Soul Manifester Vs Soulcaster

[shadow_archmagi]

Why does everyone say that the psionic version of this dual-progression PrC from Magic of Incarnum (and a web supplement) is vastly superior? They appear to be the exact same class to my eyes.

[Big Fau]

Ardent entry makes the lost ML much less painful than the Arcane equivalent.

[Urpriest]

Also, IIRC the Incarnum feats related to Psionics have more cheese potential than those related to spells.

[Piggy Knowles]

I like it better for a few reasons...

1. Psionics, in general, is a system that is a little bit more multi-class friendly than Vancian-style casting, thanks to how Practiced Manifester interacts with psionic classes. This is especially true with the ardent, but it works for psions, wilders and psywars, too.

2. Similarly, Psionic Investment as an ability is more useful than Arcane Investment. Boosting caster level and DC is nice, but boosting manifester level means you raise the amount you can augment by.

3. Azure Talent, Midnight Augmentation, Psycarnum Crystal and Psycarnum Infusion are all very cool psionic/incarnum feats.

4. Both psychic warriors/ardents and totemists are really good at creating and augmenting natural attacks. This makes for a pretty nice combination.

Plus, I think the flavor of psionics meshes better with incarnum than arcane magic does.

EDIT: Ninja'd, twice!

[Coidzor]

Also, IIRC the Incarnum feats related to Psionics have more cheese potential than those related to spells.

And the powers have more cheese potential than the spells too, IIRC, though that's less relevant if one is a soulmanifester, I think.

[Psyren]

I like it better for a few reasons...

1. Psionics, in general, is a system that is a little bit more multi-class friendly than Vancian-style casting, thanks to how Practiced Manifester interacts with psionic classes. This is especially true with the ardent, but it works for psions, wilders and psywars, too.

2. Similarly, Psionic Investment as an ability is more useful than Arcane Investment. Boosting caster level and DC is nice, but boosting manifester level means you raise the amount you can augment by.

3. Azure Talent, Midnight Augmentation, Psycarnum Crystal and Psycarnum Infusion are all very cool psionic/incarnum feats.

4. Both psychic warriors/ardents and totemists are really good at creating and augmenting natural attacks. This makes for a pretty nice combination.

Plus, I think the flavor of psionics meshes better with incarnum than arcane magic does.

EDIT: Ninja'd, twice!

(2) and (3) are the big ones here.

For (2): Boosting ML is much more powerful than boosting CL, because powers tend to either be uncapped or have higher caps. But it goes even beyond that - while CL applies only to the standard stuff (damage, duration, range ability to penetrate SR etc.), ML has even more applications - for instance, boosting the CL of a spell doesn't enhance your ability to apply powerful metamagics to it, but boosting ML does. Also, Soul Manifesters get to double-dip - Psionic Investment raises the DC of your spells and raises their ML, which further allows you to raise the DC again by augmenting - i.e. you can raise the DC twice.

Soul Manifesters can also access their higher chakras faster than Soulcasters, because they get all the "Open Chakra" spells into one augmentable power, rather than having them split in 3 like spellcasters. For instance, raise your ML and your SM can open Throat and Waist long before a Soulcaster could (A Soulcaster must wait until at least 17th level, whereas a Soul Manifester with sufficient optimization can access theirs up to 10 levels before - though in practice it will work out closer to 4 or 5, which is still a significant discount in terms of time played.)


For (3): Psycarnum Infusion and Midnight Augmentation are extraordinarily powerful. The former in particular is useful because it lets you max out a useful feat without having to tie any essentia up in it. giving you more freedom to allocate your limited supply elsewhere.


Ardent is the most commonly mentioned combo with SM - this is due to their unique method of power access, as well as their Wis synergy (what little there is) with Incarnate. Personally though, I think Wilder has the biggest potential (both flavor- and crunch-wise) with the class, even with the potential for giving up class features.

[Chronos]

3. Azure Talent, Midnight Augmentation, Psycarnum Crystal and Psycarnum Infusion are all very cool psionic/incarnum feats.Actually, Psycarnum Crystal is a pretty bad feat (probably the worst in the book). All it does is give you one essentia, with no other benefits, and it only does that conditionally. By comparison, any incarnum feat at all will give you an unconditional point of essentia and also give you a way to potentially use it, and Bonus Essentia will usually give you two points of essentia. The only way Psycarnum Crystal would ever be worthwhile would be if you had already somehow managed to take every single incarnum feat for which you qualify (and do so before epic levels, when Epic Essenita becomes available).

The other psi/incarnum feats are pretty good, though.

[shadow_archmagi]

Midnight Augmentation, Psycarnum Infusion

Wait, am I reading this right? I'm not super familiar with Psionics *or* Incarnum.


Midnight Augmentation reduces the cost of Augmentation by the amount of Essentia that I put in. Three questions:

1. Is augmentation a single total? IE: If I have a power that says "For every 4 points you augment it by you gain an extra Psionic Bowler Hat" and I want to gain two extra Psionic Bowler Hats, and I've put 2 points of Essentia into Midnight Augmentation, would it cost 6 points or 4?

2. Does metamagic factor into that? Maximize says that it raises the power point cost of the spell, which suggests that Midnight wouldn't help with it.

3. Does the reduced cost mean I can get a stronger spell for the same price, or just the same spell at a lower price? IE: If I'm level 5, and my Energy Bolt does 1d6 per power point, and I spend 5 power points, do I deal 7d6, since Midnight contributed two "Free" points over and above what I actually spent?


---

Psycarnum Infusion: This seems pretty self explanatory. Pick one thing that I'd normally put Essentia into, and then sacrifice my focus to treat it as if I had put all the Essentia into it for a round. Two questions:

1. If I already have Psychic Focus, could I start my turn by expending it for Psycarnum, then spend a move action to regain my Psychic Focus, then expend that to Psycarnum something else, and thus gain have TWO class features/feats/soulmelds operating at full power for a turn? (Heck, if I had a Psicrystal, I could use its psychic focus too...)

2. What are the best things to use this on? Are there any feats or class features that it'd be really good to have lots of essentia in for just one round? (I'm looking at Ardent/Incarnate for my entry, simply because their fluff seems pretty compatible and also because the community says they're the best combo)

[Psyren]

I'll break your queries up for readability.

Midnight Augmentation:

Wait, am I reading this right? I'm not super familiar with Psionics *or* Incarnum.


Midnight Augmentation reduces the cost of Augmentation by the amount of Essentia that I put in. Three questions:

1. Is augmentation a single total? IE: If I have a power that says "For every 4 points you augment it by you gain an extra Psionic Bowler Hat" and I want to gain two extra Psionic Bowler Hats, and I've put 2 points of Essentia into Midnight Augmentation, would it cost 6 points or 4?

MoI is notorious for its poor editing, and this feat is unfortunately one of the casualties. The feat has ambiguous wording; pay close attention, because the answer to your other questions depends on the answer to this one.

Interpretation 1:The reduction applies only to the total augmented cost of the power, not to each specific instance of augmentation. So if you have apply this feat to the Defensive Precognition power and invest 2 essentia, you choose how high you want to augment the power, then subtract 2 PP from that total cost. For example - I want a total of +3 to my AC and saves, which would normally cost me 7 PP (1 base + 3 + 3) - with this interpretation of MA, it instead costs me 5 PP total (the 7 above, minus 2.)

Interpretation 2: The reduction applies to each instance of augmentation in the power. Going back to Defensive Precognition, if you invest the same 2 essentia, the reduction is now 1 base + (3-2) + (3-2) = 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 PP total. Effectively, the power now costs a single PP to augment. Note that this result is much cheaper than the first option, and gets even cheaper still as I gain levels - at level 15, I can get +15 to AC and +15 to saves with the same 2-point essentia investment. Or I could get +11 to both and make it a swift action.

The former is the much less abusive interpretation (while still being worth a feat.) If you don't want your DM to ban psionics, incarnum or both, I strongly suggest you go with that one. But the latter is useful for TO discussions or extremely high-powered games.


2. Does metamagic factor into that? Maximize says that it raises the power point cost of the spell, which suggests that Midnight wouldn't help with it.

It does not apply to metapsionics, but remember that the ultimate limit to how much you can spend on a power is your manifester level. If you make augmenting a power cheaper (even using the less abusive interpretation 1 above), that gives you more room to add in costly metapsionics without hitting that limit. For instance, if your ML were 15 and you wanted to Twin an Astral Construct, the most powerful one you could double normally would be an AC V. With MA and an essentia investment of 2, you could instead be Twinning AC VI (again, using interpretation 1 - under interpretation 2, you could instead Twin AC IX at level 15.)


3. Does the reduced cost mean I can get a stronger spell for the same price, or just the same spell at a lower price? IE: If I'm level 5, and my Energy Bolt does 1d6 per power point, and I spend 5 power points, do I deal 7d6, since Midnight contributed two "Free" points over and above what I actually spent?

Both scenarios are possible. I assume based on your example that you have 2 essentia invested in the feat; this would allow you to deal 7d6 with your ray by spending 5 PP (more power, same price: scenario 1), or you could deal 5d6 by spending the lower cost of 3PP (same power, lower price: scenario 2.) Your only restrictions are that you have to pick a single power to be affected by MA, and that once the essentia is invested it stays locked in. And of course, you can't spend more on a single manifestation than your ML.

Powers that augment for 1PP are the one place Interpretation 2 is less powerful - because the minimum cost to augment a power will always be 1, you get no benefit to the feat. But there are enough other powers out there that would make I2 broken that again I suggest you stick with I1.



----


Psycarnum Infusion:


Psycarnum Infusion: This seems pretty self explanatory. Pick one thing that I'd normally put Essentia into, and then sacrifice my focus to treat it as if I had put all the Essentia into it for a round. Two questions:

1. If I already have Psychic Focus, could I start my turn by expending it for Psycarnum, then spend a move action to regain my Psychic Focus, then expend that to Psycarnum something else, and thus gain have TWO class features/feats/soulmelds operating at full power for a turn? (Heck, if I had a Psicrystal, I could use its psychic focus too...)

Expending psionic focus does not require an action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm), so yes; you can power as many soulmelds or feats as you have foci to spare.


2. What are the best things to use this on? Are there any feats or class features that it'd be really good to have lots of essentia in for just one round? (I'm looking at Ardent/Incarnate for my entry, simply because their fluff seems pretty compatible and also because the community says they're the best combo)

There is no "best" option - pick your favorite soulmelds/feats and use it on that.

I personally recommend using it on feats before soulmelds, simply because once essentia is allocated to a feat it cannot be reallocated elsewhere (whereas soulmelds and items don't have this restriction.) So having the ability to leave a feat empty, then treat it as if it were full to the brim when you need it without tying up any of your essentia can be handy (e.g. maxing out Cerulean Will just before you need to make a Will Save.)

But using it on, say, your Silvertongue Mask before making a crucial Diplomacy check can be worthwhile also. It really just depends.

[eggs]

Psycarnum Infusion plays very nicely with Azure Talent for Psi-gish endurance.

You basically have an unending trickle of PP that can be invested in cheap but powerful self-buffs like Expansion, Claws of the Beast or Soulbound Weapon, or that can go into occasional-use utility powers like Dimension Hop, Levitate or Body Adjustment.

[Psyren]

Which is another example of the book's poor wording. It shouldn't be possible for you to get free PP out of Azure Talent multiple times per day, but the RAW could go either way.

[eggs]

Which is another example of the book's poor wording. It shouldn't be possible for you to get free PP out of Azure Talent multiple times per day, but the RAW could go either way.
I'm curious what you mean. Azure Talent explicitly doesn't allow the number of invested essentia to be altered, but Psycarnum Infusion's phrasing goes to lengths to establish that it doesn't alter investments, but rather treats them as if they had been altered.

Unless the case against it is a longshot argument based on the grammatical mood of PsyInfusion, I'm not seeing ambiguity in RAW, though I do see a potential dispute in whether the combination is more a "cute trick" or "rules-lawyering/system abuse."

[Psyren]

I'm curious what you mean. Azure Talent explicitly doesn't allow the number of invested essentia to be altered, but Psycarnum Infusion's phrasing goes to lengths to establish that it doesn't alter investments, but rather treats them as if they had been altered.

I know that; that's not what I have a problem with.

Incarnum feats are intended to provide a fixed benefit, decided at the beginning of the day. This is evidenced by the fact that you can only put essentia in them when you shape your soulmelds, and that the essentia cannot be withdrawn once invested.

But Azure Talent is different from every other incarnum feat. Rather than providing you a static bonus to {something}, it gives you a finite resource - power points, which can be spent, and then this trick used to regain. By allowing PI to give you those PP every time it's used, you're effectively stacking the benefit with every activation - something that no other incarnum feat lets you do. It would be like letting Cerulean Will's will save bonus increase every time you used Psycarnum Infusion on it - you'd have no incentive not to ramp up the loop as often as you wanted.

Even something as simple as pouring the free points into Bestow Power (targeting yourself) would result in infinite recharge of PP. That is clearly not the feat's intent.

[shadow_archmagi]

Query: Can Psycarnum Infusion be used with Psionic Investment? (IE: Instead of once a day getting to buff a power by investing essentia ahead of time, just use Psycarnum to pretend you'd invested essentia whenever you cast a power)

Query 2:

"If you spend 4 additional power points, this power’s duration increases to 1 hour per level.

In addition, for every 4 additional power points you spend, this power improves the weapon’s enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls by 1. "


Is this second effect a bonus,as suggested by the words "In addition" or an alternative? That is, would it cost 9 points or 5 to get a +2 weapon for an hour per level?

[eggs]

That is clearly not the feat's intent.
In that case, I agree completely. That's the part I was hemming and hawing about either being a clever trick or filthy RAW abuse, depending on the group.

Query: Can Psycarnum Infusion be used with Psionic Investment? (IE: Instead of once a day getting to buff a power by investing essentia ahead of time, just use Psycarnum to pretend you'd invested essentia whenever you cast a power)
RAW yes, but this is very similar to the above Azure Talent/PsyInfusion scenario: the RAW aren't necessarily the rulings you should use.


Is this second effect a bonus,as suggested by the words "In addition" or an alternative? That is, would it cost 9 points or 5 to get a +2 weapon for an hour per level?
The "addition" includes the PP spent on extending the duration. So for 9 PP you can increase the bonus to +3 and extend the power to hours/level.
Look at Psionic Charm (which has options and and addition) for a better illustration.

[shadow_archmagi]

What's a good low level power with a fortitude save? It'd be nice to have all three bases covered.

NOTE: Currently I'm looking at the Creation, Guardian, and Corruption&Madness mantles, so suggestions for powers that fit with those thematically would be appreciated.

[Urpriest]

Personally though, I think Wilder has the biggest potential (both flavor- and crunch-wise) with the class, even with the potential for giving up class features.

Now that others are still posting in this thread, something that bugs me: can you explain what you mean by this? A Soul Manifester can't pick up enough Wilder levels to get more than Wild Surge +3, at which point you're even with Overchannel. You've got +2 between 3 and 8 but that's pretty much it really. And I can't think of anything other than Wild Surge that's all that synergistic here.

[Psyren]

What's a good low level power with a fortitude save? It'd be nice to have all three bases covered.

Early on your best bets are Crystalstorm and Energy Lance; the DCs can't be scaled up though, so consider dropping them later.


Also, what changes should be made for converting Bands of Steel (Spell compendium) into a Psionic ability?

Don't - instead use Constrictor's Touch from Secrets of Sarlona. (The name is misleading, it's not touch-range.) This one's also a decent choice for your first question.


Now that others are still posting in this thread, something that bugs me: can you explain what you mean by this? A Soul Manifester can't pick up enough Wilder levels to get more than Wild Surge +3, at which point you're even with Overchannel. You've got +2 between 3 and 8 but that's pretty much it really. And I can't think of anything other than Wild Surge that's all that synergistic here.

Why would you want to surge above +3? Your chances of enervation become nontrivial at that point.

Yes, Overchannel can also get you to +3... 8 levels later than Wild Surge, and you take quite a bit of damage for the privilege.

I say Wilder has the most potential because Soul Manifester gets you both UPD and UMD.

[Urpriest]

Why would you want to surge above +3? Your chances of enervation become nontrivial at that point.

Yes, Overchannel can also get you to +3... 8 levels later than Wild Surge, and you take quite a bit of damage for the privilege.

I say Wilder has the most potential because Soul Manifester gets you both UPD and UMD.

The only way you're getting Wild Surge +3 before Overchannel +3 is if you delay Soul Manifester to near the end of the build, at which point you're not really picking up level appropriate stuff from it.

As for UPD and UMD, you don't need all that much Cha to be effective at either, especially with Soulmelds boosting your checks.

[eggs]

Why would you want to surge above +3? Your chances of enervation become nontrivial at that point.
With Quick Recovery, it's 1 PP at the cost of an expected .55 PP. Even leaving aside the associated increase in the power of the manifestation, it's a sound choice.

The exception is if your Wilder doesn't have Quick Recovery. But that's the sort of off-chance as a Druid without Natural Spell.

[Psyren]

The only way you're getting Wild Surge +3 before Overchannel +3 is if you delay Soul Manifester to near the end of the build, at which point you're not really picking up level appropriate stuff from it.

Aren't you? The benefits of Soul Manifester stack with all your regular goodies; Psionic Investment 1 is just as useful at ECL 9 as it is at ECL 6. As for the chakra binds, you can always open the ones you want with feats if you really need them, and reform those feats away later once you get them from the class - or better yet, just use the Open Chakra power. And the capstone is nice but you can live without it until later levels.


As for UPD and UMD, you don't need all that much Cha to be effective at either, especially with Soulmelds boosting your checks.

Since you can neither take 10 nor 20 on it, every point helps stave off a bad roll. And with other melds like Silvertongue Mask you become a great face too.

[shadow_archmagi]

Just discovered Sensory Gloom- Seems like it'd be a snap to convince my DM that it's thematically appropriate to Madness & Corruption, and it's a fort save at level 1 with an extremely potent effect-

Blindness, deafness, numbness, or taste&scent. Blindness is technically just extreme nearsightedness- you get concealment if adjacent, total concealment if far away, but total concealment means no worries about ranged attacks (and if you failed a fort save you probably don't want to close to melee)

Numbness also has the side effect that enemies have to make a balance check vs falling over, and another one to stand up. It's a very low DC but you never know.

You can augment to target multiple senses, and so Midnight Augmentation means I can always always pick two.

Honestly, given the number of wizards the DM normally uses (Nigh zero) there won't be many targets for this power. It'll probably see more use as a hilarious prank against the party rogue than anything else. "Why is this food so bland?" he'll say, rising to stand, and then immediately toppling over.