True mind Switching a Terrasque

[Dairuga]

Here is a bit of a trouble-inducing question for you all, o knowledgeable souls of the playground! I have run into a bit of a problem, and I am looking to you for assistance.

Okay, so, imagine an epic scenario. People are going to ascend, become gods, etc, etc. Epic levels, growing powerful beyond belief, etc.

So, why would anyone want to ascend and become some lowly quasi-god in an arbitrary, faraway plane, when you can become a near-god-on-earth like being? That's right. Said character wants to become a Terrasque. Imagine finding such an enormous beast, knock it out (Hence causing it to fail its will save against the True Mind switch), cast alter self (perhaps with some DM allowed Manifest Psionic Alter self) to remain looking like a human for as long as you like, with all the EX-skills of a terrasque. For alternative fun, you can possibly coat your old body in quintessence, and swallow it whole. (or again, with DM's permission, a Spell-to-power Erudite that could cast Hoard gullet with Permanency and store it there)

So, the problem. 48 HD.

True mind switch can only be used on creatures with the same or lower HD as you have manifester levels... But getting all the way up to level 48 would be a rather... ardeous task, even by epic standards.

So the question is, what ways can be used to circumvent this? Are there any helpful ways that could temporarily increase your manifester level to a large enough degree that you could feasibly True Mind Switch a Terrasque at around level 30ish? Given that the duration is instantaneous, it would not be a problem if the ML drops down after the switch is complete, as long as it is as high as required during casting.

Assume that all books are available.

[Godskook]

What do we have to work with? Cause, for instance, Wilder 28 can wildsurge for +8 ML, closing the gap significantly.

[Elric VIII]

You can get this with the use of Mind Mage (Dr313), Cerebremancer, a Soul Manifester.


Alright, here goes:

Human
1 Sorcerer 1: Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell
2Psion 1: Overchannel
3Psion 2: [Psi-Spell feat 1]
4Psion 3: -
5Cerebremancer 1: -
6Cerebremancer 2: [Psi-Spell feat 2]
7Cerebremancer 3: -
8Mind Mage 1: -
9Mind Mage 2: Practiced Manifester
10Mind Mage 3: -
11Mind Mage 4: -
12Mind Mage 5: Shape Soulmeld
13Mind Mage 6: -
14Mind Mage 7: -
15Mind Mage 8: Open Least Chakra
16Mind Mage 9: -
17Mind Mage 10: -
18Incarnate 1: Azure Talent
19Soul Manifester 1: -
20Soul Manifester 2: -
21Soul Manifester 3: [Free slot]
22Soul Manifester 4: -
23Soul Manifester 5: -
24Soul Manifester 6: [Free slot]
25Soul Manifester 7: -
26Soul Manifester 8: -
27Soul Manifester 9: [Free slot]
28Soul Manifester 10: -
29Cerebremancer 4: -
30Cerebremancer 5: [Free slot]

So, Mind Mage is 8/10 manifesting/spellcasting, Cerebremancer is 10/10 manifesting/spellcasting, and Soul Manifester is 10/10 manifesting/meldshaping. With the 1 level in Sorcerer and Incarnate, that brings you up to 26/30 manifesting (11/30 meldshaping and 14/30 spellcasting); Practiced Manifester brings that up to 30/30 ML.

Mind Mage has the special ability that it adds its entire level to manifesting 1/day (that is in addition to the ML boost from the +1 level of psionic class). That adds 10 to your ML, bringing you up to 40.

Soul Manifester lets you invest 2 essentia into a power to increase the ML and DC by 2.

Overchannel adds +3 ML.

So that's 45 there without items.


EDIT:
Now, having typed all that up... There is an epic feat in Complete Psionic called Improved Overchannel. It lets you add up to double your ML to a given power, but you take 2d8 damage for each increase. Just Reality Revision for a Delay Death and go nuts. It'll only be 36d8 on a Psion 30.


Alternatively, a STP Erudite using the Consumptive Field trick can get it up there.


Also, I think there might be a Taint-based psionic class in the Mind's Eye, and we all know how balanced that system is.

[KicktheCAN]

Taking a Bloodline from Unearthed Arcana will increase your Manifester Level by 3 for a minimal experience cost.

[Demonic_Spoon]

There's also the Overchannel feat orange ioun stone. Or cast mental pinnacle and use a power stone of true mind switch or whatever.

[ahenobarbi]

Be a cleric 25, boost your CL (Divine spell power +6, Ioun stone +1, prayer beads +4, consumptive field +12 = +23CL), cast miracle, pay 5000XP.

[the_david]

Seriously, do you have any idea what it costs to feed a Tarrasque? It eats a country per day! :tongue:

[lord_khaine]

Be a cleric 25, boost your CL (Divine spell power +6, Ioun stone +1, prayer beads +4, consumptive field +12 = +23CL), cast miracle, pay 5000XP.

Unfortunately, a Miracle cant create a True Mind Swich.

[hushblade]

Seriously, do you have any idea what it costs to feed a Tarrasque? It eats a country per day! :tongue:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroesFeast.htm
Enough for 12 creatures 1 creature per level, the tarrasque is a creature. Pay a cleric to cast that daily.

[ahenobarbi]

Seriously, do you have any idea what it costs to feed a Tarrasque? It eats a country per day! :tongue:

Ring of sustenance? Semi-elemental plane of tasty burgers :smallbiggrin:


Unfortunately, a Miracle cant create a True Mind Swich.

Why?


A miracle can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.

(...)
If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved.

[KillianHawkeye]

Imagine finding such an enormous beast, knock it out (Hence causing it to fail its will save against the True Mind switch)

Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.

[Elric VIII]

Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.

But in D&D unconscious = willing. I live my life by that rule. :smallamused:

[ahenobarbi]

Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.

SR is not a problem... you need ML 48 for this to work, so you can not fail check. On this levels your primary casting stat will be easily
15 (start) + 5 (leveling) + 5 (inherent) + 6 (enchantment from item) = 31
so DC is at least 10 + 10 + 9 = 29. Not too good (you are targeting +20 will save) but you can lower that by debuffing it first.

[KillianHawkeye]

But in D&D unconscious = willing. I live my life by that rule. :smallamused:

That doesn't mean what you think it means.

Some spells specify that they only work on willing targets (e.g. teleport). That doesn't mean that an unconscious target automatically fails all saving throws.

[Wavelab]

I fear your plan is flawed in multiple ways. Allow me to point out a few:

1. The tarrasque has the tendency to sleep for a very long time, wake up, eat then go to bed again. So only do it if the player doesn't mind waiting a thousand years to play. And before you question this see point 2.

2. The primordials have complete control over the tarrasque and if you take over its body, you will either be controlled or you will piss off four really big guys.

3. I'm sure you are aware how many people want to kill the tarrasque and as soon as some powerful wizard founds out about you some fighting is gonna go down.

4. Technically most(if not all) of its abilities should cease to function if you use alter self since things like the deflective carapace and the ability to swallow whole is tied directly to it's physical properties.

5. Being a lowly quasi god is much cooler.

Send my greetings to the tarrasque.

[deuxhero]

Perhaps you could give it some negative levels (and find how to make them permanent) to get rid of some of its HD (but not its EX abilities)?

[Shadowleaf]

I fear your plan is flawed in multiple ways. Allow me to point out a few:

1. The tarrasque has the tendency to sleep for a very long time, wake up, eat then go to bed again. So only do it if the player doesn't mind waiting a thousand years to play. And before you question this see point 2.

2. The primordials have complete control over the tarrasque and if you take over its body, you will either be controlled or you will piss off four really big guys.

3. I'm sure you are aware how many people want to kill the tarrasque and as soon as some powerful wizard founds out about you some fighting is gonna go down.

4. Technically most(if not all) of its abilities should cease to function if you use alter self since things like the deflective carapace and the ability to swallow whole is tied directly to it's physical properties.

5. Being a lowly quasi god is much cooler.

Send my greetings to the tarrasque.
Nothing a Ring of Sustenance and a good Bluff check can't take care of. I'm fairly certain you don't lose your Ex abilities when you Alter Self.

[Wavelab]

Nothing a Ring of Sustenance and a good Bluff check can't take care of. I'm fairly certain you don't lose your Ex abilities when you Alter Self.

Hmm that is true. And no you don't lose them but logically you are supposed to and a DM might rule that way.

[Shadowleaf]

Hmm that is true. And no you don't lose them but logically you are supposed to and a DM might rule that way.

You could take an RP-ish approach and argue that you have "assimilated" the Tarrasque and therefore have figured out how to improve your Human form (with natural plating, boosted blood coagulation and an extra stomach sack for swallowing whole).

[Alleran]

1. The tarrasque has the tendency to sleep for a very long time, wake up, eat then go to bed again. So only do it if the player doesn't mind waiting a thousand years to play. And before you question this see point 2.

2. The primordials have complete control over the tarrasque and if you take over its body, you will either be controlled or you will piss off four really big guys.
I think primordials controlling the tarrasque might be 4E-FR specific. With regards to your first point, if you're in a tarrasque body, I don't see why you couldn't just avoid going into hibernation with a Ring of Sustenance (if you even need that).

[Thiramon]

*snip*

EDIT:
Now, having typed all that up... There is an epic feat in Complete Psionic called Improved Overchannel. It lets you add up to double your ML to a given power, but you take 2d8 damage for each increase. Just Reality Revision for a Delay Death and go nuts. It'll only be 36d8 on a Psion 30.

Why do you cause yourself so much trouble? ;)

Use Timeless body (http://dndsrd.net/psionicPowersQtoW.html#timeless-body) in the first round, then Improved Overchannel with your True Mind Switch. Damage? What Damage? ^^

Regards,

Thiramon

[Eldan]

Isn't there anything better than a Tarrasque to take over if you can reach ML 48? Some epic creature or something?

[Psyren]

Why?

Miracle can do just about anything in theory - with deific (read:DM) approval. But if your DM is going to allow that he may as well let you research your own version of TMS with no HD restriction.

[Steward]

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm)

It shouldn't be a problem though as long as you don't use alter self while you are the tarrasque.

[ahenobarbi]

Miracle can do just about anything in theory - with deific (read:DM) approval. But if your DM is going to allow that he may as well let you research your own version of TMS with no HD restriction.

So you can use miracle to do this,but DM may ban it.That's not "you can't do it".

[Psyren]

So you can use miracle to do this,but DM may ban it.That's not "you can't do it".

You can't. Your deity does all the work, and the DM controls him, not you. All Miracle lets you do is ask.


You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

If your deity does not grant your request, Miracle does nothing, by RAW. It is not Wish.

[Godskook]

Why?

Miracle has guidelines that govern its usage. It doesn't do "whatever". Guideline A can be accurately summarized as "no more powerful than an 8th level cleric spell". And True Mind Switch, being a 9th level psionic power, does not qualify. Guideline B is *INCREDIBLY* hard to adjudicate, but one thing's *definitely* for sure: there's no guarantee that the spell will actually do it(same with wish). I know some DMs simply ban Guideline B for simplicity's sake(tournaments especially).

[ahenobarbi]

(I see this as TO, so I don't worry about DM. Besides if DM doesn't want you to get big T's body [s]he has many more legit ways than "miracle doesn't work")

Well gods grants you every single cleric power, so you could argue "no, cleric can't do anything at all, diety (controlled by DM) does it".

Besides you can choose diety that will allow this. You can worship concept that is very much in line with that action.

And is about as powerful as examples given in Miracle description for XP-paying version.

[Wavelab]

Isn't there anything better than a Tarrasque to take over if you can reach ML 48? Some epic creature or something?

Agreed. I mean just look at this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires)

If I recall correctly that is the highest CR creature in the ELH and the one that is capable of dealing the most damage. The only problem is you'll look like a freak but hey you wanted to look like a tarrasque.

[tyckspoon]

Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.

Really simple solution:

Dominate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatePsionic.htm) it first, order it to not resist the next power you manifest on it, Mind Switch.

(If your DM rules this is 'against the Tarrasque's nature' or an obviously self-destructive order and thus won't be obeyed, well, you've still got a Dominated Tarrasque, so you can keep it docile and in one place while you rig the save in your favor.. hire a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard to stand on it or something, get a Bard to Doomspeak it, whatever.)

[Mystify]

Meh, I'm not impressed enough by terrasque to want to even attempt this. I can make a druid's animal companion tear it apart before epic levels.

[ahenobarbi]

Meh, I'm not impressed enough by terrasque to want to even attempt this. I can make a druid's animal companion tear it apart before epic levels.

If it really slumbers most of the time... can't you just coup it?

[Mystify]

If it really slumbers most of the time... can't you just coup it?

Maybe, if you can find it, and it doesn't wake up.
I meant I could take it in a direct battle without any problem.

[Eldan]

That wouldn't kill it: you can't coup with nonlethal damage, and since it regenerates all damage, all damage is nonlethal to it.

[Mystify]

That wouldn't kill it: you can't coup with nonlethal damage, and since it regenerates all damage, all damage is nonlethal to it.

You are right, the coup de grace doesn't work at all. I thought it would render it to a wishable state, but closer examination shows that it wouldn't help.

[deuxhero]

Teleport it to the middle of the ocean (it is willing due to sleep). Watch it sink and take damage from drowning and pressure.

One scroll (though you want some return mechanism) and you have taken it out of the action till you have MUCH bigger problems.


Actually, how does Big T+Sphere of annihilation work?

[Psyren]

Actually, how does Big T+Sphere of annihilation work?

"Sucked into the void" - whether it actually dies in there or not is irrelevant.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Perhaps you could give it some negative levels (and find how to make them permanent) to get rid of some of its HD (but not its EX abilities)?

Oh, here we go. Mindwipe it till it has 28 negative levels (that'll cost you ~98 pp), then use true mind switch. Have your cleric heal the negative levels, and you're good to go. No danger of dying either, the tarrasque's regeneration is specifically an extraordinary ability and not even the negative levels could kill you.

This means you could do it at level 17. Your only problem is going to be overcoming its spell resistance 14 times in a row (and, if your GM lets it make saving throws, having a really high save DC). If you have access to a wizard or cleric, you could use spells like energy drain (but then you'd be in danger of being hit by reflected rays).


A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:

...

-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).


You can target any creature whose Hit Dice are equal to or less than your manifester level.

[Derjuin]

Oh, here we go. Mindwipe it till it has 28 negative levels (that'll cost you ~98 pp), then use true mind switch. Have your cleric heal the negative levels, and you're good to go. No danger of dying either, the tarrasque's regeneration is specifically an extraordinary ability and not even the negative levels could kill you.

This means you could do it at level 17. Your only problem is going to be overcoming its spell resistance 14 times in a row (and, if your GM lets it make saving throws, having a really high save DC). If you have access to a wizard or cleric, you could use spells like energy drain (but then you'd be in danger of being hit by reflected rays).

Problem - Tarrasque's immune to negative levels/energy drain, so you can't lower its HD like that.



Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain,

Seems like raising your ML a ton is the best way, unless Epic Psionics is involved.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Problem - Tarrasque's immune to negative levels/energy drain, so you can't lower its HD like that.



Seems like raising your ML a ton is the best way, unless Epic Psionics is involved.

Ah, that would be a problem.

The Orange Prism ioun stone is a typeless bonus to caster level and it might stack. If you're playing with psionics-magic transparency you could use those to boost your manifester level in addition to anything else you do. (That's two "ifs", though.)

You could also just create your own epic psionic power to pull it off at level 21.

[Suddo]

Why can't you mind swap with something big and stupid and then simply ascend god hood. I mean Mind Swapping is always a good option, especially when you can bread your own stuff.

[NineThePuma]

I can make a druid's animal companion tear it apart before epic levels.

[citation needed]

[Mystify]

[citation needed]

It was a build focused entirely around the companion, then buffing it up. Fully buffed, it outclassed tarrasque on every relevant combat stat, and would easily tear it apart.

[NineThePuma]

That's not a citation. Describe this build.

[Harry]

You could get a wizard cohort then find the terrasque have him dominate it have the wizard give him a lot of negative levels then put yourself in a cage Then true mind switch with it get a thought bottle use it kill or eat your old body Activate The thought bottle again and thats how you true mind switch with the terrasque:smallbiggrin:

[Quietus]

Ah, that would be a problem.

The Orange Prism ioun stone is a typeless bonus to caster level and it might stack. If you're playing with psionics-magic transparency you could use those to boost your manifester level in addition to anything else you do. (That's two "ifs", though.)

You could also just create your own epic psionic power to pull it off at level 21.

Bonuses of the same type/from the same source don't stack, therefore the CL boost from one orange prism won't stack with the CL boost from another orange prism. Also, I can't remember if psionics-magic transparency extends to items in that way, offhand, though I'll grant that it's not unreasonable.

[Mystify]

That's not a citation. Describe this build.
Ok, here is its fully buffed sat block

Huge
20d8+250+3(+20d8 temp)
speed 40
Ac 38(-2 size, +6 dex, +24 natural)
Bab +15
Attak: Claw +63 (2d8+49)
Full 3 claws +63 (2d8+49) and 2 claws(1d6+49) and bite +62 (1d10+33) and gore(2d8+33)(double on charge)
hit with 2 clawS: rend (2d4+44)
speace reach 15ft/10ft
Saves: Fort 22, ref 15, will 15
str 69
dex 25
con 35
int 2
wis 12
char 10
Feats:
Alertness
Endurnce
Run
Toughness
Weapon Focus(claw)
multiattack
improved multiattack
improved natural attack(claw)
Evasion
(blind-fight, power attack)

DR 10/magic
haste

[Godskook]

(I see this as TO, so I don't worry about DM. Besides if DM doesn't want you to get big T's body [s]he has many more legit ways than "miracle doesn't work")

See it however you want, but in actuality, this is practical optimization, not theoretical, since this for an actual player to use in an actual game, with an actual DM!

Yo dawg, they heard I liked actual, so they put actual in my actual so I could actual while I actual.

[NineThePuma]

Ok, here is its fully buffed sat block

Huge
20d8+250+3(+20d8 temp)
speed 40
Ac 38(-2 size, +6 dex, +24 natural)
Bab +15
Attak: Claw +63 (2d8+49)
Full 3 claws +63 (2d8+49) and 2 claws(1d6+49) and bite +62 (1d10+33) and gore(2d8+33)(double on charge)
hit with 2 clawS: rend (2d4+44)
speace reach 15ft/10ft
Saves: Fort 22, ref 15, will 15
str 69
dex 25
con 35
int 2
wis 12
char 10
Feats:
Alertness
Endurnce
Run
Toughness
Weapon Focus(claw)
multiattack
improved multiattack
improved natural attack(claw)
Evasion
(blind-fight, power attack)

DR 10/magic
haste

... That doesn't describe what you're doing, at level 20, to do that.

[Mystify]

... That doesn't describe what you're doing, at level 20, to do that.

A dip into beastmaster for a bonus to animal companion based on level, and the following buffs(theses are the ones I have written down, some would be cast in-combat, some are pre-buffs)

Nature's favor
girallon's blessing
nature's bal;ance
charge of the triceretops
lion's charge
superior magic fang
animal growth
heal animal companion
bite of the werebear
aura of vitality
nature's avatar

I also pour most of the WBL into geat for it.

[Dairuga]

Well, wow. First I must say... Dear lord, I had never thought this Thread would get -this- much attention, hah. Thank you all for your opinions and thoughts, and it has been truly helpful. I will try to answer many of the relevant things in order, so please bear with me. There's so many responses, so I sadly cannot possibly get to them all wtihout spending an entire page on just one post, so I will try to take the most relevant ones.



You can get this with the use of Mind Mage (Dr313), Cerebremancer, a Soul Manifester.


Alright, here goes:

Human
1 Sorcerer 1: Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell
2Psion 1: Overchannel
3Psion 2: [Psi-Spell feat 1]
4Psion 3: -
5Cerebremancer 1: -
6Cerebremancer 2: [Psi-Spell feat 2]
7Cerebremancer 3: -
8Mind Mage 1: -
9Mind Mage 2: Practiced Manifester
10Mind Mage 3: -
11Mind Mage 4: -
12Mind Mage 5: Shape Soulmeld
13Mind Mage 6: -
14Mind Mage 7: -
15Mind Mage 8: Open Least Chakra
16Mind Mage 9: -
17Mind Mage 10: -
18Incarnate 1: Azure Talent
19Soul Manifester 1: -
20Soul Manifester 2: -
21Soul Manifester 3: [Free slot]
22Soul Manifester 4: -
23Soul Manifester 5: -
24Soul Manifester 6: [Free slot]
25Soul Manifester 7: -
26Soul Manifester 8: -
27Soul Manifester 9: [Free slot]
28Soul Manifester 10: -
29Cerebremancer 4: -
30Cerebremancer 5: [Free slot]

So, Mind Mage is 8/10 manifesting/spellcasting, Cerebremancer is 10/10 manifesting/spellcasting, and Soul Manifester is 10/10 manifesting/meldshaping. With the 1 level in Sorcerer and Incarnate, that brings you up to 26/30 manifesting (11/30 meldshaping and 14/30 spellcasting); Practiced Manifester brings that up to 30/30 ML.

Mind Mage has the special ability that it adds its entire level to manifesting 1/day (that is in addition to the ML boost from the +1 level of psionic class). That adds 10 to your ML, bringing you up to 40.

Soul Manifester lets you invest 2 essentia into a power to increase the ML and DC by 2.

Overchannel adds +3 ML.

So that's 45 there without items.


EDIT:
Now, having typed all that up... There is an epic feat in Complete Psionic called Improved Overchannel. It lets you add up to double your ML to a given power, but you take 2d8 damage for each increase. Just Reality Revision for a Delay Death and go nuts. It'll only be 36d8 on a Psion 30.


Alternatively, a STP Erudite using the Consumptive Field trick can get it up there.


Also, I think there might be a Taint-based psionic class in the Mind's Eye, and we all know how balanced that system is.

THank you truly for your help and willingness to give an entire -build- to help! This is tremendously helpful, as I had only thought of going Psion or Erudite all the way. And a feat like the improved overchannel is exactly what I was looking for. It seems, if you can prevent vast amounts of damage (Which is quite feasible, with a cleric and a wizard to help whom are going to ascend), and I think that would be a very, very good way of doing things.





Be a cleric 25, boost your CL (Divine spell power +6, Ioun stone +1, prayer beads +4, consumptive field +12 = +23CL), cast miracle, pay 5000XP.

The problem about a STP Erudite doing the consumptive field trick would be that the Consumptive field grants Caster levels, and not Manifester levels. The group In question does not play with the Power to spell transparency (One person claimed that Psions were seemingly weak already, due to him being used to spellcasting classes, and chose to keep them separated), so I doubt the Consumptive field trick would work.


Your first problem is that being unconscious does not prevent Big T from making his save against True Mind Switch. So you still need to get past his +20 Will save and SR 32.

I could swear that I recall reading somewhere that when a creature was unconcious, it was counted as willing against spells and such. This also seems to be the group's thoughts, so I doubted that was wrong. Or am I misinterpreting things? It was my thoughts that willing creatures did not make will saves against spells that affects the mind, for example, because they are willing to have the spells put on them.

Does anyone know where this is from? Or where I might be wrong?



But in D&D unconscious = willing. I live my life by that rule. :smallamused:

HAH! XD
What can I say? I laughed.


I fear your plan is flawed in multiple ways. Allow me to point out a few:

1. The tarrasque has the tendency to sleep for a very long time, wake up, eat then go to bed again. So only do it if the player doesn't mind waiting a thousand years to play. And before you question this see point 2.

2. The primordials have complete control over the tarrasque and if you take over its body, you will either be controlled or you will piss off four really big guys.

3. I'm sure you are aware how many people want to kill the tarrasque and as soon as some powerful wizard founds out about you some fighting is gonna go down.

4. Technically most(if not all) of its abilities should cease to function if you use alter self since things like the deflective carapace and the ability to swallow whole is tied directly to it's physical properties.

5. Being a lowly quasi god is much cooler.

Send my greetings to the tarrasque.

1-2. Yes, this might be a point, but this seems, as pointed out above, to be a bit 4E-FR specific. Plus, the DM is not putting this roleplay in any specific world, and I am pretty sure he would not make these big guys angry at someone messing with the terrasque. As for the first point; again, I suppose that a ring of sustenance would do the trick to prevent hibernation. Or rather, one could discuss as to "Why" Terrasques go into hibernation, if they need to on a vital basis or not, but yes.

3. Why yes, I know many people would like to hunt down a terrasque. I would be one of them (well, a psionic character, anyhow; and at level 30, one of the stronger one in this world; I suppose. Most people at such higher levels, are explained to usually find ways to ascend and / or achieve godhood and such, which is a rumor that entices quite the few adventurers. Which is the explanation as to why there's not too many epic people running around. The plan was, however, to assume the body and strenghts and such of a terrasque, and then go on and live nonchalantly with a normal human's body to avoid rousing suspicious. Perhaps play a few games of "Who can hit stuff the lightest" and so on. I did not actually plan out what would happen after the character got Terrasqued / retired, but I suppose Nondetection or such being permanencied could help?

4. Yes... I saw the explanation above about how the EX abilities would cease functioning, which was a bummer.. But I am sure teh DM, due to rule of cool, would allow it to be somehow; in one roleplayish way or another. He thought the idea of stealing a terrasque's body was awesome, as opposed to the usual ascending.

5. Opinions may vary :D


Why do you cause yourself so much trouble? ;)

Use Timeless body (http://dndsrd.net/psionicPowersQtoW.html#timeless-body) in the first round, then Improved Overchannel with your True Mind Switch. Damage? What Damage? ^^

Regards,

Thiramon

Timeless body renders you immune to all powers; positive and negative... I think that, all rulings aside, the rule lawyer in our group would judge that to equal "You are immune to all powers ,and thus cannot be affected by your own TMS". But I am not sure about that.. it would be worth a shot!


You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm)

It shouldn't be a problem though as long as you don't use alter self while you are the tarrasque.

Thank you very much for this. Yeees, that pretty much puts a hamper on my plans, and it was good that someone found this. But still... Perhaps there would be another way to look like a human and still be able to keep said reflective Carapece, regeneration and such?


Meh, I'm not impressed enough by terrasque to want to even attempt this. I can make a druid's animal companion tear it apart before epic levels.

Well... I am not all experienced with the game, even if I have been thrown a few rulebooks on me. So as far as I know, this was very epic. I am quite impressed with how you managed to make an animal companion strong enough to rival a terrasque. God, wow. :smallcool: You my sir, are epic.

And thank you all, again, for so many comments. I am truly glad that you paid this much attention to it, and as a newbie here in the playgrounds, it means a lot to me that people were so willing to help. I can only hope I get to actually put this all to use.

[Alleran]

Well... I am not all experienced with the game, even if I have been thrown a few rulebooks on me. So as far as I know, this was very epic.
In general, the Tarrasque is not that powerful for its CR. IIRC, a fairly well-optimised group of level 13 characters (as long as they include a wizard) should be able to bring it down without too much trouble. A better target for your True Mind Switch would be something like a Great Wyrm epic dragon (I recommend Time Dragons, personally), since those are significantly more powerful, and a better challenge at epic levels.

[Thiramon]

*snip*

Timeless body renders you immune to all powers; positive and negative... I think that, all rulings aside, the rule lawyer in our group would judge that to equal "You are immune to all powers ,and thus cannot be affected by your own TMS". But I am not sure about that.. it would be worth a shot!


Yeah, he could argue with you. True Mind Switch has a one minute casting time, so you cast it with your increased ML, paying the PP instantly (Timeless Body lets you ignore the damage), but the effect comes into play after one minute - when you are no longer immune to your power.

Another cheesy way would be the combo of Timeless Body and a Improved Overchanneled [insert 1st level power] with a Linked Power'ed [CPsi] True Mind Switch. Would be looking that way:

Round 1: Manifest Timeless Body
Round 2: Use Improved Overchannel, target the Terrasque with a Attraction/Psionic Dominate including a linked True Mind Switch.
Round 3: True Mind Switch comes into effect. Enjoy your new Terrasque body.

Linked Power states - RAW - that the linked power goes off in the next round. Your rule lawyer should be okay with that.

Regards,

Thiramon

[the_archduke]

As for the eating issue, the second level power sustenance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sustenance.htm) will solve all of your problems. Don't have to worry about losing your ring. All you have to commit is one second level power known. You could be an Elan and get the same thing.

[lord_khaine]

For that matter i dont see the reason for using timeless body, when a simple Vigor should be more than enough to eat the overchannel damage, for a much simpler solution.

[tyckspoon]

In general, the Tarrasque is not that powerful for its CR. IIRC, a fairly well-optimised group of level 13 characters (as long as they include a wizard) should be able to bring it down without too much trouble. A better target for your True Mind Switch would be something like a Great Wyrm epic dragon (I recommend Time Dragons, personally), since those are significantly more powerful, and a better challenge at epic levels.

Epic Dragons are also *far* more difficult and dangerous to successfully Switch into, with Will saves in the +30-40s range compared to the Tarrasque's relatively puny +20 (for dragons in the same HD range as the Tarrasque. Trying to arrange a True Mind Switch into a Great Wyrm Epic Dragon, with 78 HD and a +68 Will? ...you'd be better off just making an Epic Spell/Power to transform yourself into one by the time you could seriously attempt that.)

I think you're underestimating the value of acquiring the Tarrasque's body, too. The Tarrasque can be taken down by relatively low-level characters because it's just the Tarrasque- it's a big, dumb, melee-only brute. But after you True Mind Switch into it, that's not what you're dealing with anymore. Now it's a huge body with excellent defensive abilities plus the intelligence and powers of an Epic Psion.

(Random sidenote: Mind Switch does not give you the Supernatural and Spell-like qualities of the thing you switch into. That means you will not get many of the abilities that might make a dragon more attractive, such as a Force Dragon's continuous Displacement and Invisibility.. the only (Supernatural) thing on a Tarrasque? The fear aura. And the DR, but it's not like you really cared about DR 15 at this point anyway.)

[Mystify]

Now it's a huge body with excellent defensive abilities plus the intelligence and powers of an Epic Psion.
That is a fair point.

[Tesla_pasta]

That is a fair an awesome point.

fixed because ten characters long

[The Oni]

So he's going to be Professor Charles Godzilla Xavier?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Instead of increasing your ML you could also get a reasonably optimized Druid or Wizard to cast Baleful Polymorph on the Tarrasque (Druid is easier since Owl's Insight allows for higher DCs).
Wait 24 hours for it to lose it's mind, True Mind Switch (possible with a power stone and UPD since it only has the stats of a wimpy 1HD animal at the time) then get the Baleful Polymorph dispelled.

Getting the DC high enough for pretty much guaranteed success is pretty easy as a druid with moderate optimization.
If you have access to someone who can cast Baleful Polymorph with a high enough DC and CL to overcome SR that's probably the cheapest option, requiring only the cost of a TMS power stone.

[Brookshw]

I think primordials controlling the tarrasque might be 4E-FR specific. With regards to your first point, if you're in a tarrasque body, I don't see why you couldn't just avoid going into hibernation with a Ring of Sustenance (if you even need that).

First I've heard of this so I'm guessing 4e. 2e it slept for a decade.

[Hellwyrm]

While this isn't technically using true mindswitch, I know rubick has posted a build that starting at level 6, used the power fusion and the power astral seed to combine with a series of higher and higher hit dice monsters, till finally reaching the devastation beetle at 144 HD, then level draining of the hitdie and replacing them with casting levels.

If you didn't want to go to those extremes, you could be a 15th level psion with the powers fusion, astral seed and psionic dominate, then dominate the terrasque, fuse with it, manifest astral seed, dismiss fusion, then commit suicide and come back as terrasque psion.

[Alent]

While this isn't technically using true mindswitch, I know rubick has posted a build that starting at level 6, used the power fusion and the power astral seed to combine with a series of higher and higher hit dice monsters, till finally reaching the devastation beetle at 144 HD, then level draining of the hitdie and replacing them with casting levels.

If you didn't want to go to those extremes, you could be a 15th level psion with the powers fusion, astral seed and psionic dominate, then dominate the terrasque, fuse with it, manifest astral seed, dismiss fusion, then commit suicide and come back as terrasque psion.

The only thing missing here is fusing with an ooze for split (Ex) before it takes wish to kill you.

[Phelix-Mu]

Thread necromancy alert!:smallfrown:

[Invader]

It might have already been mentioned but you should convince your player that big T is garbage and being a diety is better :smallbiggrin:

[Endarire]

The feat Psionic Mastery (Complete Psionic) allows you to take 10 on all manifester level checks. That may help.

As for why you'd want to? Because it's cool. Because you can. Because no one else expects it. Because, "why not?"

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.