I am eenveenceebuuullll~! (ntrly)

[Morph Bark]

So I was just fiddling around with a character build of mine and I ended up with this:

Elder Kride, the Doomsinger [RELEVANT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo&ob=av3n)]
Venerable Unseelie Fey (Winter) Magic-Blooded Draconic Phrenic Star Elf Good Lich (with LA buy-off, Good Lich template added at level 20)
http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/unseeliefey.shtml
http://blackmarches.wikidot.com/magic-blooded
(25 point buy: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 8, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 18)
Str 13 (+2 racial, -6 age, +4 enhancement)
Dex 13 (+2 racial, -6 age, +6 enhancement)
Con -- (-2 racial, -6 age, Lich)
Int 16 (+2 racial, +3 age, +2 Lich)
Wis 15 (+3 age, +2 enhancement, +2 Lich)
Cha 53 (+12 racial, +3 age, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +8 enhancement, +2 Lich)
Levels: Sorcerer 1 (Shield, Mage Armor, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil, Wings of Flurry), Battledancer 1 (Cha to AC), Hexblade 3 (Mettle), Ranger 1 (favored enemy arcanists), Abjurant Champion 5 (or a way for a Monk to use a shield), Swiftblade 8 (miss chances), Witch Hunter 1 (Cha to saves).
Alignment: CG.
PrC skill prereqs: Concentration at least 6 ranks, Knowledge (arcane) at least 10 ranks, Spellcraft at least 6 ranks.

Level 1: Hexblade 1, Concentration 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcane) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks. 1 skill point left

Flaws: any 2.
Feats: Dodge, Combat Casting, Sacred Vow.
Level 2: Battledancer 1. 4 skill points left
Level 3: Sorcerer 1, Concentration 6 ranks, Knowledge (arcane) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks.

Feat: Vow of Poverty
Level 4: Hexblade 2, Concentration 7 ranks, Knowledge (arcane) 7 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Level 5: Hexblade 3, Concentration 8 ranks, Knowledge (arcane) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 7 ranks.
Level 6: Ranger 1, Concentration 9 ranks. 7 skill points left.

Feats: Track (B), Shield Specialization.
Level 7: Abjurant Champion 1, Concentration 10 ranks, Knowledge (arcane) 9 ranks, Spellcraft 9 ranks.
Level 8: Abjurant Champion 2, Concentration 11 ranks, Knowledge (arcane) 11 ranks, Spellcraft 10 ranks.
Level 9: Abjurant Champion 3, Concentration 12 ranks, Knowledge (arcane) 12 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks.

Feat: Mobility.
Level 10: Abjurant Champion 4, Concentration 13 ranks, Knowledge (arcane) 13 ranks, Spellcraft 13 ranks. 1 skill point left
Level 11: Abjurant Champion 5, increase as above.
Level 12: Swiftblade 1, increase as above.

Feat: Shield Ward.
Level 13: Swiftblade 2, increase as above.
Level 14: Swiftblade 3, increase as above.
Level 15: Swiftblade 4, increase as above.

Feat: Eschew Material Components.
Level 16: Swiftblade 5, increase as above.
Level 17: Swiftblade 6, increase as above.
Level 18: Swiftblade 7, increase as above.

Feat: Minor Shapeshift
Level 19: Swiftblade 8, increase as above.
Level 20: Witch Hunter 1, maxed Concentration, Knowledge (arcane) and Spellcraft. 23 skill points in random things here or there. I like Perform (sing) for this, but it is a cross-class skill for nearly all these classes, except Battledancer. If all Battledancer skill points go into Perform (sing), another one goes towards buying a half-rank in Iaijutsu Focus and the rest also goes into Perform (sing), then we end up with 13 ranks in Perform (sing). Here we are of course assuming that if a skill ever was a class skill that the max ranks you can put in it is [your level] +3, even if using a skill point from a class that does not have it as a class skill only buys a half-rank.
Going over it again, the skill points here do not take Nymph’s Kiss into account, so that would be another 19 skill points, allowing you to max Perform (sing) and leave another 9. One should buy a half-rank in Use Magic Device, even though Kride isn’t allowed to own any items himself. But he could always pick one up in the middle of a fight to use for just a moment. Furthermore, if Elder Kride became venerable at level 1, then he has another 19 skill points due to his increased Int score over his last 19 levels. This would mean there are 28 undivided skill points.

Vow of Poverty bonus feats: Nymph’s Kiss (2), Nimbus of Light (4), Knight of Stars (6), Purify Spell (8), Nemesis (arcanists; 10), Exalted Spell Resistance (12), Holy Radiance (14), Gift of Grace (16), Intuitive Attack (18), Words of Creation (20).


HP: 12 + 19d12 = 135
BAB: +19
Sorcerer level: 11 (effective caster level 19)
Fort: +8 (base), +29 (total, unbuffed)
Ref: +12 (base), +34 (total, unbuffed and without Swiftblade’s +2 dodge bonus)
Will: +17 (base), +39 (total, unbuffed)
AC without buffs: 10 + 1 Dex + 21 Cha + 7 natural + 10 exalted + 3 deflection + 2 dodge
= 54, flat-footed 51, touch 47
AC with buffs: 10 + 1 Dex + 21 Cha + 7 natural + 10 exalted + 3 deflection + 9 shield + 6 armor + 3 dodge (without Dodge feat)
= 70, flat-footed 66, touch 57 (63 vs incorporeal)

Alter Self could be used to change into a number of creatures, but there aren’t a whole lot of good undead forms. Furthermore, you are actually allowed to turn into a Shadow or Wraith, but you do not gain the Incorporeal subtype, making it a strange option. This is why Alter Self is not on Elder Kride’s spell list.

Spells per day: 6/11/11/11/11/8
Spells known:
0. (4/9) Detect magic, detect poison, prestidigitation, read magic, 5 more spells
1. (5/5) Distract assailant (SpC), feather fall, shield, true strike, wings of swift flying
2. (5/5) Blindness/deafness, heroics (SpC), knock, mirror image, wraithstrike
3. (4/4) Haste, mage armor (greater; SpC), magic circle against evil, shivering touch
4. (3/3) Forceward, ruin delver’s fortune (SpC), trollshape
5. (2/2) Dimension door (greater; SpC), overland flight
SLAs: [link (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/psionicMonsters.html#phenric-creature)]

Attack: unarmed strike +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (1d6+7) or sickle +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (1d6+7) or heavy crossbow +27/+22/+17/+12 ranged (1d10+5)
Average Iaijutsu Focus check: 10 + 0.5 rank + 15 = 25, so 4d6 bonus damage (only with the sickle).
If necessary Kride can give himself Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting or Rapid Reload with his Heroics spell. Other Fighter feats are also optional. Martial Study (Shadow Stride) offers supernatural teleportation as a move action.

The end result:
Charisma to saves.
Charisma to AC.
Charisma to Initiative.
Spell Resistance 30 (34 against evil creatures)
Many AC-boosting spells.
50% miss chance (Ex) for single-target attacks and spells.
Shield bonus applies to touch AC, and checks to resist bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip attempts against you.
Mettle.
Evasion. (Via Ruin Delver’s Fortune.)
Undead, but immune to turn/rebuke attempts.
Can keep giving himself 20 temporary hit points at wil as a swift action.
Immune to Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies and has undetectable alignment.
Continuous (Ex) Freedom of Movement.
Resistance to all energy types 15 (or up to 25 with Abjurant Champion’s swift action Arcane Boost).
Immune to cold and electricity.
Damage Reduction 15/cold iron and Damage Reduction 10/evil and Damage Reduction 15/magic and bludgeoning.
Immunity to force effects. (Via Forceward.)
Flight through the Overland Flight spell.
And needs nothing but his own body.

Some backstory reasoning:
If Kride becomes venerable before getting a high enough enhancement bonus to his Dex from VoP, at some point he'll temporarily lose his Dodge and Mobility feats, which would cause him to be disqualified from entry into Swiftblade, so let's presume he only became venerable at the end (due to surviving for ages of course).

Furthermore, as you can see he has a +5 inherent bonus to his Charisma. This is because he read a Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 at low level. Alternatively, you might be able to gain the bonus from reading it without ever actually owning the damn thing, so he'd be fine and dandy as long as he randomly came across it or a friend let him read a copy.

Elder Kride becomes a Good Lich at level 20. He has the prerequisite caster level of 11. His LA will technically put him over level 20, but he's a non-epic character himself still.

As far as I can see the build checks out. Right? So how will this character ever get beaten by CR-appropriate encounters?*

EDIT: Changed up the build some in spell selection and race/templates.

*Keep in mind that abusing RAW loops or questionable reading results in CR-inappropriateness. This means non-epic opponents with a CR of no more than 24.

[Mystify]

You have essentially 0 offensive capability. You will never be able to defeat anything.

[JadePhoenix]

How about a level 7 Wizard?
Celerity + Empowered Shivering Touch. Only feat needed is Arcane Thesis for shivering touch.

[Suddo]

Isn't Swiftblade 9 > Abjurant Champion 5? Or am I missing something. I mean Abjurant Champion 5 is awesome but mini-time stops are awesome also.

[Randomguy]

It also fails against a box of explosive runes + dispel magic, which can be pulled off by level 5.

[Crasical]

How about a level 7 Wizard?
Celerity + Empowered Shivering Touch. Only feat needed is Arcane Thesis for shivering touch.


It also fails against a box of explosive runes + dispel magic, which can be pulled off by level 5.

I'm not entirely sure those constitute a CR Appropriate encounter. Or anything other than the GM being a ****.

[JadePhoenix]

I'm not entirely sure those constitute a CR Appropriate encounter. Or anything other than the GM being a ****.
They are indeed not apropriate, being so low CR a lv 20 character wouldn't even get any XP.

But that's very defeatable at all levels, really, specially because of the lack of offense, like Mistify said.

[tyckspoon]

How about a level 7 Wizard?
Celerity + Empowered Shivering Touch. Only feat needed is Arcane Thesis for shivering touch.

41 Touch AC + 50% miss chance from Swiftblade. Not a huge worry.


Isn't Swiftblade 9 > Abjurant Champion 5? Or am I missing something. I mean Abjurant Champion 5 is awesome but mini-time stops are awesome also.

There's a lot of dropped caster level, full BAB levels in the outlined build. AbjChamp 5 means its caster level will be something useful, instead of.. around 13, I think.


Build advice: Take a look at Pious Templar for your Mettle. Requires 2 feats for entry (True Believer and Weapon Focus, neither of which are terribly useful for much else) but it gets Mettle at 1st level instead of burning 3 on Hexblade. Also look into Monk 2 instead of Battledancer- Cobra Strike variant gets Dodge and Mobility as its 1st and 2nd level feats, and you can use the Ascetic Sorcerer feat to base the AC bonus on Charisma. Leaves you up one more net general feat choice.

[Randomguy]

I'm not entirely sure those constitute a CR Appropriate encounter. Or anything other than the GM being a ****.

How about a pit fiend, then? Greater dispel magic gets rid of all your buffs, and then he should hit once or twice every full attack. You can only hit him on a natural 20 after he casts unholy aura (but you could get a few shots in if you pick up wraithstrike or spend a round casting true strike) and you can't damage him without iajitsu focus, thanks to his DR.

[deuxhero]

It also fails against a box of explosive runes + dispel magic, which can be pulled off by level 5.

Let's not forget liquid nitrogen leaks.

[absolmorph]

41 Touch AC + 50% miss chance from Swiftblade. Not a huge worry.



There's a lot of dropped caster level, full BAB levels in the outlined build. AbjChamp 5 means its caster level will be something useful, instead of.. around 13, I think.


Build advice: Take a look at Pious Templar for your Mettle. Requires 2 feats for entry (True Believer and Weapon Focus, neither of which are terribly useful for much else) but it gets Mettle at 1st level instead of burning 3 on Hexblade. Also look into Monk 2 instead of Battledancer- Cobra Strike variant gets Dodge and Mobility as its 1st and 2nd level feats, and you can use the Ascetic Sorcerer feat to base the AC bonus on Charisma. Leaves you up one more net general feat choice.
Also, switch out Shield Specialization and Shield Ward for Parrying Shield to open up another slot.

However, I must ask: how does this build kill enemies?

[Hirax]

I'd be mostly worried about blasphemy. CL boosting to make it an autokill is trivial. I'm also curious how this build is supposed to kill anything though? It's cool that it doesn't rely on any equipment, but it needs some offense to make up for the fact that its few weaknesses are very easily exploitable.

[JadePhoenix]

41 Touch AC + 50% miss chance from Swiftblade. Not a huge worry.

Miss chance is bypassed by True Strike, a level one spell. Getting +20 to hit on touch attacks would indeed require a higher level character, though.
Of course, at level 7 when this comes up (and when it's a relevant challenge), it's an insta-gib.
Also, any monster with a spammable save-or-suck and decent hp (say, most devils) would eventually win in a battle of attrition at any level.

[legomaster00156]

The biggest flaw I noticed was that he's venerable, but you never made him immune to aging. All that the enemies need to do is wait a few more years before setting their plans into motion.

[PEACH]

I think this thing loses to level appropriate encounters just by virtue of the fact they could probably continue doing their business while you attempted to threaten them. Or they could hit you with No Save, just sucks. Or, really, no save, just take minor damage. You could probably kill this by spamming Swarm of Crystals hard enough at it.

[Shadowknight12]

You need to nab Etherealness, incorporeality or an equivalent. Something that lets you ignore adverse terrain, most forms of damage and prevents you from becoming an actual target. That should take care of a lot of things.

Also, for all your pesky damage/killing needs, I recommend nabbing some force damage.

[kardar233]

Let's not forget liquid nitrogen leaks.

Well played, tovarisch.

This is why you need full Cold immunity.

I'm not seeing any immunity to [Death] effects or [Mind-Affecting], so enough DC optimization will punch straight though you.

Really, I'd just Forcecage you and then fill the cage with a Fell Drain Kelgore's Grave Mist or similar. That only takes a 13th-level Wizard. You only have the spare spell slots for 2 Dimension Doors, so I don't even need to hit you with a True Strike Dimensional Anchor.

[jguy]

The biggest flaw I noticed was that he's venerable, but you never made him immune to aging. All that the enemies need to do is wait a few more years before setting their plans into motion.

It's an Elan. They are true immortals and don't have a max age. The fact that he is even venerable means he is over 1000 years old!

[jguy]

Also, couldn't Antimagic field just wreck you? For one, it turns off your Con item, dropping you down to 7 Con and disqualify you from a lot of your feats by dropping your Dex.

[Mystify]

Yeah, a simple antimagic field will implode all of the defenses,

[Morph Bark]

I'll mostly just answer things that weren't already answered by others. :smallsmile:


Build advice: Take a look at Pious Templar for your Mettle. Requires 2 feats for entry (True Believer and Weapon Focus, neither of which are terribly useful for much else) but it gets Mettle at 1st level instead of burning 3 on Hexblade. Also look into Monk 2 instead of Battledancer- Cobra Strike variant gets Dodge and Mobility as its 1st and 2nd level feats, and you can use the Ascetic Sorcerer feat to base the AC bonus on Charisma. Leaves you up one more net general feat choice.

While it would be awesome if that worked, it would not be possible due to BAB prerequisites for Abjurant Champion (and Pious Templar also has a BAB prerequisite IIRC).


How about a pit fiend, then? Greater dispel magic gets rid of all your buffs, and then he should hit once or twice every full attack. You can only hit him on a natural 20 after he casts unholy aura (but you could get a few shots in if you pick up wraithstrike or spend a round casting true strike) and you can't damage him without iajitsu focus, thanks to his DR.

Greater dispel magic would be either targeted (thus having 50% miss chance) or an area dispel (in which case it would only disable one spell maybe).

I thought of adding wraithstrike, but just left it out for now. It is indeed a great way to hit others more easily for this guy. Is his DR of the "magic and/or good" kind though? Because this guy passes that. All his weapons gain a +5 enhancement bonus and pierce DR/good thanks to Vow of Poverty.


Miss chance is bypassed by True Strike, a level one spell. Getting +20 to hit on touch attacks would indeed require a higher level character, though.
Of course, at level 7 when this comes up (and when it's a relevant challenge), it's an insta-gib.
Also, any monster with a spammable save-or-suck and decent hp (say, most devils) would eventually win in a battle of attrition at any level.

Hmmm, good points. I thought of also making him a Necropolitan (and ditch Touch of Golden Ice for something else) and thus making him immune to ability drain and physical ability damage, but then I'd also need a way to make him immune to turn/rebuke attempts.


Well played, tovarisch.

This is why you need full Cold immunity.

I'm not seeing any immunity to [Death] effects or [Mind-Affecting], so enough DC optimization will punch straight though you.

Really, I'd just Forcecage you and then fill the cage with a Fell Drain Kelgore's Grave Mist or similar. That only takes a 13th-level Wizard. You only have the spare spell slots for 2 Dimension Doors, so I don't even need to hit you with a True Strike Dimensional Anchor.

I have 6 level 4 spell slots per day, so if I take Dimension Door I have more than two tries. The two unfilled slots you see are spells known, not per day (he's a Sorcerer after all, not a Wizard).


Also, couldn't Antimagic field just wreck you? For one, it turns off your Con item, dropping you down to 7 Con and disqualify you from a lot of your feats by dropping your Dex.

An Antimagic Field wrecks me pretty bad yeah. I would no longer have my protective spells (alter self, greater magic armor, shield and haste), deflection bonus to AC from VoP and DR 10/evil from VoP. (I would also be unable to use one of my primary modes of attack and would no longer have true seeing from VoP either, as a sidenote.)

However, my Dex and Con would not get dropped because the enhancement bonuses to my ability scores are Extraordinary, due to coming from Vow of Poverty.


And the big one:

You have essentially 0 offensive capability. You will never be able to defeat anything.

Well, first off, the idea was more that it is hard to defeat him, rather than that he easily defeats you (as with so many other builds). The build philosophy here is not "the best defense is a good offense", but "the best defense is a goddamn awesome defense".

Secondly, he's still got Wings of Flurry, which he casts at caster level 19. If the enemy is evil, he can throw on a Consecrate Spell metamagic to increase those 19d6 points of damage to 19d8. Untyped. Sure, they'll get a Reflex save, but if he does that while standing within 5 ft of them they get a -15 penalty to saves. :3

[kardar233]

A 15th-level wizard can neutralize you in two rounds without much trouble. Turn 1, Quickened True Strike and Forcecage. You Dimension Door out. Turn 2, Quickened Dimensional Anchor and another Forcecage. You're now essentially useless.

In fact, if Celerity's involved, you can do it in a single turn as a 13th-level Wizard. Quickened True Strike, Dimensional Anchor, Celerity, Forcecage. If you can afford to shave a level somewhere you can dip Swordsage for one of the Shadow Movement maneuvers or Leaping Flame.

[Doorhandle]

Can it escape from being buried under 300 tonnes of rock, G.M thrown or otherwise?

Not to mention it's not fire immume, only resitant. 20d6 a round still going to penatrate that even on minium damage, and lava isn't all that hard to find at Lv 20.

[Morph Bark]

A 15th-level wizard can neutralize you in two rounds without much trouble. Turn 1, Quickened True Strike and Forcecage. You Dimension Door out. Turn 2, Quickened Dimensional Anchor and another Forcecage. You're now essentially useless.

In fact, if Celerity's involved, you can do it in a single turn as a 13th-level Wizard. Quickened True Strike, Dimensional Anchor, Celerity, Forcecage. If you can afford to shave a level somewhere you can dip Swordsage for one of the Shadow Movement maneuvers or Leaping Flame.

The Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink maneuvers require line of sight and effect, so only work in a Forcecage with bars. Then again, a Forcecage that is windowless will prolly also hinder your opponent, since he cannot target you or affect you with AoE spells. Swordsage does not even need to be dipped since one casting of Heroics can give Martial Study (Shadow Stride) so you can teleport out as a move action (if the cage is barred).


Can it escape from being buried under 300 tonnes of rock, G.M thrown or otherwise?

Not to mention it's not fire immume, only resitant. 20d6 a round still going to penatrate that even on minium damage, and lava isn't all that hard to find at Lv 20.

You can teleport out from underneath. :smalltongue:

And yes, environmental damage is the bane of Elder Kride. But he should be smart enough to stay away from lava. Being high level does not necessarily mean you suddenly go live in places incredibly hazardous to yourself. :smallwink:

Furthermore, that 20d6 damage is only when fully submerged. Otherwise it is only 2d6 IIRC, and the same goes for pools of acid. That doesn't penetrate his resistances and should it be because he fell in there he has got his Overland Flight and Featherfall spells to prevent or delay that fate.

[Psyren]

Secondly, he's still got Wings of Flurry, which he casts at caster level 19. If the enemy is evil, he can throw on a Consecrate Spell metamagic to increase those 19d6 points of damage to 19d8. Untyped. Sure, they'll get a Reflex save, but if he does that while standing within 5 ft of them they get a -15 penalty to saves. :3

Nitpick - Wings of Flurry is typed (Force.) It's also subject to SR.

Where's that -15 penalty coming from?

[georgie_leech]

Nitpick - Wings of Flurry is typed (Force.) It's also subject to SR.

Where's that -15 penalty coming from?

That unseelie fey winter thing he linked to gives a penalty to saves to creatures within 5 feet equal to his Charisma modifier. Not that he's got a lot he can do with it, but I suppose another PC wouldn't mind his save or suck's/lose's suddenly be no saves.

[Morph Bark]

Nitpick - Wings of Flurry is typed (Force.) It's also subject to SR.

Where's that -15 penalty coming from?

Prettymuch what georgie_leech said. Whilst Elder Kride does not have a whole lot in the way of making people roll saving throws (other than Touch of Golden Ice and Wings of Flurry), it does help any of his allies too. This is why I thought he'd be a good candidate for Leadership.

Looking at Wings of Flurry again though, it appears I've remembered its level wrongly and it's level 4 rather than 3. No big deal otherwise though.

[Psyren]

That unseelie fey winter thing he linked to gives a penalty to saves to creatures within 5 feet equal to his Charisma modifier. Not that he's got a lot he can do with it, but I suppose another PC wouldn't mind his save or suck's/lose's suddenly be no saves.

Ah, I see it now. Well, aside from it being Dragon material, there's a lot that it doesn't hurt - undead, constructs, oozes, and fey for instance. Still better than nothing though I'm sure.

[Randomguy]

I thought of adding wraithstrike, but just left it out for now. It is indeed a great way to hit others more easily for this guy. Is his DR of the "magic and/or good" kind though? Because this guy passes that. All his weapons gain a +5 enhancement bonus and pierce DR/good thanks to Vow of Poverty.

A Pit fiend's DR is Good and Silver, so no, you can't pass that.
Pit fiends also have decent SR, so your wings of flurry will fail about half the time, and he'll save for half about half the time when you do bypass SR as well unless you're standing right next to him when you cast the spell (And it tends to be hard to catch up to people who can greater teleport at will).

How exactly did you get your caster level up to 19?

[Morph Bark]

A Pit fiend's DR is Good and Silver, so no, you can't pass that.
Pit fiends also have decent SR, so your wings of flurry will fail about half the time, and he'll save for half about half the time when you do bypass SR as well unless you're standing right next to him when you cast the spell (And it tends to be hard to catch up to people who can greater teleport at will).

How exactly did you get your caster level up to 19?

Ah well, that's a shame. But at least Elder Kride could still get away from him. (Might have to switch up his race/template though. At least that'll get rid of Light Blindness, since that can also be very hindering.)

Caster level is equal to BAB thanks to the Abjurant Champion capstone. For Wings of Flurry, now that he is Draconic, Elder Kride's caster level is actually 20 since dragonbloods cast it at +1 caster level.

[Morph Bark]

Switched race from Drow to Phrenic Star Elf, increasing Cha by 4 more, granting psionic teleport as a PLA 3/day and removing the Light Blindness weakness. Furthermore, Elder Kride now has Fission as a PLA 1/day, which could easily save him if he encounters a single opponent suited up to defeat him specifically.

[Randomguy]

A few more examples: A standard mailman build with forceward (completely blocking wings of flurry) and heart of earth (for stoneskin).
This would have access to 9th level spells, which means disjunction first round to get rid of all buffs. If you feel like using fission, you'll just get another disjunction thrown at you. (Don't you just love spontaneous casting?) And there's no risk of destroying items like there normally is, thanks to your VoP.

To actually deal damage, there's maw of chaos, wings of flurry (You can't evade without ruin delver's fortune) and vortex of teeth.

Similarly, a standard sorcadin gish would have the same ways to defend against you and dispel your defences, but would deal damage using wraithstrike, sure strike and polymorphing into a sun giant to beat you to death with a hammer.

The main fault with this build is that the build seems to be geared for melee combat (gish classes, nearly full BAB, so on), but you can barely deal damage in melee without iajitsu focus, which you didn't optimise in the slightest, and your offensive capabilities are mostly casting, which isn't too good.

I suggest you focus much more on melee and less on casting. Pick up more cha to X stuff. Get higher strength. Five levels in paladin (possibly of freedom) gets you Cha to Saves, Smite evil (small damage bonus, huge to-hit bonus which you can power attack away (get a 2h weapon like a quarterstaff)) and perhaps most importantly Turn Undead, which you can use like 20 times each day to power divine feats, like Divine Might for Cha to damage or Sacred Vengeance for +2d6 damage. And you can use both at the same time.
If you want, after Paladin 5 you can go sorcerer 1/Ab Champ 5/ Swfitblade X and still have everything you had before (You can get mettle from witch slayer or pious templar).

[Morph Bark]

Disjunction still allows a Will save though, so I'm not worried about that. This build isn't really geared for either melee combat or casting, just surviving and getting away. The point isn't for him to beat others, it's for him to be unbeatable by others. As a PC Elder Kride won't really be suitable, but as an NPC he can pose a bit of a challenge, unconventionally.

To make him be more of a damage dealer, you can throw out six levels of either Abjurant Champion or Swiftblade (though he can no longer be a Lich if he loses Abjurant Champion 5) and put in a level of Factotum and five levels of Iaijutsu Master. For spells and feats opened up you should focus on things that get the target flat-footed (getting Sapphire Nightmare Blade as a maneuver would be great for that) and Power Attack is a good choice too. If Vow of Poverty is let go of he can get Slippers of Battledancing and should get items that make him immune to acid, fire and sonic energy.

A level of Marshal for either Cha to Cha checks, pumping Cha skills and a level of Binder for Naberius would also be wicked.

So throwing out Swiftblade 8 and putting in Factotum 1/Iaijutsu Master 5/Marshal 1/Binder 1 would get rid of his (Ex) haste and the 50% miss chance on a lot of things, but increases his damage and social skills incredibly. This would be lots more fun to play as a player, but at least I still have Elder Kride as a possible encounter from the DM side.

[Randomguy]

Disjunction still allows a Will save though, so I'm not worried about that.

The will save is only for magic items. You don't get a will save to avoid having your spells dispelled.

If you're going to throw something out, get rid of the 3 levels of hexblade. You're CG, so you lose all benefit from those levels except BAB, HD, saves and mettle, and you can get mettle with only 1 level instead of 3 using the witch slayer PrC from Tome of Magic.

[Morph Bark]

The will save is only for magic items. You don't get a will save to avoid having your spells dispelled.

If you're going to throw something out, get rid of the 3 levels of hexblade. You're CG, so you lose all benefit from those levels except BAB, HD, saves and mettle, and you can get mettle with only 1 level instead of 3 using the witch slayer PrC from Tome of Magic.

Then why does it not say so specifically in the spell description? :smallconfused: Under Saving throw it says "Will negates (object)", which is stated elsewhere to mean that it also affects objects, not that only objects get a Will save.

And the Hexblade levels, aside from Mettle, are necessary for BAB requirements, as stated before. If VoP is gotten rid of though, then he can shift to being CN and get Cha to saves vs spells and his curse debuff. Alternatively, it can be switched for Duskblade 3 if the rest of the build would be geared more towards gishing (based off Sorcerer of course) rather than full-on melee via Iaijutsu.

[TuggyNE]

Then why does it not say so specifically in the spell description? :smallconfused: Under Saving throw it says "Will negates (object)", which is stated elsewhere to mean that it also affects objects, not that only objects get a Will save.

It may be a little unclear, but I'm afraid it's not ambiguous in the actual text:

All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined. That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item.

A better wording might have specifically called out that spells and spell-likes gain no saving throw, or simply added a "see text" to the summary in the header.

[Morph Bark]

It may be a little unclear, but I'm afraid it's not ambiguous in the actual text:

A better wording might have specifically called out that spells and spell-likes gain no saving throw, or simply added a "see text" to the summary in the header.

It may not look ambiguous in the text, but it doesn't look that way in many spells that have the same entry on saving throws, like Magic Mouth or Sculpt Sound.

Even otherwise though, his touch AC is the one least boosted by his spells and they'll need to hit that one for spells. If I put Deflect back into there in place of Knock, he can cast that as an immediate action to get, IIRC, +11 to touch AC and normal AC against one attack, so even with True Strike he could make sure to not get hit (a gish with a truestrike touch spell would probably have +24 or so to hit, so +44 with True Strike; with Deflect and Haste Elder Kride would have 59 touch then, requiring a 15 to hit).

[PEACH]

I'm still not certain how this would actually beat anything spamming no save no attack spells, such as swarm of crystals. Sure, the damage is crap, but so is yours, and a level 20 psion has better tricks to get away than you do.

[TuggyNE]

It may not look ambiguous in the text, but it doesn't look that way in many spells that have the same entry on saving throws, like Magic Mouth or Sculpt Sound.

Curiously, neither of those spells mention their saving throw in the text at all, relying on the summary lines to imply that both objects and creatures get a saving throw. However, disjunction's provision for creatures to receive a save for their buffs is conspicuous by its absence next to the explicit provision for magic objects to avoid being permanently wiped out. That is: the entry for saving throw applies only to the explicit text referring to it, as is usual for spells with several combined effects and only one or a few that allow a save.

Again, though, it's not as clear as could be desired, by any means. Glitterdust does a considerably better job differentiating, for example.

[Morph Bark]

Curiously, neither of those spells mention their saving throw in the text at all, relying on the summary lines to imply that both objects and creatures get a saving throw. However, disjunction's provision for creatures to receive a save for their buffs is conspicuous by its absence next to the explicit provision for magic objects to avoid being permanently wiped out. That is: the entry for saving throw applies only to the explicit text referring to it, as is usual for spells with several combined effects and only one or a few that allow a save.

Again, though, it's not as clear as could be desired, by any means. Glitterdust does a considerably better job differentiating, for example.

I personally figured it specifically mentioned that because the item could use the owner's Will save instead. But yeah, some things could've been clearer.


I'm still not certain how this would actually beat anything spamming no save no attack spells, such as swarm of crystals. Sure, the damage is crap, but so is yours, and a level 20 psion has better tricks to get away than you do.

In a case like that, he'd simply need to get away. Unless the damage is typed, in which case he has resistances and DR.

[PEACH]

Getting away from a full caster (even a full psionic one) is pretty difficult, and your DR is quite low.

EDIT: Also, how could I forget. Magic Missiles fry you. Not subject to any of your DR, and when optimized, pretty likely to take a chunk out of you.

[Morph Bark]

Getting away from a full caster (even a full psionic one) is pretty difficult, and your DR is quite low.

EDIT: Also, how could I forget. Magic Missiles fry you. Not subject to any of your DR, and when optimized, pretty likely to take a chunk out of you.

DR 15 isn't all that low I'd say, though when compared to damage rather than the DR of other creatures I suppose so.

Magic Missile I'll give you. For a bit I thought other force effects would block it (including Mage Armor), but apparently not. It is still subject to Spell Resistance though, so if cast by an evil creature I wouldn't worry too much about it, since I figure with non-questionable ways of caster level pumping you'd about make it an even split of hit-or-miss. Non-evil though, then it'd be trouble.

[Hirax]

Assay spell resistance make your SR pretty much trivial.

[PEACH]

Even without assay spell resistance, SR 34 is still probably hit or miss for a level 20 caster who spent his money on the basic, "this always increases your CL" stuff. An optimized Force Missile Mage probably wouldn't have to worry, and you'd be blasted for a few hundred a round, not that there is much that an optimized force missile mage can't do.

As for the DR: DR 15 isn't bad, but optimized blasting will take a pretty big chunk out of that. Granted, I'm not quite sure how you'd do optimized blasting with a 3d4+1d4 per PP spell (and I can't recall if it would actually hit your DR 15 or only be affected by one of your DR 10s), but I'm pretty certain a psion who just picked up that power and used the (fairly simple) Vigor+Share Pain trick could out heal and out damage you pretty easily, though they'd be more susceptible to actually level appropriate offenses.

[Morph Bark]

Assay spell resistance make your SR pretty much trivial.

Put Forceward on the spell list, replacing Wings of Flurry. That takes care of Magic Missile and the like. Unless there is a spell that increases SR, because that would probably be even better.


As for the DR: DR 15 isn't bad, but optimized blasting will take a pretty big chunk out of that. Granted, I'm not quite sure how you'd do optimized blasting with a 3d4+1d4 per PP spell (and I can't recall if it would actually hit your DR 15 or only be affected by one of your DR 10s), but I'm pretty certain a psion who just picked up that power and used the (fairly simple) Vigor+Share Pain trick could out heal and out damage you pretty easily, though they'd be more susceptible to actually level appropriate offenses.

I'm not even sure how multiple types of DR work together. Does just the highest applicable one work, or do they all factor in seperately? Because in the latter case he's actually got about thrice the DR assumed up 'til now.

Due to the power being rather short range though, with his 50 ft movement speed and teleportation abilities Elder Kride should be able to stay out of the way.

[Mystify]

Put Forceward on the spell list, replacing Wings of Flurry. That takes care of Magic Missile and the like. Unless there is a spell that increases SR, because that would probably be even better.

force missile mage will still get you, they can ignore stuff like that.



I'm not even sure how multiple types of DR work together. Does just the highest applicable one work, or do they all factor in seperately? Because in the latter case he's actually got about thrice the DR assumed up 'til now.
only the highest applicable one works.

[Morph Bark]

force missile mage will still get you, they can ignore stuff like that.

Can they ignore SR, or can they ignore Forceward?

[Mystify]

Can they ignore SR, or can they ignore Forceward?
Actually, looking it up, I was wrong. They ignore shield and brooches of shielding, but not forceward.

[PEACH]

All you need to get rid of Forceward is a nice dispel magic, greater dispel magic, or disjunction. GDM is incredibly likely to get rid of the spell, and disjunction is a guarantee. Combine the GDM with general blasting tricks to get that and a lot of missiles out in a round, and you're still pretty screwed.

[Morph Bark]

All you need to get rid of Forceward is a nice dispel magic, greater dispel magic, or disjunction. GDM is incredibly likely to get rid of the spell, and disjunction is a guarantee. Combine the GDM with general blasting tricks to get that and a lot of missiles out in a round, and you're still pretty screwed.

See, I know there is a spell that allows immediate-action dispelling for a short while that Sorcerers can cast and that is around level 4 or so, but I can't for the life of me find it again. That spell would help against GDM and the like pretty well.

[gkathellar]

However, my Dex and Con would not get dropped because the enhancement bonuses to my ability scores are Extraordinary, due to coming from Vow of Poverty.

Nope.


These feats are thus supernatural in nature (rather than being extraordinary abilities, as most feats are).

Easy line to miss, but Antimagic wrecks you even more than you thought.

[Hirax]

See, I know there is a spell that allows immediate-action dispelling for a short while that Sorcerers can cast and that is around level 4 or so, but I can't for the life of me find it again. That spell would help against GDM and the like pretty well.

You mean counterspell? Perhaps you're thinking of battlemagic perception from HoB or duelward from Dragon Magic? You're down a few caster levels, you're not going to be able to put the odds in your favor for counterspelling.

[Randomguy]

You mean counterspell? Perhaps you're thinking of battlemagic perception from HoB or duelward from Dragon Magic?

Duelward is from spell compedium, not dragon magic.

Elder Kride can only counterspell GDM with regular Dispel Magic, which means your dispel check is only 1d20+10. On average, you can dispel or counterspell a level 10 caster's spells. Against a level 20 full caster, you have 0% chance of successfully counterspelling/dispelling.
And that's all if you actually had Dispel Magic as one of your spells known.

[Morph Bark]

Nope.

Easy line to miss, but Antimagic wrecks you even more than you thought.

Drat, yeah, missed that. That would lower his unbuffed AC by 19 inside an Antimagic Field. He'd still have a pretty huge AC for being in an Antimagic Field and not using any items, and he would be nerfed less badly than non-VoP characters with lots of magic items or full casters (with a few spell exceptions), but since he relies on VoP and some of his spells pretty badly, he'd come out far below.

I suppose I'd better take out VoP and just would need to have him rely on items instead then. Picking items that give enhancement bonuses to natural armor, insight/sacred/luck/deflection/dodge bonuses to AC, a +6 Cha item, something that grants Freedom of Movement, etc.

He'll also need an item that increases his DR, if there are any.


Duelward is from spell compedium, not dragon magic.

Elder Kride can only counterspell GDM with regular Dispel Magic, which means your dispel check is only 1d20+10. On average, you can dispel or counterspell a level 10 caster's spells. Against a level 20 full caster, you have 0% chance of successfully counterspelling/dispelling.
And that's all if you actually had Dispel Magic as one of your spells known.

It's not 0%, but it is definitely less than 10%, making it far from ideal indeed.

With removing VoP though, I know there are items that selectively make you immune for a single spell. Elder Kride could get some of those for Disjunction and GDM. Forgot what they were called though. I think they were somewhere in a Forgotten Realms book?

[Hirax]

With removing VoP though, I know there are items that selectively make you immune for a single spell. Elder Kride could get some of those for Disjunction and GDM. Forgot what they were called though. I think they were somewhere in a Forgotten Realms book?

That's the spellblade weapon property in the Player's Guide to Faerun you're thinking of. It isn't effective against area spells, so you couldn't make one to counter disjunction. If you want to just stick to the dispel magic line, you'd also need to have a different weapon for GDM, reaving dispel, and all the other variant dispels out there.