The Knight

[Isaac Malus]

So I am playing the second part of a great campaign my first dungeon master threw together about 2 years ago, we have been given the rare opportunity in this case to re-do character levels so long as we still hold some part of what are character was to begin with. Now I was level 13, Dragon rider, knight, defender of Sealtiel and annointed knight. (I was a busy player) This time however I feel I have a clear view of what I want to do. Defend, just like I wanted to from the beginning. I'm looking for the right feats. Can anyone help me out?

[Icestorm245]

Well, first thing's first, Knight is only really viable if you don't ever multiclass or take prestige classes, as there are NO other classes that increase their abilities. If you want the MMO equivalent of a "tank" class, I suppose Knight works well for this. Just keep your charisma high. For feats, I'm not really sure what to suggest. Maybe combat expertise so when you take enemies off your allies, you can switch BAB for AC, so you don't get hit as much. Full Plate, a tower shield, and +5 AC from combat expertise already puts you at 27 AC, without even being enchanted. At level 10, I bet you can get close to 40, especially if you take Improved Combat Expertise, which increases the cap to 10. Don't expect to hit anything though.

Now if you want to be battlefield control, which is an effective way of defending as well, take psychic warrior to get expansion as a power, combat expertise + improved trip, EWP Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Abberation Blood + Inhuman Reach. This way, when you're under expansion, you can have a total of 20ft reach, threatening all squares within that range. Whenever someone moves you can get an AoO on them, use that for a trip attack and effectively keep a lot of the baddies locked down. Remember when they try to get back up, you can use your AoO to trip them again.

I'm far from a good optimizer, however, and I bet other people on these forums can help you far more than I can.

[Isaac Malus]

Darn, our DM dislikes Psionics due to a certain 3rd party.

[Particle_Man]

Would your DM let you play a Crusader from Tome of Battle? They do the "tank" thing really well. If you play a lawful good one you get access to very nice stances. And sword and board works quite well with a few maneuvers of theirs. If you are riding a dragon a lot, then stay away from the Stone Power maneuvers (they require you to stay on the ground to work).

[Gavinfoxx]

The Knight class isn't that great of a MMO Tank... Try a Crusader or Warblade...

[Icestorm245]

Darn, our DM dislikes Psionics due to a certain 3rd party.

Well, I wanted to keep things a tad simple, but it can still be done by taking a level of something with the Use Magic Device skill (rogue maybe?) and getting a wand of enlarge person and continuing to take aforementioned feats. Actually, taking a level of rogue wouldn't be too bad because when you trip a non-sneak attack immune creature, the follow up attack from Improved Trip allows you to add sneak attack dice to your damage due to it being prone, and thus having it's dex denied.

[Phaederkiel]

Knight is a great class up to lvl 4 after which you have its most noteworthy features (bulwark of defense, test of mettle). If you like drawing all fire upon you and striking back repeatedly, Karmic strike and, on your level, Robilars Gambit are really good. Look at

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226046

where different takes on the counterstriker are discussed.

[Particle_Man]

Well, I wanted to keep things a tad simple, but it can still be done by taking a level of something with the Use Magic Device skill (rogue maybe?) and getting a wand of enlarge person and continuing to take aforementioned feats. Actually, taking a level of rogue wouldn't be too bad because when you trip a non-sneak attack immune creature, the follow up attack from Improved Trip allows you to add sneak attack dice to your damage due to it being prone, and thus having it's dex denied.

Knight and Sneak Attack don't play well together, though, as Knight loses honour when it attacks a foe denied dex or takes advantage of a flank.

[Icestorm245]

Knight and Sneak Attack don't play well together, though, as Knight loses honour when it attacks a foe denied dex or takes advantage of a flank.

I wasn't suggesting that he takes Knight and Rogue. I was suggesting a trip build. For battlefield control. Something like Fighter/Rogue. I did suggest that if he did take Knight, take it to level 20.

[OracleofSilence]

Huh, i was working on something like this a little while ago, and run into the fllowing as a decent build:

Knight 4/Warblade 1/Fighter 2/Warblade 13

Feats are
1: EWP Spiked Chain
H: Combat Expertise
3: Improved Trip
5: Stand Still
6F: Combat Reflexes
7F: Karmic Strike (use in conjunction with Wall of Blades, its just backup)
9: Power Attack (might let you pump your entire BAB into power attack and then make an Emerald Razor attack for no penalty, even if not, its still good)
10W: Martial Study (Burning Brand)
12: Robilars Gambit (if they hit, YOU GET EVEN MORE ATTACKS!)
15W: Dodge
15: Defensive Sweep (if they don't move you get an attack of opportunity, if they do, you get an attack of opportunity)
18:Mobility
20W: Sidestep

End Result: You can trip willl, get AoO's against enemies that move, attack you, or don't move (seems to cover pretty much everything)

With Wall of Blades, Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit become nice backups, and sidestep lets you avoid the rest of their attack with little to no difficulty

Emerald Razor lets you make pretty big power attacks, or massive use of combat expertise.

The Knight levels you have make it even harder to move away from you, and give you a way to force enemies to attack you. Defensive Sweep lets you make best use of this.

[Isaac Malus]

Bah tome of battle book of nine swords.. I bought that book myself and everyone complained that I was overpowered.

[OracleofSilence]

Meh. Who says melee cant get nce things?

[mikau013]

Seems like a good idea to ask you which sources are allowed and more important, how strong is the rest of the party and do you want to be? What were / will they be playing?

[Isaac Malus]

Almost everything except ToB and Psionics, all the completes are acceptable anything I can get my hands on that don't have maneuvers or psionics. My friend is playing my character's brother. He's a duskblade, swashbuckler, dragonslayer combo. I can't remember it all but he's great at designing characters. We have a Barbarian/frenzied berserker, a specialist wizard, a cleric, a paladin, and a sorcerer/rouge. Big party, I know. Almost everyone focuses on the damage though. I recall dragging myself out of combat quite often as the "tank" of the group with only 20 Hit points left.

[Flickerdart]

Why would you need a dedicated tank with such a huge front line?

[Isaac Malus]

It's just who he is I guess.... I don't want to compete in doing damage. It's rather irritating at times. Beyond that we do often fight Large groups so it's nice to keep enemies off my squishies

[eggs]

And if you can use Pathfinder's Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) feat, it overcomes some of the limitations on Test of Mettle (Antagonize forces enemies to attack you, rather than to pushing them to make non-"attack" options; it works even if you gain reach; it also works against creatures with level-appropriate will saves).

Beyond that, you could look at AoO feats (Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Mage Slayer/Pierce Magical Concealment, &c.) or some of the generally powerful Charisma-based melee options like fear effects (Dreadful Wrath, Imperious Command, Devil's Aura for Hellbred) or Domain feats (especially Travel or Animal, if possible), if you can work Turning in with a dip somewhere along the line.

[SamBurke]

I'm sure the forum has hammered this into you, but, Crusader. Crusader is just the tankiest tank you're ever gonna find. If you want a balance of damage and tanking, Warblade's pretty good, too.

[Phaederkiel]

just try to get ToB allowed. It is a good book (even if the flavour doesnt link to you), crunchwise it strengthens melee to get on par with casters (and gives casters some interesting dip-options.

[Gavinfoxx]

Bah tome of battle book of nine swords.. I bought that book myself and everyone complained that I was overpowered.

Well, you are more powerful compared to Paladin / Fighter / Monk... but much less compared to Druid / Cleric / Wizard... did you explain the Tier system to them? And how Tome of Battle has a higher 'floor' of competency and versatility than core melee does, being slightly optimized out of the book?

You could always play this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

Sticking to PHB/DMG/MM1/Maybe SRD?

[Isaac Malus]

geez I wish I could get him to accept it. He seemed a little offended when I showed him the tiers. I think it was something along the lines of not needing to revamp the whole game and he likes being able to shut down certain peoples.

[Gavinfoxx]

You did explain that they talk about *potential* power levels, versatility levels, and agency levels gained from class features, against adventuring problems, ceteris paribus? IE, it holds optimization level constant? So that it can be used to target power level to game styles, and is a tool to help DMs figure out what classes have a chance of overshadowing what classes? Like you would want to use Tier 4 and under for gritty games, Tier 3 and up for high powered games?

[Icestorm245]

I think it's funny how your DM allows Divine Metamagic and not ToB... In either case, your DM for some reason seems to not like giving melee nice things. Try going for a fighter/rogue build with the spiked chain with inhuman reach and a way to increase your size. When you're able, pick up the craven feat, which allows you to add your character level to your sneak attack dice. If you can, try to take the Death's Ruin ACF from Complete Champion to replace your rogue trapfinding ability to add half your sneak attack damage to undead.

[Particle_Man]

You could go Knight and pump up your CHA I suppose (and take the monster manual feat that adds 2 to the DC on that?).

Then if you die, you have proof that you were not tanky enough and can say "See? this is why I need to be a crusader!" :smallcool:

Or come back as a bard. In large meelee parties everyone loves bards.

[dextercorvia]

Unseelie Fey Primordial Half-Giant PaladinofTyranny3/Knight

Massive Charisma, Test of Mettle will get them near you, Stench of the Dead will make them even less effective. Stomp once in a while just to spice things up. Get yourself a decent AC and a miss chance, and enjoy watching your opponents be ineffective.

[hex0]

I suggested this a while ago: let PRCs that advance generic casting or just divine casting advance the Knight's abilities instead. There are a few PRC that don't require casting and are flavorful for a Knight: Dragon Slayer and Platinum Knight, to name a few.

[prufock]

Knight 12/Binder 1 with Improved Binding lets you bind a 2nd-level vestige. Bind Dahlver-Nar for the Shield Self ability - you designate one creature within 10 feet to take half your damage. A one-level dip doesn't affect your Test of Mettle DC. You also get goodies like a natural armor bonus equal to half your Con modifier, immunity to wisdom drain and other wisdom-type effects, and a save or daze that you can use once every 5 rounds (though it will have a somewhat low save DC).

Alternately you could go more or less straight Binder into Knight of the Sacred Seal. There are some good tanking vestiges that you can choose. At 13th level with Improved Binding you're binding 3 vestiges up to 7th level. Dahlver-Nar is still good, Haures basically gives you Mind Blank all day long, Dantalion gives you a "No" button in Dantalion's Awe, Chuboclops gives you a nice debuff aura, Eurynome gives you DR and a special weapon, Buer gives you fast healing and immunity to poisons and disease, Focalor gives a nice aura debuff, Savnok gives you special heavy armor and the ability to swap places with an ally, Haagenti makes you immune to transformation, etc.

Whatever you do, make sure to pick up an Amulet of Retribution (BoED), for 56000gp. Creature attacking you gets half your damage. There's also the Retributive Amulet which lets you do it 3 times per day at only 9000 gp.

The Goad feat can sort of do what the Knight's Test of Mettle does - though more poorly.

[Essence_of_War]

OP, just to clarify, both ToB and psionics (including the fantastically well balanced Psychic Warrior?!?!) are off of the table, right?