to V at that comment, suggesting a connection between that comment and V.

That is, if I understand what you mean by "purpose" correctly here.



This is called thesis / antithesis, and sets up the suspense of what will be the synthesis - what will they think when they combine their ideas of their team member with "whatever new villain killed these people"?

You are not suggesting that they will make an enemy of V? I find that extremely hard to grasp. Hir is the most powerful member of the group, without whom they have no real hope of defeating Xykon. I think they will be mad at hir, sure. Madhatter monkey murder mad. But to make an enemy of V? No. Just... No. Besides, this might have been the only way they could have gained entrance to the pyramid at all, as they pointed out some strips ago.

[BaronOfHell]

I bolded it out for you and then you removed that bold in the reply. If you aren't misunderstanding on purpose (trolling), then fair enough. I'll try again. Roy thinks someone unknown killed them all. Roy doesn't know who exactly it is, but thinks it's a new villain.Then the scene changes to V, showing it's V who's the person Roy talks about (Roy doesn't know it's V who's done this).

If you don't get my point, I won't repeat it, sorry. If you disagree, then fair enough, each to their own interpretation.

[Dwy]

Brilliant comic!

I know this may sound weird, but I've come to appreciate the slower paced comics very much. Sure, plot is cool, but it shouldn't be forced. This one manages to let the readers be lulled into a false sense of temporary safety. And it with a few like this, the plot heavy strips will feel alot more satisfying when they show up.

[TowerWizard]

@ BaronOfHell: I was not trolling, I was just slow. Saw no connection between villains and V and still don't. But I understand now what you meant, and what Rich meant. I will be surprised and disappointed at Roy and the others in the Order if they will see hir like that, because it is so far out.

[phantomreader42]

I have not read all replies, but from the ones I read, I found it strange that so few complained about this comic.

Why ruin the suspense about what happened to V by just showing hir like that? It filled no purpose in the plot in the comic, it was just to satisfy the readers curiosity. I think it would have been more suspenseful to what with that reveal until it made sense in the plot.

Notice the cut to V right after the remark about "whatever new villain killed them". THAT is the point of the cut at that moment. The "new villain" is right there, not corrupting anything, and neither particularly new nor in a position to do much more villainy right now.


That "reason" for the resurrection to fail did not satisfy me. Why would the spell supply information about ONLY alignment? Why not class/race too? Makes no sense.

As I recall from the rules, the target is aware of the caster's name, alignment, patron deity, and I think which spell is being used. Class/race not included, but can perhaps be derived (druids cannot cast Resurrection, and one presumes few humans worship Tiamat, for example).

[Kish]

@ BaronOfHell: I was not trolling, I was just slow. Saw no connection between villains and V and still don't. But I understand now what you meant, and what Rich meant. I will be surprised and disappointed at Roy and the others in the Order if they will see hir like that, because it is so far out.
Urgh.

It has nothing to do with the Order seeing Vaarsuvius as a villain.

Roy mentioned the person who killed the Draketooths.

We got an immediate cut to the person who killed the Draketooths.

That is all.

[t209]

The white haired old lady looked older to me.

I think that would probably his wife. I mean if they wanted to ask about the castle, they have to find the leader or higher ops.
What power does D&D Dragonblood have? I know they won't have Dragonshouts from Skyrim, but I heard that they change themselves into dragons? What's difference between Draketooths and D&D Dragonborns other than their draconic ancestry?
To those who do not play skyrim- "Dragonborn" from Skyrim gained gifts from the dragon god, not from mating.

[BaronOfHell]

I was not trolling
Sorry about accusing you then!:smallsmile:


I will be surprised and disappointed at Roy and the others in the Order if they will see hir like that, because it is so far out.

Like kish writes above, it's not that V's percieved as a villian.
It's that the person Roy describes as villain turns out to be V. Or at least I'm pretty confident that's what the panel change is showing.

[Zombieboots]

The same could be said of some players.

Good strip.

[MReav]

If Durkon has Scribe Scroll, maybe he could scribe a Resurrection and have Haley use UMD. Or does Haley not have UMD?

[Kish]

If Durkon has Scribe Scroll, maybe he could scribe a Resurrection and have Haley use UMD. Or does Haley not have UMD?
Haley has Use Magic Device. (Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales)Enough to reliably use a Teleport scroll, when she was lower-level than she is now.
Whether Durkon has Scribe Scroll is another question.

[SteveMB]

how long will it take them to realize V isn't there? and did the Saph Guard ever mention their monitoring system?

Huh? They already know V flipped out and ran off -- the question is when they'll decide "s/he's been gone too long; better go look for hir...".

[SteveMB]

Of course, an argument could be made that the Draketooth clan's postmortem paranoia makes even less sense given that they obviously would have realised that two gates were destroyed in less than a year, including Soon's. They could maybe think the Sapphire Guard tried to seize Dorukan's gate and failed, but what motivation would they have to destroy their own gate?

That's the characters' inference for why the Resurrection didn't work. It may or may not be true. (It may or may not matter whether or not it's true; in the latter case, we may never get anything to confirm or refute it.)

It does fit what we know about Girard (and what he would therefore teach his followers), so there's no real reason to doubt it, but the door is open for another explanation if and when the story calls for it.

[silvadel]

They could learn something from tsukiko -- The buddy system. You should never have one adventurer going alone anywhere unless it is the party rogue scouting ahead. Especially not the mage with no con bonus or the cleric.

[Doug Lampert]

Rich has stated a distaste for how the alignment pie chart has been used for such things, and it's probably a major theme in the comic. I'm just trying to focus more on game mechanics and less on genuine ethics and morals.

:smallfrown:

The game mechanics as writen in the PHB actually agree with Rich, not you. I can't help how you game, but genocide is clearly evil by the rules, a character being evil clearly doesn't neccessarily justify killing it by the rules (you need an actual crime), and races are never a monolithic alignment by the rules (not even "always" races), and goblins and orcs aren't even always races.

Killing a goblin because he's a goblin is flat out evil by the rules as writen.

[jidasfire]

Thanks for sharing.

That doesn't mean that there aren't games where PC's are played as murderers for the fun of it. When I was a high schooler and we played D&D all the time, we once had an adventure where we were not the ones rescuing the princess, but the ones capturing her and bringing her to our leader, the anti-paladin. We had to come up with reasons to force her to marry him. The only trick that worked was after we burned a village and killed everyone in it and took her on a tour of the carnage. We then took her to her own home village and threatened to do it again. She relented. (We totally cribbed that idea from what General Tarquin did to Princess Leia in the movie "Star Wars.")

That was a fun campaign because it was a different set of problems we had to solve, and it was fun to play against type. And yes, there was a different kind of visceral thrill when we were stomping all over the village, a la Godzilla.

My Two Cents,

B.H.D.

Post Script: If you are the kind of person who thinks it is necessary for me to state that me and my buddies have all grown up into respectable adults with respectable families of our own in the 28 years since we "committed genocide in a fantasy game," then you probably aren't the kind of person I'd like to hang out with. But if you met me at a PTA meeting, I know just the things I'm suppose to say so that you think I'm a great guy who really understands your point of view and you are honored that I am the one teaching your precious little children...

Leaving aside the oddly creepy and defensive tone of your argument, I don't think that's what Bulldog Psion was talking about. A common dismissal of heroic fantasy gaming is that it's just an excuse for engaging bloodlust and racism, justified because the victims have green skin instead of a more human color, and because the rules describe them as innately evil. His point, and I agree, is that not all gamers who fight monsters are necessarily doing so out of some veiled bigotry, and for the most part, the rules are also not saying that. That isn't a judgment about people playing characters who are in fact demonstrably villains like you describe, which is a perfectly valid path as long as you're honest about it. His comment more relates to the idea that fantasy gamers are immoral and racist because they're "grave-robbing murderers who slaughters green people because they are arbitrarily called evil." It's not something I've seen in a lot of games either, but it's a common criticism.

[Smolder]

Killing a goblin because he's a goblin is flat out evil by the rules as writen.

Unless you yell, "They're coming right for us!"
Then it's self defense, and rewarded with XP.

[LordRahl6]

That's the characters' inference for why the Resurrection didn't work. It may or may not be true. (It may or may not matter whether or not it's true; in the latter case, we may never get anything to confirm or refute it.)

It does fit what we know about Girard (and what he would therefore teach his followers), so there's no real reason to doubt it, but the door is open for another explanation if and when the story calls for it.

The other possiblity involves that the Familicide Spell was sooo high level that Durkon couldn't penetrate it.:smallwink: However even if the he was able to break through the triggering of the spell at the false location would be further incentive for any souls to stay away.:smallfrown: LOVE the cutaway to V not just to show us how he's doing, but emphasizing that it was his actions.:smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

The other possiblity involves that the Familicide Spell was sooo high level that Durkon couldn't penetrate it.:smallwink:

Nope, all continuing magical effects ended when the splice did. There is no magic related to Familicide that stops the resurection because all magic from familicide is gone, kaput. That's part of the described deal and mechanism for how the splice worked.

[Zombieboots]

Nope, all continuing magical effects ended when the splice did. There is no magic related to Familicide that stops the resurection because all magic from familicide is gone, kaput. That's part of the described deal and mechanism for how the splice worked.

So I'm a little curious thanks to Familicide how much of the worlds population in general has been eliminated. In the mosaic panel of the Familicide spell I saw a centaur-drake, and other mixed breeds.
V cast it so that no one of the Dragon's family would come after him/her and him/her family again but now that it's been spelled out for us. It seems likely that another group of Adventurers would probably be setting up to hunt down V.

[KingFlameHawk]

I'm not satisfied with this comic, for these reasons. It just feels contrived. I would bet anything that in a realistic scenario, at least one of the Draketooths would be willing to return--with so many reasons to:


It's obviously not Soon's men if they're worshipping Thor
They should do whatever it takes to protect the Gate
It's only natural to be really curious about what could have happened


But Durkon probably won't try any of the others, or if he does it'll be passed off with "oh, it didn't work for them either". This is honestly the first time I've ever felt this way about OotS, but if it happens the way I've said it will be not just bad in the story but bad writing. :smallmad:


I think there are a few things you are missing:
1. Their thought process is most likely that any lawful good cleric, regard less of diety is an ally of Soon and his men and can't be trusted. Also this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)comic shows that Girard think of the 12 gods of the south as a " glorified petting zoo", showing a disbelief of, or at least mistrust of gods in the first place so Durkon being a cleric of Thor obviously makes no difference.
2. They probably think they are. If they don't know that everyone is dead their thought process is most likely "I am died, A lawful cleric (obviously one of Soon's lackeys) is trying to raise me, if he does he will likely torture me or mind control me until I give him information on the gate, I better stay dead"
3. I am pretty sure that distrust can override curiousity in this case if they are this level of chaotic, also it has been shown that if someone is curious they don't need to be raised they can just go to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) demiplane a watch them, or just go down themselves.

[thepsyker]

Haley has Use Magic Device. (Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales)Enough to reliably use a Teleport scroll, when she was lower-level than she is now.
Whether Durkon has Scribe Scroll is another question.
Aren't the stories, other than the Stick Tales framing story, in SSaDT considered a separate continuity from the main comic? I thought Rich mentioned that in the commentary for the 4 edition story.


edit: Something occurred to me, is it possible that after dying the Draketooths found out what killed them and that V is responsible, so that they are not refusing resurrection because Durkan is LG, but because he is in the same party as the person who killed them?

[Cirin]

Aren't the stories, other than the Stick Tales framing story, in SSaDT considered a separate continuity from the main comic? I thought Rich mentioned that in the commentary for the 4 edition story.


It's gets fuzzy.

Belkar being an accomplished gourmet chef came originally from the "separate continuity" Dragon Magazine comics, also reprinted in that collection.

His gourmet culinary skills have now come up twice in the main story: Late in the Battle of Azure City when he cooked for the MitD to barter for Roy's corpse, and the rescue of V from his extraplanar exile.

Sounds like the precedent is that the actual events of the side-comics are a separate continuity, but skills & abilities of the characters are constant in both.

Since Use Magic Device is a class skill for Rogues (and was based off the AD&D ability of Thieves to use scrolls), having Haley be able to use a Resurrection scroll is quite plausible.

[Bengui]

I would bet anything that in a realistic scenario, at least one of the Draketooths would be willing to return--with so many reasons to:


Certainly. But you need to find this specific Drakethooth before you can raise him. Are they going to blow 5000 gp on every corpse until one of them comes back ? you can't guess which ones will be willing to just by looking at their earthly remains.

[Mantine]

I think there are a few things you are missing:
1. Their thought process is most likely that any lawful good cleric, regard less of diety is an ally of Soon and his men and can't be trusted. Also this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)comic shows that Girard think of the 12 gods of the south as a " glorified petting zoo", showing a disbelief of, or at least mistrust of gods in the first place so Durkon being a cleric of Thor obviously makes no difference.
"Obviously", no less?
His contempt may be directed only at those 12, there's nothing obvious here.
Also, thinking that any lawful-good cleric would be nothing but an enemy is definitely a stretch here.

2. They probably think they are. If they don't know that everyone is dead their thought process is most likely "I am died, A lawful cleric (obviously one of Soon's lackeys) is trying to raise me, if he does he will likely torture me or mind control me until I give him information on the gate, I better stay dead"
"obviously", again.
Also, paladins torturing and mind controlling people?

Girard knows full well how paladins think and act, that's the very basic reason for his contempt towards them.
If there would be one prone to torture/mind control, that would be Girard, not lawful-good paladins.

3. I am pretty sure that distrust can override curiousity in this case if they are this level of chaotic, also it has been shown that if someone is curious they don't need to be raised they can just go to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) demiplane a watch them, or just go down themselves.
The canyon prevents scrying, and there's no amount of "distrust" enough to justify putting the entire world in danger just for the sake of it.

Sorry, I'm just not buying any of these reasons.

[Gusion]

Okay, 4 things here.

1. The effects of the Familicide Spell have been great enough that it really should have attracted more divine intervention than it has. All we know is that Tiamat is unhappy. But this kind of spell should have attracted the attention of a couple of Avatars at the very least.

2. I concur with Finagle - the party made a stupid decision on who to try to rez. Not that it matters, really, but it is the little things you know.

3. Lots of people are missing the point that the reasons the characters are stating for why the resurrection didn't work doesn't mean those reasons are accurate. They're just pulling guesses out of their collective asses.

4. I wonder if the IFCC views it in their self-interest to keep V alive for a while longer... obviously the more powerful V upon death the better for the IFCC. I figure they'd at least want V to reach level 20...

[Red XIV]

"Obviously", no less?
His contempt may be directed only at those 12, there's nothing obvious here.
Also, thinking that any lawful-good cleric would be nothing but an enemy is definitely a stretch here.
Girard's comment may have only referred to the 12 Gods of the Southern Continent. But it came off to me as him being contemptuous of the very concept of worshiping a god or gods.


I wonder if the IFCC views it in their self-interest to keep V alive for a while longer... obviously the more powerful V upon death the better for the IFCC. I figure they'd at least want V to reach level 20...
V seems to assume that the IFCC will get their time controlling him upon his death. But they never actually said that. It's entirely possible (IMO, probable) that they'll end up taking control of him while he's still alive. Taking possession of his soul for 44 minutes and 16 seconds after his death would be of limited use at best. Doing so for the same amount of time while he's alive , on the other hand, could be a lot more useful.

[ti'esar]

Girard's comment may have only referred to the 12 Gods of the Southern Continent. But it came off to me as him being contemptuous of the very concept of worshiping a god or gods.

For what it's worth, I agree - it's not just the Southern Gods he has a beef with.

[GMantis]

"obviously", again.
Also, paladins torturing and mind controlling people?

Girard knows full well how paladins think and act, that's the very basic reason for his contempt towards them.
If there would be one prone to torture/mind control, that would be Girard, not lawful-good paladins.

Girard actually knew very little about how paladins think and act. Otherwise he wouldn't have thought that they would break their oath.

[LadyEowyn]

I don't think it's just the Southern Gods; Girard comes across very strongly as the OotS-verse's Christopher Hitchens. Which is a bit Flat Earth Atheist, considering the context...

[M.A.D]

4. I wonder if the IFCC views it in their self-interest to keep V alive for a while longer... obviously the more powerful V upon death the better for the IFCC. I figure they'd at least want V to reach level 20...

Many people are saying that they are not waiting for V to die before collecting her soul, that is, to take control of her body and cause damage where it's most vital for their plan. That said, it would have been for naught if she died right there

[Warren Dew]

But I understand now what you meant, and what Rich meant. I will be surprised and disappointed at Roy and the others in the Order if they will see hir like that, because it is so far out.
I think Rich meant to use the cutaway to show two things. One, Vaarsuvius is still alive. Two, Roy's belief that the killings were caused by a new villain is incorrect, because they were caused by Vaaruvius, who is not a villain.


I think that would probably his wife.
She had a few strands of red hair left, which I take to be an implication that she's a descendant of the Draketooth dragon. Based on what happened with Penelope, I don't think the Draketeeth kept their spouses around.

[Mantine]

Girard actually knew very little about how paladins think and act. Otherwise he wouldn't have thought that they would break their oath.
He knew so little that he traveled with one for years.

[GMantis]

He knew so little that he traveled with one for years.
And he obviously learned nothing about them in all those years. Makes it more likely that he'll believe anything about paladins.

[ti'esar]

I don't think it's just the Southern Gods; Girard comes across very strongly as the OotS-verse's Christopher Hitchens. Which is a bit Flat Earth Atheist, considering the context...

In his defense, undeniably real or not, the OOTS gods have not shown themselves as particularly worthy of devotion. I'm not sure I'd be inclined to worship them either, although Girard's attitude does seem rather more extreme then, say, someone like Roy.

To put in TV Tropes terms, I'd peg Girard more as the Nay Theist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NayTheist) then the Flat Earth Atheist.


And he obviously learned nothing about them in all those years. Makes it more likely that he'll believe anything about paladins.

Right. You can certainly make the argument that the Draketooths' refusing resurrection is contrived, but don't try and base it on their knowledge of how paladins operate.

If anything, I think his travels with Soon made Girard all the more convinced of his view of paladins, if they didn't create it in the first place.

[rbetieh]

Rbetieh's silly musing # 15678 : This comic makes me think that the OOTScribble had their falling because of a bad argument about Trivial Pursuit.

[Mantine]

And he obviously learned nothing about them in all those years. Makes it more likely that he'll believe anything about paladins.
Again with the crazy assumptions?
"he learned nothing" "he'll believe anything"

All we know is that he believed Soon able to break an oath for the sake of world protection, which isn't the same as thinking that a paladin would resort to torturing people. Let's not be crazy now.

[Forikroder]

i cant help but think of a dead guy sitting in paradise and getting a message from one of those awful machines

"you have a ressurection from a -BSSSST- LAWFUL GOOD - Cleric, if you want to accept the ressurection press one, if you wish to remain dead press 2"

[t209]

She had a few strands of red hair left, which I take to be an implication that she's a descendant of the Draketooth dragon. Based on what happened with Penelope, I don't think the Draketeeth kept their spouses around.
He's likely to be more resurrected since older= more natural based death= no resurrection. I mean he's younger than old lady.

[MeanMrsMustard]

i cant help but think of a dead guy sitting in paradise and getting a message from one of those awful machines

"you have a ressurection from a -BSSSST- LAWFUL GOOD - Cleric, if you want to accept the ressurection press one, if you wish to remain dead press 2"

I LOL'd. :smallbiggrin:
Anyway, I was kind of confused at first -- I didn't exactly understand the whole "it tells you the alignment of the cleric" thing (I was wondering why Roy didn't get a message) until I remembered that Roy would probably ignore the message, since he already knew Durkon's alignment.
But I enjoyed this comic. After the succession of more serious strips, it was nice to see a humorous strip that didn't feel... weird. My younger brother just finished the Archive Binge (http://www.tvtropes.org/main/ArchiveBinge), and neither of us can wait for #845.

[Incom]

I dunno about the whole "wouldn't take a rez from a LG cleric" when said LG cleric's patron (which they are also told based on the spell as written) is the "Chaotic Drunken" Thor. Granted, the Draketooths seem to think that All Paladins Are Miko, but that archetype surely wouldn't put up with Thor's antics... or do they think the rez info can be faked?

[KicktheCAN]

I have been thinking, shouldn't 5% of people affected by the Familicide spell still be alive? Having rolled an automatic success on their saving throw that is.

[ti'esar]

I have been thinking, shouldn't 5% of people affected by the Familicide spell still be alive? Having rolled an automatic success on their saving throw that is.

Familicide is "broken" enough that it wouldn't really surprise me if it doesn't give a saving throw.

And anyway, probability doesn't work like that.

[Gift Jeraff]

Familicide could also be like Finger of Death in that you still take damage even if you make your saving throw, so the few that were "lucky" may have still been killed.

[Themrys]

If the assumption that the Draketooths are evil aligned(due to them stealing children and money from their spouses) is correct, then maybe they cannot be resurrected because they're in hell?

I don't know how the afterlife in D&D works, exactly, but if evil aligned people go to some afterlife where they don't want to be, it would be pointless if they could leave anytime they want, would it?


The black dragon seemed to be happy in afterlife, though...is there no hell in D&D? On the other hand, V seems to fear s/he'll get there...

[Tobimaro]

Very nice comic, Giant. Not much more I can say about it. :smallamused:

[Chess Tyrant]

If the assumption that the Draketooths are evil aligned(due to them stealing children and money from their spouses) is correct, then maybe they cannot be resurrected because they're in hell?

I don't know how the afterlife in D&D works, exactly, but if evil aligned people go to some afterlife where they don't want to be, it would be pointless if they could leave anytime they want, would it?


The black dragon seemed to be happy in afterlife, though...is there no hell in D&D? On the other hand, V seems to fear s/he'll get there...


Nothing prevents you from rezzing an evil character in this world; it just happens less often. For instance, if Xykon had the right scrolls/allies, he could raise a deceased Redcloak.

Regarding the hells and V, I think that people who start out/are willingly evil (the true villains) aren't punished quite the same as those who want to be good/don't especially enjoy evil, but commit enough evil acts that they're damned anyway. Actually, I expect really evil mortals might have enough power and value to the devils/demons to be instated as commanders/soldiers in diabolic or demonic armies, or be given other positions that they'd enjoy holding - perhaps they're even reborn as fiends themselves. A not-really-evil person like Vaarsuvius might face eternal torture/slavery/having hir power siphoned by the truly evil crowd. Also, people who are really evil but not really powerful would become slaves or cannon fodder.

On the other hand, since even Xykon is willing to do anything to avoid damnation, my assumption is probably wrong... Although maybe that's just because even he would be relatively low on the food chain in the Abyss.


One thing we can see is that evil goblins who serve the Dark One get an afterlife that's perfectly enjoyable to them; I'd assume that the ABD was sent to Tiamat's realm, which would be perfectly fine to her. Perhaps a reasonable conclusion is that members of Usually (Chaotic) Evil races - those expected to be Evil, and with Evil patron deities - go to an afterlife managed by those Evil deities, which is perfectly fine for the Evil members of the race. Evil members of Usually Neutral/Good races that have Neutral/Good deities, on the other hand, are sent to the hells to be tortured.

[Kish]

All we know is that he believed Soon able to break an oath for the sake of world protection,

That he believed Soon would break his oath almost immediately.

That Soon's paladins were fascists.

That Soon was a coward who deserved to die.

We don't technically know that he believed Soon would commit torture, but GMantis has a much stronger case here than you do.

[Smolder]

Can a paladin even cast Resurrection? SRD seems to say no. What reason would anyone have for thinking that Soon or one of his Sapphire Guard were the ones resurrecting them? I suppose you can extrapolate that paladins wouldn't associate with unlawful beings, but then neither would a lot of people.

[Mantine]

That he believed Soon would break his oath almost immediately.

That Soon's paladins were fascists.

That Soon was a coward who deserved to die.

We don't technically know that he believed Soon would commit torture, but GMantis has a much stronger case here than you do.

Nope. Sorry, still not doing it.
Evaluating someone as a self-righteous bastard doesn't equal thinking that said bastard would do something that goes against what being a self-righteous bastard means in the first place.
Gmantis gave a bunch of "obvious" things which were nothing more than jumping to conclusions. Torturing is an evil act, THIS is a fact, and goes against what even a fascist paladin would do.

You can think of a judge as a "moral, rigid, self-enticed ******", you can expect him to go back on his word for "law's sake", but you still wouldn't imagine him going around burning criminals alive or things like that.

[eilandesq]

Can a paladin even cast Resurrection? SRD seems to say no. What reason would anyone have for thinking that Soon or one of his Sapphire Guard were the ones resurrecting them? I suppose you can extrapolate that paladins wouldn't associate with unlawful beings, but then neither would a lot of people.

Azure City had at least one cleric capable of casting Resurrection (which failed, since Shojo didn't consent to come back, but the spell was cast nonetheless). Since Girard was paranoid enough to expect Soon to quickly break his oath, he was unlikely to dilute that paranoia with a "but I'm sure he won't drag any high level clerics along with him, so if one shows up I should rethink things" nuance.

One thing we don't know: are there any paladins of Thor?

[wzeller]

But if you met me at a PTA meeting, I know just the things I'm suppose to say so that you think I'm a great guy who really understands your point of view and you are honored that I am the one teaching your precious little children...

I was right there with you until this last sentence. Lots of people play an evil campaign. That's not even remotely what the post you were responding to was talking about, but your point that playing an evil character doesn't make one evil is perfectly valid. (Otherwise, we'd have to lock up half the people that act in Shakespearean plays.)

However, that last sentence seriously (seriously, seriously) creeps me the hell out. It's the sentiment of a sociopath, and the idea that a teacher is the one who said it scares the crap out of me. Maybe I'm overly-sensitized by being a parent in the LAUSD which has been in the news lately with several teachers (and more almost daily, it seems) being revealed as sexual predators, but I wouldn't want somebody who ever says anything like that to be within a hundred feet of my kid. Please tell me you aren't in the LAUSD. (And please, seek help.)