Where do I start creating a character? Vampire the Masquerade

[Coidzor]

So, my friends are trying to branch out from the usual milieu of d20 that we've been playing and get into some Vampire. I'm all for this, but my only experiences with the rules set have come from brief anecdotes on this forum and from 2 Lets Plays I found on lparchive.org.

I know that it's going to be a Camarilla game and that the person running it has already discouraged/soft-banned Giovanni, saying that they're one of those groups where if one player is Giovanni the rest need to be because it'll just dominate the game.

I know a little bit about the various clans, and the concept of antitribu characters being a possibility, as well as clanless (caitiffs was it?) that can access most talents without discount or extra cost for being clan-associated or non-associated.

The GM will be coming over tomorrow to help me work out the character, and has sent me a bit of material to look over, and I believe that 3rd edition Vampire: the Masquerade main book as well as the Vampire: The Dark AgesDark Ages: Vampire book are on the table for sources, though I'm not quite sure how those two are compatible.

Right now I'm trying to come up with a general character concept so that I've at least got somewhere to come from when I meet with the GM tomorrow. The game is generally a fundamentally sneaky/social-manipulation game, right? Or is it more that one needs to be well-rounded because sneaking/getting away with things without being caught/traced back to you and avoiding being manipulated and manipulating others are as important as being able to apply murder to the faces of other things that go bump in the night?

So... what sort of things would help point me towards a general idea of clan or something along those lines? I imagine some of you have had to help guide newbies through it before or at least been here...

[STsinderman]

Well one of the first things that you will need to consider for concept will be the age of your character (both age of embrace and how long you have been embraced for). Then the profession that you were before embrace (define your skills) as this will have an impact as to which clan is likely to have taken you as a childer.

Antitribu may be an open concept but may make some of the RP difficult for you given that most are either Sabbat or unaligned. Its rather dependant on what role you wish to play in the party as to what you go going from there.

[Coidzor]

I understand that far, but it's more like... I have no idea what the actual party roles for vampire are. Reading over character creation hasn't really illuminated this to me either. x.x I feel like I've missed some important bit of information.

[Kesnit]

I understand that far, but it's more like... I have no idea what the actual party roles for vampire are. Reading over character creation hasn't really illuminated this to me either. x.x I feel like I've missed some important bit of information.

The roles are the same as any other RPG, though it is possible to build a PC that can fit more than 1 role.

Decide who your character is. (Taxi driver. Dance club owner. Charlatan fortune teller. etc) Once you figure that out, work with your ST to convert that into a character.

[Kazyan]

I have no idea what the actual party roles for vampire are.

Party roles? Eh?

V:tM doesn't really do party roles. You're not dungeoncrawling, and heck, in the game I run, there is no party--just the series of PCs doing their own things, because they avoided each other. That said, it is handy to have someone who can Subterfuge and someone who can Celerity. V:tM's mechanics still tilt towards combat, so, it happens more than in an off-the-wall indie RPG. But that goes out the window if the cotierie does not connect.

[Morty]

Yes, you shouldn't really think of your character in terms of "party roles" like you do in d20. You should figure out your character concept - as in, who your character is - then work from there, deciding what attributes, skills, merits, clan and disciplines are appropriate. It still pays off to have a good spread of capabilities in the coterie, but that's secondary.

[STsinderman]

Well not rolls in the DnD sense however i have found that in many V:tM games it comes down to many people taking the traditional vamp roles ex the tortured artist, the chronicler, the one who thinks that it can get him closer to god. Think to all the classic vampire films and see the roles that emerge.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Vampire doesn't "really" have party roles, but it does help to figure out where you're going to be focused, at least initially. The book heavily implies (or outright states, it's been a while since I looked at Masquerade) that you should start from what character you'd like to play and what skills and abilities they would have.

If, like me, you're used to doing mechanics before personality, and basing your character on what he or she is actually capable of doing, the Physical/Social/Mental trinary is a good place to start, as is Clan. Vampire is fundamentally a game about Vampire society, but just like Mortal society, there are plenty of different niches to feel and ways to go about your unlife. Some Vampires get along by being faster and tougher than their generational peers, others by being smarter or cleverer, and still others simply by used-car-salesmanning their way through conversations. Really, you can play whatever you like, and as long as you're reasonably well focused, you'll be decent at something. It also helps to check out of character whether the game will be heavier on combat, social situations, or investigation. If the answer is "none of the above", pick one.

Just a suggestion, though: don't focus on guns if you're a combat monkey. At some point, you will have to fight another vampire, and they will laugh at your bashing damage. Alternatively, keep a crossbow, some wooden bolts, and some really lucky d10's on hand for this eventuality. Or an AK-47 and a lot of bullets.

[Friv]

On party roles: I'm going to offer a slightly differing opinion. The degree to which your group will have party roles will depend on the degree to which they instinctively join ranks against the outside world.

You know your fellow players better than I do. Given the chance, will they fall into the backstabbing and paranoia that Vampire encourages, or are they more likely to play some of the only vampires in the city who actually like each other?

Now, there are some party roles / archetypes you can go for, but you always want to branch out, especially if your party is likely to do some of that backstabbing stuff.

Beatstick: Applying lots of violence to a situation isn't always the best choice in WoD, but the ability to apply that violence is really nice to have - when your enemies know you have the ability to become a whirlwind of death, they are less likely to try and push you to the point that you have to deploy. The trick to being a successful fighty-type is to have a way to threaten people with violence without the necessity of following through. Brujah and Grangrel are your go-to clans for this sort of build.

Scholar: If you know a lot about the world, people find you valuable. Pick up mental skills, and grab one of the clans that has Auspex (Toreador, Malkavian, and Tremere all make great scholars with very different flavours).

Socialite: Wheel and deal, and use your epic social powers to mess with the heads of everyone else. This is, perhaps unsurprisingly, a pretty common role. Toreador and Ventrue make the best socialites, but Brujah and Tremere are also pretty solid.

Spy: The classic Nosferatu build - information sources, thievery, and the ability to follow up on what other people are doing.

[Coidzor]

Ok, so, after a lot of really spicy jambalaya and a bit too much alcohol, I seem to have settled on a Gangrel bruiser with a side focus on stealth and investigation.

Went up to 4 dots in brawl and 3 in dodge as a neonate. Brawl covers using the claws of the beast power from Protean, right? And do I need the ambidextrous merit to use both claws properly? The Storyteller's sister helped me with the basics but we were unable to find anything on the subject in the books.

Ye gods are the books a headache to navigate. Did someone at white wolf have a table of contents and an index murder their mother or something? :smallconfused:

Edit:
Character so far:No idea what his name will be yet. Male Gangrel.

No idea of Sire, haven't been able to figure out with storyteller if I need to specify or if he'd prefer to do that.

Nature - Thrillseeker (Really likes fighting)
Demeanor - Survivor (not sure about this one, might switch to Judge due to the ex-cop background)

Concept - K-9 unit trainer and [politics redacted]
(The game seems to be taking place in Washington D.C. so his reason for going there was going to be [politics redacted] as part of some rally or another, managed to get involved in a bit of a tussle, accidentally a Sabbat fledgling and a broken wooden fence, and suitably impressed someone despite promptly being knocked out, haven't been able to get in touch with the storyteller for modification/approval though.)

Humanity 7 (6 + 1 freebie)
Willpower 4 (rather displeased by how low that is, I must admit.)

Vampire Years: 3-5
Apparent Age 28-30
DoB late 70s, early 80s
RIP 2009 (believe we're playing in 2012)

Animal Features: Yellow Eyes (covered by vanity contacts or glasses usually, right now I'm playing him as having had a low frenzy backstory so far, due to his relative youth and having had a mentor)

AttributesPhysical
Str 3 dots
Dex 3 dots
Stamina 4 dots

Social
Charisma 3 dos
Manipulation 3 dots
Appearance 2 dots

Mental
Perception 2 dots
Intelligence 2 dots
Wits 2 dots

Abilities

Talents
Alertness 1 dot
Athletics 1 dot
Brawl 3 dots + 1 freebie dot = 4 dots (this covers fighting with the claws, right?)
Dodge 3 dots
Intimidation 2 dots
Streetwise 2 dots
Subterfuge 1 dot

Skills
Animal Ken 3 dots + 1 freebie dot = 4 dots
Drive 1 dot
Firearms 1 dot (mostly for background fluff)
Repair 1 dot
Security 2 dots (security and stealth bumped up by one via freebie points)
Stealth 2 dots
Survival 1 dot

Knowledges
Computer 1 dot
Investigation 3 dots
Medicine 1 dot(thinking maybe putting this into law or finance due to the PI angle)

Advantages
Disciplines
Animalism 1 dot (probably my second dot into disciplines will go here)
Fortitude 1 dot
Protean 2 dots (for those sweet sweet claws, next dot I get I'll try to put in here because melding with the earth sounds nifty)
[any non-clan disciplines you'd recommend keeping an eye out for an opportunity to grab? I'm thinking a dot or two in potence would help with fighting]

Backgrounds (This was the toughest because... Gangrel stereotypes. Anything 2 dots had a freebie point put into it)
Generation 2 dots (couldn't really justify higher dots in other backgrounds to myself or other backgrounds. If anyone has any suggestions I can still re-allocate though)
Retainers 1 dot (I'm thinking this will be a human partner in the private investigation business, maybe ghouled, maybe not, able to handle computers, business, and interacting as necessary during the day while nighttime tailing and such should be trivial for a gangrel who can talk to animals I figured... I'm considering turning one of my dogs into a ghoul during the game if I find myself with enough blood to spare. Or would I have to turn all the dogs into ghouls so that they wouldn't drink the blood of their siblings?)
Resources 2 dots (I figure between being able to liquidate at least some of his assets as a mortal and the business this is justifiable. That, and given his past as a dog trainer, I wanted him able to support some dogs, and maybe a dog training business on the side)
Contacts 2 dots (not sure about this one, but it seemed fluffy and in line with the general idea of the PI angle)
Mentor 1 dot (really not sure about this one, but it seemed a good enough way to explain sticking around in DC, getting taken under the wing of a non-elder and run through the ropes and all. Anything to strengthen this or get it reallocated would be appreciated)

Virtues
Conscience 3 dots
Self Control 3 dots
Courage 4 dots

merits and flaws Merits:
Eat food physical 1 point merit
baby face physical 2 point merit (look more alive without needing to invest in blood, can breathe and even sneeze, felt right and in line with his physicality) [any additional suggestions would be appreciated, though if they came with a suggestion of what freebie points to reallocate toward them, even better]

Flaws (again, alternatives that fit would be appreciated, and I need some clarifications/points for arguing them with the storyteller if it's that debatable)
Deep sleeper 1 point mental flaw
Prey Exclusion [children or minors] 1 point mental flaw (*really* doesn't want to go for kids due to his stigmas against CP and the experience of the kiss)
No Reflection 1 point supernatural flaw (this one is the most random and points for points sake of the lot.)
Overconfidence 1 point psychological flaw
Intolerance [redacted] 1 point psychological flaw (couldn't quite tell if racism was appropriate to this flaw or not)
Allergic (illegal drugs) 2 point physical flaw

[MickJay]

From a purely mechanical perspective, I'd say you're spreading a little too thin. You've got a very well rounded character with an edge in physical combat and handling animals, but without a mastery in anything. Personally, I'd move the dots from Man and Cha to Wits and Per - unless you really want to focus on animals, and increase alertness by a dot or two, and move a dot from Sta to Dex or Str (tanking doesn't really work anyway). I would increase Willpower with freebie dots, and possibly also boost that brawl to 5 (if he likes it that much, it'd be justifiable). On the whole, though, the concept looks solid.

Potence is a solid investment for any brawler/melee character. Celerity is an even better one, but it is also highly problematic (assuming 4-player coterie and 3 characters with 2-3 celerity each, the last player will get one action for 10 of his friends; can get dull for that player).

As for ambidextrous, I think it only applies to weapons; if you want to use claws, you just do 'claw attack', and that's that, you can narrate it how you want, but you're hitting once. You can still try to hit twice in the same action with lower dice pools.

I'll try to add something tomorrow, got to dash :)

[Nerd-o-rama]

And yes, Claws of the Beast use Brawl.

[Coidzor]

From a purely mechanical perspective, I'd say you're spreading a little too thin. You've got a very well rounded character with an edge in physical combat and handling animals, but without a mastery in anything. Personally, I'd move the dots from Man and Cha to Wits and Per - unless you really want to focus on animals, and increase alertness by a dot or two, and move a dot from Sta to Dex or Str (tanking doesn't really work anyway). I would increase Willpower with freebie dots, and possibly also boost that brawl to 5 (if he likes it that much, it'd be justifiable). On the whole, though, the concept looks solid.

I was worried it'd be completely ridiculous, haha. x.x So I went with 4 in strength and 3 in stamina and dexterity. I'm starting to think I might've instead gone with 4 in str/dex and 2 in sta, or is 2 stamina too low for brawling even with some fortitude and the non-viability of tanking?

I nixed firearms, repair, and survival and instead put those points into security and stealth, and I bumped up brawl though I can't recall now if it went to 4 or 5. Dodge is still at either 3 or 4, though. Made the social attributes my tertiary as well as was suggested. Physical > Mental > Social now.

Had our first session a bit ago. Almost got blown up by a celerity user with a morbid sense of humor. Pulled the whole decapitated head with a note stuck in its mouth and gratuitously cheesy clock attached to dynamite shtick with me. Ended up getting blasted into a Burger King instead

Got 5 experience though, and managed to get an extension on figuring out my starting equipment because no one had really figured out their starting equipment beyond figuring out if they had a vehicle and the clothes they wore upon being summoned by the Prince.

Now to figure that out and learn how to spend XP in this system, haha.


Potence is a solid investment for any brawler/melee character. Celerity is an even better one, but it is also highly problematic (assuming 4-player coterie and 3 characters with 2-3 celerity each, the last player will get one action for 10 of his friends; can get dull for that player).

Heh. Yeah. I just discovered how much I wished that I had celerity when the guy who went after us was able to move so fast he vanished on us before I had even ripped open the truck he was in.


As for ambidextrous, I think it only applies to weapons; if you want to use claws, you just do 'claw attack', and that's that, you can narrate it how you want, but you're hitting once. You can still try to hit twice in the same action with lower dice pools.

Ahh. Thanks. Any point in time/size of dice pool where it'd be worth it to try to do 5 aggravated damage twice rather than once?

[comicshorse]

Ahh. Thanks. Any point in time/size of dice pool where it'd be worth it to try to do 5 aggravated damage twice rather than once?

If I remember rightly mortals don't get to soak at all, so if dealing with multiple human opponents it might be worth it

As for the Brawl remember having Brawl 5 means you are one of the finest hand-to-hand fighters in the country so a cop starting with that would indeed be a bit much

Regarding the Mentor background for a new player its usually have a good idea to have a more experienced kindred as a friend/Mentor to help him learn the ropes of the new socierty he's been thrust into.

[MickJay]

I reckon dice pool of 7-8 is sufficiently big to go for multiple attacks; you have 6 dice on first and 5 on second, which should easily be enough to hit a target that's not dodging. It all depends on enemies, of course. Against high armor/soak targets, you'll want to focus on one solid hit at a time, against weak mooks you can go crazy and even try three attacks.

Mortals only get bashing soak; I can't remember if armor protected from Agg damage as well as Lethal, though.

As for stamina 2: you could try that, but with a brawler, I'd raise it back to 3 soon (only 8 xp). Old WoD 'encourages' min-maxing at character creation and raising early 'neglected' stats with xp. Of course, many STs will oppose introducing such unbalanced characters, you have to deal with the weaknesses early on, and it's cheesy in general. :smalltongue:

Survival might be useful to keep, or buy it again at a later date; fits with character well, and Gangrels are the go-to clan when Survival is concerned.

As for equipment, some light armor could come in handy (light or heavy leather would fit just fine), a suit of protective gear for animal handling (obviously not for everyday use), some lockpicks or similar tools (since you have Security)... not much else I can think of.

Remember that Brawl is used for making 'feeding' attacks. Against lone opponents it can be quite potent.

[comicshorse]

I reckon dice pool of 7-8 is sufficiently big to go for multiple attacks; you have 6 dice on first and 5 on second, which should easily be enough to hit a target that's not dodging. It all depends on enemies, of course. Against high armor/soak targets, you'll want to focus on one solid hit at a time, against weak mooks you can go crazy and even try three attacks.



I'm not near my books but I'm pretty sure if you split the attack you split the dice pool between them. So if you normally have 8 dice, each attack would now have 4

[battleburn]

Without having the rules here, I believe it was like this:

In the basic VtM corebook the rules are that if you on a normal attack have n dice and you want to split the attack x times...

Your first attack roll is n-x dice, the second attack is n-x-1. The third is n-x-2. etc. If you want to attack with both claws and you do not have the ambidextrous merit it gets even harder. An attack with your off-hand is also at -1 die.

To make it simpler, I believe in one of the books it is mentioned that you can also choose to go for splitting the dice instead of calculating it like this, but this would be less balanced.

You want to be sure you hit and hit first, so that the opponent has less chance/dice to hit you back because of the damage.

With multiple opponents, or when the opponent has a higher initiative (dex+wits+1die) you might want to split your attacks so you can block and then attack. Remember though. Your first attack is at the moment of your initiative. All other remaining attacks will be totally at the end of the round.

Blocks, dodges etc. that react to actions of others go at that precise moment.

If you first block, or attack, but you still get hit. You have a chance that your remaining attacks all of a sudden have no dice left. In that case you cannot do them anymore.

-Battleburn

Edit: Splats have rules for soaking agg damage. Normal humans don't receive agg damage. For them all agg damage is ordinary lethal damage. And lethal damage can kill you. Humans, animals and other non-supernaturals can soak bashing damage and with swords and weapons can parry claws and weapons that could cause lethal damage. But they cannot soak a sword or a bullet. For a werewolf bullets cause lethal damage, but they can easily heal it. For vamps bullets cause bashing. For humans its lethal and cannot be soaked. Armor lets them soak weapons and also claws. Because it is hard to penatrate armour. So a vest will protect a human somewhat against a vamps/werewolfs claws. But not against the enormous strength+potence that will crush his insides within the armour.

[MickJay]

I'm not near my books but I'm pretty sure if you split the attack you split the dice pool between them. So if you normally have 8 dice, each attack would now have 4

It's as battleburn explained, splitting actions isn't as simple as just dividing the dice. You can do different actions in one turn (try to both brawl and get ready to dodge, for example), but then you're limited by the lower dice pool; with brawl of 8 and dodge of 7, you start with 7 dice, then divide them (7-2=5 for brawl, 7-2-1=4 for dodge).

[Need_A_Life]

Seems like a nice character.
Some things:

Amongst the physical stats, Dexterity is God. Feel free to lower Stamina and pick up a kevlar vest to wear, when you're expecting trouble. Better dodging, attacking (hence, more damage) AND stealth? Sign me up!
No Reflection is really useful. It's the Lasombra clan flaw, which can cause some problems, but it renders you straight-out immune to lots of technological surveillence, allowing you to bypass alarms.
Rating the physical disciplines (for dots 1-5): Celerity, (Protean), Potence, Fortitude.
Celerity lets you act more often, giving you more damage and dodge opportunities. Also lets you retreat.
Protean gives you claws. The best damage-dealing power in V:tM (barring certain Thaumaturgy powers). There's a "Claws of Fenrir" upgrade power you can buy for [12, I think?]xp in one of the books.
Potence lets you deal more damage. Some utility.
Fortitude lets you stay in the game. Doesn't hurt your opponent, though and boosting damage is easier than boosting soak, so you're still fighting a losing battle.
Rating the physical disciplines (for dots >5): Celerity, Fortitude, Potence, (Protean).
"Epic" Celerity will let you add your rating to hit or all dodges and other nifty things. At dot 9, there's a "add [rating] to anything ever. 1BP/round."
"Epic" Fortitude will let you destroy enemy weapons by being attacked. Best disarm ever.
"Epic" Potence deals more damage, some fun utility.
"Epic" Protean gives you some powerful abilities, but turning into a dragon isn't exactly Masquerade-friendly.

[Chen]

If you're looking for a fight or preparing for one you'll probably raise your dex to 6 for the scene anyways so that would give you an 11 dice pool for brawl (presumably with a specialty in claws). Unopposed this can probably give you 3 attacks pretty easily at 8, 7 and 6 dice. 4 attacks at 7, 6, 5, 4 is also not unreasonable if the opponent is not dodging a lot. You only need one success to hit and then you get to bring your str + claws into the damage. And since its Aggravated most people won't be able to soak it very well.

Also remember actions are declared in reverse initiative order. If you beat someone's initiative you get to know what they'll do. If they declare first and they declare 2 attacks against you, you only need 2 dodges. So in such a case declaring Dodge, dodge, attack can be worth it since they didn't declare any dodges. You'll get an attack at your highest pool and then 2 dodges to dodge their attacks with. The converse is true too though. If they beat your initiative it can be worthwhile to be defensive that round. Also remember you can roll wits to change actions or willpower to change to defensive actions if need be.

Also for a Camarilla game I would NOT take the "no reflection" flaw. Being mistaken as a Lasombra is NOT a good thing. Someone can hold something like that over your head or use it to their advantage quite easily. Or just get you interrogated/tortured/killed. Its quite risky and not worth the 1 point or whatever it is you get from it.

[MickJay]

Attributes at 6+ are only available for low generation vampires, and diablierising one's way to low generation isn't generally a good idea in a Camarilla game.

The 'no reflection' flaw doesn't have to be too bad, as long as the vampires are staying in an area where they're already known.

[Jarveiyan]

With blood expenditure you can raise your physical stats to your generation limit+1 max but only for a short amount of time(matter of turns) I do believe.

[Coidzor]

Amongst the physical stats, Dexterity is God. Feel free to lower Stamina and pick up a kevlar vest to wear, when you're expecting trouble. Better dodging, attacking (hence, more damage) AND stealth? Sign me up!


Whoops. Planning on getting the kevlar vest. Having to wait on book access to figure out what I can afford with my 2 dots in resources though. x.x The condensed information I got doesn't include pricing and such.



No Reflection is really useful. It's the Lasombra clan flaw, which can cause some problems, but it renders you straight-out immune to lots of technological surveillence, allowing you to bypass alarms.


Oh, I didn't think that would be a hidden boon as well as a disadvantage. That's nifty. At present the Prince knows who my sire and clan are, and I'm in his direct employ, so while this doesn't seem to be an immediate concern, I'll keep that in mind.

Any tips for minimizing the risk of it being discovered, aside from avoiding clubs that like to feature bright lights and prominent mirrors?

Any notes on what tech it will work against and what won't and what kinds of items I could carry on my person that would counteract the tech-invisibility?



Rating the physical disciplines (for dots 1-5): Celerity, (Protean), Potence, Fortitude.
Celerity lets you act more often, giving you more damage and dodge opportunities. Also lets you retreat.
Protean gives you claws. The best damage-dealing power in V:tM (barring certain Thaumaturgy powers). There's a "Claws of Fenrir" upgrade power you can buy for [12, I think?]xp in one of the books.
Potence lets you deal more damage. Some utility.
Fortitude lets you stay in the game. Doesn't hurt your opponent, though and boosting damage is easier than boosting soak, so you're still fighting a losing battle.


Probably not going to go for all that long, but I'll keep the 6+ dot stuff in mind for later...

From what I'm seeing here it looks like my priority for disciplines should be finding a tutor who will teach me celerity and finding a comfortable balance between using it and leaving the other players twiddling their thumbs for too long and then grabbing Protean 3 and maybe Animalism 2 to fill out my fluffy/survival power.


So I've still got to allocate my contacts, and I figure that one of them should be in law enforcement on some level, given that this is D.C. we're talking about here and so there's plenty of agencies around... But I'm not quite sure what to do with the 2nd dot in contacts. I can't remember what exactly I was thinking at the time, as, due to distractions and my roommates deciding to surprise vodka us, the character was built over...several hours... x,x So any suggestions there would be greatly appreciated.

[battleburn]

I respectfully disagree that dex = god.
Of course it helps with defending, dodging hitting and countless other non-fighting actions, but when you are attacking, you have two chances to lose a die. When you are trying to hit and then when you are rolling for damage. In an attackroll when you put that dot in strength, you don't roll and not lose that die when tryin to hit. When you hit you only have to roll for damage once. The chance of hitting becomes a bit smaller, but the amount of damage you do when you hit increases.

-Battleburn

[comicshorse]

The Lasombra clan flaw is a matter of debate with numerous Keepers changing the rules and I'm pretty sure even the rules changing from book to book.
Basically ( as I remember) originally you didn't show up on camera's then it was realized what a huge advantage this was for something that was meant to be a Flaw and it was changed so you just appeared as a grey shadow on the camera. Obviously this means you can't be identified on film but also means that you are a walking breach of the Masquerade as you are clearly having a very strange effect on film. Naturally this is mostly going to go unnoticed but if anybody is specifically checking the effect is going to be pretty obvious.
This is the only way the flaw affects security everything else, door alarms, pressure plates, motion sensors, infra red beams work as normal.
There isn't really anything you can carry around to neutralize the effect, it is a supernatural effect just remember to remove video tapes if you break into a place. Or if you favour a particular nightclub Dominate the head of security so any film of you is ignored as 'camera error'.


[QUOTE] So I've still got to allocate my contacts, and I figure that one of them should be in law enforcement on some level, given that this is D.C. we're talking about here and so there's plenty of agencies around... But I'm not quite sure what to do with the 2nd dot in contacts. I can't remember what exactly I was thinking at the time, as, due to distractions and my roommates deciding to surprise vodka us, the character was built over...several hours... x,x So any suggestions there would be greatly appreciated.

Well you're an ex-cop so a crook you've recruited as a C.I. seems likely and gives you an insight into the other side of things from your cop contact.
But there isn't anything that can't be useful to a Vampire. Slaughterhouse worker-gets you animal blood. Journalist-warns you of possible Masquerade breaches in the news. Morgue attendent- free blood and a chance to disguise feeding errors before the cops get to them

[Need_A_Life]

Discussion of Cast No Reflection/Lasombra clan flaw. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=55496)
I'm personally of the opinion that Lasombras curse isn't that they don't show up in mirrors; it's that the world rejects their image. No film, no cameras, no mirrors, no reflection. Heck, I have half a mind to have any oil paintings of a Lasombra slowly change until they're unrecognizable as them.
The world doesn't want them. That's the curse, as I see it.
And for the school who says that Clan Flaws should never provide an advantage? I disagree.

Nosferatu can unnerve people without a roll by their mere presence. Malkavian derangements can render them unpredictable by their enemies. Old Gangrels get an inhuman animalistic appearance, marking them as someone who has survived dozens of frenzies. Tremere may all be blood bound, but they stand up for each other against outsiders. All are hindrances, but also boons.

Personally, in regards to Contacts, I prefer to have my actual dots represent people of some influence; police officers, emergency response, bureaucrats (etc.) and use the all-too-underutilized "minor contact" aspect of it to declare that you know the guy at the hotdog stand outside City Hall and that he'll gladly tell you what he knows :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Personally, in regards to Contacts, I prefer to have my actual dots represent people of some influence; police officers, emergency response, bureaucrats (etc.) and use the all-too-underutilized "minor contact" aspect of it to declare that you know the guy at the hotdog stand outside City Hall and that he'll gladly tell you what he knows :smalltongue:

Yeah, I'm thinking someone either in the police upper-ups or the FBI for the one contact. It's the second contact that's bugging me. Don't really want redundant effort, after all.

[Need_A_Life]

Maybe a bureaucrat at City Hall? All sorts of restricted records that the average government bureaucrat has easy access to that the public aren't supposed to see... :smallsmile:

[Chen]

With blood expenditure you can raise your physical stats to your generation limit+1 max but only for a short amount of time(matter of turns) I do believe.

Blood expenditure lets you raise your stats to generation limit + 1 for the scene. You can spend more blood to further increase your stats (all the way to 10) but past generation limit +1 the extra dots only last 3 rounds after you stop spending blood.

I'm curious as to how you explained the "Don't cast reflections" flaw. Many kindred know this is the clan flaw of the Lasombra. How did you convince them you're not Lasombra? Did you have the Tremere test your blood publically? Did someone of high status say that you are their childer or that you're of their clan? I don't know how strict your storyteller is so it may be moot, but flaws are supposed to be hindrances. It also depends on how deep a game your storyteller has. Imagine vampires who have been around hundreds of years. A new vampire shows up and doesn't cast a reflection. Even if someone does vouch for you, is everyone going to believe that? It doesn't seem like its worth the 1 extra freebie frankly.


I respectfully disagree that dex = god.
Of course it helps with defending, dodging hitting and countless other non-fighting actions, but when you are attacking, you have two chances to lose a die. When you are trying to hit and then when you are rolling for damage. In an attackroll when you put that dot in strength, you don't roll and not lose that die when tryin to hit. When you hit you only have to roll for damage once. The chance of hitting becomes a bit smaller, but the amount of damage you do when you hit increases.

It tends to depend on how much dodging the opponent is doing. A smart opponent will be dodging so having more successes on your attack roll is key. Every die of extra Str does give a direct 1-1 increase in dice of damage. On average every extra die of Dex will only give half a die of increased damage. However, if the opponent is dodging each extra die of dex lets you increase the chance you'll hit AT ALL which is necessary before you get to bring your base str + weapon + potence (if available) into play against damage. Not to mention dex helps with initiative AND defensive actions. Its generally far more worthwhile than Str. That said, Str of 4 so you can take the damage dealing specialty is good, though I suppose that depends on your storyteller.

[MickJay]

Considering how a Camarilla vampire must obtain a permission to sire, I'm pretty sure the word of the sire confirming whom he embraced would be sufficient for most princes.

Blood expenditure for stat boosts can be potent, but only if you can be sure you'll have time to replenish lost blood, and if you had time to spend it before the fight, or are not using disciplines costing blood in combat (blood expenditure limits!).

[Nerd-o-rama]

Blood expenditure for stat boosts can be potent, but only if you can be sure you'll have time to replenish lost blood, and if you had time to spend it before the fight, or are not using disciplines costing blood in combat (blood expenditure limits!).

Blood Buff (I've been playing VTM: Bloodlines) seems to be there for people who want to fight in melee but don't have Potence/Celerity/Fortitude bought up to where they want them to be; it doesn't cost any XP, after all.

[MickJay]

That's often the case, though the character still won't be as good as a dedicated fighter in most cases. Blood buff can also be quite useful for performing certain tasks as well (physical and precision skills). That said, replenishing blood in tabletop vampire might not be as easy as it is in Bloodlines (depending on the ST and general style of the game).

[Nerd-o-rama]

That's often the case, though the character still won't be as good as a dedicated fighter in most cases. Blood buff can also be quite useful for performing certain tasks as well (physical and precision skills). That said, replenishing blood in tabletop vampire might not be as easy as it is in Bloodlines (depending on the ST and general style of the game).

Oh yeah, blood is almost as easy to get in Bloodlines as money. And yeah, I used it for lockpicking a lot. And Auspex for hacking...

[Coidzor]

Wait. Blood can be put into non-attributes?

[MickJay]

Nope, it can only go into physical attributes. But 'skill checks' work by combining attribute with skill values.

[Chen]

Considering how a Camarilla vampire must obtain a permission to sire, I'm pretty sure the word of the sire confirming whom he embraced would be sufficient for most princes.

For the prince to give permission to stay? Sure. Though I could see him extracting a boon from the sire for it (unless of course the sire has high status). Thing is, other kindred in the city might not be so kind. Got into a fight with another kindred over something? Oh he was friends with the master harpy and now there's the rumour going around that you're not really a gangrel but a lasombra mole? I don't know how political your game is planning on being, but if in most games I play, if I see a vampire with no reflection who's not claiming to be a lasombra, I see an opportunity for gain at his expense.



Blood expenditure for stat boosts can be potent, but only if you can be sure you'll have time to replenish lost blood, and if you had time to spend it before the fight, or are not using disciplines costing blood in combat (blood expenditure limits!).

Replenishing blood is generally not that hard. There are rules for how to seduce someone in a club (there's 3 rolls I think) or how to hunt someone down and just jump them on the street. With Animalism 2 you can just go to the woods and summon a bunch of them to you if you need blood as well. Pumping in combat is also far more potent if you're 9th or lower gen which doesn't really apply here I guess.

[Coidzor]

in most games I play, if I see a vampire with no reflection who's not claiming to be a lasombra, I see an opportunity for gain at his expense.

Yes, yes, it's a good thing I'm not LARPing. I think that's a given, what with the violent people and ultimate self-immolation of every Vampire LARP I've had contact with.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, yes, it's a good thing I'm not LARPing. I think that's a given, what with the violent people and ultimate self-immolation of every Vampire LARP I've had contact with.

Eh, his comment is hardly LARP-specific. If your ST is any good, he'll have fleshed-out NPCs to interact with and probably undermine (or attempt to undermine you). In either case, lacking a reflection could be a definite social issue if it's exploited.

And that doesn't even touch the other PCs at the table. They could, at any point, have reasons to want your reputation to take a nose-dive, and No Reflection would be handing them at on a silver platter.

[Chen]

Eh, his comment is hardly LARP-specific. If your ST is any good, he'll have fleshed-out NPCs to interact with and probably undermine (or attempt to undermine you). In either case, lacking a reflection could be a definite social issue if it's exploited.

And that doesn't even touch the other PCs at the table. They could, at any point, have reasons to want your reputation to take a nose-dive, and No Reflection would be handing them at on a silver platter.

Exactly. From a storyteller point of view, flaws are penalties. That's why you get freebies for them. A good storyteller will be able to make sure you feel those penalties, as is appropriate. Not casting a reflection in a Cam game is a potentially big penalty because its very difficult to actually provide evidence of your clan. If someone high up decides you've pissed them off and starts a rumor that you're a Lasombra, things can go badly quickly. Hell your own clan might start to get suspicious. No one wants a sabbat traitor in their midsts. In things where there is no actual evidence status generally rules the day. So if your enemy has the master harpy on his side, you need a fair bit of status to say (or get someone to say) that no you really are a gangrel. Just because someone comes forward and says "this is my childe" it doesn't mean its true. It would then come down to the status of the person making the claim vs the one who claimed you were lasombra.

Even forgetting the political implications, with no reflection you're a walking Masquerade breach except without the dominate to fix it (like actual Lasombra have). Next time you're out in the evening, take a look at how many reflective surfaces there are around. Imagine driving when someone looks in their rear-view mirror and doesn't see anyone in the drivers seat of your car. Or the taxi driver looks into the mirror and doesn't see you. For 1 freebie point it is NOT worth it. Some of the other traditional vampire flaws (like repulsed by garlic or crosses) tend to be worth the 1 point they give because they don't come up often. No reflection is something you'll have to be aware of every night.

[Coidzor]

Eh, his comment is hardly LARP-specific. If your ST is any good, he'll have fleshed-out NPCs to interact with and probably undermine (or attempt to undermine you). In either case, lacking a reflection could be a definite social issue if it's exploited.

And that doesn't even touch the other PCs at the table. They could, at any point, have reasons to want your reputation to take a nose-dive, and No Reflection would be handing them at on a silver platter.

Yes, though if my friends weren't up front about that from the get-go about the nature of the game we were playing, they're not going to be in for a good time, I can assure you, sir.

As they have declared that it is not going to be backstab central, I have a certain amount of leeway, I imagine, and NPCs are supposed to be duplicitous ********.

I hardly see it as just cause to put me down and tell me that I'm going to get instantly ganked and will never have fun. :smallannoyed:

[Andezzar]

No Reflection is really useful. It's the Lasombra clan flaw, which can cause some problems, but it renders you straight-out immune to lots of technological surveillence, allowing you to bypass alarms.This actually is not true. Very few imaging devices rely on reflection to take pictures. A couple do rely on it to point the device in the right direction, but the actual creation of an image relies on energy transfer between the light and the reactive material on the film or the light sensor. So if you for example pointed a single lens reflex camera at a vampire you would not see him through the eyepiece but if you blindly clicked the vampire would be in the photo. This animation (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Pentax_super_me_open_back.gif/220px-Pentax_super_me_open_back.gif) should illustrate what I mean. Video cameras should work completely normal as long as the view for aiming the camera is not generated by mirrors (not sure if that even exists).

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, though if my friends weren't up front about that from the get-go about the nature of the game we were playing, they're not going to be in for a good time, I can assure you, sir.

As they have declared that it is not going to be backstab central, I have a certain amount of leeway, I imagine, and NPCs are supposed to be duplicitous ********.

I hardly see it as just cause to put me down and tell me that I'm going to get instantly ganked and will never have fun. :smallannoyed:

I have no idea where you got the idea that anyone said any of that. What's been said is that taking No Reflection in a Camarilla-centered game is like painting a giant social (and possibly literal) bullseye on your forehead that pretty much anyone can aim at if they want to. Compared to most of the other 1-point flaws, its risk/reward ration is far too high.

[Need_A_Life]

This actually is not true. Very few imaging devices rely on reflection to take pictures. A couple do rely on it to point the device in the right direction, but the actual creation of an image relies on energy transfer between the light and the reactive material on the film or the light sensor.Yeah, thing is that if you go solely by the V20 way of handling things, the flaw will never come up. If you go by the Lasombra clanbook whining, the idea that their image is simply not retained holds more water.
Also, the difference between looking into a mirror or a webcam when getting ready wouldn't be worth points at my table.

There's been hundreds of discussion on the topic and over 20 years people haven't completely agreed yet, but I think the "great risk, great reward" is a lot more interesting than a "minor risk of someone finding out you're an anomaly."

[Andezzar]

Also, the difference between looking into a mirror or a webcam when getting ready wouldn't be worth points at my table.For the last 10-15 years maybe, but few Lasombra are that young. I'm not sure if the Lasombra even go for the shovelhead routine. IIRC they're more for grooming their embracees than picking at random and throwing them to the wolves (of the camarilla)


There's been hundreds of discussion on the topic and over 20 years people haven't completely agreed yet, but I think the "great risk, great reward" is a lot more interesting than a "minor risk of someone finding out you're an anomaly."IIRC It is a 1 point flaw and only part of the Lasombra clan weakness (the other is more damage from sunlight), at least in DA:V. To me that sounds about right for "minor risk of someone finding out you're an anomaly".

[Chen]

There's been hundreds of discussion on the topic and over 20 years people haven't completely agreed yet, but I think the "great risk, great reward" is a lot more interesting than a "minor risk of someone finding out you're an anomaly."

I don't have my V20 book here, but I thought the flaw even at its most basic was any reflective surface would not show the Lasombra. I don't see how this is a minor risk. It can be a blatant breach of the Masquerade. Especially considering how "Not casting a reflection in the mirror" is one of the things the normal person will attribute to vampires, even though its generally not true. Something like that hitting the tabloids or television or whatever, is exactly what brings hunters to cities and is exactly why the Masquerade is there to begin with.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, in the New Vampire game I'm playing (wherein no one casts reflections naturally, but can overcome this with Vitae expenditure) we got bitchslapped hard by the Prince for forgetting to turn on our reflection swag in a hotel full of security cameras. Fortunately, that was the first session and the Prince is very reasonable for a Ventrue (and the guy running the hotel didn't want a Masquerade breach [yet] either), so we got off with a warning and a verbal dressing-down about Masquerade violations.

[Coidzor]

I have no idea where you got the idea that anyone said any of that. What's been said is that taking No Reflection in a Camarilla-centered game is like painting a giant social (and possibly literal) bullseye on your forehead that pretty much anyone can aim at if they want to. Compared to most of the other 1-point flaws, its risk/reward ration is far too high.

Then it shouldn't be a bloody 1 point flaw. It should either be treated as a 1 point flaw or I should be allowed to bloody-well rechoose if that's how the storyteller is going to play it.

I shouldn't be told I will be incapable of having fun for having chosen it. It's rather hostile.

Hell, you've told me my character is dead but haven't given any advice about what to do for my next one at all.

[Andezzar]

Yeah, in the New Vampire game I'm playing (wherein no one casts reflections naturally, but can overcome this with Vitae expenditure) we got bitchslapped hard by the Prince for forgetting to turn on our reflection swag in a hotel full of security cameras.You may want to remind your GM that cameras do not rely on reflection. If they reflected all light, they would never take any pitctures. What causes the images to appear is absorption. If The GM wants Lasombra and other vampires with the appropriate flaw not to show up on cameras he should inform the players about that houserule and let people change their characters if desired.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You may want to remind your GM that cameras do not rely on reflection. If they reflected all light, they would never take any pitctures. What causes the images to appear is absorption. If The GM wants Lasombra and other vampires with the appropriate flaw not to show up on cameras he should inform the players about that houserule and let people change their characters if desired.

I think New World of Darkness is different and specifically says they can't be recorded without Vitae expenditure (this is all Vampires, not anyone's clan flaw). I think it's a Ba thing. I'm AFB at the moment, though.

[comicshorse]

Then it shouldn't be a bloody 1 point flaw. It should either be treated as a 1 point flaw or I should be allowed to bloody-well rechoose if that's how the storyteller is going to play it.

I shouldn't be told I will be incapable of having fun for having chosen it. It's rather hostile.



Maybe it shouldn't ( in fact it almost certainly shouldn't) but there has never been a game that was perfect and all people have really been trying to do is point out that it is going to be worse than you'd normally expect for so little gain.

Again I don't really think anybody said you'd be incapable of having fun if you played it just that it would be a challenge.

For the record I played a Lasombra Antitribu in a Camarilla game set in L.A ( that half way through became an Anarch game) and survived. From what I gathered from playing the character I'd suggest a few hints.
Check out places beforehand that may have lots of mirrors if you may go there(nightclubs, theatres, etc) so you know which ones to avoid.
Use transport with blacked out windows to avoid camera's where possible.
Maintain a few loyal and competent ghouls who can speak for you (literally if you give them earphone recievers) in places you don't want to be seen.
If anything masquerade breaching happens when you are around-get to the camera's and get the film destroyed. Doesn't matter if its not your fault, do it.
If you have the money and know a good plastic surgeon ( or a Tszimisce) invest in a body double ghoul who can be seen with a reflection for throwing people of the scent.
Inform the Prince of the flaw, so he knows what is going on when Kindred start reporting you as a Sabbat spy



I think New World of Darkness is different and specifically says they can't be recorded without Vitae expenditure (this is all Vampires, not anyone's clan flaw). I think it's a Ba thing. I'm AFB at the moment, though.
I thought it was Willpower you had to spend In New, also AFB

[The Glyphstone]

Then it shouldn't be a bloody 1 point flaw. It should either be treated as a 1 point flaw or I should be allowed to bloody-well rechoose if that's how the storyteller is going to play it.

I shouldn't be told I will be incapable of having fun for having chosen it. It's rather hostile.

Hell, you've told me my character is dead but haven't given any advice about what to do for my next one at all.

...is there some bizzaro world version of this thread where I, or anyone else, have actually said these things?:smallconfused: Before you start exploding on us for fairly and quite calmly having warned you what you might be in for (along with tons of excellent advice for minimizing your risk), you should probably be talking to your ST to know how much of a penalty No Reflection will be.

[Chen]

Then it shouldn't be a bloody 1 point flaw. It should either be treated as a 1 point flaw or I should be allowed to bloody-well rechoose if that's how the storyteller is going to play it.

There are lots of flaws in VtM that are incorrectly costed. The flaw where you have to eat the vital organs of your victim is 4 (or 3) points BUT you have to buy the eat food merit to go along with it, which really makes is less. And its a TERRIBLE flaw. No reflection at 1 point is in the same boat (well in a Cam game). White Wolf is not terribly good with balance so there are lots of little things like this in the game. The fact the generation is by FAR the best 5 points to spend backgrounds/freebies on at the start is another issue. The power difference between an 8th gen and a 10th gen is HUGE mainly for the amount of blood you can spend each round. Even 9th is a BIG jump in power compared to 10th.

[Chen]

Then it shouldn't be a bloody 1 point flaw. It should either be treated as a 1 point flaw or I should be allowed to bloody-well rechoose if that's how the storyteller is going to play it.

There are lots of flaws in VtM that are incorrectly costed. The flaw where you have to eat the vital organs of your victim is 4 (or 3) points BUT you have to buy the eat food merit to go along with it, which really makes is less. And its a TERRIBLE flaw. No reflection at 1 point is in the same boat (well in a Cam game). White Wolf is not terribly good with balance so there are lots of little things like this in the game. The fact the generation is by FAR the best 5 points to spend backgrounds/freebies on at the start is another issue. The power difference between an 8th gen and a 10th gen is HUGE mainly for the amount of blood you can spend each round. Even 9th is a BIG jump in power compared to 10th.

[Chen]

Then it shouldn't be a bloody 1 point flaw. It should either be treated as a 1 point flaw or I should be allowed to bloody-well rechoose if that's how the storyteller is going to play it.

There are lots of flaws in VtM that are incorrectly costed. The flaw where you have to eat the vital organs of your victim is 4 (or 3) points BUT you have to buy the eat food merit to go along with it, which really makes is less. And its a TERRIBLE flaw. No reflection at 1 point is in the same boat (well in a Cam game). White Wolf is not terribly good with balance so there are lots of little things like this in the game. The fact the generation is by FAR the best 5 points to spend backgrounds/freebies on at the start is another issue. The power difference between an 8th gen and a 10th gen is HUGE mainly for the amount of blood you can spend each round. Even 9th is a BIG jump in power compared to 10th.

[The Glyphstone]

There are lots of flaws in VtM that are incorrectly costed. The flaw where you have to eat the vital organs of your victim is 4 (or 3) points BUT you have to buy the eat food merit to go along with it, which really makes is less. And its a TERRIBLE flaw. No reflection at 1 point is in the same boat (well in a Cam game). White Wolf is not terribly good with balance so there are lots of little things like this in the game. The fact the generation is by FAR the best 5 points to spend backgrounds/freebies on at the start is another issue. The power difference between an 8th gen and a 10th gen is HUGE mainly for the amount of blood you can spend each round. Even 9th is a BIG jump in power compared to 10th.

Yeah, but playing 8th Gens is also basically an entire different game than playing 9th-13th gens. Elders have an entirely different mindset than neonates/ancilla, and fight correspondingly more dangerous threats. It really is one of WW's best and worst things, that they don't put very much work into balancing the game and devote all their attention to making the game fit their story/world setting.

[Andezzar]

Age != Low Generation. Someone using 5 background points on Generation is no older than one using none. It should not even award the character any additional status per se.

[Chen]

Age != Low Generation. Someone using 5 background points on Generation is no older than one using none. It should not even award the character any additional status per se.

Exactly, though there is another background called Age which does give you extra freebies at the cost of humanity and makes you older. Anyway, generation doesn't generally come up in the social circles of the game unless you're elder blood (generation 7 or lower). At that point you do start seeing some benefits even if you are a neonate because your sire is clearly someone very powerful. But there are presumably a good number of 7th generation vampires out there that could have sired an 8th gen fledgeling. Enough that its not generally a big deal, socially.

In terms of power level though, being able to spend 3 blood/turn is an enormous advantage. The extra blood pool doesn't hurt either and being immune to most people's dominate is nice as well (though we've house ruled that for every generation higher than you a vampire is the attempt is just at +1 difficulty instead of flat out impossible). Blood/turn is really the breaking point of generation and its why path of blood 3 is possibly one of the best disciplines out there (combine with Principal Focus of Vitae Infusion ritual and its downright broken).

[Smokey]

So, you chosen a Gangrel, and seemingly a brawler but who are you?

I've always found V:tM to be very rich soil for roleplay. Who were you, in life? At what age were you embraced (important, as you won't age further!)? As a Gangrel you more than likely come from some sort of rural and rugged archetype.

Who was/is your sire and why did they choose you for the becoming? Do they remain involved in your unlife, taking an interest or were they content or uncaring enough to cast you aside?

How does your Gangrel view his unlife? Is it a curse? A blessing? How does he view other vampires? How does he view humans?

The backstory of any character with hidden secrets and motivations will lead to a far richer game, I've found. The color is far more important than the shaded circles.

[Talakeal]

If you have the money and know a good plastic surgeon ( or a Tszimisce) invest in a body double ghoul who can be seen with a reflection for throwing people of the scent.

Hanging out with the Tzimisce is not exactly the best way to convince people you aren't a Sabbat spy.