Telling the players about penalties?

[bloodtide]

It's common enough in the game for a character to get inflicted with all sorts of penalties. But here is the question:Do you tell the player the details about the penalty?

There are generally two ways to do this: 1)Treat RPGs as a 'special' kind of game. Tell the player only about the direct penalty that effects the character (''you have a -2 penalty to hit'') or 2)Treat RPGs as 'just another game' and tell the omniscient player everything(''the effect gives you a -2 penalty to hit for 2d4 rounds'').

I do it the first way, of course. The player only knows the direct penalty and nothing extra. But I see a lot of games do it the omniscient player way. So what way do you do it?

For some specific examples:

1.The group encounters a ghost. A character fails their save vs the frightful moan. 1)I would just say:''Your character is panicked''. 2)The DM would say ''Your character has been panicked for 5 rounds''.

2.A character is hit by an enervation spell. 1)I would say ''you gain 4 negative levels from the 'black ray' '', but not mention the spell by name. 2)The DM would say "You are hit by the enervation ray and gain 4 negative levels'' The the Dm might add in the ''don't worry the negative levels will wear off in a couple hours'', but hardly needs to as telling the spell name has already ruined the mystery.

3.The group is effected by an 'unknown' force to them, but the Dm knows it's a permanent curse effect. 1)I would tell the players ''As you enter the tomb each of your strength scores is reduced by six.'' and not state why at all. 2)The DM would say ''The in place bestow curse effect on the tomb reduces each of your strength scores by six.'' And again the DM here tells them the bonus information that they were effected by the spell bestow curse.


Important Note Now I'm not talking here about a player using the characters skills or abilities to figure things out in the game. That's fine(somewhat, that's another post). I'm talking about where the DM treats the players as 'omniscient partners', so that they would know all the game effects on their characters....but, of course, would 'pretend' not to know the effects while playing as the character.

I think that RPGs are a special sort of game. That game information should be hidden from the players, so that they have more fun. It is very dull and boring and mechanical to know all the 'facts'(the game rules) of the game. It's much more enjoyable for players to be totally immersed in the more role playing aspect of the game.

[Hylas]

It really depends on if their character would know for the most part.

For 1) A successful Knowledge: Religion check will let a character know what a ghost is able to do with their special abilities, how to fight them, etc. It's really the DM's call if they tell the players how long the effect lasts if they have no idea (i.e. no ranks in Knw: Rel) but personally, depending on how much the group metagames, is the basis if I would tell them or not how many rounds. If a player is likely to revolt on the grounds of "arbitrarily panicking me for any number of rounds" then I'll tell them they're panicked for only five rounds. If they go along with what I say then I won't tell them how long, bonus points if they roleplay being panicked.

For 2) "Black ray" is exactly the description you'll give a layman, along with the bad stuff that happens to them (so they can note it on their character sheet or whatever, same deal with HP damage). Anyone with spellcraft can attempt to identify the spell because that's what the skill is there for.

For 3) See 2.

Another note that may be relevant is that if someone needs to make a will save against, for example, a mind-reading type spell then if they know about it depends entirely on if they succeed or fail. If they succeed their will save they know someone tried to do a mental attack on them. If they fail then they don't know about the attempt.

[jguy]

When it comes to rounds, I tell my players because I don't want to keep track of how long their penalties are. I can trust them to track that themselves. Besides, otherwise the player will ask every round "Am I still panicked/shakened/weakened ect. ect.?" If the number of rounds is high, then they will get really annoyed, possibly thinking you are making the duration inordinately long

[limejuicepowder]

I absolutely do NOT tell the players more then the most obvious info on penalties/effects - the only reason I give a number at all is to make the game run a little more smoothly; if I didn't give anything but a description I would have to factor in the penalty mentally each time it came up (which is kind of a pain).

I firmly believe adding numbers and OOG info breaks the mood, and makes the story less immersing.

[Coidzor]

If the character is under a fear effect or suffering from some other in-game status condition, then, yes, the player should know so that the DM doesn't have to list out all of the penalties unless the player has forgotten, in which case they can refer to the entry on the condition and make a note of it.

The only reason to not do so is if you view the players as the kind of people who will actively try to cheat you even if you have their character sheet in your hand, it's otherwise so much more convenient and not grotesquely insulting.

[Ernir]

At this point in 3.5's age, most players know the rules. If you're going to obscure them in order to give an impression of "mystery", you better do it damn well, or you're just going to come off as a Professor Trelawney.


It is very dull and boring and mechanical to know all the 'facts'(the game rules) of the game. It's much more enjoyable for players to be totally immersed in the more role playing aspect of the game.
I don't recall sitting at a table, asking "am I still stunned?" at the start of each round ever enhancing my immersion. :smallconfused:

Really, you're coming off as if the roleplay and rollplay aspects of the game have something to do with one another.

[prufock]

I pretty much always tell my players about any effect active on their character, including the mechanics. I expect them to separate player vs character knowledge where necessary.

[Keneth]

I usually don't tell the players what the duration is unless it's irrelevant and there are times when they aren't even informed of the effects if the character doesn't know what's happening. I almost never inform them of the actual source/cause of the effect unless they can determine what it is by themselves, such as by rolling a spellcraft check to identify the spell or stipulating that ability damage after being bitten by a snake is likely poison.

[eclipsic]

I pretty much always tell my players about any effect active on their character, including the mechanics. I expect them to separate player vs character knowledge where necessary.

This, but I also understand that some subconscious metagaming occurs, so I generally only let them know the things they require to know the mechanical effect on their character.

For instance, I let them know that they're sickened or shaken, and what the appropriate modifiers are, but I won't tell them the duration of the effect. I also won't tell them which spell causes the effect, unless they've made a Spellcraft check to acquire that information.

On very rare occasions, when context seems to oblige it, such as the sneaky Mind Fog in White Plume Mountain, I'll just describe the effect rather than the mechanic:"You feel light-headed and it's hard to concentrate" vs "You take a -10 penalty to Will saves".

[Varil]

Typically I'll tell players info based on how obvious the effect is. "You're panicked for 6 rounds" makes sense, because it's obvious they're panicked. Six rounds is long enough in a fight that it may as well be the whole battle, so if the players want to try and fix it to get that character back in the fight it's still a relevant choice, so telling the duration is just a convenience.

On the other hand, if a character is hit by an unknown spell and is rendered unconscious or otherwise out of the fight by some effect, I'll probably just announce that said character has dropped.

[mikau013]

On very rare occasions, when context seems to oblige it, such as the sneaky Mind Fog in White Plume Mountain, I'll just describe the effect rather than the mechanic:"You feel light-headed and it's hard to concentrate" vs "You take a -10 penalty to Will saves".

Problem with this example is that unless you know exactly what is going on anyway, I at least would think light headed and hard to concentrate would mean something like a penalty on concentration checks. I would for sure never associate it with a will save penalty.

[Suddo]

Debuff inflicted to them I wouldn't tell them. Buffs I would (especially if they casted it).
Though I don't always follow this rule.

Also a knowledge check (spellcraft or other included too) to find out what it was and how long.

[bloodtide]

If the character is under a fear effect or suffering from some other in-game status condition, then, yes, the player should know so that the DM doesn't have to list out all of the penalties unless the player has forgotten, in which case they can refer to the entry on the condition and make a note of it.

The only reason to not do so is if you view the players as the kind of people who will actively try to cheat you even if you have their character sheet in your hand, it's otherwise so much more convenient and not grotesquely insulting.

It's not so much that the players might cheat(but they could, of course), it's more to avoid the lets say the 'accidental' slips.

If you tell a player 'your under a curse effect', that is something the character does not know(as remember they have failed any way to know that). So when the player goes to town they 'randomly' head to the nearest temple to 'randomly' have a cleric cast remove curse on them for 'er, no reason just to make sure I don't have a curse(wink, wink)'.

And that is just for the 'sort of cheats'. It's simple enough, you can't pretend not to know something. Even a saint would have a hard time 'pretending' not to know something.

And that is where the fun of the mystery comes from. If a character gets 'zapped' by something and they have no idea what it is, they can wonder and speculate and guess and role play it out. But if the player just knows, it's spell effect A and that it does B and C, then it's dull and boring.

[Curmudgeon]

I try to handle extraordinary status mechanics by myself when DMing. I'll tell the player "You don't feel so good." and adjust accordingly. (If they say they'll hit AC 28, I alter that to AC 26.) I also don't tell them their HP numbers, just "minor wound", "significant damage", & c. (They can get the number with a Heal check.) I figure it's my job to run the game, and doing a little extra work to maintain player immersion is worth the effort.

[Keneth]

I also don't tell them their HP numbers, just "minor wound", "significant damage", & c.
Wait, you don't tell them how much damage they're taking? :smallconfused:

[eclipsic]

Problem with this example is that unless you know exactly what is going on anyway, I at least would think light headed and hard to concentrate would mean something like a penalty on concentration checks. I would for sure never associate it with a will save penalty.

That's kind of the point. I don't really want them to know the exact mechanics, because then it becomes a situation where they metagame and think, "Hmmmm...a -10 to Will saves probably means some kind of illusion or enchantment coming up, so I should probably cast Protection from Evil, just in case." But the whole point of the Mind Fog effect is precisely to prevent this kind of coherent thinking, so it's sort of self-defeating if they know what it does.

Again, this is a very rare case...in almost all other situations, I'll let them know what's happening mechanically, if only so that I don't have to keep track of it.

[Averis Vol]

it really depends on the effect, like most have said it was bestow curse and say it did strength damage i would simply say "as you enter the doorway make a save. (after hearing their roll, check it against my cheat sheet) alright: ticor, bram, durian you three feel the strength drain from your body and your equipment feels heavy (after rolling some un-needed dice to throw them off) lower your strength by six." i don't see a problem with this, they should know how weak they feel so they can act on it in character.

[Curmudgeon]

Wait, you don't tell them how much damage they're taking? :smallconfused:
Yes, I tell them if they're taking a minor wound, or serious damage, or whatever.

Just in case you missed it, there's no digital HP meter on any race or class in the game.

[Keneth]

Just in case you missed it, there's no digital HP meter on any race or class in the game.
True, but it's a lot of work keeping track of everyone's HP and the many effects that influence it. Unless your encounters generally involve a small amount of creatures, it just seems like it would bog down the combat even more than it already is. Not that I doubt your ability to handle the extra load...