It does happen! TPK in 4e

[Katana_Geldar]

Last week I was running the second session of Encounters, the Elemental Chaos themed one, and I got a TPK.

I still have mixed feeling about it, but to those think a Total Party Kill is impossible in 4e, you're wrong: it is.

And it wasn't even against an unwinnable enemy, I was just doing, more or less, what Wizards was telling me to do for that night.

* They forgot about the healing potions I gave them last week.
* None of tgen was a cleric, all over them were strikers or very strikery
* They rolled badly
* I rolled well
* They made a series of stupid mistakes, such as focusing on the elementals when it was the minions bringing them down, and provoking opportunity attacks when bloodied.

In the end they were all making death saves around the table...and none of them rolled a 20! In the end we had a few spectators to see them all die.

I think some are coming back as their characters, minus healing surges, but some have the option to make new characters which I hope a few at least take up on.

[tcrudisi]

It's very possible to have a TPK in 4e. I've experienced it once and almost experienced it twice. When I was DMing, I've done it to quite a few groups, especially in LFR.

[The New Bruceski]

If I ever play a game I cannot lose, I hope I at least get Ashley Judd as a girlfriend.

[Leolo]

Welcome to the club, here is your ID card. :smallbiggrin:

[WitchSlayer]

We almost got TPK'd in 4e Encounters, it was the Neverwinter encounter and we were fighting the dragon encounter. We had a healer and everything but we were absolutely devastated, barely managing to kill the dragon, two out of the three players dead, including myself.

[Kurald Galain]

I still have mixed feeling about it, but to those think a Total Party Kill is impossible in 4e, you're wrong: it is.

Seriously, did anyone ever say that?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Not to be harsh, but they played so badly that's no wonder they died.
Now if they were:
-a balanced party, with all roles covered
-using their resources properly (aka not forgetting potions)
-played strategically (kill minions first)

AND
-they died

It would actually prove a point.

[Leolo]

@kurald: Sure.

But i know many people that say something about 4e based on wrong or no information about the game.

Plus 4e may be very DM friendly, with good tools and easy monster creation / selection. But playing the monsters right needs some game mastery and experience. Especially if we talk about synergy and monster teamwork.

@dark sephirot: if they'd have played perfectly and made no faults, and would still be TPKed, the encounter would be to hard.

But I have already killed balanced groups with appropriate encounters, so even minor tactical faults can lead to this.

[tcrudisi]

Not to be harsh, but they played so badly that's no wonder they died.
Now if they were:
-a balanced party, with all roles covered
-using their resources properly (aka not forgetting potions)
-played strategically (kill minions first)

AND
-they died

It would actually prove a point.

Well - your post really didn't prove anything, either.

Using their resources properly? Maybe they didn't have enough healing surges left to be able to utilize to get back 10hp. Or they didn't have enough minor actions to do it.

Killing minions first? Maybe - if you have the right party. But, if I'm at a table, you better believe I will do everything I can to take down the dangerous monsters first. That is very rarely minions. In fact, if I'm sitting at a table as a player and someone suggests killing the minions, I'll look at them like they are crazy and ask them to explain their logic. It's just so rarely the smart move.

Balanced party? Well - balanced parties are overrated. Very overrated. The trick is not to have a balanced party; the trick is to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses. You don't have a Leader? Either find a way to ensure you don't need one or find a way to heal yourself. It's easy to do: maximize your defenses and offensive output while taking utilities that allow you to negate attacks. It's very possible to not ever need a healer in 4e. I don't buy the whole "balanced party" schtick that gets thrown around.

My point is that we weren't there. We don't know what their character's capabilities are and they might have played to their characters strengths and just got their butts kicked anyway. It happens, especially when there's randomness involved.

[Kurald Galain]

Balanced party? Well - balanced parties are overrated. Very overrated. The trick is not to have a balanced party; the trick is to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses. You don't have a Leader? Either find a way to ensure you don't need one or find a way to heal yourself. It's easy to do: maximize your defenses and offensive output while taking utilities that allow you to negate attacks. It's very possible to not ever need a healer in 4e. I don't buy the whole "balanced party" schtick that gets thrown around.

This needs to be quoted for truth.

I've played in parties lacking each of the four basic roles, and they all work. They work differently, and they have different strengths and weaknesses, but they do work. Heck, one of the most effective (if terminally boring) parties is using only Elf Rangers, no other classes.

[Leolo]

In fact most parties that focus on one tactic can solve 80% of their encounters better than a balanced party.

They will just have a harder time against the other 20%.

[Hopeless]

This is why area effects are so darn important!

But would drawing forth and drinking a potion count as a minor action and would that provoke and attack of opportunity?

Could they have moved away to drink that potion if the above was the case?

Strikers and no cleric given its 4e not as crippling although having one is actually handy although would it have been any different a result since they were apparently not thinking things through?

What was their impression of that encounter?

Did you remind them about those potions I know it might not seem necessary but I was wondering about their mindset during that tpk.

At least 2 games i played in were effective tpk's mostly because the dm didn't understand that you don't throw in the kitchen sink against a band of 4 or so 1st level characters or ignore a request about getting hold of a ranged weapon when they're within a settlement before going off to fight a pack of devils led by a winged variation given only the wizard and a rogue had the means to strike at range.

Effective tpk because he allowed us to bypass the first one whilst i gave up on his game after the 2nd because it wasn't getting any better (These were online yahoo group games).

[Kurald Galain]

But would drawing forth and drinking a potion count as a minor action and would that provoke and attack of opportunity?
No OA, but two minor actions and a free hand. The rules make using potions in combat very impractical for several classes/builds.


Could they have moved away to drink that potion if the above was the case?
Sure, but if you move and drink, the enemy can charge you, likely doing more damage than the potion restored.

[Leolo]

While TPKs are something rare (and should be) I do believe an experienced DM who plays tactical and does not restrict himself to protect the group has a good chance to kill a group of inexperienced player characters on their first adventuring day.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think another question is: when as a DM should you stop a TPK from happening? Obviously if the party brought it on themselves (taunting the dragon who is obviously too strong for them, ignoring obvious hints as to not make a particular choice, etc). But what if its stupid mistakes on a newbs account? Say a newer player playing an AoE, damage heavy character who misplaced a spell (not realizing it affects allies) and heavily damages his allies. Or in a non-TPK situation, should the DM react appropriately to stupid actions due to being a newb or give him/her a break and help them learn the ropes and what not? This is all relevant, we are starting a serious campaign with a fairly new player.

[Kurald Galain]

I think another question is: when as a DM should you stop a TPK from happening?

That heavily depends on the DM, but the main point to remember is that losing combat doesn't mean that everybody dies now. For example, PCs can run away, or surrender, or be left unconscious and wake up five minutes later.

[Leolo]

@Mesi: Ask your players about this before you start the campaign.

A game that is really deadly can be fun, and a game that lacks danger can be dull.

Helping the players can have positive and negative effects. But players should know what kind of game they will be playing, or you will end with frustrated players.

[Surrealistik]

Who needs balanced parties when you can have 5 Warlords?


And TPKs definitely happen.

Mine was from a killer DM who engaged in an arms race with his PCs to the point where we simply couldn't compete with his CL+7-8 encounters that also had terrain features which conspired against us (like solid walls his mobs could move/shoot through, but we couldn't), no matter how much cheese we employed.


On the subject of minions, the fact is that a group of four minions deals twice the damage output of a standard collectively, and have more action economy/bodies with which to execute flanking and tricks like Aid Another, Grab, Bullrush, etc. In the meanwhile, killing a minion is equivalent to killing 1/4th a standard, so it's generally not a waste to put one down unless:

A: You deal damage > than 1/4th a same level standard's HP.

AND/OR

B: You have an ally that can slaughter minions wholesale as with an enlarged Winged Horde or Beguiling Strands.

AND/OR

C: There is a priority target that has combat dictating powers/traits.

Of course, if you can attack and kill multiple minions, it's almost always worth it to put them down, barring an ally that can do it more efficiently as in condition B.

Generally, the only thing that makes a given creature more pressing than an equal level/size minion group are its special abilities/condition outputs, which have to account for the huge 2:1 damage spread (and probably more with minion death attacks which are increasingly common).

[DrBurr]

I'm not really surprised by this TPKs are completely possible in 4e some times the dice just hate you or you make a key mistake tactically. My group has been TPKed twice.

The first time was an issue of range and poor dice rolls
And the second was a complete failure of the group tactically, specifically splitting up in the giant battle to end a campaign arc when 3 of them play rather squishy characters.

And both times we had a balanced party with a character filling each role.

[erikun]

I've had two near-TPKs with 4e. One involved several characters being pushed into a deep fire pit, and another involved the defender being knocked to 0 HP and bull-rushed off a cliff. Both were published adventures with the DM using the recommended strategies, so you could hardly blame it on a killer-DM attitude.

[Giggling Ghast]

If I ever play a game I cannot lose, I hope I at least get Ashley Judd as a girlfriend.

Is that a Star Trek: The Next Generation reference?

As I'm running with a group of noobs, near-defeat has loomed several times now, but it's always been because they forgot about some ability they had or just piss-poor tactics. And sometimes I've thrown fights because I either planned poorly or forgot about some ability the monsters should have used.

[Katana_Geldar]

Can I add that the minions had crossbows? Only one of the players could make ranged attacks.

[Surrealistik]

Makes sense; well played, tactical minions with ranged attacks are some of the deadliest mobs in the game if you have no crowd control (and even if you do, since they'll tend to spread so that AoEs can't multi-target them).

[Katana_Geldar]

Up until the third round, they were on the other side of a river from the players. Then I felt sorry for the players and moved them in closer. I also pointed out that they shouldn't be concentrating on the ones just in front of them.

But it was strange, as usually with this group (I ran most of last season with some of them) when they get seriously challenged in combat, they rally and play very well so I have trouble catching up. But it never happened for some reason.

So really, I think they kinda deserved it. The other DMs were giving me high fives.

My fiance was running a game at the next table and had a very different night. He had a more balanced party and kept rolling badly. It's funny how that happens.

[Kurald Galain]

Up until the third round, they were on the other side of a river from the players.

That's not so much an issue of a balanced group, but an issue of having a controller. A good controller will shut down a group of archers across the river without raising a sweat. A group without such a controller may well be in trouble.

[Katana_Geldar]

Well, they had strikers or very strikery defenders. No controller, no leader.

And Gary just wasn't with them that night. One guy rolled two d20s at once (forget what it was but it was a special attack of his) and both were 3's. I hardly rolled above 10, and that was the minimum I had to roll to hurt them.

[The New Bruceski]

Is that a Star Trek: The Next Generation reference?


Yay! Someone got it!

[Giggling Ghast]

Yay! Someone got it!

Yeah, I remember watching that episode years later and thinking, "Damn, Wesley really hit that one out of the park, didn't he?"

[Bayonet Priest]

TPKs happen in 4e. I remember a fight with a lich and his minions that wiped out the party, luckily he let us live for his own nefarious purposes.

We almost TPKed in my second ever game of 4e too. Needlefang Drake Swarms, like 7 of them. In the end the party avenger was able to keep the range open and plink the last one to death with a longbow before it got him. Everyone else was on the ground making death saves.

[zerombr]

every 4E game I've played in Pbp, (and each I have read) have all had above average encounter levels, and there's yet to even have been a fatality.

[MeeposFire]

TPKs obviously still happen though what has been reduced are flukey TPKs brought about due to a single saving throw. In 3e in particular it would be easy to kill a party due to a single ability. For instance a balor walks into a room filled with a moderate level party and just uses unholy word once. Immediate TPK with no save. On an actual experience that happened I had a party get surprised by a bodak. He got in close using a disguise (it was actually in the written adventure) and then exposed his face which promptly (and surprisingly) killed off 3/4s of the party due to a flukey roll. 4e monsters can screw over a party but they still do not tend to kill party members in one action or no actions. The monsters will screw you over and kill you over multiple rounds...

[Vknight]

I've almost killed my party with any type of encounter.
And I've almost killed them on a individual basis several times

If your players don't have a solution for a problem then you can wreck then with the right set up

[Badgerish]

I've been on the receiving end of 3 almost-TPKs (1-2 PCs escaped) but never a full TPK.

I've GMed 1 full TPK (The Darksun Encounter series, penultimate fight of the underground section) and a party defeat (6 PCs: 2 dead, 1 escaped, 3 captured by criminals, 1 captured by criminals and wanted for murder/killing guards/consorting with Drow*)


The Darksun encounters TPK was a result of bad luck, bad tactics and strong foes.
There was a strong theme of it being a drag-down fight, with at least 3 20's rolled for death saves and two uses of Healing Spirit (heals two people) meant that so many PCs got knocked down only to get up and be knocked down again. I saw the danger in the encounter and changed the starting position of a couple of the enemies to make them slightly less effective**.

* He was a muppet, but not guilty of this
** two of the enemies where brutes with a free attack when an adjacent enemy is bloodied. The official encounter had them starting together, which was dangerously synergistic.

[Mando Knight]

We almost TPKed in my second ever game of 4e too. Needlefang Drake Swarms, like 7 of them. In the end the party avenger was able to keep the range open and plink the last one to death with a longbow before it got him. Everyone else was on the ground making death saves.

That doesn't count. The plural of "Level-Appropriate Swarm" is "TPK" (except possibly when your party is filled with at-will area attacks of not-insignificant damage).

[Kratos1810]

My party was nearly TPK'd but our Wizard and Sorcerer made it out with our bodies in tow. My Shadar-Kai Swordmage was the last to go, sadly were only 5 minutes away from the city when he died. I rolled a 20, but I had no surges remaining :smallfrown:. Still, it was epic that he lasted a nearly forty minute drive before kicking the bucket.

[tcrudisi]

My party was nearly TPK'd but our Wizard and Sorcerer made it out with our bodies in tow. My Shadar-Kai Swordmage was the last to go, sadly were only 5 minutes away from the city when he died. I rolled a 20, but I had no surges remaining :smallfrown:. Still, it was epic that he lasted a nearly forty minute drive before kicking the bucket.

Note: if you would spend a healing surge but have none remaining, you are instead placed at 1 hp. Yes, this includes rolling a 20 on a death save.

[Conundrum]

Also, one of your surviving allies could have made a Heal check to stabilise you and prevent you from needing to roll death saving throws any more.

[Kratos1810]

Wish I knew that then D: aww well

[tcrudisi]

Yesterday, I was extremely close to TPK'ing the party.

I have 5 players. Yesterday, at one time, I had 3 of them unconscious and a 4th with less than 10 hp. The only one who wasn't bloodied was an Illusionist Wizard who had not taken any damage.

If I had not warned them about how lethal my boss fights could be, they would have wiped. My warning encouraged them to buy healing potions. It was the Wizard who gave up his whole turn using a healing potion on the Runepriest that allowed the party to scrape by. The Runepriest then used a daily heal to bring the other two back up, used the last heal on herself, and that was just enough to win. Although they finished the fight with 2 people unconscious.

All-in-all, it was a very fun 3-round combat. :smalltongue:

[Leolo]

One odd thing i have learned about 4E:

The more a DM uses encounters above the appropriate encounter level, the less deadly the game is.

That might sound weird, because obviously higher level monsters are more dangerous. But the reason to use them is often: "My game is not deadly enough" which leads to the point that the DM has not found a way to make a game deadly yet. Maybe because he is not playing and selecting the monsters to their advantage, or because he has no good grasp of what his players are capable or is not using all available options.

How deadly the game is heavily depends on the DM.