Tiers of Generic Classes?

[lunar2]

so, what are the tiers of the warrior, expert, and spellcaster generic classes?

spellcaster is obviously a T1, or maybe even T0, because of its access to basically every spell there is, but what about the other 2 classes?

[Mystral]

Spellcaster: Tier 2. Able to create chaos, but not in every way possible, but depending on his spell selection.

Expert: It's a fighter with less bonus feats, but to even it out, worse BAB and HD. His skillpoints aren't really much of a saving grace. Tier 5.

Warrior: It's a fighter with a wider array of bonus feats. Tier 5, though higher then the fighter.

[Psyren]

It depends on what class features are allowed:


You can't recreate all of the standard character classes with these generic versions, particularly classes with complicated, unique, or specialized features such as bardic music, a wizard's familiar, or a druid's wild shape ability. If your game master allows it, you might be able to select other class features in place of one or more feats.

For instance, if you were able to take the generic Expert, and tack on a class feature like Wild Shape, Soul Binding or Incarnum, you could easily hit T3.

Using the listed class features though, neither of the non-casters get above T4, and are most likely sitting around T5.

[AmberVael]

Spellcaster is Tier 2.

It has some notable advantages over sorcerer, but also has less spells per day, and is still limited by spells known, which is the major limiter on a spellcaster's power.

At a glance, I think I'd peg Warrior as tier four, maybe, largely depending on what class features are available. If it's just the one listed, it is probably low tier 4, or high 5. While nearly identical to fighter, opening up class features and all feats to it helps it.

Expert is likely tier five.

[Jeff the Green]

Spellcaster is definitely tier 2. Fewer spells/day than a sorcerer or favored soul, but a better spell list and feats.

Expert is about like a rogue, but worse SA, better feats, and two fewer skill points/level. Tier 4.

Warrior is about like a fighter, but better feats and skill list. That might bump him up to tier 4 (since he can grab, say UMD and Spellcraft), but probably not.

[Mystral]

Why would you place expert at a higher tier then warrior?

It gets 1 better save and better skills, but loses in BAB, HD. It gets 4 bonus feats less until level 20. The only level where expert is usefull is the first because the skillpoints x 4 thing.


Would I have to play a mundane character in such a game, I'd take Expert as a first level and then continue as a warrior, so I'd have some good lower skills and could specialise in a few others.

[Jeff the Green]

Because it makes a decent skill monkey. The difference between 6 and 8 skillpoints per level sucks, but is manageable. The difference between 2 and 6 hurts.

[Jack Zander]

I don't think skills are that useful for a character. At least half of them can be replicated by spells, making UMD the only skill you ever need as a utility class.

[Mystral]

I agree, you can adventure very well with only 6 class skills and 3-4 skill points/level. I'd take 4 bonus feats over the skills most of the time.

Also, if you build a party together, one character can be the face, one can be the "thief" with disable device, search etc. and so on. You can still have all your bases covered with 3 warriors and a spell caster. Difference being that you have a specialst for everything and your guys can actually fight, and do more cool stuff (Bonus Feats)

[lunar2]

hmm. i thought having nearly every spell in existence on your spell list would be worth more than that.

so, if i wanted them to be better balanced, how would i go about that (without drastically expanding the list of available class features)?

i'm thinking:

give the expert D8 hd and 8 skill points per level, along with bonus feats at 1st and every even level.

drop the spellcaster's casting progression down to bard, give them a D6 hd, and 4 skill points per level.

give the warrior a bonus feat every level, and add in heavy armor proficiency.

would that be more balanced, and what tier would they be?

[Jack Zander]

You want to make them balanced? Keep the spellcaster as is, give the skillmonkey a bard's spell progression, and the warrior a paladin's.

The warrior will still be tier 3-4 but at least the skillmonkey will be tier 2-3 now. Although I suppose being able to chose any spell rather than be restricted to the crap paladins and rangers are usually stuck with has to count for something.

[Mystral]

I agree. Spells are very hard to balance with anything but spells. You can dish out bonus feats all you want, they still won't help against a guy who can fly, teleport and change into any monster in existence.

The question is, on which tier would you want them to be balanced. If you want them to be balanced on the tier of the spellcaster, Jack Zanders example is usefull. I'd give the Warrior the bard spell progression, though.

If you want them to be balanced on the levels of the warrior and expert, give the spellcaster the bards spell progression, and ban some of the more OP spells.

[lunar2]

i wanted something closer to the middle.

the warrior and expert both seem underpowered to me (and apparently, everyone else, as well), while the spellcaster seems drastically overpowered.

as for the bonus feats, those would get you limited access to meldshaping, binding, truenaming, and/or initiating, iirc. imo, if you get enough unrestricted bonus feats, you can build one very effective, if weird, character.

[sonofzeal]

Caster - T2. Pretty obvious.

Warrior - T3. The ability to chose your own class skills is not to be underrated, and unrestricted bonus feats are a bigger boon than most people seem to think.

Expert - low T3. Less bonus feats and BAB means that their max effectiveness is likely below Warrior. Their advantage is the ability to take secondary skills that the Warrior can't afford, but that's marginal. They're still comparable though.

[Mystify]

Honestly, I'd love to be able to dip warrior in conjucntion with normal classes, or at least prestige classes. 2 arbitrary feats are very nice.

[Suddo]

Warrior - T3. The ability to chose your own class skills is not to be underrated, and unrestricted bonus feats are a bigger boon than most people seem to think

The problem is the same as the fighter, once you choose your feat you're pretty much stuck with it. You can't be a grappler, tripper and ubercharger in the same day you can only be one. Barbarian is a Tier 4 Character the Warrior is probably not going to beat that.

[sonofzeal]

The problem is the same as the fighter, once you choose your feat you're pretty much stuck with it. You can't be a grappler, tripper and ubercharger in the same day you can only be one. Barbarian is a Tier 4 Character the Warrior is probably not going to beat that.
However, you're not a Fighter. You can have UMD on your skill list, and spend your feats gaining awesome Cha synergy. You could go with Open Chakra and Bind Vestige for flexibility within the day. You could layer up every Draconic or Abberation feat for huge stacking bonuses that no other character could build up, or grab a wide array of crazy powers and feat chains.

You can play a Fighter... if you want to. But just because the chassis is superficially similar doesn't mean the result is.