Best Sor//Wiz Spells at each level

[Emmerlaus]

Ok, I need to find out the best TWO spell, at each level, who are the more useful...

Not just for a sor//wiz, I mean for ALL situations. You know, the spells we should pick as soon as possible like Disintegrate...

AND MOST OF ALL:

They most NOT be on a Cleric spell list... Except for the domain spell list. I mean the general cleric spell list.

Its a complicated request... I hope I will be able to get help on this, Im very confused about it.

[eggs]

These are spells that are being added to a Cleric's spell list, right?

I'd say in terms of versatility and in covering the Cleric's deficiencies:

1-Silent Image
1-Benign Transposition
2-Alter Self
2-Minor Image
3-Suggestion
3-Anticipate Teleport
4-Polymorph
4-Celerity
5-Lesser Planar Binding
5-Teleport
6-Planar Binding
6-Contingency
7-Simulacrum
7-Limited Wish
8-Greater Planar Binding
8-Polymorph Any Object
9-Shapechange
9-Timestop

[blackjack217]

Planer Binding line? Its a good spell line, but the planar ally line is rather similar. I'm not sure if the differences are enough of an advantage to make it the best choice.

[Randomguy]

Planer Binding line? Its a good spell line, but the planar ally line is rather similar. I'm not sure if the differences are enough of an advantage to make it the best choice.

Agreed.

For level 5 I'd say overland flight, for level 6 I'd probably say Veil and for level 8 I'd probably say Mind Blank, or possibly Moment of Persience.

[mucco]

At 2, Glitterdust/Web instead of Minor Image; at 3, Haste/Slow instead of Suggestion.

Otherwise, the above suggestions are good.

[eggs]

Planer Binding line? Its a good spell line, but the planar ally line is rather similar. I'm not sure if the differences are enough of an advantage to make it the best choice.
Planar Ally has strict limitations that don't apply to Planar Binding.

Want a specific ability, like Dominate Monster or Astral Projection 8 levels early? With Planar Ally, you probably aren't getting it (requires alignment correlation between character and summon, as well as putting the monster selection on the DM's side of the table rather than your own), and if you do get the appropriate monster, you have to shill out thousands of GP and a handful of XP for the creature's services.

Compare to Binding where:
-There's no cost, beside Magic Circles and debuffs.
-You select the monster.
-There's no alignment restriction on the monster.

Planar Binding gives you every Outsider's abilities on demand; Planar Ally lets you ask your DM to maybe let you pay an arm and a leg for a favor sometime.

[Particle_Man]

What books are allowed? Phb only?

[Emmerlaus]

Does Create Magic Tatoo good? I heard it was...

I heard Glitterdust isnt much use at higher level, as its easy to boost the Hide Skills and such.

As for Teleport, easy to have items that does that no? I belive Cape of Mounteback give one per day teleport...

Benigh transposition... I like Trick Transposition later and have a high bluff check. It can be very useful. :sabine:

Is Anticipate Teleport THAT useful? Yeah, it CAN be useful, I know that but more at higher level no?

Heres the list I made so far ( I will adjust it of course, with your advice)

PS: the character is having the dragonblood subtype, explaining the two spell from Dragon Magic

1- True Strike (with Imbue Spell (not the right name but thats what it does) for other character to cast True Strike as a spelllike ability)
1- Nerveskitter
2- Create Magic Tatoo
2- Heroics
3- Dolorous Blow
3- Primal Instinct (Dragon Magic)
4- Trick Transposition
4- Voice of the Dragon
5- Teleport
5- Blink, Greater
6- Contingency
6- Primal Speed (Dragon Magic)
7- Bite of the Werebear
7- Delayed Fireball (to go with Time Stop)
8- Polymorph any Object
8- Mind Blank
9- Time Stop
9- Shapechange

What do you think?

[Emmerlaus]

What books are allowed? Phb only?

All books but not Dragon magazine and no parallel setting like Eberron or Fearun

[JackRackham]

I think you're a little off. AFB right now, so no specifics, but clerics have all the buff spells they need already. I'd go mostly for control and utility spells with maybe a couple low-level direct-damage spells in case you need to do damage (scorching ray?). But, grease, glitterdust, fly, teleport, maybe some from the polymorph school and some others.

[DeAnno]

If you will be up in melee as a Cleric type DPR doesn't get any better for its spell level than Combust (2nd, SC). Even with no metamagic it does an average of 45 damage at CL 10.

Also relevant in melee is Shivering Touch (3rd, Frostburn) for 3d6 Dex damage

I would strongly suggest getting Moment of Prescience at 8th level somehow, either over Mind Blank or if you don't want to be involved in PAO shenanigans.

[Vizzerdrix]

0th- Sonic Snap: Uncommon Damage, ranged, has a debuff rider effect and makes great meta magic fodder (I'm looking at you, Fell Drain!).

Hmm... I wonder if 1 sonic damage is enough to break a glass vial?

[Chronos]

I heard Glitterdust isnt much use at higher level, as its easy to boost the Hide Skills and such.It takes pretty high optimization on Hide to be able to shrug off a Glitterdust. The bigger problem is knowing that you even need to cast it to begin with: With an even moderately optimized Hide, you won't even know they're there until it's too late.

[Emmerlaus]

It takes pretty high optimization on Hide to be able to shrug off a Glitterdust. The bigger problem is knowing that you even need to cast it to begin with: With an even moderately optimized Hide, you won't even know they're there until it's too late.

Thats quite right. I feel the same, thats why I havent put it on my list. Fearie Fire is so much better anyway... too bad its a Druid spell however.

I would be more tempted to make a ranged cleric build however, like those made with Cloistered Cleric. Thats why I wiill switch Nerveskitter with Arrow Mind and Bite of the Werebear with Mordenkainen agnificient Mansion (only for the safest place to rest. Thats priceless because I dont know about you but it seem Gm love to target you when you sleep) or maybe Arcane Sight, Greater.

I will also switch Dolorous Blow with Anticipate Teleportation. Too useful at higher level to pass on the occasion to learn it.

[FMArthur]

Nerveskitter and Benign Transposition are the main 1st-level spells that remain useful in combat at later levels for me. Really, I wouldn't even start preparing Nerveskitter until the other 1st-level spells' offensive utility has diminished, but once you can spare the slots, going first is a good thing to aim for. Shock and Awe is sometimes good when the rest of your team can mop the floor with flat-footed opponents. It's a way to save higher level slots while still getting a highly influential first turn.

[Nich_Critic]

The big selling point of glitterdust is that it outright negates invisibility, for a second level slot and, blinding non-magical enemies remains pretty strong for a long time. Although, faerie fire probably is stronger, and I suppose it gets less useful once permanent true seeing is an option.

[eggs]

This sounds more specific than you were first letting on.
Just so I'm clear, this looks like you're asking advice for a specifically melee-focused cleric without turn undead, specifically geared toward the level 11-13 range (where Glitterdust DCs will be low, where a threatening enemy or two might not teleport and where using a level 4 spell to do what could be done with a level 1 slot isn't a crippling strategic decision). Are any of these off-base, and is there any other relevant information we should have?

On your questions:

Create Magic Tattoo is a cheap CL boost. It's a small boost, so I wouldn't use it, but if you're looking to build toward specific tricks, like edging Holy Word CLs up without Consumptive field abuse, it can be worthwhile.

Glitterdust is a good spell at any level (no-save Invisibility negation is something that only gets better as invisibility becomes more common), but at low levels, its major functions can be replicated by Invisibility Purge and other save-or-loses (they may not be as effective individually, but they lower Glitterdust's marginal benefits), and at higher levels, Clerics can get the spell easily via Summon Monster.

True Strike is a big bonus but a really weak effect, considering its action cost and how even quickened, it only applies to one attack per round (the one that should be landing anyway).

Translocation Trick is better than Benign Transposition, but it's much more expensive in spell slots, and in opportunity costs for other spells learned. Benign Transposition costs a True Casting or an Enlarge Person, while Translocation Trick costs Polymorph, Celerity or Greater Mirror Image - all of which are much more useful for this kind of gish. If you just prefer Translocation trick, that's fine, but it doesn't compare especially favorably.

Heroics is a good call. It opens lots of abilities that aren't available to the Cleric by default in a low-level slot.

Greater Blink and Bite of the Werebear have awesome effects, but their short durations and standard action casting times mean that you'll need to be able to cast them without interfering with your attack routine, if you want to get them out in combat. Contingency can help a bit, as can metamagic rods of quicken, but if you get this sort of spell, you'll probably also need to toss in Arcane Spellsurge (not that that's a poor option for a gish anyway).

Dolorous Blow, Primal Instinct, Primal Speed and Mind Blank have effects that are redundant with existing cleric spells.

[Emmerlaus]

To eggs: Wow... That was REALLY smart of you!

Ok, I decided to do a cleric variant called Arcane Disciple... It have a feature called "Arcane to Divine"...

What does it do is bassicly given me one free sor//wiz spell by level (including Bards spells but I know their value and didnt include them, as I want to know the best spell from sor//wiz)

Thats why Im asking that. I dont know many cleric build but I know they are good in melee thanks to a few spell like Righterous Might and Divine Favor to make the base attack equal to caster level.

And yeah, The original version or the "Arcane Disciple" have no turn undead, which is sucking big time because I cant use Divine Metamagic. I wanted to know which spell would be the best without it in case he dont allow me to have it, as I want to adjust the class (with GM permission) so I MIGHT get turn undead if he accept. But for now, Im concentrating on the fact he wont accept it.

The reason why I use Primal Speed and Primal Instinct is because they last 24 hours, one of them give a +5 bonus to Initiative and the other a nice boost of Reflexes and a +10 to all speeds (the character is dragonborn so it can fly)

I know Nerveskitter is good but those two spell together give Uncanny dodge feature to the user, which is awesome.

[Emmerlaus]

Here is the original version of the class, made by Wizard of the Coast (its a real class made by D&D):

http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/class_arcane_disciple.htm

[Emmerlaus]

LOL I knew that if I mentionned this, we would stop answering to my thread...

Anyway, thanks for all your imput, it was very useful :)

[HunterOfJello]

0 - Prestidigitation
1 - Extend Prestidigitation
2 - Silent Still Prestidigitation
3 - Silent Still Enlarge Prestidigitation
4 - Extend Silent Still Enlarge Prestidigitation
5 - Extend Enlarge Chain Prestidigitation
6 - Extend Quicken Prestidigitation
7 - Extend Enlarge Silent Still Chain Prestidigitation
8 - Extend Enlarge Silent Still Quicken Prestidigitation
9 - Dominate Monster



Step 1: Dominate several awesome monsters
Step 2: Send monsters to kill your enemies
Step 2: Dance around casting prestidigitation on your enemies while your monsters destroy them

[Emmerlaus]

0 - Prestidigitation
1 - Extend Prestidigitation
2 - Silent Still Prestidigitation
3 - Silent Still Enlarge Prestidigitation
4 - Extend Silent Still Enlarge Prestidigitation
5 - Extend Enlarge Chain Prestidigitation
6 - Extend Quicken Prestidigitation
7 - Extend Enlarge Silent Still Chain Prestidigitation
8 - Extend Enlarge Silent Still Quicken Prestidigitation
9 - Dominate Monster



Step 1: Dominate several awesome monsters
Step 2: Send monsters to kill your enemies
Step 2: Dance around casting prestidigitation on your enemies while your monsters destroy them


Not helpful but very funny LOL :smallbiggrin:

[Randomguy]

If you're looking for something to replace nerveskitter, try grease. You can use it to make people drop weapons, wands and potions even at higher levels, unless their saving throws are really good.

[Bard for Kicks]

0 Prestigitation DUH
0 Amaneusis (way of steady gp income)
1 Benign Transposition
1 Magic Missile
2 Entice Gift
2 Baleful Transposition (if you can fly and the opponent can't...well...win!)
3 Major Image
3 Glibness (as bard)
4 Polymorph
4 Wings of Flurry (it. is. ridiculous.)
5 Draconic Polymorph
5 Spell Matrix, lesser
6 Antimagic Field
6 Greater Shout (as bard)
7 Forcecage
7 Planar Bubble (circumstantial, but if you are from plane of fire, well things around take constant damage. woot)
8 Polymorph Any Object
8 Greater Celerity (it may be worth it...)
9 Wish
9 Timestop

[Snowbluff]

7th level has Simulacrum. With a good CL, a Thought Bottle, and some gold you'll never need a party again. Need a Cleric? Make a Solar to do it for you! :smallamused:

[Emmerlaus]

If you're looking for something to replace nerveskitter, try grease. You can use it to make people drop weapons, wands and potions even at higher levels, unless their saving throws are really good.

Oh, good point!

Then lets adjust the list of spells now:

1- Grease
1- Arrowmind
2- Heroics
2- Create Magic Tatoo ( I want that +1 spell caster level and Comsumpitive Field and psionic are banned in my GM game so I dont know how to increase it easily)
3- Primal Instinct
3- Anticipate Teleportation
4- Voice of the Dragon
4- Wing of Flurry (no maximum 6D by caster level? A force effect?! Count me in!)
5- Teleport
5- Polymorph
6- Contingency
6- Disintegrate
7- Arcane Sight, Greater
7- Bite of the Werebear
8- Mind Blank (theres equivalence in cleric spell? If so, I dont know it)
8- Polymorph Any Object
9- Time Stop
9- Shapechange

I think the spell list is better now :smallsmile:

[Emmerlaus]

Simulacrum and Draconic Polymorph... Dont know those spell... Have to do a bit of research.

Baleful Transposition... I like it a lot! But better then a caster level increase? I wonder... featherfall is so much easy to get.

Glibness is awesome... But better then Voice of the Dragon? I added the spell Voice of the Dragon because it was also giving a suggestion spell. It also boost by +10 Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate... making a good spell for a second face.

Forcecage? Really worth it? I mean cleric spell are good enough to deal with incorporal no?



4 Wings of Flurry (it. is. ridiculous.)

I checked that Spell... IT ITS SOO GREAT !!!! And its a force spell to boot! Im removing Polymorph for that spell...

[Tyger]

On the Baleful Transposition trick, it doesn't work like that - the text of the spell specifies such - no flying up and then switching places. There are ways around that, but they require a bit of cheese and a lot of DM forgiveness. Add in the save on it and it isn't that great a spell.

For level 6, I can't believe that no one has suggested Disintegrate. Combat uses aside, it is marvelous for all sorts of utility as well. Need to bring down a bridge? Blast open a wall? Create instant pits? Take out the mast/rudder of a ship without destroying the whole thing? Eliminate the ground under something instantly? All available to you with this one green ray of death. And it has the added benefit of being not too shabby for combat as well.

[Emmerlaus]

Disintegrate DONT work that way... I just readed the spell description. Sure, it does a lot of damage but then again, it wont makes holes.

Going back to the drawing board ten , sigh...

[eggs]

Disintegrate DONT work that way... I just readed the spell description. Sure, it does a lot of damage but then again, it wont makes holes.

Going back to the drawing board ten , sigh...

"When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field."

[Snowbluff]

Simulacrum and Draconic Polymorph... Dont know those spell... Have to do a bit of research.



Simulacrum, an Illusion spell, lets you make a simulacrum (duh!) of a creature. You can select a creature of up to twice your CL in HD. The simulacrum has 1/2 the creatures HD and abilities adjusted accordingly. They don't heal (they are gossamer, snow, and dreams, after all), and repairing them is expensive.

Make Solars. They have Regeneration, so you won't normally have to repair them. In addition they have cleric spells (any sane DM will nerf their CL to that of a Cleric of their HD).

EDIT: Also, you can use the larger HD versions for making Simulacrum. For example you can copy a 24 HD Solar in stead of a 22 one if your CL is high enough.

[Emmerlaus]

"When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field."

Exactly, only 10 foot cube. And while useful, its too much high level to be called a utility spell.

[Leon]

Its a Combat Spell with Utility value

[Emmerlaus]

Its a Combat Spell with Utility value

Thats more like it LOL

Disintegrate is so powerful... I think I will switch Primal Speed with Disintegrate. I can always make a item that gives me Primal Speed later in game once a day. Since it a 24 hours spell, wont cost as much.

[Emmerlaus]

Heres the revised spell list again:

1- Ghost Sound (lv0)
2- Prestigitation (lv0)
3- Nerveskitter (lv1)
4- Begnin Transposition (lv1)
5- Heroics (lv2)
6- Grease (lv2)
7- Haste (lv3)
8- Anticipate Teleportation (lv3)
9- Voice of the Dragon (lv4)
10- Celerity (lv4)
11- Teleport (lv5)
12- Primal Instinct (lv5)
13- Contingency (lv6)
14- Disintegrate (lv6)
15- Arcane Sight, Greater (lv7)
16- Ironguard (lv7)
17- Bite of the Werebear (lv7)
18- Mind Blank (lv8)

[rot42]

Glibness is just that good. The Sense Motive modifier for "almost too incredible to consider" is only +20, and Glibness gets around that pesky "immune to mind-affecting" that so many creatures have. Voice of the Dragon is great, but not top 2 material.

Sadly, Arcane Spellsurge (DrM) specifies "arcane" and Arcane Fusion (CM) specifies "sorcerer". Those spells are worth building around, though.

Some spells to consider for pumping an arcane caster level (check descriptions, not all stack with each other or Magic Tattoo):
* Adept Spirit (MoI 98); 1st lvl, requires incarnum
* Harmonic Chorus (SpC 110); 2nd lvl, requires concentration, but great for a cohort or familiar (should you find one of those).
* Mystic Surge (PHB II 120); 4th lvl, Standard action for +1 CL once.
* Spell Enhancer (SpC 198); 4th lvl, Swift action for +2 CL once.
* Suffer the Flesh (MoE 103); 2nd lvl, Swift action for up to +5 for one round; costs Con and expensive material component.
* Metamagic Vigor (CM 45); feat, +1 CL for using the same metamagic repeatedly; Invisible (Cityscape) can be applied usefully to many spells for +0.

[Phaederkiel]

I am sorry, but isn´t Anticipate teleportation 4th level?

I think the list should look like this:

1 nerveskitter / minor image
1 benign transposition

2 Baleful transposition (too useful not to have both...
2 Heroics (now that is a great spell...use with pearls of power)

3 Haste (as you will not get it via time domain)
3 Greater Snakes swiftness (if you have a lot of beatsticks in the party

3 Fly (if you start at a high level, overland travel might substitute. If not, it is needed)
3 Glibness (if allowed, take it. its pure cheddar)

4 celerity
4 Anticipate teleportation (rememb er those transpositions? make your enemy come back later...)


I do not know enough about higher levels...so i stop here.

[Emmerlaus]

I am sorry, but isn´t Anticipate teleportation 4th level?

In Magic Compendium, its listed as a lev.3 spell.




2 Baleful transposition (too useful not to have both...


At lower level, this spell is so much worth it. But not at higher level, thats why Im not picking it.




3 Haste (as you will not get it via time domain)
3 Greater Snakes swiftness (if you have a lot of beatsticks in the party


The extra attack from those two spell DONT stack, is written in Snake Swiftness description of the spell.



3 Glibness (if allowed, take it. its pure cheddar)


ONLY IF its allowed by my GM. Im not sure yet, thats why I havent pick it up in my spell list automaticly. Thats why I picked Voice of the Dragon, who my GM will think its more balanced and mean I can be a face for the party from time to time.



4 Anticipate teleportation (remember those transpositions? make your enemy come back later...)

Could have been good... if it didnt work on something teleporting OUTSIDE of the area. And since the area is 5f/level from the creature touched, it sem unrevealant.

[Emmerlaus]

Just a question... With Snake Switfness, does it make me able to cast a spell? I might replace Create Magic Tatoo with it if thats the case...

Theres was a error in the spell list, as Polymorph is NOT a lv.5 spell. I changed it back a little and putted Greater Blink as the level 5 spell.

[Emmerlaus]

I want to thanks everybody for their help... heres the final spell list:

1- Ghost Sound (lv0)
2- Prestigitation (lv0)
3- Nerveskitter (lv1)
4- Begnin Transposition (lv1)
5- Heroics (lv2)
6- Grease (lv2)
7- Haste (lv3)
8- Anticipate Teleportation (lv3)
9- Voice of the Dragon (lv4)
10- Celerity (lv4)
11- Teleport (lv5)
12- Primal Instinct (lv5)
13- Contingency (lv6)
14- Disintegrate (lv6)
15- Arcane Sight, Greater (lv7)
16- Ironguard (lv7)
17- Bite of the Werebear (lv7)
18- Mind Blank (lv8)

[ShriekingDrake]

This is a really solid list. Since I didn't see it, I'll mention in the epilogue that you should at least consider Friendly Fire from EoE; it's a fantastic, versatile, effective 4th level spell.

[Emmerlaus]

This is a really solid list. Since I didn't see it, I'll mention in the epilogue that you should at least consider Friendly Fire from EoE; it's a fantastic, versatile, effective 4th level spell.

Searched for that spell and couldnt find it anywhere...

If interesting, it could take the place of Primal Instinct in the list I made. That spell isnt as useful anymore anyway...

[Jack_Simth]

-There's no alignment restriction on the monster.Actually, if you're a Divine caster using Planar Binding, you can't Call anything that:
A) Is directly opposed to an aspect of your alignment,
B) Is directly opposed to an aspect of your deity's alignment, or
C) Has to be held by a Magic Circle Against (any aspect of your alignment or your deity's alignment)

Why?
Well, Clerics are specifically required to not cast spells of alignments that conflict with their own or their deity's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#chaoticEvilGoodandLawfulSpells) - no Evil spells for a Good Cleric, nor a neutral Cleric of a good Deity - and the Magic Circle line has the opposite alignment of what it protects against. Likewise, any Calling spell specifically inherits the alignment subtype(s) of the creature Called. So if you're Lawful-Good, you can't Call a Devil (due to it being an Evil spell), and nor can you Call an Archon (would require Magic Circle Against Good, or Magic Circle Against Law - an Evil spell and a Chaotic spell, respectively).

This restriction is REALLY annoying if you're a Cleric with the Planar Binding line; you pretty much need to be a TN cleric of a TN deity to not exclude any options; the extreme alignments (LG, CG, LE, CE) are pretty much only capable of binding the TN critters (mostly elementals), and partially-neutral clerics of partially-neutral deities generally have about half of the options removed.

[ShriekingDrake]

FRIENDLY FIRE
Abjuration
Level: Druid 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 immediate
action or 1 full round; see text
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 round/level; see text

Whenever you are the target of a ranged attack or a ranged touch attack, you can cast this spell to deflect the attack toward another target within 30 feet. Use the same attack roll. If the redirected attack hits the new target, resolve it as normal. Otherwise, the attack fails.

If you extend the casting time to 1 full round, the duration changes from instantaneous to 1 round per caster level.