Totemist vs warblade

[Harry]

Totemist vs warblade round 1: which one of these classes at level 20 is more versatile ? round 2: which one of these classes is a better damage dealer? round 3: which class is easier for a beginner to play?

[Greenish]

1. Totemist.
2. Varies.
3. Warblade.

[Psyren]

1. Totemist.
2. Varies.
3. Warblade.

http://199xchan.org/ngc/src/127387151885.jpg

Did you want specifics as to why, or are there more rounds?

[AmberVael]

Warblade is a pretty straightforward and very competent combat class. It's easy to identify how to use it, and hard to really mess it up. If you do know what you're doing, it improves somewhat, but not hugely. A good Warblade might not deal more damage than some other builds, but it may well beat them in combat anyway due to its various combat options which they won't have.

Totemist is rather more confusing. It can be a terrifying melee monster, tossing tons of natural attacks together like a mad scientist adding blades to a blender, but this isn't obviously their purpose, and what's more, even if you do try and go that route you might not do it effectively. It can be more versatile, but if you don't consider your options and capabilities carefully, you may well end up being incredibly ineffective. Incarnum is not a simple system at all, and I'd more readily point someone towards core spellcasting than towards Incarnum.
What's more, even a successful combat Totemist might not actually be more powerful than a Warblade- at least in that arena. A Warblade may ultimately be good in only one area, but they are good in that area.

[Snowbluff]

Alot of the Totemist's bonuses don't actually stack, and SS isn't 3.5, so no Enh Bonuses on all those natural weapons says WB has the upper hand in just attacks. Then throw in IHS and WRT I'd say a WB wins hands down in a straight up fight. Totemist has it's own tricks, but none as all powerful as those. Not to mention that WB is a Full BaB Class, and spending a full round next to one will usually lead to getting mulched pretty bad.

Totemist is more versatile, but you kind have to read MoI in its entirety or find that on really nifty thread to actually know whats going on with it. Maves on the other hand, i find a little more intuitive, and they require less work.

On a separate and totally unrelated note both books are pretty poorly edited. You should talk to your DM if you have an issue with them.

[Harry]

Round4: which class is more fun?

[AmberVael]

Alot of the Totemist's bonuses don't actually stack, and SS isn't 3.5, so no Enh Bonuses on all those natural weapons says WB has the upper hand in just attacks. Then throw in IHS and WRT I'd say a WB wins hands down in a straight up fight. Totemist has it's own tricks, but none as all powerful as those. Not to mention that WB is a Full BaB Class, and spending a full round next to one will usually lead to getting mulched pretty bad.

Totemist is more versatile, but you kind have to read MoI in its entirety or find that on really nifty thread to actually know whats going on with it. Maves on the other hand, i find a little more intuitive, and they require less work.

On a separate and totally unrelated note both books are pretty poorly edited. You should talk to your DM if you have an issue with them.

Enhancement bonus to natural weapons? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists)
That, and basically every natural attack meld lets you add enhancement bonuses to the natural weapons it grants.
And I'd really rather spend a round next to a warblade, whose attacks are limited by his BAB, than a totemist, whose attacks are only limited by how many natural attack melds he decided to shape today.
"Don't worry bro, I only shaped one."
"Oh, good."
"Girallon arms! Eat four claw attacks in the face!"
"NO MY FACE AUUUUGH!"


Round4: which class is more fun?

You know, I've plenty of reason to say that playing a Warblade is fun, but all I can remember right now is when I played a totemist that tore apart a ship with his bestial claws and left the remains to sink.

It might take some knowing to play, but Totemist is pretty fun.

[eggs]

Warblades for sure.

Totemists mostly all look the same build-wise, taking a lot of the fiddly out-of-session planning off the table, and in play are rewarded for slowing gameplay down by scouting, resting, reseting their ability sets to deal with the specific problems at hand.

Warblades, on the other hand, have a lot of room to fiddle with maneuver progressions and build toward conflicting goals of juggling maneuver, feat and stance progressions. And when they start to get dry, there are dozens of homebrew disciplines floating the web for further depth and enrichment.
EDIT:

Alot of the Totemist's bonuses don't actually stack, and SS isn't 3.5, so no Enh Bonuses on all those natural weapons says WB has the upper hand in just attacks.
...
On a separate and totally unrelated note both books are pretty poorly edited. You should talk to your DM if you have an issue with them.
Very little of Savage species was rewritten, so it should be mostly 3.5-valid, even in those groups who care that WotC told D&D players to rebuy 3rd edition materials to keep playing Right.

But I agree on the editing. Those books have very obnoxious organization/indexing (especially MoI, but ToB's maneuvers aren't laid out in the most usable format, either).

[dextercorvia]

Alot of the Totemist's bonuses don't actually stack, and SS isn't 3.5, so no Enh Bonuses on all those natural weapons says WB has the upper hand in just attacks. .

First, being 3.0, doesn't make it ineligible. Second, Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists) is a better deal for a totemist. And, that's about as 3.5 as you can get.

[Snowbluff]

First, being 3.0, doesn't make it ineligible. Second, Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists) is a better deal for a totemist. And, that's about as 3.5 as you can get.

That's a yes and no. It's cheaper, but you're also missing out on some of those sweet bonuses that melee loves so much. Though, I am startign to think I am going to put "Speed" on my Necklace of Natural Attacks and see what my DM says...

[Godskook]

First, being 3.0, doesn't make it ineligible. Second, Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists) is a better deal for a totemist. And, that's about as 3.5 as you can get.

It isn't 'cheaper', it merely gives the bonus you weren't going to buy for a price you don't want to pay. Totemists *REALLY* want to play in parties with druids, but lacking that, greater magic fang is on the permanency list for just this sort of reason.

[dextercorvia]

That's a yes and no. It's cheaper, but you're also missing out on some of those sweet bonuses that melee loves so much. Though, I am startign to think I am going to put "Speed" on my Necklace of Natural Attacks and see what my DM says...

Your post only mentioned enhancement bonuses.

[Snowbluff]

Your post only mentioned enhancement bonuses.

Sorry, my bad ^^

EDIT: Though, to be honest, it isn't the first thing I screwed up. I didn't notice that the Amulet affect NAs as well. Thanks for pointing that out.

[dextercorvia]

It isn't 'cheaper', it merely gives the bonus you weren't going to buy for a price you don't want to pay. Totemists *REALLY* want to play in parties with druids, but lacking that, greater magic fang is on the permanency list for just this sort of reason.

Doesn't that (Permanency) get even more expensive? Especially if you want to keep them updated? And it puts the DM in a tight spot with Dispel Magic.

Edit: And when you have 8-9 natural attacks, Amulet of Mighty Fists is cheaper than buying that many pearls of power until you are looking for a +4.

[Mystify]

That's a yes and no. It's cheaper, but you're also missing out on some of those sweet bonuses that melee loves so much. Though, I am startign to think I am going to put "Speed" on my Necklace of Natural Attacks and see what my DM says...
Speed would be waste, since "This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects", and so you would only get 1 extra attack. Get haste from some other source.

[candycorn]

Warblade is mostly activated abilities. Typically <Standard Action> - <Attack with special ability>.

Totemist is mostly passive. It gives you more attacks, or somesuch. As such, it combos better with existing techniques, such as ubercharger.

More or less, the above reason is why totemist has a higher damage potential. It's also largely more versatile, with numerous different abilities.

That said, the learning curve for totemist is higher, and a mistake in building the character will leave you crippled for a long time. By contrast, it's hard to mess up a warblade.

[Godskook]

Doesn't that (Permanency) get even more expensive? Especially if you want to keep them updated? And it puts the DM in a tight spot with Dispel Magic.

Edit: And when you have 8-9 natural attacks, Amulet of Mighty Fists is cheaper than buying that many pearls of power until you are looking for a +4.

1.Its about <9k per attack to permanency without any party spellcasters. A bit closer than I thought, but still within doable. The major part is having the party wizard available to cast permanency, not the party druid, oddly enough, as GMF is quite cheap to cast. Also, given caster levels, this would come on line at about CL ~12, for +3 bonuses(assuming the druid caster has a prayer beads and/or an ahnk).

2.Point about dispel, that's an interesting one, but I'd argue that permanent spells not directly targeted should behave like magic items and not normal spells.

3.You don't buy pearls. You buy a rod of chaining and tell the druid to buy his own pearl(2 uses of rod of chaining is worth approximately 1 pearl of power for a 3rd level spell, and you're only consuming one of his 3 charges with GMF). Costs you 14k.

[Ernir]

Round4: which class is more fun?
This is a bit like naming two types of ice cream and asking a forum which tastes better...

They are just different.

Alot of the Totemist's bonuses don't actually stack, and SS isn't 3.5, so no Enh Bonuses on all those natural weapons says WB has the upper hand in just attacks. Then throw in IHS and WRT I'd say a WB wins hands down in a straight up fight. Totemist has it's own tricks, but none as all powerful as those. Not to mention that WB is a Full BaB Class, and spending a full round next to one will usually lead to getting mulched pretty bad.
The primary stacking issue totemists run into is the one of natural weapons, and figuring out how that works. They don't have the same problems Incarnates do (or at least not to the same degree), with everything being an insight bonus. Also, many of the Totemist primary attack soulmelds provide their own enhancement bonuses, which can get significantly higher than what you can get on a weapon.
Flying, teleporting, and coming in through the ethereal plane is pretty cool, and difficult for a Warblade to replicate, too. But yes, they aren't on the same scale as the liberal readings of WRT and IHS. Full BAB is immaterial in this comparison. Full BAB being a good thing implies that having multiple attacks at high attack bonuses is a good thing, and Totemists are just fine at finding some of those.

What I really want to say is that I think you are favouring the system you are more familiar with in this comparison.

[Tvtyrant]

Personally I like the Totemist more, and I would say that it is generally more versatile than a Warblade (miss chances, teleporting, flying, swimming, skill bonuses, etc.) The major problems with the Totemist IMO are:
1. Their totem chakra is so key to their abilities that it is denied most of its tricks at any one time.
2. They are extremely complicated, with the result that sometimes they make combat a nightmare.

[kardar233]

If you're standing five feet from something that absolutely has to die, the Totemist will kill it.

In a more general combat situation, the Warblade has more tools. He can deal with Save or Bad Things with Diamond Mind counters, has in-built free movement to get those full attacks, Mountain Hammer to deal with DR (and headbutt your way out of a solid stone cell, but that's fringe benefits), and one of the best defensive moves in Wall of Blades. Granted, you can't prepare all of your tricks at the same time, but with some foreknowledge of your enemies or a use of Adaptive Style you can get the tricks you want.

Also: Played Warblade. Had tons of fun. Probably biased.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Round4: which class is more fun?

Totemist turns you into a crazy awesome tornado of claws, tentacles, and all other sorts of stuff, along with a few other assorted abilities.

Warblade lets you parry nearly any attack, shrug off even the most debilitating handicap, and smash through walls.


I'd call it a draw.

[dextercorvia]

3.You don't buy pearls. You buy a rod of chaining and tell the druid to buy his own pearl(2 uses of rod of chaining is worth approximately 1 pearl of power for a 3rd level spell, and you're only consuming one of his 3 charges with GMF). Costs you 14k.

Excellent point about the Chaining. I was thinking that was a touch spell. If there is a druid in the party, then it is never worth it to buy AoMF, but that also means NoNA is even less likely to come into play (for a totemist -- A monk may still want it for adding non-numeric enhancements to his UAS).

[Psyren]

Totemists are also more powerful in a ranged fight. Nothing like flinging volleys of spikes over 100 feet, that get your strength bonus to damage.

They have a nice bag of tricks too, even beyond their totem chakra. Flesh-to-stone at will, the movement modes and skill bonuses TVT mentioned, aoe fatigue/stun, and much better grappling bonuses.




What I really want to say is that I think you are favouring the system you are more familiar with in this comparison.

I think we all are. I'm certainly more familiar with Incarnum than the Sublime Way.

But in the end, both are Melee with Nice Things, so I think everyone wins really. Comparing T3 to T3 always gets fuzzy.

[AmberVael]

2. They are extremely complicated, with the result that sometimes they make combat a nightmare.

What? No, not really. In combat, a totemist is pretty darn straightforward- charge this guy, pounce, hit him a ton of times, repeat. Maybe shift around some essentia every so often.

It's getting to the point of being combat ready that's complicated. You have to figure out what natural attack melds will stack, you've got to determine where to put each meld, you have to determine what melds to bind, you have to make sure none of those binds overlap with a magic item, you have to leave yourself enough melds for non-combat stuff to have versatility rather than locking yourself into a single role, you have to have a build which meshes with several soulmeld outputs, and on and on and on.

[Psyren]

You also need to watch those will saves. Getting dominated and forced to shred your party is no fun for anyone. (Well, it may be fun for you and the DM.)

[Lans]

I think one of the binds can help with that. Though it might be incarnate exclusive

[Psyren]

I think one of the binds can help with that. Though it might be incarnate exclusive

The common method is Cerulean Will, as that can't be suppressed and provides an uncommon bonus. Planar Ward provides more definitive protection against charm/domination, but does nothing to help with illusions, confusion etc - and if it's ever suppressed the results could be messy. Enigma Helm is handy but enhancement bonuses are a dime a dozen.

All three will cost you a feat and tie up your essentia, so it's definitely an achilles heel for Totemists.

[Ernir]

I think we all are. I'm certainly more familiar with Incarnum than the Sublime Way.

I consider myself to know the two about equally well.

And I have no idea how such a matchup would end (aside from, you know, the one who comes better prepared squashing the other). :smalltongue:


But in the end, both are Melee with Nice Things, so I think everyone wins really. Comparing T3 to T3 always gets fuzzy.
Yup.


All three will cost you a feat and tie up your essentia, so it's definitely an achilles heel for Totemists.
I like Frostblood Orc + Steadfast Determination on a Totemist.

But yes, still a weakness.

[Chronos]

Why not get the best of both worlds? Totemist 2 / Warblade 18, or if you really want the double totem bind, Totemist 9 / Warblade 11.

[Harry]

Round 5: which class is a better dip?

[dextercorvia]

Why not get the best of both worlds? Totemist 2 / Warblade 18, or if you really want the double totem bind, Totemist 9 / Warblade 11.

Are there that many maneuvers that allow you to make a full attack? The main benefit of Totemist2 is getting to the blender stage. Will Warblade take full advantage of that?

[tyckspoon]

Round 5: which class is a better dip?

I think definitely Warblade; Tome of Battle is just about the only subsystem in 3.5 that is actually designed to multiclass gracefully, and it doesn't hurt that a lot of staple Warblade maneuvers (Mountain Hammer, save counters, Emerald Blade for touch attacks, etc) are pretty low level, so they're easy to grab with a dip; an X 4/Warblade 2 can cherry-pick most of them.

There are a few particular kinds of builds that might benefit from doing Totemist instead (Girallon Arms for adding a stack of claws to an Unarmed Strike fighter, for example, or getting something like Dread Carapace or Totem Avatar to enhance a wildshaper or other natural weapons build) but for the most part Warblade is going to have more to offer to most characters.

[Snowbluff]

Are there that many maneuvers that allow you to make a full attack? The main benefit of Totemist2 is getting to the blender stage. Will Warblade take full advantage of that?

Avalanche of Blades give one really big one, and Time Stands Still lets you make 2 in 1 fullround action. I'd suggest either Totemist6/WB14 for TSS, or getting some Eternal Blade levels so you can get it early/with more Totemist levels.

[eggs]

Are there that many maneuvers that allow you to make a full attack? The main benefit of Totemist2 is getting to the blender stage. Will Warblade take full advantage of that?
Half of Tiger Claw is all about tearing things up with extended natural weapon routines. And plenty of Iron Heart and Diamond Mind boosts and counters work smoothly to keep this kind of build up and running.

And on Round 5, Totemist gives many more abilities with its dip (flight, natural weapons, various movement speeds, skill boosts, etc.) and has more room for out-of-class expansion (Open Chakra spells, powers and feats can partially continue Totemist advancement without levels).

Warblade has some nice stuff, but it usually comes out with about 2 good tricks to the Totemist's catalog.

[eggs]

Are there that many maneuvers that allow you to make a full attack? The main benefit of Totemist2 is getting to the blender stage. Will Warblade take full advantage of that?
Half of Tiger Claw is all about tearing things up with extended natural weapon routines. And plenty of Iron Heart and Diamond Mind boosts and counters work smoothly to keep this kind of build up and running.

And on Round 5, Totemist gives many more abilities with its dip (flight, natural weapons, various movement speeds, skill boosts, etc.) and has more room for out-of-class expansion (Open Chakra spells, powers and feats can partially continue Totemist advancement without levels).

Warblade has some nice stuff, but it usually comes out with about 2 good tricks to the Totemist's catalog.

[Psyren]

The benefit to dipping Totemist is that you get all the melds with just one level, which amounts to a ton of feats saved. The second level gets you the totem chakra, which makes all your melds more useful and can't be gotten anywhere else. And the essentia capacity of your melds increases on its own even without Totemist levels.

Having said that, I'm not clear on the ToB multiclass system so I can't speak to which one is better.

[Snowbluff]

Having said that, I'm not clear on the ToB multiclass system so I can't speak to which one is better.

Initiators add 1/2 their levels in other classes and 1 in each initiator PrC they have levels in. So a WB 14/Fighter6 would have Ilvl 17 (14+.5(6)), and qualifies for using 9th level maves.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Both are great for dips. Totemist 2 gives you Shape Soulmeld x3 plus Bonus Essentia plus access to a chakra you can't get through feats. If you're a fighter, you lose about two hit points, one point of attack bonus, and one fighter feat. If you're a warblade, you lose about four hit points, one maneuver, and one IL.

Warblade 1 gives you three maneuvers and a stance, as well as Battle Clarity and Weapon Aptitude. Warblade 2 gives you an extra maneuver and Uncanny Dodge, and depending on your levels in other classes, it might give you an extra level of maneuvers.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Round 5: which class is a better dip?

Totemist2 dip can net you:

* Move-action Dimension Door. Very lulz-worthy when coming up with Shadowpouncing, but almost as fun for negating any and all environmental threats involving non-traversable terrain.

* 4x claw attacks. At level 2. If you can't figure out a way to incorporate this into a King of Smack build, you need to go back to the CharOp training academy.

* Several types of Bite attacks. The important thing here about a Bite attack is that they tend to be in addition to Claw attacks for secondary attacks with regular attack progressions. They also tend to have boosted damage output in one form or another. Most of them also have other useful abilities that you get in addition to bite attacks.

For example, Ankeg Breastplate gives you free armor that scales with essentia investment that has no ACP and no ASF. The bite also gets scaling acid damage tacked onto the bite.

* A pair of tentacles with reach. Even without AoO's, they're still pretty nifty

* Massive bonuses on a wide variety of skill checks, just for shaping the thing, nevermind what they do when you bind it to your totem chakra. For example, Lamia Belt gives +4 to Bluff and Hide, both highly useful for Rogues. Then, when you bind it to Totem, you get two claw attacks that can be used in addition to your regular attack routine (normally a problem), which means even more sneak attack goodness.

* Shoot multiple spines as a ranged attack. This gets better if your GM lets you consider these to be natural attacks (it isn't explicitly stated that it is a natural attack, but it does call it a spine, which sounds like one to me), and even better than that if your GM allows your to apply Improved Manyshot to it (making it very strong for Swift Hunter builds, although it doesn't work by RAW)

* Pounce with Natural Attacks. Good for monk/swordsage builds that don't want to dip Barbarian. Since this isn't a Totem bind, you can do this, plus something like Lamia Belt for some truly sick damage output.

* Gain bonus damage on a charge (Urksan Greaves). This requires a little more than a two-level dip, but bonus damage on a charge + Sphinx Claws for Pounce + Gorrilian Arms = good times. Works very well with Swordsage to provide a lot of damage output with higher unarmed damage per swing.

* Wormtail belt gives a Natural Armor bonus to AC, just by being shaped. No binding required.

Warblade can net you:

* Ignore DR/Hardness
* Concentration check in place of x save
* IHS
* WRT

They're both pretty powerful dips... but Totemist has the advantage of being able to change around their benefits on a daily basis. Warblades can't change their maneuvers known. So it's kinda like the Wizard/Sorcerer discussion... wizards are more powerful because they can change their lineup.


Initiators add 1/2 their levels in other classes and 1 in each initiator PrC they have levels in. So a WB 14/Fighter6 would have Ilvl 17 (14+.5(6)), and qualifies for using 9th level maves.

That's not a warblade dip, that's a fighter dip on a Warblade chassis.

A two-level dip in Warblade ends up with an IL of 11 at level 20, although depending on where those levels are, you may end up with only having access to 1st or 2nd level maneuvers, and your first stance HAS to be a 1st level stance.

[Seerow]

Random question as someone who has relatively little experience with Incarnum: Is there any reason ever to use any of the soulmelds that are spell-like abilities with saving throws? I mean, as far as I can tell, the most essentia you can invest into a single meld is 6, while save DCs are 10+essentia invested+attribute... so it seems like all save DCs for soulmelds are going to be exceptionally low. Is this why people generally only use the Totemist to make whirlwind of natural attack characters?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Actually, for 4x claw attacks with Totem bind, Landshark Boots is better than the oft-touted Girallon Arms. You can move and get four primary claw attacks at 1d6+strength damage, compared to one primary claw and three secondary for 1d4 each and less strength to damage. The wording of Landshark Boots makes it so that it doesn't work for charging, though, so if you've got that pouncing Leap Attack Shock Trooper, Girallon Arms works better, and if you get enough iterative attacks and damage with unarmed strikes or don't mind dropping your weapon, the combo can outpace Landshark Boots, but it takes work.

[Tvtyrant]

Random question as someone who has relatively little experience with Incarnum: Is there any reason ever to use any of the soulmelds that are spell-like abilities with saving throws? I mean, as far as I can tell, the most essentia you can invest into a single meld is 6, while save DCs are 10+essentia invested+attribute... so it seems like all save DCs for soulmelds are going to be exceptionally low. Is this why people generally only use the Totemist to make whirlwind of natural attack characters?

At level 20 you can get a little bit of use out of them due to their capstone, which doubles the amount of invested essentia (moving cap up to 12). But I believe that generally Totemist melds only really work for movement and melee damage.

[Psyren]

Random question as someone who has relatively little experience with Incarnum: Is there any reason ever to use any of the soulmelds that are spell-like abilities with saving throws? I mean, as far as I can tell, the most essentia you can invest into a single meld is 6, while save DCs are 10+essentia invested+attribute... so it seems like all save DCs for soulmelds are going to be exceptionally low. Is this why people generally only use the Totemist to make whirlwind of natural attack characters?

That's part of it (though do note that you can get the DCs pretty respectable at low levels), but it's more that so few melds actually have a saving throw - and the ones that do tend to have other disadvantages, like cooldowns on usage, very short ranges even with a bunch of essentia crammed in, and being SLAs they have problems of their own like provoking AoO or being subject to SR.

Being an "incarnum-caster" is a lot like being a soulbinding caster. i.e. you theurge and use your noncasting side for support, rather than the reverse, unless you're being a gish.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Pysren's right. With Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, you could be ahead of the curve (or at least tied with someone using Spell Focus) at levels 1-2.

Assuming there's a soulmeld out there with an SLA and a Totem bind, a 20th level Totemist could get a save DC of 24+CON with the same feat 1/day. Why you would do so, though, is the real question.

[Godskook]

Actually, for 4x claw attacks with Totem bind, Landshark Boots is better than the oft-touted Girallon Arms.

1.Landshark boots is as-oft-touted as Girallon Arms.

2.Neither is 'better', Landsharks are merely stronger by themselves while Girallon can actually combo off other things.

[Godskook]

Actually, for 4x claw attacks with Totem bind, Landshark Boots is better than the oft-touted Girallon Arms.

1.Landshark boots is as-oft-touted as Girallon Arms.

2.Neither is 'better', Landsharks are merely stronger by themselves while Girallon can actually combo off other things.

[eggs]

The real problem with Save-or-X soulmelds is that the powers themselves are typically pretty weak.

The Basilisk Mask's Flesh-to-Stone, for instance, is a single-target effect, allowing Spell Resistance and a Fortitude Saving throw and taking a Full Round action to activate. If a Totemist spends a round using it, and it pierces SR, and the target isn't immune, and the target fails its Fortitude save, the target turns into a statue for one round.

In certain circumstances, it's good action economy. In most cases, it's a gamble that might produce a mediocre effect. This is pretty typical for direct offensive powers (though there are a handful of exceptions).

One of the biggest problems I have with mo Incarnate builds is that despite their flexibility and general competence, they don't have a whole lot of useful offensive options without heavy UMD reliance or singleminded specialization in melee.

But with Totemists, Natural Weapons provide a simple enough offensive option.

[Grendus]

Totemist is probably a more versatile dip, but Warblade grants you more powerful options. For a general melee class, I'd be sorely tempted to dip both unless I just had a PrC I had to squeeze in. Probably pretty decent, too.

[Psyren]

One of the biggest problems I have with mo Incarnate builds is that despite their flexibility and general competence, they don't have a whole lot of useful offensive options without heavy UMD reliance or singleminded specialization in melee.


Well, you can fly out of range and spit acid. That's... something :smalltongue:

They can also soulknife better than soulknives, but that's not exactly hard.

[eggs]

Well, you can fly out of range and spit acid. That's... something :smalltongue:
At level 1 with Expanded Capacity, it's like being three Warlocks at a time. Or shooting a greatsword out of your mouth. That's not something a fellow can just go and bash. :smalltongue:

But the Incarnate does have some pretty serious issues with offensive options, making Theurgic builds or interspersed Forgemaster/ToB builds almost mandatory.

But Totemist averts that, and actually gets the handful of useful save-based powers like the Frost Helm and Brass Mane, which have multiple targets and lasting effects. Its DCs are also based on an easily boosted stat, so they can stay competitive even in the later game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Landshark Boots have the disadvantage of prohibiting any further attacks that round. That includes AoO's, iteratives, other natural attacks... all you get is those four claw attacks (with a trivial jump check) and that's pretty much it. They also *require* a charge, which can be difficult in cramped quarters.

Gorillian Arms, on the other hand, simply have four claw attacks. Combo with Sphinx Gloves and you've got the *option* for pounce, if it is necessary. But it can also be used in a regular ol' full attack as well. It also permits AoO's and other attacks.

Landshark Boots can be nasty, if set up right. At low levels, they can easily be more powerful than Gorillian Arms. However, Gorillian Arms works better with adding attacks to an already existent attack progression, and doesn't shut down your AoO's.

[Greenish]

Half of Tiger Claw is all about tearing things up with extended natural weapon routines.Three boosts and one strike are not half of the whole school.

[Snowbluff]

Three boosts and one strike are not half of the whole school.

Yeah, but combo with Diamond Mind TSS, you'll have an unstoppable Flurry of attacks.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah, but combo with Diamond Mind TSS, you'll have an unstoppable Flurry of attacks.

Not really. TSS requires a full-round action, so it can't be used to pounce with. This limitation is.

Really, most of the Tiger Claw maneuvers and boosts can be used with natural attacks, so it does synergize well.

[Snowbluff]

Not really. TSS requires a full-round action, so it can't be used to pounce with.

There's a Mave for that.:smallwink:

It's in Tiger Claw :P

[Greenish]

Really, most of the Tiger Claw maneuvers and boosts can be used with natural attacks, so it does synergize well.All maneuvers can be used with natural attacks. :smallamused:


There's a maneuver for that.:smallwink:

It's in Tiger Claw :PPouncing Strike is also a full round action.

[dextercorvia]

There's a Mave for that.:smallwink:

It's in Tiger Claw :P

It's a full round strike, so it can't be combined with TSS. Also, Mave has got to be the most nonsensical abbreviation (or Abio for short) I have ever seen.

Edit: Pirata'd (Protip:If you've been away for a while, refresh before posting.)

[Snowbluff]

It's a full round strike, so it can't be combined with TSS. Also, Mave has got to be the most nonsensical abbreviation (or Abio for short) I have ever seen.

Edit: Pirata'd (Protip:If you've been away for a while, refresh before posting.)




Pouncing Strike is also a full round action.

I never said it wasn't. I was pointing out that WBde has a way to Ounc without Diopotating.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I never said it wasn't. I was pointing out that WBde has a way to Ounc without Diopotating.

And i was pointing out that you can't Pounce with Time Stands Still, because both are full-round actions, regardless of how you achieve said Pounce.

[Snowbluff]

And i was pointing out that you can't Pounce with Time Stands Still, because both are full-round actions, regardless of how you achieve said Pounce.

And Iwas... nevermind. I was pointing out that you could pounce as WB, which works well with NAs. You're pointing out something entirely different that I agree with.

[Big Fau]

Random question as someone who has relatively little experience with Incarnum: Is there any reason ever to use any of the soulmelds that are spell-like abilities with saving throws? I mean, as far as I can tell, the most essentia you can invest into a single meld is 6, while save DCs are 10+essentia invested+attribute... so it seems like all save DCs for soulmelds are going to be exceptionally low. Is this why people generally only use the Totemist to make whirlwind of natural attack characters?

You can get the capacity to 8, ut it requires specializing. It's actually more efficient to boost your Con mod to +14 and get your Essentia cap to 7 than it is to get the cap to 8.

However, getting the cap to 8 and using the Totemist's capstone ability is damn good with the Manticore Belt. Hell, even the Girallon Arms likes having a +16 bonus on attacks/damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And Iwas... nevermind. I was pointing out that you could pounce as WB, which works well with NAs. You're pointing out something entirely different that I agree with.

Do keep in mind that Pouncing Strike is only usable once per encounter, unless you spend a turn to refresh it. It also requires a possibly-non-trivial Jump check (vs opponent's AC). At the very least, it means tying up skill points on an already skill-starved class.

Yes, they have Pouncing Strike, so yes, they have a capability of pouncing at least once in combat... but it comes with far more caveats than other methods do.

[Elric VIII]

Well, if you have TSS, you probably have Quicksilver Motion. So that's always a nice combo.

[The Cat Goddess]

Do keep in mind that Pouncing Strike is only usable once per encounter, unless you spend a turn to refresh it. It also requires a possibly-non-trivial Jump check (vs opponent's AC). At the very least, it means tying up skill points on an already skill-starved class.

Yes, they have Pouncing Strike, so yes, they have a capability of pouncing at least once in combat... but it comes with far more caveats than other methods do.

You mean, unless you spend a round that you don't use another maneuver in to refresh all the manuevers you've used so far...

Warblade maneuver refreshing is quick and easy.

[eggs]

Three boosts and one strike are not half of the whole school.
Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Wolf Pack Tactics and Blood in the Water strongly reward extra attacks, like those of a Totemist.

Pouncing Charge and Sudden Leap facilitate extra attacks. So does Wolf Fang Strike, but it kind of sucks.

Mave
Do you pronounce it "maveuner"?

[Snowbluff]

Do keep in mind that Pouncing Strike is only usable once per encounter, unless you spend a turn to refresh it. It also requires a possibly-non-trivial Jump check (vs opponent's AC). At the very least, it means tying up skill points on an already skill-starved class.

Yes, they have Pouncing Strike, so yes, they have a capability of pouncing at least once in combat... but it comes with far more caveats than other methods do.


You mean, unless you spend a round that you don't use another maneuver in to refresh all the manuevers you've used so far...

Warblade maneuver refreshing is quick and easy.

This^^


Well, if you have TSS, you probably have Quicksilver Motion. So that's always a nice combo.

Ooh... forgot about that one. It's one of the best Maves available. xD

[Greenish]

Do keep in mind that Pouncing Strike is only usable once per encounter, unless you spend a turn to refresh it. It also requires a possibly-non-trivial Jump check (vs opponent's AC).Pouncing Strike doesn't require a jump check.


Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Wolf Pack Tactics and Blood in the Water strongly reward extra attacks, like those of a Totemist.Out of those, Wolf Pack Tactics is really meh for it's level, and Blood in the Water doesn't really get that much mileage out of natural weapons (with their limited crit range). Mongooses are almost better with THW than with a huge number of natural attacks.

[Hiro Protagonest]

and Blood in the Water doesn't really get that much mileage out of natural weapons (with their limited crit range).

And don't bother wasting a bind on Dread Carapace or a feat on Improved Critical.

You know, Totem Avatar's Heart bind and Dread Carpace as a whole are pretty bad. Dread Carapace's Heart bind is okay if you invest max essentia, but it's basically a Spellward Shirt that takes up a bind and comes on at a level where the wizard is either completely ignoring SR or has such a high bonus on the roll it doesn't matter. Guess since they made the tarrasque bad, they decided that the binds that model it are also bad. Sure, shaping Dread Carapace is basically free two-handed Power Attack with bites, but it's on ALL THE TIME (so that high AC enemy? Yeah, you miss), and it's weak for all other natural attacks, and it doesn't combo with the PA boosters.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You mean, unless you spend a round that you don't use another maneuver in to refresh all the manuevers you've used so far...

Warblade maneuver refreshing is quick and easy.

If you spend a turn not using maneuvers, then during that turn, you're no better than a Fighter. Worse, since you have fewer bonus feats to leverage.

Warblade maneuver refreshing is neither quick nor easy. It requires an entire turn of not being allowed to use any of your class abilities. That's pretty damn harsh.

Crusader maneuver refreshing is quick and easy... automatic, even.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Warblade maneuver refreshing is neither quick nor easy. It requires an entire turn of not being allowed to use any of your class abilities. That's pretty damn harsh.
A full attack from a full bab class, probably with PA and/or stormguard warrior is still a decently spent round.

[Coidzor]

A full attack from a full bab class, probably with PA and/or stormguard warrior is still a decently spent round.

Decent, if one can get a full attack, but boring, yes. Not even decent if one can't get a full attack off.