Could Belkar resurrect them?

[Vinyadan]

As asked. Could Belkar read a scroll and resurrect the dead Dragontooth, like he did when healing Elan? I don't really know the rules about scrolls, but he is a divine caster, after all.

[Jaros]

They'd need a resurrection scroll first, and I think he'd need 19 wisdom to cast a 9th level spell.

[flarecde]

Not so sure they'd be willing to return for a CE caster any more than a LG. I assume they're still good aligned of some sort. Might be best if it were Haley or Elan.

[Kish]

Considering the kidnapping trick as well as the bomb (and, on the other side, the traveling with an unFallen Soon and...that's about it), as this point I would be amazed if Girard's alignment was anything but Chaotic Neutral.

I concur that, if they had a Resurrection scroll, their best bet would be to hope that Haley has enough ranks in Use Magic Device to use it. This is very likely, since (Snips and Snails and Dragon Tales) a lower-level Haley was able to use a Teleport scroll, and even bet the Order's lives on it working.

[ORione]

It's not on the Ranger spell list, so no. Haley or Elan might be able to if they have sufficient ranks in Use Magic Device.

[Elfinor]

It's impossible highly improbable. To cast from a spell from a scroll (in 3.5) you need to have the spell on your spell list (Belkar's spell list is the Ranger spell list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/rangerSpells.htm), which doesn't have Resurrection on it) and have the appropriate ability score (10+spell level=17).

Both of these requirements can be bypassed with the Use Magic Device (UMD) skill, but there is no evidence that Belkar has it (it's also a cross-class skill for ranger and barbarian).

It is possible that Hayley can do it though, and Girard and co. could acquiesce since she's Chaotic. She mentioned being able to use a scroll to contact Durkon a couple of comics ago, which means she must have at least some UMD ranks.

Edit: Ninja'd:smallyuk:

[GMantis]

It is possible that Hayley can do it though, and Girard and co. could acquiesce since she's Chaotic. She mentioned being able to use a scroll to contact Durkon a couple of comics ago, which means she must have at least some UMD ranks.

She would need a lot of ranks, since the DC to emulate the necessary Wisdom score (17) is 32, according to the description of the skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm). Then again, she has a high charisma, so 8 ranks might be sufficient.
Then again, this presumes that they have a scroll.

[Studoku]

No.

Both rangers and clerics are divine casters but they use different spell lists. One of the major differences is that the ranger list only goes up to 4th level. Owl's Wisdom allowed Belkar to cast cure moderate wounds because it is also a ranger spell- ressurection isn't.

Even if the order had a ressurection scroll, it would need two use magical device checks:

DC 32 to emulate 17 wisdom for a 7th level cleric spell.
DC 33 to use a CL 13 scroll (minimum CL of a 7th level spell)

Depending on Haley's Charisma and ranks in UMD (She can cast a 4th level cleric spell with UMD), this might be possible. Again, however, the issue is the lack of such a scroll.

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[Vinyadan]

Ok, thank you for explainig me the scroll rules (I never got how they worked). :smallsmile:

This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) seems to suggest that there is a scroll at their disposal, although I'd rather think Durkon would use it on a member of the Order.

[Kish]

This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) seems to suggest that there is a scroll at their disposal,
For multiple reasons, no, it doesn't.
1) One of the fiends said Durkon had been keeping a scroll of a spell with a ten-minute casting time after referring to the spells Sending and Resurrection. Coincidentally, that describes both Sending and Resurrection.
2) Vaarsuvius didn't know Resurrection had a ten-minute casting time. So, presumably, the spell Vaarsuvius thought it meant was Sending.
3) But in any case, the fiend must have been simply lying, since Durkon has since had need for a scroll of Sending--when he used up all his prepared castings arguing with Roy--and for a scroll of Resurrection--when his diamonds to resurrect Roy were stolen. In neither case did he produce such a scroll, or suggest that he was keeping one even though he could have used it, or do anything but say, "Well, crap." (Figuratively speaking.)

[Raimun]

Even if Haley could resurrect someone via a scroll (they have the scroll, she has Use Magic Device-skill and rolls high enough), Draketooth clansmen might still refuse to be resurrected if they tried it right away.

Draketooths seem to have all taken Improved Paranoia, so they might still suspect the Chaotic Good person resurrecting them is in league with the paladins.

It looks like to be one of those situations where it is highly entertaining, if not appropriate to make some choo choo-noices. :smallamused:

[zimmerwald1915]

Considering the kidnapping trick as well as the bomb (and, on the other side, the traveling with an unFallen Soon and...that's about it), as this point I would be amazed if Girard's alignment was anything but Chaotic Neutral.

I concur that, if they had a Resurrection scroll, their best bet would be to hope that Haley has enough ranks in Use Magic Device to use it. This is very likely, since (Snips and Snails and Dragon Tales) a lower-level Haley was able to use a Teleport scroll, and even bet the Order's lives on it working.
You needn't bring up SSDT. Haley mentions using a Sending scroll in 834 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html).

[hoff]

It's very unlikely that they have a resurrect scroll with them. Those are not cheap and the only reason I can think for them to have one was so that Haley could use it on Durkon if Durkon dies and they can't bring him to a cleric. I doubt anyone in the order is crazy prepared enough to think that, all that assuming that Haley does have enough ranks in use magic device.

[AGow95]

no, just because they don't trust LG people, it doesn't mean they trust CE people, who are the people most likely to abuse the gates, they'd need someone who wasn't lawful or evil

[Dark Elf Bard]

If V cast Owl's wisdom, he might...

[kickassfrog]

For multiple reasons, no, it doesn't.
1) One of the fiends said Durkon had been keeping a scroll of a spell with a ten-minute casting time after referring to the spells Sending and Resurrection. Coincidentally, that describes both Sending and Resurrection.
2) Vaarsuvius didn't know Resurrection had a ten-minute casting time. So, presumably, the spell Vaarsuvius thought it meant was Sending.
3) But in any case, the fiend must have been simply lying, since Durkon has since had need for a scroll of Sending--when he used up all his prepared castings arguing with Roy--and for a scroll of Resurrection--when his diamonds to resurrect Roy were stolen. In neither case did he produce such a scroll, or suggest that he was keeping one even though he could have used it, or do anything but say, "Well, crap." (Figuratively speaking.)

V is alive and standing next to Durkon, and therefore is dictating the 25 words for the scroll of sending. So no, Durkon doesn't have a scroll of resurrection, as he only needs to prepare the spell when one of the party gets smacked down.

[silvadel]

You know, Haley has become dangerously competent over time.

[phantomreader42]

You know, Haley has become dangerously competent over time.

Being dangerously competent is sort of a rogue's job. They have massive numbers of skill points to spread across several areas, and one of their best class features involves learning exactly where to hit someone who isn't looking to make sure they don't get a chance to look again.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Even if Haley could resurrect someone via a scroll (they have the scroll, she has Use Magic Device-skill and rolls high enough), Draketooth clansmen might still refuse to be resurrected if they tried it right away.

Draketooths seem to have all taken Improved Paranoia, so they might still suspect the Chaotic Good person resurrecting them is in league with the paladins.
I'm not so sure. Firstly there'd be no need to resurrect the same guy if all they want is a Draketooth clansman (they have no way of knowing who these individuals are beyond that much anyway) so the one they raise wouldn't know that a Lawful cleric had previously been trying to raise his kinsmen. Secondly, they're working with Epic level magics on a project that is vital to the stability of the universe, they're bound to have at least one cleric on retainer and are probably wondering why they haven't raised them yet. If all they get to know is the caster's alignment, they may well mistake Haley for their own cleric.

[Roninlemur]

Secondly, they're working with Epic level magics on a project that is vital to the stability of the universe, they're bound to have at least one cleric on retainer and are probably wondering why they haven't raised them yet. If all they get to know is the caster's alignment, they may well mistake Haley for their own cleric.

It makes sense to have a cleric, but I wouldn't expect them to have one since they only trust family. Plus, Girard was anti-religion as per his jibe about Soon's "glorified petting zoo."

[Tala Goodweed]

Excuse me, im a little lost here.
Where does it say that "the spell telepathically tells the dead person`s soul what alignment the caster is"?

The only thing I found was that "the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work"

thank you

[Porthos]

Excuse me, im a little lost here.
Where does it say that "the spell telepathically tells the dead person`s soul what alignment the caster is"?

The only thing I found was that "the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work"

thank you

It's in a different section of the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#bringingBacktheDead). :smallsmile:


Bringing Back the Dead
Several spells have the power to restore slain characters to life.

When a living creature dies, its soul departs its body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature’s deity resides. If the creature did not worship a deity, its soul departs to the plane corresponding to its alignment. Bringing someone back from the dead means retrieving his or her soul and returning it to his or her body.

Level Loss
Any creature brought back to life usually loses one level of experience. The character’s new XP total is midway between the minimum needed for his or her new (reduced) level and the minimum needed for the next one. If the character was 1st level at the time of death, he or she loses 2 points of Constitution instead of losing a level.

This level loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any mortal means, even wish or miracle. A revived character can regain a lost level by earning XP through further adventuring. A revived character who was 1st level at the time of death can regain lost points of Constitution by improving his or her Constitution score when he or she attains a level that allows an ability score increase.

Preventing Revivification
Enemies can take steps to make it more difficult for a character to be returned from the dead. Keeping the body prevents others from using raise dead or resurrection to restore the slain character to life. Casting trap the soul prevents any sort of revivification unless the soul is first released.

Revivification against One’s Will
A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.
Relevant bit underlined. :smallsmile:

[Sniffnoy]

Hold on, so they get name and patron deity as well? You'd think that would have tipped them off this wasn't one of Soon's paladins...

[Porthos]

Hold on, so they get name and patron deity as well? You'd think that would have tipped them off this wasn't one of Soon's paladins...

They know the names of all of Soon's Paladins how exactly? :smallwink:

Or it could be something like:

"Those sneaky Sapphire Guard fascists probably roped someone who worships Thor into doing their dirty work for them. That's the oldest trick in the book. :smallannoyed:"

"Anyway, he's Lawful, so he's probably just has bad as them. :smallyuk:"

"And why would he be here anyway? I bet he's here to take our Gate away from us. :smallmad: Like Hell, I'm gonna help them take over the world. :smallfurious:"

Et etc. Et etc. Et etc. :smallwink:

===

The way I figure it, these folks are so paranoid that they'll only accept raise/rez from someone they know personally.

OK, they might have a contingency in place when they know that the people who normally would cast rez magic aren't available to do the job. Then and only then might they bend rules. But I'm sure they'll figure that they'll know ahead of time when they can't rely on their normal casters.

I mean, it's not as if ALL of their Clerics/People Who Can Use Scrolls will drop dead without a moment's notice And without any sign of combat whatsoever, I might add. :smalltongue:

PS: Paranoia? It will, well, you know. :smallwink:

[Dr.Epic]

No. His wisdom isn't high enough and rangers don't even get that spell. Not to mention if Durkon couldn't do it, why do you think Belkar could?

[polipone]

Girard's kinsmen are all dead, so those of them who share an alignment should have met at the gates of afterlife (V's familicide should have created a bit of a queue there). Therefore they definitely know something is amiss.
As for the Resurrection scroll, I don't think the OOTS has such a scroll, but Durkon could scribe one if he had the feat. Clues point to the contrary, because they needed to buy scrolls in the past, but he may have picked it last time he got a level. (But are a dwarf's scrolls stone instead of paper?)

[Thalnawr]

It makes sense to have a cleric, but I wouldn't expect them to have one since they only trust family. Plus, Girard was anti-religion as per his jibe about Soon's "glorified petting zoo."
Well, the one they were trying to resurrect was in some kind of medium (or heavier) armor. It's possible he was a Draketooth family cleric, or at least that Durkon assumed he was. Although, he could have been a member of any of the martial classes.

[Fish]

Forget Girard's people. Who can resurrect Durkon?

[martianmister]

Forget Girard's people. Who can resurrect Durkon?

What? :smallconfused:

[Zubrowka74]

This could also mean Familicide victims can't be raised or that a true ressurection is needed.

[Ravian]

One posssibility for a Draketooth cleric is that even if they are all anti-religion, you can still follow a cause. Remember the first appearance of Banjo? I would think that defending the fabric of the universe would qualify as a cause.

[Fish]

What? :smallconfused:
Some time between now and the next Gate, Durkon is killed. We don't know when or by whom, only that Durkon returns to his homeland posthumously.

The same mechanics apply if Durkon gets resurrected: someone must do it, whose deity or alignment Durkon is sure to recognize.

[Porthos]

Girard's kinsmen are all dead, so those of them who share an alignment should have met at the gates of afterlife (V's familicide should have created a bit of a queue there). Therefore they definitely know something is amiss.

Do they? Why presume that the Chaotic afterlife is like the Lawful one?

Still, let's presume for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that they are all there* and know that Something Is Up, that still requires them to trust that the Random J Lawful Stranger that is suddenly trying to bring them back has their best interests at heart.

And, as we all know, the one singular defining characteristic of Clan Draketooth is how much they trust outsiders. :smallbiggrin:

* At the very least, the example of the ABD shows her going to her family immediately. And, if nothing else, this is one big family.



Some time between now and the next Gate, Durkon is killed. We don't know when or by whom, only that Durkon returns to his homeland posthumously.

The same mechanics apply if Durkon gets resurrected: someone must do it, whose deity or alignment Durkon is sure to recognize.

Ignoring the whole, "Team OOTS is carting around Durkon's dead body" possibility, there is more than one way someone can return to a homeland "posthumously" in D&D, you know. :smallwink:

[Vinyadan]

* At the very least, the example of the ABD shows her going to her family immediately. And, if nothing else, this is one big family.

What about Girardians ending up with the ABD's family? That long, awkward moment in which they learn that the guy attempting to resurrect them is the friend and companion of the monster who killed them?

[Porthos]

* At the very least, the example of the ABD shows her going to her family immediately. And, if nothing else, this is one big family.

What about Girardians ending up with the ABD's family? That long, awkward moment in which they learn that the guy attempting to resurrect them is the friend and companion of the monster who killed them?

I tend to doubt that personally as it doesn't appear that any of the Draketooths worshiped Tiamat and thus probably didn't go anywhere near where the ABD and family were hanging out. :smallwink:

[Tala Goodweed]

Thanks for the answer!

[DrBurr]

Some time between now and the next Gate, Durkon is killed. We don't know when or by whom, only that Durkon returns to his homeland posthumously.

The same mechanics apply if Durkon gets resurrected: someone must do it, whose deity or alignment Durkon is sure to recognize.

Durkon finally returns to his homeland post-humorously, so he'll die before going back their for good. He very well could go to the Dwarf lands and come back to human lands several times before he dies. So we might not see him die at all before Kraagor's gate

[Bogardan_Mage]

It makes sense to have a cleric, but I wouldn't expect them to have one since they only trust family. Plus, Girard was anti-religion as per his jibe about Soon's "glorified petting zoo."
Nothing stopping a Draketooth from taking levels in Cleric, and technically you can be a cleric of a "cause" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html). Alternatively, one of the clan could take Use Magical Device and get scrolls (as is kind of the premise of this thread, except with the Order instead of clan Draketooth?). Or there's probably hundreds of "no questions asked" clerics that don't need to be trustworthy. The point is it makes no sense for clan Draketooth to universally refuse resurrection. They don't care for the Sapphire Guard, but that's no reason to deny a Chaotic caster.

[Leolo]

Hello Mr. Draketooth, this is paul, the angel of ressurrection. I have a call to bring you back to life, from Mr. "Belkar Bitterleaf", a.k.a "the belkster", a.k.a "death's little helper", a chaotic evil ex-worshipper of banjo the clown.

Sure, that will help a lot. :smallyuk:

[Acanous]

Well, it's that or they leave it to Elan. Lol.
"Hello mr. Draketooth, this is Paul, the angel of ressurrection? We've got a Chaotic-Good mr. Elan (Same last name as Tarquin) attempting to rez you. Would you like to take the rez?
That'll go over Reeeeal smooooth.

In all fairness, Haley should be able to Use Magic Device and fake out the alignment detector. If she would need to, that is.
Not sure if she could fake out the name. Have to read more on UMD XD

[Mr. Pants]

:smallfrown: He already did it to me, simply so he could kill me again...

[Vahir]

They could just murder Elan, harvest the XP, so that the former could tell Girard and Co. about the situation, and be revived.

[Blisstake]

No. His wisdom isn't high enough and rangers don't even get that spell. Not to mention if Durkon couldn't do it, why do you think Belkar could?

The ressurrection failed because the caster was LG, and the victim thought it was a paladin, not because Durkon cast the spell wrong. It has been proven that Belkar couldn't cast the spell, but that's why he asked - Belkar has a different alignment

[Porthos]

Hello Mr. Draketooth, this is paul, the angel of ressurrection. I have a call to bring you back to life, from Mr. "Belkar Bitterleaf", a.k.a "the belkster", a.k.a "death's little helper", a chaotic evil ex-worshipper of banjo the clown.


"Hello mr. Draketooth, this is Paul, the angel of ressurrection? We've got a Chaotic-Good mr. Elan (Same last name as Tarquin) attempting to rez you. Would you like to take the rez?

To continue the theme...

Hello Mr. Draketooth, this is Paul, the angel of resurrection. I have a call here from one "Haley Starshine."

What?

Chaotic Good, sir. Well, -ish.

What was that? Let me check.

Thor, sir. Yes. The same one as that Durkon fellow who tried to resurrect you 10 minutes ago.

I'm sure that would go over just as well. :smallwink: