Serini Bitterleaf

[Acanous]

Calling this one now. Who wants to put GP on it?

[Bastian Weaver]

No. Just NO.

[Bengui]

Yeah, please, gods, no.

[fergo]

I think it sounds fun, actually :smalltongue:.

But yeah, still no. So I'll take your bet :smallwink:.

[BaronOfHell]

Of course! Belkar is more powerful than he should be! Serini never stopped adventuring! Belkar is Serini with a girdle of masculinity!! Serini Bitterleaf!!:smallbiggrin: Epic level rogue with a few levels of ranger and barbarian.. it doesn't really explain how she could have the problems Belkar had, probably being epic and all..:smalltongue:

Nah, Serini Thundershield is much better.:smallbiggrin:

[RMS Oceanic]

This would be fun if it's only established once Belkar and Serini meet face to face, because It strikes me that this is definitely something Belkar would never say unless asked, just because it wouldn't occur to him to do so.

[fergo]

Of course! Belkar is more powerful than he should be! Serini never stopped adventuring! Belkar is Serini with a girdle of masculinity!! Serini Bitterleaf!!:smallbiggrin:

This :smallbiggrin:.

[edit] Also, the idea of Belkar knowing all along and just not telling anyone is funny, as well :smalltongue:.

[ThePhantasm]

If we have another familial relation plot twist anytime soon I may just go insane.

[Particle_Man]

So a familicide on either would take the other out then?

[Ron Miel]

Since we already know Serini's last name it seems unlikely.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

[Dr.Epic]

I think Thog being Roy's long lost half sister is far more likely.

[NerfTW]

Since we already know Serini's last name it seems unlikely.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

I'm kind of surprised it took this long for someone to point out that we know her last name. Or for anyone to just check that comic.

[Kish]

100 gold pieces says Serini is not Serini Bitterleaf.

[CharityB]

Even if Belkar married Serini, I doubt that she would even want his last name, considering her own sounds a lot more pleasant.

[Dr.Epic]

Even if Belkar married Serini, I doubt that she would even want his last name, considering her own sounds a lot more pleasant.

To humans. Maybe to Halflings, it's a really cool, kick-ass, dignified name.:smallwink:

[FujinAkari]

If we have another familial relation plot twist anytime soon I may just go insane.

What plot twists have we had so far? O.o

All the one's that come to mind aren't really plot twists rather than plot... events. There was no surprise in them.

[jere7my]

What plot twists have we had so far? O.o

All the one's that come to mind aren't really plot twists rather than plot... events. There was no surprise in them.

Tarquin being Elan's father, for instance. Ian being Haley's dad. An event can be foreshadowed and/or guessable and yet still be a plot twist.

[curtis]

100 gold pieces says Serini is not Serini Bitterleaf.

You're on. I have no idea whether this will happen, and in fact it probably won't, but it's always nice to win 100gp.

[Umbra]

Belkar is obviously going to mantle Serini and become the guardian of Kraagor's Gate, effectively taking his last breath (as he is both Belkar and Serini) and thus fulfilling the prophecy.

[Dr.Epic]

Maybe it will happen. And Roy was really dead all along.

WHAT A TWIST!!!

[cloudland]

The Oracle mentioned that "Two of you are running late for a family reunion". We already know who the 2 are, so if Belkar is related to Serini, it means either Belkar will die before such reunion, or the Oracle somehow forgot to count Belkar in despite have looked into his future.

[Luminescence]

The Oracle mentioned that "Two of you are running late for a family reunion". We already know who the 2 are, so if Belkar is related to Serini, it means either Belkar will die before such reunion, or the Oracle somehow forgot to count Belkar in despite have looked into his future.

Not necessarily. The Oracle referred to Roy and Elan, yet Haley has since met with her father. The Oracle's words do not preclude all future family reunions. Still, I think this connection is unlikely.

[Porthos]

The Oracle mentioned that "Two of you are running late for a family reunion". We already know who the 2 are, so if Belkar is related to Serini, it means either Belkar will die before such reunion, or the Oracle somehow forgot to count Belkar in despite have looked into his future.


Not necessarily. The Oracle referred to Roy and Elan, yet Haley has since met with her father. The Oracle's words do not preclude all future family reunions. Still, I think this connection is unlikely.

Yeah, The Oracle was simply referring to the upcoming confrontation with the Linear Guild (Roy and Julia + Elan and Nale), and nothing more.

Moreover, this interpretation would preclude Elan and Tarquin meeting, since that was most definitely a family reunion.

[RMS Oceanic]

Since we already know Serini's last name it seems unlikely.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

If this little twist comes to fruition, either she's Belkar's Mother's Mother, or Halfling naming cultures are different to Human ones.

[Leecros]

An event can be foreshadowed and/or guessable and yet still be a plot twist.

Except that by definition, a plot twist is an unexpected change in the direction or outcome of the plot of a film, novel, computer role-playing game, or other form of narration.

If you can guess it then it isn't a plot twist(because you already guessed it). That said, it IS something that is subjective. Just because someone guessed it doesn't mean that everyone guessed it and to those people it would definitely be a plot twist.

As far as foreshadowing goes, yes a plot twist can be foreshadowed, but foreshadowing for a good plot twist should really only be obvious from a hindsight point of view.

[Kaulguard]

She could have been single when she was an adventurer, and met and married Belkar Bitterleaf Sr. after the events we know about. It's possible. That said, I think it would be dumb. But, sometimes 'dumb' can be funny, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. However, yeah, no.

[jere7my]

Except that by definition, a plot twist is an unexpected change in the direction or outcome of the plot of a film, novel, computer role-playing game, or other form of narration.

If you can guess it then it isn't a plot twist(because you already guessed it). That said, it IS something that is subjective. Just because someone guessed it doesn't mean that everyone guessed it and to those people it would definitely be a plot twist.

I disagree with your definition. A plot twist is a structural element of a narrative; whether anyone guesses it or not doesn't affect its role as a point of inflection. A plot twist doesn't stop being a plot twist if you read a spoiler; it's just less effective for you.

[SamBurke]

Um.... i"d have to archive troll to see if that's likely, but I'd say no.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I'm kind of surprised it took this long for someone to point out that we know her last name. Or for anyone to just check that comic.
I was going to say something, but then I realized it would be brushed off as being her maiden name or some crap like that. So I figured, “Why bother?”

[Dr.Epic]

The Oracle mentioned that "Two of you are running late for a family reunion". We already know who the 2 are, so if Belkar is related to Serini, it means either Belkar will die before such reunion, or the Oracle somehow forgot to count Belkar in despite have looked into his future.

Wasn't that over a year ago in comic? Why would the Oracle say it then? Belkar had plenty of time so the Oracle couldn't be referring to him.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Wasn't that over a year ago in comic? Why would the Oracle say it then? Belkar had plenty of time so the Oracle couldn't be referring to him.

Actually it has been “almost a year ago” rather than “over a year ago.” They did not see the Oracle until a few days after Southern New Year, and Belkar is supposed to die by the next Southern New Year, which is in a couple of weeks.

[Leecros]

A plot twist is a structural element of a narrative
yes, yes it is, but that's not a definition of what it is. That's it's role. There is a distinct difference there.


whether anyone guesses it or not doesn't affect its role as a point of inflection.
That's true, it doesn't stop being a plot twist as soon as someone guesses it because otherwise there would be no plot twists because someone somewhere would have guessed it. However...


A plot twist doesn't stop being a plot twist if you read a spoiler; it's just less effective for you.

This is where you're wrong. Using your example, a plot twist does indeed stop being a plot twist for you(thus the subjective part) if you read it in a spoiler and it's true. As i said in a previous post, a plot twist is a change in the expected outcome. The minute that you start expecting an outcome is the minute it stops becoming a plot twist because....well, you're expecting it, ergo, it's not unexpected when it happens, ergo, it's not a plot twist.

[t209]

What if Serrini changed her love from Girard to Kragor at one point of their adventures? Maybe she carried his child before his death and raised her lover's child as her own. And the child married with Bitterleaf family.:smallfrown:

[Yvanehtnioj]

Maybe Serini is Belkar's grandmother? I remember there was a strip where he mentioned her (the grandmother) threatening him or something.

But, then again, he probably would have mentioned it by now to someone else in the Oots adventuring party.

[Acanous]

See, my thoughts here are that she lost the one she loved, but was charged with protecting a gate. So she married into a local halfling family. I do assume here that halfling naming conventions are similar to human ones, where the female traditionally takes the male's family name.
Would explain how belkar got so antisocial, and also how he's so good at killing.

[jere7my]

This is where you're wrong. Using your example, a plot twist does indeed stop being a plot twist for you(thus the subjective part) if you read it in a spoiler and it's true.

Language is fluid, and I don't mind you having your own definition, but it's a much less useful one. By your argument, scholars could never point out the plot twists in Shakespeare because they all already know how things end up, yet that doesn't stop them. It's possible to look at a known narrative and say, "Aha! Here is where the narrative changed direction, because a previously unknown, or only guessed-at, piece of information was revealed." That point is a plot twist — a point where the plot twists, if you will — and there is nothing subjective about its existence. "Luke, I am your father" is still a plot twist, and any definition that says it's not is far off the mark.

Google ["most famous plot twist"]. Under your definition, that would be a meaningless phrase, because as soon as a plot twist becomes famous it ceases being a plot twist. Yet there are plenty of results.

More to the point, this issue came up because FujinAkari asked, "What plot twists have we had so far? All the one's that come to mind aren't really plot twists rather than plot... events. There was no surprise in them." That would be a silly question to ask if plot twists were subjective.

[Particle_Man]

Serini married a disguised member of the IFCC (Cedric) and had a half-fiend child that had Belkar, unbeknownst to the IFCC. When the IFCC take over V and make V cast familicide on Belkar, ironically it will kill all the fiends, including the IFCC. Oh, and all the halflings.

[weeping eagle]

If you can guess it then it isn't a plot twistPlease define "you" and "can".

[veti]

Since we already know Serini's last name it seems unlikely.

Serini Toormuck. From Halfling "toor", meaning "foliage", and "muck", meaning "harsh, astringent". When Belkar left his village and started spending time with humans, he translated his name to "Bitterleaf".

:smallbiggrin:

[Dr.Epic]

Serini Toormuck. From Halfling "toor", meaning "foliage", and "muck", meaning "harsh, astringent". When Belkar left his village and started spending time with humans, he translated his name to "Bitterleaf".

:smallbiggrin:

Yes, and "Greenhilt" and "Starshine" mean the same thing as well.

[allenw]

Even if Belkar married Serini, I doubt that she would even want his last name, considering her own sounds a lot more pleasant.

Reasonable minds can disagree, but IMO, Bitterleaf > Toormuck.

[ThePhantasm]

What plot twists have we had so far? O.o

All the one's that come to mind aren't really plot twists rather than plot... events. There was no surprise in them.

They all were foreshadowed, but the prisoner being Ian and therefore Haley's Dad, the general being Tarquin and therefore Elan's Dad, the murdered folk being related to the ABD and therefore slain by familicide... just about every twist lately has been family-related if you think about it.

[Acanous]

Reasonable minds can disagree, but IMO, Bitterleaf > Toormuck.

I agree with this sentiment.

[Bogsworth]

Serini married a disguised member of the IFCC (Cedric) and had a half-fiend child that had Belkar, unbeknownst to the IFCC. When the IFCC take over V and make V cast familicide on Belkar, ironically it will kill all the fiends, including the IFCC. Oh, and all the halflings.

But what about the Quarterlings, Particle? What about the Quarterlings! :smalleek:

[Chobarth]

Maybe Serini is Belkar's grandmother? I remember there was a strip where he mentioned her (the grandmother) threatening him or something.

But, then again, he probably would have mentioned it by now to someone else in the Oots adventuring party.

Aunt Judy is strip # 165. Reference to a birthday party is strip # 261 (no family mentioned though). Another old strip I'm not bothering to look up that references being an outcast while growing up and fantasizing about killing his home village.

I don't remember a Grandmother reference. An error, or can someone help me out here?

[FafnerMorell]

Belkar's last words: "Mom?!"

[Hbgplayer]

I highly doubt it. Serini seems much too jolly and nice to be related to Belkar in any way other than through the fact that they both happen to halfling.

[Mr. Pants]

No. Just NO.


NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! It's too horrible to be true! It's physically impossible! How could a monster like Belkar :belkar:be related to this honorable halfling woman? It doesn't make sense at all!

[cloudland]

Yeah, The Oracle was simply referring to the upcoming confrontation with the Linear Guild (Roy and Julia + Elan and Nale), and nothing more.

Moreover, this interpretation would preclude Elan and Tarquin meeting, since that was most definitely a family reunion.

Eh I don't think it is referring to Elan+Nale and Roy+Judy at all, considering how easy it would have been for Roy and Judy to meet, (I won't be surprised if he met Judy just a few weeks before the start of the story), and Elan+Nale hardly count as a "reunion". Haley+Ian make sense as a reunion considering the difficulty and the length of time apart, while Elan+Tarquin, at least for the time being, still have good quality time together, and Elan have not seens Tarquin for very long time.

[Mr. Pants]

Eh I don't think it is referring to Elan+Nale and Roy+Judy at all, considering how easy it would have been for Roy and Judy to meet, (I won't be surprised if he met Judy just a few weeks before the start of the story), and Elan+Nale hardly count as a "reunion". Haley+Ian make sense as a reunion considering the difficulty and the length of time apart, while Elan+Tarquin, at least for the time being, still have good quality time together, and Elan have not seens Tarquin for very long time.

Right, because Nale's little more than an inhuman monster out to get Elan...

Doesn't Roy already have Celia?

[cloudland]

Right, because Nale's little more than an inhuman monster out to get Elan...

Doesn't Roy already have Celia?

I don't think Roy and Celia upheld that "abstinence before marriange" ideal, so no they are not family yet despite all the act they have done together.

Beside, Elan+Nale+Tarquin sounds more like a family reunion to me.

[Kish]

Roy+Judy
Who is Judy?

[Mr. Pants]

I believe her last name is Toormuck.

[Porthos]

Eh I don't think it is referring to Elan+Nale and Roy+Judy at all, considering how easy it would have been for Roy and Judy to meet, (I won't be surprised if he met Judy just a few weeks before the start of the story), and Elan+Nale hardly count as a "reunion". Haley+Ian make sense as a reunion considering the difficulty and the length of time apart, while Elan+Tarquin, at least for the time being, still have good quality time together, and Elan have not seens Tarquin for very long time.

But the Elan + Tarquin and Haley + Ian meetings took almost a year to occur. :smallconfused:

It makes no sense for the Oracle to say, in effect, "Get out of here. You're running late for a family reunion....

.... in 11 months." :smallconfused:

However, it makes perfect sense for it to be the very next day (or that very night if you count Nale contacting Roy). And whether they like each other or not, they are still "family reunions".

*half remembers something*
*gets book off shelf to double check*

Either way, Rich explicitly says in the commentary for W&XP* that the family reunion line was referring to the Elan + Nale and Roy + Julia meeting.

In fact, it was deliberatly put there to show that, yes, The Oracle can indeed predict the future and thus the various prophices are Serious Buisness.

* I should have checked that in the first place. :smalltongue:


I don't think Roy and Celia upheld that "abstinence before marriange" ideal, so no they are not family yet despite all the act they have done together.

I suspect given the nature of some of the establshments in Celestia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html) that they aren't quite as hung up on that ideal as might be thought. :smalltongue:

But, overall, I would agree with you that just being in a relationship wouldn't make Roy and Celia "family".

[veti]

Who is Judy?

Belkar's only named relative (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html). I'm surprised you don't remember.

As to what she has to do with Roy - this is where I miss the crack pairings thread...

[Mr. Pants]

Belkar's only named relative...surely he should have others...:smallconfused: