Duskblade vs Warblade

[JadePhoenix]

Considering single-classed DUskblade vs single-classed Warblade, on a 1-on-1 duel, which sould win?
- At level 1
- At level 7
- At level 13
- AT level 20

My guess is on Duskblade, Warblade, Warblade, Warblade.

[Hazzardevil]

I think Warblade, Duskblade, Duskblade, Warblade
Becuase in Sheer Damage, the Duskblade will win every time past level 1, since they can spam channel shocking touch and other spells, and the warblade can't beat that until level 20 with Time Stands Still and other level 9 maneuvers.

[Tvtyrant]

Considering that it is melee combat in 3.5, likely whoever went first would be able to kill the other before they could get an attack off no matter what level they are. A Warblade can easily do enough damage to kill itself in a single hit at each level, and the same with the Duskblade.

[eggs]

Duskblade has teleportation, flight, invisibility and some strong ranged attacks. If they're starting outside charge range, I'd expect it to win at almost every level, just not by using the tactics it would normally rely on in a party setting.

[TroubleBrewing]

This isn't the question, but I think I'd rather have a Duskblade around than a Warblade.

Don't get me wrong, I like Warblades just fine, but Duskblades have a bit more utility, at the cost of survivability.

[gkathellar]

Never forget that Duskblades, as spellcasters, can pull off stupidity on a far grander scale.

[sonofzeal]

I'd say Warblade at lvl 1-5, and Duskblade beyond. At lvl 6, where iteratives come in, Standard Action Strikes have a noticeable drop in desirability. Not a huge one, they're still good as your bread and butter, but now it's costing you something to use it in any round when you could have full-attacked. Duskblades, by contract, benefit from higher caster level and iteratives.

[Kaeso]

I'd say Warblade at lvl 1-5, and Duskblade beyond. At lvl 6, where iteratives come in, Standard Action Strikes have a noticeable drop in desirability. Not a huge one, they're still good as your bread and butter, but now it's costing you something to use it in any round when you could have full-attacked. Duskblades, by contract, benefit from higher caster level and iteratives.

But to get those iteratives duskblades need some form of pounce. They can't afford to lose caster levels, nor do they have access to turn undeadn, making it hard to pounce.

[Big Fau]

But to get those iteratives duskblades need some form of pounce. They can't afford to lose caster levels, nor do they have access to turn undeadn, making it hard to pounce.

IIRC, there's no clause in Arcane Channeling to allow it to work on a Charge action either.

Regardless, the system is not balanced for PvP gameplay, and a test like this proves nothing about either class. All it proves is Rocket Tag exists, and that the Duskblade is closer to being an Arcane Barbarian than it is to being a true Gish.

[NeoSeraphi]

the Duskblade is closer to being an Arcane Barbarian than it is to being a true Gish.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Some of us happen to like using magic to overload our weapon damage in a cinematic display of arcane power. :smallbiggrin:


Back on topic. Depending on the duskblade's magic items, he could really use dimension door and regroup to a very good effect. If the duskblade somehow manages to get Sneak Attack, he can pump out even more damage with Arcane Channeling and swift invisibility. The other thing is that the duskblade can clearly put out more damage in a single round, thanks to Quick Casting. At level 13 and beyond, casting vampiric touch for free, then channeling it into your full attack, that's at least 40d6-50d6 extra damage, assuming you're not TWF and you hit every time. Even at just level 5, a Quickened shocking grasp combined with a channeled one is already the equivalent of a 19th level rogue's Sneak Attack (as a standard action).

The best part? The warblade is almost guaranteed to be wearing metal armor, so the duskblade gets that nice +3 to hit with shocking grasp, meaning that at lower levels the duskblade probably has a better to-hit than the warblade (even if the duskblade is in light and the warblade is in medium).

[Big Fau]

You say that like it's a bad thing. Some of us happen to like using magic to overload our weapon damage in a cinematic display of arcane power. :smallbiggrin:

I wouldn't mind it so much if WotC had put more Touch-range spells on the Duskblade's spell list instead of skimping them with 4, 5 tops.

[Fax Celestis]

Why not both? Duskblade 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5! Probably will take both basic classes to school.

[JadePhoenix]

Why not both? Duskblade 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5! Probably will take both basic classes to school.

Doubt it. No full-attack channeling, no Time Stands Still. You can't use strikes and arcane channeling at the same time, so it looks worse compared to a single-classed Warblade or Duskblade.

[rollforeigninit]

Why not both? Duskblade 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5! Probably will take both basic classes to school.

Totally second this.

[GreenSerpent]

We haven't even started on using Poison Spell on the touch spells the Duskblade channels.

A full attack, spell along with it and poison as well!

[Snowbluff]

Doubt it. No full-attack channeling, no Time Stands Still. You can't use strikes and arcane channeling at the same time, so it looks worse compared to a single-classed Warblade or Duskblade.

Agreed, not being able to channel on a full attack means you might as well not have taken any Duskblade at all.

Keep in mind WB can learn TSS at level 11 as an Eternal Blade. They Pounce as a Maneuver as well.

The best use of Duskblade is Duskblade13/something that learns better spells, in my opinion. For Example, picking up the Harm spell from UP or that other PrC that gives spells off a Domain.

[kardar233]

Keep in mind WB can learn TSS at level 11 as an Eternal Blade. They Pounce as a Maneuver as well.

How are you getting around Initiator Level requirements here?

[Snowbluff]

How are you getting around Initiator Level requirements here?

Eternal Blade gives you 1 maneuver with a Class Feature, no requirements required. Though, you have to meet the prereq number of Diamond Mind Maves.

[kardar233]

It says "you must meet the requirements for this maneuver", which I'd think would mean that you have to have the Initiator Level for it too.

[Snowbluff]

It says "you must meet the requirements for this maneuver", which I'd think would mean that you have to have the Initiator Level for it too.

It says "prerequisite", which are implicitly the number of maves from that school you have to know to learn that mave. TSS has 4 Diamond Mind Maves known as a prereq, for example.

[Varil]

...

The level is a prerequisite too. On account of requiring it. You know. Like some sort of...prerequisite.

[JadePhoenix]

It says "prerequisite", which are implicitly the number of maves from that school you have to know to learn that mave. TSS has 4 Diamond Mind Maves known as a prereq, for example.

RAI is so obvious here that I'd beat a DM over the head with ToB is she were to allow this.

[Curious]

It says "prerequisite", which are implicitly the number of maves from that school you have to know to learn that mave. TSS has 4 Diamond Mind Maves known as a prereq, for example.

While this is correct, remember that Initiators have to have a minimum initiator level to learn maneuvers of different levels. So, you'd still have to be at least 17th level.

Note: If you aren't an initiator, you could learn, say, Mountain Tombstone Strike at level 1 with a Martial Study feat. As long as you aren't a Warblade, Crusader, or Swordsage.

[eggs]

It says "prerequisite", which are implicitly the number of maves from that school you have to know to learn that mave. TSS has 4 Diamond Mind Maves known as a prereq, for example.
It's the same phrasing used in every class. Do your Warblades start level 1 with Strike of Perfect Clarity?

[Snowbluff]

It's the same phrasing used in every class. Do your Warblades start level 1 with Strike of Perfect Clarity?

No, learning Maves is separate from "gaining use of".

"You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on Table 1–3. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. See Table 3–1, page 39, to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can learn."

Emphasize mine.

It points out that you have to have the right Ilvl in the base classes, but not for Maves gained from Eternal Training.

[Fax Celestis]

No, learning Maves is separate from "gaining use of".

"You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on Table 1–3. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. See Table 3–1, page 39, to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can learn."

Emphasize mine.

It points out that you have to have the right Ilvl in the base classes, but not for Maves gained from Eternal Training.

Good luck getting that past a DM.

[Fax Celestis]

No, learning Maves is separate from "gaining use of".

"You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on Table 1–3. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. See Table 3–1, page 39, to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can learn."

Emphasize mine.

It points out that you have to have the right Ilvl in the base classes, but not for Maves gained from Eternal Training.

Good luck getting that past a DM.

[Snowbluff]

Good luck getting that past a DM.

I have, actually. Many people do, actually. Last time I check it was both RAW and RAI. (I'll try and find the source for this).

I'd like to point out due to how Maves scale, that the class feature working this way is in line in terms of balance. The last healing Strike will heal 110 Damage and the WB will Deal 6 attacks at level 11. nothing to groundbreaking at that point.

[JadePhoenix]

Good luck getting that past a DM.

Indeed.
Btw, Fax, is there some trick to that JPM build you mentioned? Because at a glance, it seems strictly worse compared to a single-classes character.

[eggs]

Indeed.
Btw, Fax, is there some trick to that JPM build you mentioned? Because at a glance, it seems strictly worse compared to a single-classes character.
The trick is that he didn't mention the Major Bloodline. :smalltongue: