Immunity to Death: Overpowered?

[SlashRunner]

Greetings, all

At one point in the not-so-distant past, inspiration struck me and I thought up a magic item that I'm now debating giving to the party. Essentially, it's a longsword (perhaps it has some enhancements or other enchantments on it, but that's the boring part) that, while held, prevents its user from dying. At positive HP, the wielder acts normally. From 0 to -9, the wielder will be unconscious as normal, and below that, the wielder will remain unconscious and regenerate HP at a rate of 1/month. As such, unless the weapon is removed from the wielder's "corpse", the wielder would be effectively unkillable. Would such an item be overpowered for a level 8-ish party?

Also, on a somewhat related topic, I'm also debating how death effects should interact with the sword. Should they directly bypass the immunity to death and therefore act as a weakness, or should they simply set the target's HP to a ridiculously low number (say, -1*(max HP)? If anyone could offer any suggestions, I would be very grateful.

[Namfuak]

That wouldn't really be overpowered. If it is a TPK, the enemy will definitely loot a nice-looking sword off the pimped adventurer (as well as all of their other gear), and if it isn't a TPK then this means that that member of the party can be healed back by a friend, so really all it is saving is 10,000 gp and a level.

As for death attacks, it depends why you are giving them this sword. Is there a specific person who dies a lot, or specific reason why this sword must be given to the party? Then it should probably be the latter effect. If you are giving it to them simply because you think it could be an interesting effect, the former option would probably be better.

[Ceaon]

Greetings, all

At one point in the not-so-distant past, inspiration struck me and I thought up a magic item that I'm now debating giving to the party. Essentially, it's a longsword (perhaps it has some enhancements or other enchantments on it, but that's the boring part) that, while held, prevents its user from dying. At positive HP, the wielder acts normally. From 0 to -9, the wielder will be unconscious as normal, and below that, the wielder will remain unconscious and regenerate HP at a rate of 1/month. As such, unless the weapon is removed from the wielder's "corpse", the wielder would be effectively unkillable. Would such an item be overpowered for a level 8-ish party?

Also, on a somewhat related topic, I'm also debating how death effects should interact with the sword. Should they directly bypass the immunity to death and therefore act as a weakness, or should they simply set the target's HP to a ridiculously low number (say, -1*(max HP)? If anyone could offer any suggestions, I would be very grateful.

I don't think it is overpowered. In fact, I don't think it really does anything. Corpses are always looted, meaning that the sword would most often not protect the wielder from death at all unless the wielder glues it to his hand or something.
Still, it's a cool idea. Even if it does prevent death, it is not overpowered unless death is a common occurence in your campaigns and your players would envy that one player that doesn't need to create a new character every odd session.

[hymer]

Something to consider: In my campaigns, things start shift as levels increase. High level PCs don't seem to die due to hp loss so much, as to other effects. Around level 6, wyvern poison is probably the most common cause of death in current statistics that I've just made up. Petrification, death effects, baleful polymorphs, all these start to enter a PC's life (and death) around 8-10. Some can be reversed with little trouble outside of the TPK. Some, well, can't.

[Zaq]

This basically just saves you the cost of Raise Dead and similar spells, since (if I'm reading you right) normal healing will get you up and kicking just fine.

Of course, you'll want to make sure that your party doesn't go for things like Rageclaws and that sort of thing, because then HP ceases to be a meaningful limit for this sword's owner. In a low/mid-op game, though, it's unlikely to cause problems.

[Flickerdart]

This would help enormously in situations when the party is wiped by beasts that don't care to loot the sword. However, said beasts also have to be herbivorous and chase off scavengers, otherwise the sword's owner is going to be eaten.

[Johel]

This would help enormously in situations when the party is wiped by beasts that don't care to loot the sword. However, said beasts also have to be herbivorous and chase off scavengers, otherwise the sword's owner is going to be eaten.

Fate Worse Than Death very much, then.
Or just death, as the regeneration is too slow to prevent the poor guy to hack into pieces and digested.
So yeah... not overpowered at all.

If it was 1 hp/round, that would be another story.

[Mystify]

by itself? No, its probably fine. But would it be abusable? Yes. Frenzied beserker with deathless frenzy can keep going for a couple of minutes, irregardless of health, then not die when they run out and fall over with -10000hp damage. Its generally a bad idea for a character to have 0 regard for his own saftey. However, since this is a personal campaign and not a printed item, potential abuse does not matter as long as you make sure it does not turn into actual abuse. Luxury of balancing for the specific case and not the general.

[Jack Zander]

Consider this: When a character is knocked unconscious, he drops anything he is carrying in his hands. So I'd say that this ability is quite frankly underpowered in the sense that it doesn't do anything at all (not at least until you secure it with a locked gauntlet or something).

[Gavinfoxx]

You seem to think that hit point damage is the only way to kill someone...??

What about Constitution Damage? Death Effects? Petrification? Massive Damage?

Also, you are aware that Wizards already have a way to act at -Whatever hit points, and be unkillable by hit point damage and still up?

[Telonius]

Greetings, all

At one point in the not-so-distant past, inspiration struck me and I thought up a magic item that I'm now debating giving to the party. Essentially, it's a longsword (perhaps it has some enhancements or other enchantments on it, but that's the boring part) that, while held, prevents its user from dying. At positive HP, the wielder acts normally. From 0 to -9, the wielder will be unconscious as normal, and below that, the wielder will remain unconscious and regenerate HP at a rate of 1/month. As such, unless the weapon is removed from the wielder's "corpse", the wielder would be effectively unkillable. Would such an item be overpowered for a level 8-ish party?

Also, on a somewhat related topic, I'm also debating how death effects should interact with the sword. Should they directly bypass the immunity to death and therefore act as a weakness, or should they simply set the target's HP to a ridiculously low number (say, -1*(max HP)? If anyone could offer any suggestions, I would be very grateful.

So basically, it's Captain Jack Harkness in sword form? :smallbiggrin: I'm sure he'd approve. Might draw the attention of some Maruts. It's definitely very powerful, maybe a bit too strong for an 8th-level party. It should not be replicable; I'd call it an Artifact.

Maybe change the enchantment so that part of the character's soul resides in the sword until he regenerates enough to be alive again...? That might make it make some more sense.

[bassmasterginga]

Greetings, all

At one point in the not-so-distant past, inspiration struck me and I thought up a magic item that I'm now debating giving to the party. Essentially, it's a longsword (perhaps it has some enhancements or other enchantments on it, but that's the boring part) that, while held, prevents its user from dying. At positive HP, the wielder acts normally. From 0 to -9, the wielder will be unconscious as normal, and below that, the wielder will remain unconscious and regenerate HP at a rate of 1/month. As such, unless the weapon is removed from the wielder's "corpse", the wielder would be effectively unkillable. Would such an item be overpowered for a level 8-ish party?

Also, on a somewhat related topic, I'm also debating how death effects should interact with the sword. Should they directly bypass the immunity to death and therefore act as a weakness, or should they simply set the target's HP to a ridiculously low number (say, -1*(max HP)? If anyone could offer any suggestions, I would be very grateful.

its OP. It does not save PC's 10K and a level on death, it allows a PC to ignore that penalty. That is a lot of utility. The wielder can just charge into every fight wearing a blindfold till he goes down.

[Piggy Knowles]

You seem to think that hit point damage is the only way to kill someone...??

What about Constitution Damage? Death Effects? Petrification? Massive Damage?

Also, you are aware that Wizards already have a way to act at -Whatever hit points, and be unkillable by hit point damage and still up?

This. Make sure you have clear rules as to what happens when someone wielding the sword is hit by a death effect. In general, the sword is nice but not overpowered if HP damage is the only thing you have to worry about. It could be abused by someone who, say, takes Deathless Frenzy or maxes out Autohypnosis to stay awake when in negative HP, but if a character is abusing that, then they probably would find some other way to stay alive below -10 HP.

But if the sword makes you immune to say, Finger of Death, or being level drained by a wraith, or that sort of thing, then it is an extraordinarily powerful weapon indeed. Your party can only just cast Death Ward, keeping it up for eight minutes, and you'd be essentially giving it to one character permanently...

[Chained Birds]

I would probably graft the sword to my arm making it a weapon I constantly wield. It would be painful and probably kill me, but then the sword kicks in and is now permanently fused to my body as my arm regenerates over the sword.

[Voyager_I]

its OP. It does not save PC's 10K and a level on death, it allows a PC to ignore that penalty. That is a lot of utility. The wielder can just charge into every fight wearing a blindfold till he goes down.

Assuming you don't just drop it and die when you get knocked unconscious (which I am assuming, since this would make it useless), it means your character will survive anything short of a TPK or an encounter where the survivors have to run away and leave him on the ground.

While that does open up a handful of potentially useful strategies (suicide charges aren't suicidal anymore), the kind of characters who are using it probably aren't the ones who are breaking the campaign.


Also, smarter opponents might know about the sword if the character is well-known and bases their strategy around it. That makes it much less useful, since all they have to do is take it off your soon-to-be-corpse after they drop you.

[ericgrau]

In the hands of monsters it's entirely useless. In the hands of PCs, far from it. PCs rarely lose fights; when they do the campaign often ends. What this means is the wielder gets up over and over again without expensive diamonds or level loss.

At level 8 when even a raise dead costs a lot of money and level loss in unavoidable, the sword is worth most or all of the player's WBL. It would be ok to let a player have it if he has hardly anything else. Technically this is worth multiple true resurrections and thus in the hands of a higher level player it is worth several times what a level 8 player could ever afford. But the thing is a level 8 player would never pay for a true rez, he'd prefer a raise dead. Thus even at higher levels this player should get less loot. What you really have here is a lesser artifact; something that cannot be properly priced pre-epic (at which point it would cost as much as a few true rezzes). So you have to play it by ear.

Or some DMs go easy on player death, which is fine but realize it changes the game dynamic. It will make players more careless about charging into otherwise very high risk situations and increase the chance of a TPK. And you need some way to be fair to other players who don't have the sword.

That's another reason why the sword is strong. The owner doesn't have to worry as much about running away or getting emergency healing (which usually decreases the party's chance of winning a fight but saves on resurrection costs). Thus he can focus more on hitting things and he'll get more rounds of offensive combat than your typical PC. You don't have to smart to pull that off, you only have to realize that you're safe.

[Talionis]

It doesn't sound overpowered. If it gets out of hand, a sword could get stolen by a BBEG, or just shatter, or needed for a component of a spell/rite.

[Mystify]

Actually, on further reflection, it really depends on the level of party op and how your campaign generally flows. I generally end up with campaigns where people die once in a blue moon, so this may save them once or twice if they are unlucky. I've also seen campaigns where multiple people would get killed each round and the party could shrug it off like it was nothing.

[Slipperychicken]

If anyone learns about this weapon? Suddenly every bandit, monster, mercenary, wizard, government, adventurer, and desperate family in a hundred miles is gunning for him, hoping to Sovereign-Glue it to their own hands.


Totally worth aggroing the whole country :smallamused:

[Brock Samson]

2 suggestions:

1. Perhaps it doesn't stop you from going into -x hit points, so it could be at one point you're at -967 instead of always -9 (which would allow virtually any healing spell to bring you back up in one round ready to fight again).

2. I like the idea of the sword getting your soul into it. Perhaps people believe it makes the wielder immortal because they keep seeing the same person wielding the sword who they've seen die holding it before, makes sense? Well little do they know that it's got the soul of an evil wizard in it who, once you've held the sword, starts trying to take over your mind, and eventually your body, and you eventually BECOME the wizard. Then your party does some crazy stuff to get the wizard out of the sword and once they do whoever's left with the sword now has that power.

[DrDeth]

Read “The Misenchanted Sword” by Lawrence Watt-Evans.

[NichG]

Actually, depending on how strict you are with the 1hp/month thing, getting KO with this sword can be far worse than just dying at higher level. E.g. if you can't magically heal the body, then the PC could be out for 3 years of campaign time, when the rest of the campaign occurs over the span of 3 months.

If you do allow magical healing of the body, then its basically just a cool bit of insurance. There are other ways to achieve roughly the same effect already, though they're a bit costly for a Lv8 party - Death Pact, Fortunate Fate, the Heroic Destiny feat chain...

And it still doesn't help someone who falls into a volcano, through an inter-planar portal, or is killed by non-hp-damage means.

[Gavinfoxx]

You should take a look at how the following spells in the spell compendium combo together. They are BETTER than this sword in several ways...

Beastland Ferocity
Delay Death
Heroics (for Diehard -- mostly insurance, the other two are the core of the effect).

Go on, I'll wait.

[erikun]

The 1 HP/month regeneration would be mostly irrelevant, because characters recover HP equal to their level each day. A first level character would recover 30 HP in that span of time; someone from your intended party (8th level) would recover 240 HP. Secondly, anyone going without food for a month would starve to death. Heck, they'd die from dehydration long before that.

It might be interesting to permanently attach to a warforged, though.

[Demonic_Spoon]

I thought it was going to be a item of constant Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity or something, this is just meh.

[2xMachina]

IMO, underpowered/useless if they don't use Die Hard or quick healing when they do go down.

I think it gives a metagame power, rather than an ingame one mostly. All it does is save the trouble of: John 1 dies. John 2 appears, who surprisingly have similar experiences and equipment, but with modified background.

[Voyager_I]

IMO, underpowered/useless if they don't use Die Hard or quick healing when they do go down.

I think it gives a metagame power, rather than an ingame one mostly. All it does is save the trouble of: John 1 dies. John 2 appears, who surprisingly have similar experiences and equipment, but with modified background.

Melee characters could definitely build strategies around not being able to die in anything short of a TPK or a complete route. With self-preservation rendered largely irrelevant, you can do whatever it takes to secure victory.

[Jack Zander]

Melee characters could definitely build strategies around not being able to die in anything short of a TPK or a complete route. With self-preservation rendered largely irrelevant, you can do whatever it takes to secure victory.

I'm not so sure disregarding self preservation is that great of an idea. After all, the fighter who is down after the first round or two of combat is doing less damage over time than the one who stays up the entire fight.

[Fax Celestis]

Is there a way you're ensuring the weapon doesn't fall out of the wielder's grip when they die?

[Voyager_I]

I'm not so sure disregarding self preservation is that great of an idea. After all, the fighter who is down after the first round or two of combat is doing less damage over time than the one who stays up the entire fight.

I'm not saying that getting yourself killed for no reason is suddenly a good strategy. However, the sword allows you to adjust your priorities; keeping yourself, personally, alive is no longer near the top of your list. You can now focus on actions that will contribute most directly to your party's overall victory, without having to worry about what happens to you after.

For a quick example, you could suicide-charge the enemy caster on the first round of combat without worrying about the personal consequences. This is an incredibly valuable action that might not be viable in normal situations just because your character would probably die.

[Ashtagon]

Is there a way you're ensuring the weapon doesn't fall out of the wielder's grip when they die?

This is my concern too, and it was also raised upthread. RAW, you drop anything not locked in place when you die or fall unconscious. Someone could of course place it back in your hand after the fight, but equally, someone could take the sword away for their own use.

Immunity to death magic effects is a meaningful bonus. Having any hit that reduces you to negative hp reduce you to -1 hp (unless already lower) instead would be useful. The slow regeneration and the "ignore the -10 hp limit" are meaningless, as RAW you'd drop the weapon, and so lose the weapon's benefit.

[Mystify]

This is my concern too, and it was also raised upthread. RAW, you drop anything not locked in place when you die or fall unconscious. Someone could of course place it back in your hand after the fight, but equally, someone could take the sword away for their own use.

Immunity to death magic effects is a meaningful bonus. Having any hit that reduces you to negative hp reduce you to -1 hp (unless already lower) instead would be useful. The slow regeneration and the "ignore the -10 hp limit" are meaningless, as RAW you'd drop the weapon, and so lose the weapon's benefit.
Locked gauntlet, done.
Also makes it hard to disarm, which is very nice for something like this.

[Rubik]

Turn it into a -2 cursed sword.

[Jack Zander]

I'm not saying that getting yourself killed for no reason is suddenly a good strategy. However, the sword allows you to adjust your priorities; keeping yourself, personally, alive is no longer near the top of your list. You can now focus on actions that will contribute most directly to your party's overall victory, without having to worry about what happens to you after.

For a quick example, you could suicide-charge the enemy caster on the first round of combat without worrying about the personal consequences. This is an incredibly valuable action that might not be viable in normal situations just because your character would probably die.

Or you could deal with the encounter like you normally would and NOT waste the party's spell per day/wand charges/potions on healing you back up afterward.

[Voyager_I]

Locked gauntlet, done.
Also makes it hard to disarm, which is very nice for something like this.

I've been assuming there's some way for the sword to continue affecting you after you've been rendered unconscious, simply because it would be completely worthless otherwise.

A Locked Gauntlet would be the simplest solution, but the specifics don't really matter.