[3.5] Leadership and enhancement bonuses

[hymer]

A PC in my campaign may soon select Leadership for a feat. He's certain to be using items to boost his charisma score. I'm thinking only permanent charisma score (so his actual score, modified for base score, level adjustment, age adjustment, racial adjustment and inherent bonus) should apply for Leadership Score purposes; sort of like intelligence and skill points.
How would/do you handle that? I'm trying to avoid a situation where an already powerful ability is further enhanced by someone merely casting Eagle's Splendor on the PC at key times.
The player thinking of taking Leadership isn't likely to abuse it, but he may inspire others with fewer scruples.

[Quirp]

I think you could handle it like a ring of sustenance or similiar items. When he can aquire a non permanent bonus that stays around for at least a week (cloak of charisma, persisted eagle´s splendor cast every day, ...) it should count towards his leadership score, since the charisma he has at all times (day and night, adventuring or buying some potatoes) attracts followers and cohorts. Following this guideline a normal eagle´s splendor wouldn´t help in getting a higher leadership score, but a PC that invests resources in his charisma can ge a higher score.

[Doorhandle]

What he said.It works like spells: Fox's Cunning won't get you any extra spells/day,etheir, so it's only fair...as far as full-casting and leadership is fair anyway...

[hymer]

Sounds good. If, say, his cloak of charisma gets disjoined with no easy replacement, things just freeze at their current status - nothing lost, but no gains possible until the Leadership Score rises above its former level. And if he does nothing over too long a time scale (or puts on a different magical cloak), lesser followers start to slip away.
I also like it that he has to keep the particular item slot closed. It always struck me as disheartening when people walk around with a bag of holding's worth of healing belts, for example.

Thanks guys!

[Coidzor]

(or puts on a different magical cloak)

You guys should look into the magic item compendium if at all possible in that case.

[hymer]

Just to clear up, I was using it as an example. The idea being, if he chooses to do away with his semi-permanent enhancement bonus to charisma, his Leadership Score should reflect this and drop accordingly; but if he's merely temporarily robbed of the bonus, there are no ill effects straight away.

What were you thinking of specifically, Coidzor? We do have access to MIC. Are you thinking of Table 6-11: Adding/Improving Common Item Effects (p. 234)?
I'm guessing the eventual aim will be to get the Belt of Magnificence, rather than individual stat-boosters, though Belt of Battle will be sorely missed. Anyway, not my conundrum, it's up to the player.

[Godskook]

It always struck me as disheartening when people walk around with a bag of holding's worth of healing belts, for example.

That's what homebrew is for:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121399

Also, what's so disheartening about it? Its called *GOOD ROLEPLAY*. Characters would actually think that way and do that kind of thing, especially when the healing is so annoyingly packaged but is otherwise cheap+useful.

[Andezzar]

What's his Leadership score without the item(s)? Chances are that the Cohort's is level is capped by his level anyway. Followers are more a liability than a benefit IMHO.

[hymer]

@ Godskook: It's disheartening because magic ceases to be magical, I guess. That it may be good roleplaying merely makes that feeling worse.
I'm all for eliminating healbots from the game, but I prefer it be done in ways that feel less like industry, and actually expends resources - wands of cure light spring to mind. And I've no problem with healing belts in the game as such. It's just when people own more than one each it starts to irk me.
As you can tell, I'm no fan of Ye Olde Magic Shoppe.

@ Andezzar: Followers can do some important stuff reliably while the PC is off adventuring. It's nice to have reliable people tending to your home fortress/business/whatever. I'm not really into doing massively evil things behind the PCs' backs. But good help is hard to come by, and I don't mind emphasizing that with more simple trouble.

[Andezzar]

I'm all for eliminating healbots from the game, but I prefer it be done in ways that feel less like industry, and actually expends resources - wands of cure light spring to mind. UMD aside, which classes can use such wands but do not have the spells in their personal spell list? Only bards come to my mind.


@ Andezzar: Followers can do some important stuff reliably while the PC is off adventuring. It's nice to have reliable people tending to your home fortress/business/whatever. I'm not really into doing massively evil things behind the PCs back all the time, but good help is hard to come by, and I don't mind emphasizing that with more simple trouble.It might just be a problem of my paladin who travels a lot - especially to places where Followers can't actually follow. I f th campaign largely takes place in the same location this might work differently. Still from a certain score on it does not matter much unless you really want the level 5-6 followers.

@Cure wands: what I'm trying to say is that there are not many people that can use wands without being able to cast the cure spells normally. So it is not really taking out the healbot but using different resources for healing (money vs spell slots). To be able to reliably use UMD for wands you would need a bonus of +19. That is also a big allocation of resources.

[Golden Ladybug]

It's disheartening because magic ceases to be magical, I guess. That it may be good roleplaying merely makes that feeling worse.
I'm all for eliminating healbots from the game, but I prefer it be done in ways that feel less like industry, and actually expends resources - wands of cure light spring to mind. And I've no problem with healing belts in the game as such. It's just when people own more than one each it starts to irk me.
As you can tell, I'm no fan of Ye Olde Magic Shoppe.

Well, only from a certain point of view. Magic is still Magic, it just follows rules; a Belt created using these spells will do this thing. Its not even really a huge example of Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. If some/lots of people in the world have a Healing Belt they wear in case of emergencies, I like the idea of a pragmatic character making the leap and thinking "If I just carried around lots of those Healing Belts..."

Wands and the like irk me more than renewable resources like the Healing Belt. Lots of Items from the early days of 3.X were like that, and the idea of them annoyed me. Sure, this Helm of Brilliance is cool, but if I use its abilities I'm out 125,000gp. And that's terrible.

But, of course, this comes down to a matter of play style. I don't like consumables or charged items that much, and tend to avoid using them in my game. Because of this, my Players are more likely to find quirky magical items, permanent magic items or armor/weapons than they are to find Non-renewable Items, Potions, Wands or Scrolls.

So yeah.

And, on the topic at hand, I think it is perfectly reasonable for a Cloak of Charisma or similar item to boost a PC's Leadership Score.

[hymer]

@ Andezzar: UMD doesn't cost a charge when it doesn't go off - at least I haven't seen any rule that says it does. All you need is to be trained (though for combat use, you need much more, of course). Misfires only occur when you try to activate blindly.
You're right that wands shift the healbotting resource, but a wand of cure light wound is not likely to be something you use in combat. Healing is generally taken care of in quiet moments in the games I attend. You see, my problem with the healbot isn't that somebody is good at healing. It's that a lot of players expect the cleric to give up his spells for their hp. Anyone can own a wand of cure light wounds, and the cleric (or whoever) I'm sure will be glad to use that wand on them. Just don't expect him to shill out for those wands and use them on you. It makes the resource much more tangible.

@ Golden Ladybug: So nice to share irks with you. ;) And thanks for your opinion on the original topic.

[Godskook]

@ Godskook: It's disheartening because magic ceases to be magical, I guess. That it may be good roleplaying merely makes that feeling worse.
I'm all for eliminating healbots from the game, but I prefer it be done in ways that feel less like industry, and actually expends resources - wands of cure light spring to mind. And I've no problem with healing belts in the game as such. It's just when people own more than one each it starts to irk me.
As you can tell, I'm no fan of Ye Olde Magic Shoppe.

1.In my campaign, while healing belts are 'common' enough to be found in most item shops(750gold costs less than a suit of full plate), potionade is exclusively sold by a single artificer. The PCs lost their potionade belts about 6 months ago, and are still talking about trying to track that dude down. Right now, they're subsisting on healing belts and wands of cure light.

2.Philosophically, there's no difference between carrying 20 healing belts around and carrying 20 cure light wands. The only difference I see is that the wands are temporary while the belts will last. I suppose its fine to think that healing should have a permanent cost, though.

[Hirax]

Grab an admiral's bicorne (Stormwrack) for even more leadership score buffing, if desired.