Not optimized but styling - Warlocks

[Particle_Man]

This is my curse. I like them just the way they are, even knowing they are far from powerful. Heck, I can stat one up without going outside the core + Complete Arcane that intros the Warlock.

Lets see: Human Warlock, Dex 16 (improve at least the first three times), con/wis 14, str/int/cha 10 (28 points)

Feats: P-B Shot, Precise Shot, Great Fort, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Precise Shot, Extra Invocation

Invocations: Eldritch Spear, See the Unseen, that chaos 20% protection from ranged/no scent/no tracking one, Flee the Scene, Fell Flight, Eldritch Chain, Vitriolic Blast, Chill Tentacles, the dispel magic one, the improved invisibility one, shadow walk, (feat: the sending one), dark foresight.

Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, UMD.

See? Not exactly optimized, especially at high levels, but I would have fun playing it. I wonder if that would be a drag on the rest of the party, or whether the DM would have to tone down the encounters, or what?

Heck, I probably made an optimizer's fingers twitch just by my posting this. :smallbiggrin:


So, how much room is there for style, simplicity (I only used one non-core book, and that was to get the class!), and fun, vs. optimization in your games?

[nyarlathotep]

It kind of looks like you're looking for a fight, but there is really nothing horribly unoptimized for just a general running around warlock. Hellfire warlock could help to make you deal more damage and then pick up something to heal ability damage. The only other really good obvious choices like glavielock and clawlock are both separate concepts.

Fun vs. optimization is not any sort of struggle. The simple fact is that usually optimization and looking through the self evolving combinations are fun to the people who use them. It's not like people sit down and say "I'm gonna use this tedious annoying build that makes my life hell for a few hours each week."

[Chronos]

Optimization always depends on what goal you're optimizing towards. If your goal is to be able to run around all day blasting everything indiscriminately without ever having to worry about running out of ammunition, then Warlock isn't a bad means to that goal. There are other ways to do it, of course, but Warlock is still decent at it.

[Urpriest]

So how do the Wis 14, Great Fort, Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will make this character more fun to play than if he had Cha 14 and three different feats?

[Nich_Critic]

I agree.

To me, optimisation leads to more options, and more options lead to more fun. It's not about power, except that often power creates options where there weren't any.

Looking at your build, you'd likely do pretty well in just about any party, unless it was a party of wizards, druids, and clerics. You could pick better feats, but in this case "better" just means "feats that give you more options". I don't find a +2 to saving throws very exciting - I'd rather have an extra invocation (at the very, very least), or to get into a nice PrC. But that's just what I find enjoyable - do whatever you like :smallsmile:.

Edit: As for optimization vs style, it's a false choice. Ideally, the goal is to decide what you want to play, and then build towards that. Bonus points (at least in my mind) if you can get a concept to work that isn't very well supported by the rules. But your warlock doesn't seem especially stylish. What, other then taking feats that other have called under optimized, and not having a high cha score, makes him unique and fun to play?

[Particle_Man]

What, other then taking feats that other have called under optimized, and not having a high cha score, makes him unique and fun to play?

Who said anything about unique?

As for fun, I have no idea, except that I have found him fun to play. I may be psychologically aberrant, for all I know. :smallsmile:

As for the feats, that was more of a "I didn't find any feats that particularly resonated for me personally, and I don't like failing saving throws that much, and also a feat that gives a static bonus is easier to remember so I can save my attention for other matters that I find more interesting in play". Wis 14 was fairly similar and a static boost to spot and listen is a nice minor bonus (since I also don't like getting surprised that much). Also, I was sticking to PHB and CA to see if I could make a Warlock that I found fun to play while sticking to the PHB and CA. Simplicity was also one of the virtues listed in my OP.

[Madara]

This is my curse. I like them just the way they are, even knowing they are far from powerful. Heck, I can stat one up without going outside the core + Complete Arcane that intros the Warlock.

Lets see: Human Warlock, Dex 16 (improve at least the first three times), con/wis 14, str/int/cha 10 (28 points)

Feats: P-B Shot, Precise Shot, Great Fort, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Precise Shot, Extra Invocation

Invocations: Eldritch Spear, See the Unseen, that chaos 20% protection from ranged/no scent/no tracking one, Flee the Scene, Fell Flight, Eldritch Chain, Vitriolic Blast, Chill Tentacles, the dispel magic one, the improved invisibility one, shadow walk, (feat: the sending one), dark foresight.

Heck, I probably made an optimizer's fingers twitch just by my posting this. :smallbiggrin:


*Twitch*

I...those feats...why?...Whaaa?

Your missing the Baleful Utterance. Shatter Spam at will is lots of fun.
GM:"There is a locked door ahead of you, how are you going to get to the next room?"
Rogue:"Let me check if I still have my lock picks, I could pr----"
Warlock:"I SHATTER the Door!"
GM:"But..umm... the door weighs too much."
Warlock:"I SHATTER the Hinges."
GM:"ok...that works. There is a man standing in the next room with a spear."
Warlock:"I keep SHATTERing the Spear until he fails his save!"

Oh the fun you'd have..:smallbiggrin:

[Tokiko Mima]

For fun you could try stating up a pixie warlock. You'd lose 4 levels from the LA, but you can drop the P-B Shot, Precise Shot and Imp. Precise Shot (and all the saving throw) feats, and drop Walk Unseen, Fell Flight and Retributive Invisibility invocations and take other choices. Your racial traits fill the gaps those feats leave rather nicely.

Then probably Eldritch Spear, Entropic Shielding, and Warlock's Call because.. umm.. yuck; you're better off that way.

You also get a whole host of other goodies, from a grab-bag of daily SLA's to massive relevant ability bonuses to DR to SR to small size bonuses (which are great when they don't penalize your damage). Plus when you begin play you already have a better version of Fell Flight (natural flight speed, at twice the rate) and Retributive Invisibility (Improved Invisibility at will as a free action.)

[Wavelab]

When I find myself playing in an epic campaign where everyone is optimizing I find this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) and homebrew to be really helpful. I once made a gestalt wizard(with cha as a casting stat) / sorcerer who had charisma to basically every possible thing. And guess what? Do damned campaign died before we could get started, but the point is, if you go through every thing on your sheet and try to improve it you will be able to optimize.

For example: This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235885)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, how much room is there for style, simplicity (I only used one non-core book, and that was to get the class!), and fun, vs. optimization in your games?

I'm a big fan of Warlocks as well, mostly because they aren't as 'win button' as T1 and T2 classes.

However, you're coming very close to Stormwind Fallacy territory with this last phrase.

Fun is the reason why we pick up the books in the first place. If fun isn't had, things need to change. That is, at the core, the purpose of a game.

CharOp builds are fun to design. That's why people make 'em. Most of 'em are theoretical optimization builds, meaning that not only are they not intended for actual play, but the creators would probably be horrified at seeing their creation run amok in someone's poor campaign. They're pretty boring to play in an actual game, because they simply dominate everything.

However, there's nothing that says that a mechanically strong character can't be enjoyable to play. In fact, I remember a thread I made last year some time wherin I called upon the Playgrounders to give me your character concepts, and I would make a mechanically viable character out of that concept. It went on over ten pages, and I feel that it pretty much definitively proved that power level does not equate to character concept.

If you had replaced the three saving throw feats with things like Empower SLA and Improved Initiative, you could have easily increased his effectiveness without hampering anything else.

Your invocations list is pretty solid, although all over the board. I'd have switched out Walk Unseen... since you already have Fell Flight and Flee The Scene, it's largely unnecessary. Probably grab Charm so I can dip Mindbender for Mindsight, or Hellrime Blast for HFW. Failing that, Eldritch Cone.

[Averis Vol]

For example: This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235885)

this depends on your definition of optimization. the only thing this build can really do is not get hit, other then that hes kinda screwed. =/

as for optimization vs. fun you don't need to ruin your build to have fun. there are still things you can do within the lines of moderate power that can be very fun. equally i do not find a single ounce of fun in playing the world breaker wizard or the DMM persistomancer especially if the rest of the group is "having fun" with their builds. but thats me, there are some people who enjoy cookie cutter builds that are made to break the game.

[Wavelab]

this depends on your definition of optimization. the only thing this build can really do is not get hit, other then that hes kinda screwed. =/

Yes but it's still a good example of optimization. It was optimized to a point were hitting it is really hard.

[Averis Vol]

Yes but it's still a good example of optimization. It was optimized to a point were hitting it is really hard.

fair enough. it does do that quite well.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes but it's still a good example of optimization. It was optimized to a point were hitting it is really hard.

And Mirror Image is about as good at generating misses, without any optimization required. I will admit, though, that Greater Mirror Image is probably best to persist, since it regenerates images.

[Morph Bark]

So, how much room is there for style, simplicity (I only used one non-core book, and that was to get the class!), and fun, vs. optimization in your games?

Lots of room. One of us is playing a Half-Vampire Changeling Warlock 6/Duskblade 2/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 1 who carries around a Tower Shield 24/7.

Perhaps not simple, but those last two levels were only after I told her about Hellfire Warlock, which made her really want it, and Binder is kind of required for it if you don't want to screw yourself over.

Personally, I tend to play more complicated builds on characters, but the concepts are very simple. My current one? Brawny lady who punches others away with great strength. Incredibly simple tactics, but the build has only one class with more than 2 levels in it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I posit that Crasical's Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3) is both optimized and incredibly fun (if the performances and their outcomes are roleplayed; otherwise, it's "ho hum, Diamond Mind stuff", which can still be fun, but not breaking the awesome thermometer fun), and further, that the sort of inventive thinking that leads to the creation of these types of builds is also the same sort of inventive thinking that also leads to creative solutions at the table (like cutting fireballs with your sword, for instance), and actually allows you to pull it off.

P.S. "Extra Invocation" thrice over would probably have been more fun than Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes, because it would have let you do more stuff. Taken at the levels you grabbed those feats, you could have grabbed two least invocations in place of the last two (the first one occurred at level 3), which could mean Baleful Utterance (I shatter THE WORLD) and, say, Hideous Blow (suddenly you're flying around and charging people with your eldritch-powered sword/lance/axe/whatever).

[Particle_Man]

I am not saying optmization cannot be fun.

I am saying I personally can have fun builds that are simple but not necessarily optimized. I am not sure if I am alone in this.

I think I actually like builds that don't require multiclassing and don't require going into more than the minimum number of books necessary for the class (as in the OP case, I just use CA and PHB even though of course there are other books that have great prestige classes, feats and invocations for warlocks).

Thinking about it, I guess I was curious as to whether others on this board sometimes play characters that don't multiclass, don't use more than the minimum number of books needed to introduce the class, and still have fun with the class, without bringing their party down because they are not further optimized and might thus be "below par" vs the CR equivalent monsters. I used the word "simple" for this because I don't know what other word to use that doesn't carry negative connotations either for those that play this sort of character or for those that play other sorts of characters.

Thinking on it more, I guess I am also using "simple" to describe "going for the stuff I like, and not cluttering up the character (in my eyes) with stuff I don't specifically like" but that gets more nebulous and harder to generalize to other people. I only offer this as further reason as to why I took the save feats. Once you count them on the character sheet they fade into the background and I can forget about them and think about other things.

Sorry if anyone took offense.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I am not saying optmization cannot be fun.

I am saying I personally can have fun builds that are simple but not necessarily optimized. I am not sure if I am alone in this.

I think I actually like builds that don't require multiclassing and don't require going into more than the minimum number of books necessary for the class (as in the OP case, I just use CA and PHB even though of course there are other books that have great prestige classes, feats and invocations for warlocks).

Thinking about it, I guess I was curious as to whether others on this board sometimes play characters that don't multiclass, don't use more than the minimum number of books needed to introduce the class, and still have fun with the class, without bringing their party down because they are not further optimized and might thus be "below par" vs the CR equivalent monsters. I used the word "simple" for this because I don't know what other word to use that doesn't carry negative connotations either for those that play this sort of character or for those that play other sorts of characters.

Thinking on it more, I guess I am also using "simple" to describe "going for the stuff I like, and not cluttering up the character (in my eyes) with stuff I don't specifically like" but that gets more nebulous and harder to generalize to other people. I only offer this as further reason as to why I took the save feats. Once you count them on the character sheet they fade into the background and I can forget about them and think about other things.

Sorry if anyone took offense.

The SLA feats are in the SRD and the Monster Manual... that's about as Core as one gets. And they are infinitely better than the save feats.

If you wanted a 'fire and forget' feat, take Improved Initiative. Again, PhB.

There's a difference between 'simple' and 'sub-optimal'. I sometimes enjoy playing a simple character. But you will never catch me blowing feats on things like the save feats.

[Person_Man]

I always let players play whatever they want. But if you chose to play the Warlock (or a similar Tier 4 or lower build) you posted, you would probably get very bored after a few game sessions.

Your choices in combat basically boil down to:

Hit something for modest damage, possibly imposing one negative status effect.
Fly
Dispel Magic.
Black Tentacles.
Use a magic item.


And that's pretty much it. You also have a few moderately useful defenses and utility abilities, but they're not really things that you actively do in combat.

I don't think anyone really advocates for YOU MUST PLAY TIER 1 OR YOU SUCK around here. But an Incarnate or Dragonfire Adept or any full caster can basically do all of the above plus a bunch of other stuff. A Warlock does not do anything that is uniquely interesting or powerful or efficient. Yes, it's simple. But so is a Dragonfire Adept or a spontaneous caster with a focused spell list.

[Crasical]

In fact, I remember a thread I made last year some time wherin I called upon the Playgrounders to give me your character concepts, and I would make a mechanically viable character out of that concept. It went on over ten pages, and I feel that it pretty much definitively proved that power level does not equate to character concept.

.... Dang, I would really love having a thread like that around. I consider myself decent at character optimization but sometimes I really do hit a brick wall and could use some insight on how to make a concept baseline efficient.

EDIT:

I posit that Crasical's Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3) is both optimized and incredibly fun (if the performances and their outcomes are roleplayed; otherwise, it's "ho hum, Diamond Mind stuff", which can still be fun, but not breaking the awesome thermometer fun), and further, that the sort of inventive thinking that leads to the creation of these types of builds is also the same sort of inventive thinking that also leads to creative solutions at the table (like cutting fireballs with your sword, for instance), and actually allows you to pull it off.
:smallbiggrin: People are saying nice things about me on the internet! :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

.... Dang, I would really love having a thread like that around. I consider myself decent at character optimization but sometimes I really do hit a brick wall and could use some insight on how to make a concept baseline efficient.

Well the original thread was here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203959).

What concept did you have?

[Particle_Man]

The SLA feats are in the SRD and the Monster Manual... that's about as Core as one gets. And they are infinitely better than the save feats.

If you wanted a 'fire and forget' feat, take Improved Initiative. Again, PhB.

There's a difference between 'simple' and 'sub-optimal'. I sometimes enjoy playing a simple character. But you will never catch me blowing feats on things like the save feats.

The SLA feats are nice, but then I would have to remember the 3x a day thing and part of the appeal to me of Warlocks is not having to keep much track of that sort of thing.

Imp. Init. could work too, if I had another "neutral" slot. I guess I just like higher saves better than a higher init.

[Crasical]

Well the original thread was here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203959).

What concept did you have?

I've been trying to recreate Dampierre from Soul Calibur and his dual wrist-blades, but with heavy armor as well.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The SLA feats are nice, but then I would have to remember the 3x a day thing and part of the appeal to me of Warlocks is not having to keep much track of that sort of thing.

Imp. Init. could work too, if I had another "neutral" slot. I guess I just like higher saves better than a higher init.

Improved Initiative is vastly more powerful for several reasons.

First, there's the old saying 'go first, go last'. Your saves are irrelevant if your opponent is no longer in position to affect you. There are several Save or Lose effect blasts... Nauseating, Blinding, and Hindering are three I can name off the top of my head. Hit an opponent with one of those, and they won't be in a position to return fire, making saves obsolete.

Second, there's tons of ways to boost your saves. Simplest being a Cloak or Vest of Resistance. The +5 version is a mere 25 grand... cheap at the price. Heck, the +2 version is a mere 4k, the price of a Haversack, and duplicates *ALL THREE FEATS* simultaneously.




I've been trying to recreate Dampierre from Soul Calibur and his dual wrist-blades, but with heavy armor as well.

Dual-weapons tend to be weak tea unless you've got supplemental damage boosts from somewhere.

Also, heavy armor and Dampierre's trickster-style seem to be at odds. Judging from his fighting style, I'd call him either a Rogue/Invisible Blade (what with all the feinting going on), or a Factotum.

[Particle_Man]

Improved Initiative is vastly more powerful for several reasons.

First, there's the old saying 'go first, go last'. Your saves are irrelevant if your opponent is no longer in position to affect you. There are several Save or Lose effect blasts... Nauseating, Blinding, and Hindering are three I can name off the top of my head. Hit an opponent with one of those, and they won't be in a position to return fire, making saves obsolete.

Second, there's tons of ways to boost your saves. Simplest being a Cloak or Vest of Resistance. The +5 version is a mere 25 grand... cheap at the price. Heck, the +2 version is a mere 4k, the price of a Haversack, and duplicates *ALL THREE FEATS* simultaneously.

First, I like the vitriolic essence, and don't much like the "save or else" essences. I didn't want to bother with the high charisma build to avoid the enemies going "ok, I save, now what?". So if that is the only reason, I guess the save feats are a better deal for my character as given in the OP?

Second, I can get the cloak and the saving throw feats too. They stack.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

First, I like the vitriolic essence, and don't much like the "save or else" essences. I didn't want to bother with the high charisma build to avoid the enemies going "ok, I save, now what?". So if that is the only reason, I guess the save feats are a better deal for my character as given in the OP?

Second, I can get the cloak and the saving throw feats too. They stack.

A +2 to a save is not going to save you nearly as much as winning initiative and ending an encounter before you are threatened. Vitriolic Blast is nice because it bypasses SR.

Honestly, you blew 3 feats to duplicate something you could have spent 4k on... do you not see how you are horridly nerfing yourself?

Hell, take a two-level dip in Paladin (one of the variants which is more alignment-friendly... I suggest Paladin of Freedom... again from the SRD) to get Cha to saves. Now you're SAD on Charisma, and have no reason to not use your save-dependent invocations which are Save or Lose conditions.

[Particle_Man]

That's the weird thing. On the one hand I can agree that the character you suggest would be more optimal.

On the other hand, I don't wanna. :smallsmile:

Maybe I don't want to multi-class, or maybe the feel of the character would get too different for me. I'm not sure why, but I think I would have fun playing the character as given in the OP.

[Red_Dog]

This is my curse. I like them just the way they are, even knowing they are far from powerful. Heck, I can stat one up without going outside the core + Complete Arcane that intros the Warlock.

Lets see: Human Warlock, Dex 16 (improve at least the first three times), con/wis 14, str/int/cha 10 (28 points)

Feats: P-B Shot, Precise Shot, Great Fort, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Precise Shot, Extra Invocation

Invocations: Eldritch Spear, See the Unseen, that chaos 20% protection from ranged/no scent/no tracking one, Flee the Scene, Fell Flight, Eldritch Chain, Vitriolic Blast, Chill Tentacles, the dispel magic one, the improved invisibility one, shadow walk, (feat: the sending one), dark foresight.

Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, UMD.

See? Not exactly optimized, especially at high levels, but I would have fun playing it. I wonder if that would be a drag on the rest of the party, or whether the DM would have to tone down the encounters, or what?

Heck, I probably made an optimizer's fingers twitch just by my posting this. :smallbiggrin:


So, how much room is there for style, simplicity (I only used one non-core book, and that was to get the class!), and fun, vs. optimization in your games?

*awkward silence followed by a loud facepaw*...

Look... I myself generally like braking games thru play and not character optimization... But I came to realize that a moderate degree of optimization is just necessary... Just to put this into perspective. For your build =>

What would I change? The bloody feats! JUST change everything past the precise shot! Take anything you want if you are human(preferably get Improved Initiative, I came to value that feat A LOT) and than... just take Extra Invocation. Yes EVERY time.

Invocation are actually rather fun. The more you have them the better, and you get very little of them thru your progression! Why not have as many as you want so you would have LOTS of options for creative play?O_o I just don't get why such a simple variation should deter you. This is far from optimizing this character. Its just giving him/her more toys! I don't even going to go into suggesting on WHAT extra invocations you should get. Just take w/e you want! With unlimited uses per day I am sure you can find what to do with them ^^.

Just my to cents.

[Crasical]

Dual-weapons tend to be weak tea unless you've got supplemental damage boosts from somewhere.

Also, heavy armor and Dampierre's trickster-style seem to be at odds. Judging from his fighting style, I'd call him either a Rogue/Invisible Blade (what with all the feinting going on), or a Factotum.

Trying to find a way to get TWF, Heavy armor, and supplemental damage together on the same character was the part I was having trouble with.

And I used Dampierre as an example because I've been playing a Soul of Dampierre in SC5 online who wears heavy armor and wanted to see if I could port him to 3.5 or PF with some tricks. The concept was "An inventor in clockwork armor of his own devising, trying to use artifice to make up for a lack of fighting spirit and technique with his inventions to get revenge on those who killed his mentor." I was using the inventor's lack of fighting prowess and his armor being experimental and locking up on him to explain the stumbling, fumbling, and the 'fake pain' stances. I have him as a Gun Tank in pathfinder to fulfill the 'artificer' and 'heavy armor' requirments on him, though he has pop out guns instead of spring-blades in that version.

[Particle_Man]

Invocation are actually rather fun. The more you have them the better, and you get very little of them thru your progression! Why not have as many as you want so you would have LOTS of options for creative play?O_o I just don't get why such a simple variation should deter you. This is far from optimizing this character. Its just giving him/her more toys! I don't even going to go into suggesting on WHAT extra invocations you should get. Just take w/e you want! With unlimited uses per day I am sure you can find what to do with them ^^.

Just my to cents.

I guess I am just not interested in the other stuff.