Heretic Cleric

[Corwin_of_Amber]

I have recently learned of a feat called Heretic of the Faith. Basically, it lets you violate your diety's code of conduct as long as it furthers his interests. It also lets you choose a domain he does not grant, based on your heresy. I would like to design a character with this in mind, but I'm not sure which diety/justifications would be good for me.

The character is a LN Cleric of Heironeous (maybe). The idea behind him is that he upholds the virtues of law through questionable means.

I want him to have a General/Commander mentality. As such, I really like the Inquisition, Planning, Time, and War domains.

As part of his heresy he uses armies of undead in the service of Law and his diety. He does not kill/perform profane acts for the sole purpose of creating undead, but he has no qualms with brutally murderin his enemies and desecrating their remains through undeath. He also believes that he is entitled to raise deceased allies so they may further serve their god.

As a sub-theme I want him to focus on debuffing through dispelling/counterspelling (Divine Defiance, Inquisition, Divine Magician for Wizard dispel effects).

I'm considering Human Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Churce Inquisitor 1/Contemplative 10. That gives me 4 domains + Divine Magician.





What is a good justification for the Time domain as part of my heresy? I can't think of anything that isn't trite.



I want my character to have a generally low Str score and rely on the OC's capstone for melee power when he's forced into combat. Aside from Knowledge Devotion, what feats would be useful to add damage that don't require Str scores (like Power Attack)?



I want to take Wild Cohort for a replacable Mount. How can I get Ride as a class skill before OC?



Are there any dieties, that fit with OC's flavor, that would work better for this character type?



What are some good Wizard, non-Cleric dispels for Divine Magician?



Any other general advice would be great.

[Telonius]

The Time domain power is that you get Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, and a few of the spells are related to quick movement and making things permanent.

Building off that, a few possibilities for the justification.
- Virtue is unbounded by time. Those loyal in life would be loyal after death (justifying undead-ness as well).
- Honor or dishonor is eternal. What happens to a person's remains has no effect on the choices that person made during their life.
- Swift justice. Use whatever means you need to bring the guilty to heel, to answer for their crimes.
- In war, the timing of a strike is as important as the force behind it.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

- In war, the timing of a strike is as important as the force behind it.

Ah, this is good. It plays into the aspect of outplanning/outmaneuvering with Contingency/Time Stop and strategy via Legend Lore/Foresight.

[Averis Vol]

it seems to me like your more-so describing a cleric of St. cuthbert. heironeus is all about the good and protection, law is only another step on the path to justice. animate dead is also quite an evil act, so just be wary, i believe somewhere in the PHB/DMG it says that if you cast evil spells long enough it corrupts your alignment.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

it seems to me like your more-so describing a cleric of St. cuthbert. heironeus is all about the good and protection, law is only another step on the path to justice. animate dead is also quite an evil act, so just be wary, i believe somewhere in the PHB/DMG it says that if you cast evil spells long enough it corrupts your alignment.

Well, to quote the Heretic of the Faith feat: "You can grossly violate your deities code of conduct, but not your class alignment restriction, without risk of loss of spells or class abilities. If you are a cleric, your alignment may be 2 steps away from your respective deity's alignment instead of just one."

So this lets me have an ends-justify-means mentality.

I read up on St. Cuthbert on the Living Greyhawk pdf, he does have a better fit, but lacks the War domain. I could et around this via the clause in Heretic that allows me to choose one non-granted domain.

Thanks.

[erikun]

I have recently learned of a feat called Heretic of the Faith. Basically, it lets you violate your diety's code of conduct as long as it furthers his interests.
Hmm, interesting. I don't suppose the feat would allow creating a LG Cleric of Wee-Jas/Radiant Servant with the Sun domain and the ability to rebuke undead, would it? :smallbiggrin:

[Elric VIII]

I want my character to have a generally low Str score and rely on the OC's capstone for melee power when he's forced into combat. Aside from Knowledge Devotion, what feats would be useful to add damage that don't require Str scores (like Power Attack)?

I recently played a character like this. I was a fallen Cleric of Heironeous that became a Cleric of Mechanus/Lawful Ideal. I played Human Paragon/Bone Knight/Contemplative dip. Depending on how many feats you have to spare, Mounted Combat/Spirited Charge/Valorous Weapon can greatly increase your damage output. Your Smite ability would only add 9 damage, but with those items/feats, you end up doing 4x damage on a mounted charge.

DMM: Persist or normal Persist can get you perpetual buffs to increase your damage output.


I want to take Wild Cohort for a replacable Mount. How can I get Ride as a class skill before OC?


Based on the Alternate Ways to Get New Class Skills thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832), there are no good ways for this.


Hmm, interesting. I don't suppose the feat would allow creating a LG Cleric of Wee-Jas/Radiant Servant with the Sun domain and the ability to rebuke undead, would it? :smallbiggrin:

Well, Wee Jas is LN (LE), so it should allow LG. It also lets you take a single domain, provided it matches the reason you are taking the feat. I'm not sure about the rebuking part, though.

[gbprime]

I used Heretic of the Faith on a cleric once. Schism in the church, the faction the character (and the PC's) backed lost, and the PC found himself excommunicated. To his utter horror, he lost his spell casting ability, as if the deity himself approved the earthly coup.

I got to roleplay a cleric losing his faith, and he went a very extended period of time (4 levels) having no spell casting ability (but still able to use a staff or two). He finally found out that his deity had been usurped, and the "false cult" was this impostor deity's attempt at overhauling the clergy to accept him. The PC took Heretic of the Faith upon hitting 12th level, regained his spell casting ability, and led a mini crusade of sorts after his former religion, which was strangely acting a LOT more strict than pre-schism days and enacting harsh new rites on the populace...

If there was a point to this, it's that "Heretic of the Faith" is one of those awesome role-play enabled feats and really should be treated as more than a game mechanic to give a cleric a different domain or rationalize acting outside the tenets of his faith.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

I recently played a character like this. I was a fallen Cleric of Heironeous that became a Cleric of Mechanus/Lawful Ideal. I played Human Paragon/Bone Knight/Contemplative dip. Depending on how many feats you have to spare, Mounted Combat/Spirited Charge/Valorous Weapon can greatly increase your damage output. Your Smite ability would only add 9 damage, but with those items/feats, you end up doing 4x damage on a mounted charge.

I don't like to be very dependent on specific items, but I guess this works.


I used Heretic of the Faith on a cleric once. Schism in the church, the faction the character (and the PC's) backed lost, and the PC found himself excommunicated. To his utter horror, he lost his spell casting ability, as if the deity himself approved the earthly coup.

I got to roleplay a cleric losing his faith, and he went a very extended period of time (4 levels) having no spell casting ability (but still able to use a staff or two). He finally found out that his deity had been usurped, and the "false cult" was this impostor deity's attempt at overhauling the clergy to accept him. The PC took Heretic of the Faith upon hitting 12th level, regained his spell casting ability, and led a mini crusade of sorts after his former religion, which was strangely acting a LOT more strict than pre-schism days and enacting harsh new rites on the populace...

If there was a point to this, it's that "Heretic of the Faith" is one of those awesome role-play enabled feats and really should be treated as more than a game mechanic to give a cleric a different domain or rationalize acting outside the tenets of his faith.

Well, I want to play a Cleric with this mentality from level 1 (or whatever the starting level). It seems that your DM made your character taking that feat a large part of the campaign. I can't help but feel that there was some collaboration done beforehand, unless your DM expected you to lose all of your powers and just deal with it.

[Calanon]

Yep, Every 2 weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234624)

Seriously... the same thing OVER AND OVER AGAIN! ...Humans are such repetitive creatures...

Anywho! I'm feeling moderately intelligent today so I'll try and help the best I can... *Reads OP* Hmm...? I see... trying to justify adding the time domain while serving Heironeous... That is quite the stretch, which you can justify by stating that time is the ultimate form of law, it is liner, organized, and very straight forward which HEY lets face it is what Lawful truly means :smallamused: The time domain allows you to bend the rules of time and space (just a little) to get what you need done... That is your Heresy... You choose to defy the natural order of things by constantly adjusting time and space over and over attempting to get things right. Fitting in the use of Undead for Heironeous is also another stretch... and I mean MASSIVE stretch :smalleek:

Ah I remember once upon a time I made a build for a friend called "The Champion of the ArchKnight" ...Basically a Cleric of Heironeous that could do... well just about anything really :smalltongue: Heresy of the faith for the Luck domain however... we did that campaign from level 1 to 20 and instead of conforming with us all and wanting to do an epic continuation... He decided to become an Exarch :smallsmile: ...what a tool...

Got really annoying when on the last day of the campaign he was spamming miracle over and over again until he ran out of spell slots :smallannoyed:

[Wavelab]

I have recently learned of a feat called Heretic of the Faith. Basically, it lets you violate your diety's code of conduct as long as it furthers his interests. It also lets you choose a domain he does not grant, based on your heresy. I would like to design a character with this in mind, but I'm not sure which diety/justifications would be good for me.

The character is a LN Cleric of Heironeous (maybe). The idea behind him is that he upholds the virtues of law through questionable means.

I want him to have a General/Commander mentality. As such, I really like the Inquisition, Planning, Time, and War domains.


Emphasis mine.

Please see this (http://deathnote.wikia.com/wiki/Light_Yagami). It might not have much to do with the crunch but it can provide excellent fluff(yes you are allowed to base your characters off of famous anime).

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Yep, Every 2 weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234624)

Seriously... the same thing OVER AND OVER AGAIN! ...Humans are such repetitive creatures...

Anywho! I'm feeling moderately intelligent today so I'll try and help the best I can... *Reads OP* Hmm...? I see... trying to justify adding the time domain while serving Heironeous... That is quite the stretch, which you can justify by stating that time is the ultimate form of law, it is liner, organized, and very straight forward which HEY lets face it is what Lawful truly means :smallamused: The time domain allows you to bend the rules of time and space (just a little) to get what you need done... That is your Heresy... You choose to defy the natural order of things by constantly adjusting time and space over and over attempting to get things right. Fitting in the use of Undead for Heironeous is also another stretch... and I mean MASSIVE stretch :smalleek:

Yeah, that would be the place where I recently learned of the feat and decided it fits with a character I had been considering.

Mostly, it's not the Time domain that is important, it is the spells within that I like. It's a matter of fitting cruch I like into the fluff I want. You actually got one of those trite bits of reasoning I decided to scrap. If you know of a domain that includes the 5th-9th level spells of the Time domain that fits better, I would be just as happy using that.

I'm thinking about using St. Cuthbert instead, as was suggected above. The specific diety is not too relevant, I just want to avoid using the Cleric of an ideal option for this, since I don't feel that it works as well.


Ah I remember once upon a time I made a build for a friend called "The Champion of the ArchKnight" ...Basically a Cleric of Heironeous that could do... well just about anything really :smalltongue: Heresy of the faith for the Luck domain however... we did that campaign from level 1 to 20 and instead of conforming with us all and wanting to do an epic continuation... He decided to become an Exarch :smallsmile: ...what a tool...

Got really annoying when on the last day of the campaign he was spamming miracle over and over again until he ran out of spell slots :smallannoyed:

Amusing...


Emphasis mine.

Please see this (http://deathnote.wikia.com/wiki/Light_Yagami). It might not have much to do with the crunch but it can provide excellent fluff(yes you are allowed to base your characters off of famous anime).

That's pretty cool. Switch "purge the world of all evil," with "pure the world of all disorder," and you've hit the nail on the head. Although I was considering making him middle aged or old, rather than an angsty teen.:smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

I want to take Wild Cohort for a replacable Mount. How can I get Ride as a class skill before OC?
Human paragon! what it isn't good for? start your first level with that for moar skill points and pick ride for your adaptive skill if you really want it. however, Wild Cohort doesn't in and of itself require any actual ranks in Ride. in addition, the DC for ride checks is really low

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm

putting maybe a rank or two CC (depending on your dex bonus) should be good for the common uses of it. a factotum dip with able learner on the side works too, plus it opens up every other skill in the game. while you're not a skillful character, options always make the game more fun.

can I ask what it is that drew you to ordained champion? is it the capstone that lets you get your wis bonus onto attack? or is it the fluff since your guy works for hieronious? I only ask since you're losing 2 caster levels already with OC, which would make a level of HP or factotum early on a little harder to swallow, though you'd still be getting 9ths. if the bonus to attack is the only reason, then consider complete champion's Law devotion feat. while you don't appear to get the law domain, so you can't sacrifice it for the feat for free, you could either switch one of contemplative/heretic's bonus domains to law, or actually spend a real feat slot on it since it scales more quickly than your wisdom bonus is likely to

if you're interested in ride and a wild cohort, as someone else mentioned, five nations' Bone Knight is a disgustingly good PrC, plus it's focused around raising undead which you've already expressed interest in, and it requires a couple ranks in ride (a stumbling block to many who would enter) 9/10ths divine casting and a bunch of neat immunities make it powerful. fluffwise, you have to be okay with having nasty bonemail armor permanently fused to your skin.

what's the draw of the inquisition domain? I see it mentioned a lot in charop. is it the spells, or the domain power?

here's a nice list of spells that could be useful for your divine magician ACF

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8344

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Human paragon! what it isn't good for? start your first level with that for moar skill points and pick ride for your adaptive skill if you really want it. however, Wild Cohort doesn't in and of itself require any actual ranks in Ride. in addition, the DC for ride checks is really low

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm

putting maybe a rank or two CC (depending on your dex bonus) should be good for the common uses of it. a factotum dip with able learner on the side works too, plus it opens up every other skill in the game. while you're not a skillful character, options always make the game more fun.

can I ask what it is that drew you to ordained champion? is it the capstone that lets you get your wis bonus onto attack? or is it the fluff since your guy works for hieronious? I only ask since you're losing 2 caster levels already with OC, which would make a level of HP or factotum early on a little harder to swallow, though you'd still be getting 9ths. if the bonus to attack is the only reason, then consider complete champion's Law devotion feat. while you don't appear to get the law domain, so you can't sacrifice it for the feat for free, you could either switch one of contemplative/heretic's bonus domains to law, or actually spend a real feat slot on it since it scales more quickly than your wisdom bonus is likely to

if you're interested in ride and a wild cohort, as someone else mentioned, five nations' Bone Knight is a disgustingly good PrC, plus it's focused around raising undead which you've already expressed interest in, and it requires a couple ranks in ride (a stumbling block to many who would enter) 9/10ths divine casting and a bunch of neat immunities make it powerful. fluffwise, you have to be okay with having nasty bonemail armor permanently fused to your skin.

what's the draw of the inquisition domain? I see it mentioned a lot in charop. is it the spells, or the domain power?

here's a nice list of spells that could be useful for your divine magician ACF

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8344

Human Paragon seems very good. But as you point out, I can probably get away with a few CC ranks and Dex, since I just want the mount so I can double move and cast at the same time (plus, a general on a steed is nice and iconic).

The reason I chose OC is because I always liked the way the class looked, but never had much of an excuse to play it. TBH, it might not really fit with the character because it is mostly combat-oriented and I'm thinking I want to command groups of undead and buff them, rather than venturin into combat myself.

The Wild Cohort is for an easily replacable mount that doesn't get killed by a stiff breeze in later levels.

I like Inquisition because it has a nice buff to dispelling/counterspelling (which I want to be a sub-theme to this character). Although the spells aren't that great, I guess. What I really need is Time domain spells on the Inquisition domain power.

That handbook is quite good, too bad it's incomplete. Arcane Turmoil and Undead Lieutenant are great finds.

BTW, where can I find Bone Knight?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Helm (Forgotten Realms) is a ridiculously Lawful God, with access to the Planning, Law, Strength and Protection domains.

"Helm, also known as the Vigilant One and The Watcher, was the god of guardians, protection and protectors. He was worshiped by guards and paladins both, long being seen as a cold and focused deity who impartially took the role of defender and sometimes also enforcer. His activities in the Time of Troubles caused the folk of Faerûn to look differently on the Watcher."

Emphasis mine.

Bone Knight is from 5 Nations (Eberron book).

[Venger]

Human Paragon seems very good. But as you point out, I can probably get away with a few CC ranks and Dex, since I just want the mount so I can double move and cast at the same time (plus, a general on a steed is nice and iconic).

The reason I chose OC is because I always liked the way the class looked, but never had much of an excuse to play it. TBH, it might not really fit with the character because it is mostly combat-oriented and I'm thinking I want to command groups of undead and buff them, rather than venturin into combat myself.

The Wild Cohort is for an easily replacable mount that doesn't get killed by a stiff breeze in later levels.

I like Inquisition because it has a nice buff to dispelling/counterspelling (which I want to be a sub-theme to this character). Although the spells aren't that great, I guess. What I really need is Time domain spells on the Inquisition domain power.

That handbook is quite good, too bad it's incomplete. Arcane Turmoil and Undead Lieutenant are great finds.

BTW, where can I find Bone Knight?

yep, that's why I asked. I figured dex plus a rank or two ought to be good. mounts are mostly for mobility anyway, assuming that since you're going for the whole dark general commanding undead from horseback, I assume you're wearing heavy armor, cutting your movement, so a mount would help with effective spellcasting range.

hey, having a class you've always wanted to play but never got a chance to in your build is a perfectly good reason to include it. we play this game for fun, after all.

the inquisition domain's spells aren't terrible, and dispells are great. it's really interesting flavorwise for your guy, which is always fun.

as I said, bone knight is in an obscure eberron setting book called "Five Nations" which is really great for campaign detail if you're playing an eberron game now or some time in the future. good break points for bone knight are 4, 7, or finishing it at 10. while bonus domains are great, bone knight's features are debatably better. plus you have d10s, which suit your general aesthetic of being the general on the battlefield better than 10 levels of contemplative's d4s.

[Elric VIII]

If you don't like the Inquisition spells you could take a look at the feat Planar Touchstone for the Cataloges of Enlightenment. This requires 9 ranks in Know (planes) and grants you a domain power. You can find it in Planar Handbook.

Also, if you do go for Bone Knight (one of my favorite classes, btw) you get your own skelton mount that acts as a Paladin Mount.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

I looked over Bone Knight. That seems like the class that was designed for the concept (and it is easily rendered setting-neutral). Am I to understand that Bone March + Fill the Ranks gives you extra undead HD commanded equal to 4xBone Knight level?

For making it non-eberron, would proposing changing Fill the Ranks to Create Undead, rather than making karnathi skeletons/zombies be fair?


I think I will do something like this: Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 2/Bone Knight 10/Contemplative 2/OC 3-4. Bone Knight even counts for my Smiting bonus since it is a rebuking class.

For feats, I am considering: Heretic of the Faith & Extra Turning at 1. Divine Defiance at 3. Extend Spell from Planning domain, through OC (having taken War at level 1) at level 5. Planar Touchstone: Inquisition Domain power at 6. For 9, 12, 15, and 18 I will probably take some combination of Quicken, Persist, and Easy Metamagic.

How does that look?


EDIT: I was also thinking that a good justification for Time domain and undeath (along with the undead transformation that accompanies Bone Knight) would be a desire to achieve immortality to enforce the word of order.

[Venger]

I looked over Bone Knight. That seems like the class that was designed for the concept (and it is easily rendered setting-neutral). Am I to understand that Bone March + Fill the Ranks gives you extra undead HD commanded equal to 4xBone Knight level?
glad it is. yes, that is exactly how it works. while fill the ranks fills up stuff in your bone march pool, bone march can be used to control other undead too. beware though, no undead can have more HD than your bone knight level, so it won't be too useful at first.


For making it non-eberron, would proposing changing Fill the Ranks to Create Undead, rather than making karnathi skeletons/zombies be fair?
ask your DM. like I said, since the things you create with Fill the Ranks are automatically assigned to your Bone March pool, none of them can have more HD than your bone knight level, so your options with create undead would be somewhat limited initially. if he'll allow it to function as a normal rebuke pool with you allocating your HD as you like, then go for it, but if you're going by straight RAW, it won't work very well.



I think I will do something like this: Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 2/Bone Knight 10/Contemplative 2/OC 3-4. Bone Knight even counts for my Smiting bonus since it is a rebuking class.


For feats, I am considering: Heretic of the Faith & Extra Turning at 1. Divine Defiance at 3. Extend Spell from Planning domain, through OC (having taken War at level 1) at level 5. Planar Touchstone: Inquisition Domain power at 6. For 9, 12, 15, and 18 I will probably take some combination of Quicken, Persist, and Easy Metamagic.

How does that look?
looks like a pretty strong build. divine defiance is a particularly good thematic and mechanical choice for a dispel-focused guy. I didn't know you wanted to do that, now your initial choice of inquisition domain makes more sense. where is the inquisition domain's planar touchstone? what does it do? easy metamagic is dragon magazine content, which some DMs are apprehensive of, but if yours allows it, that's cool.



EDIT: I was also thinking that a good justification for Time domain and undeath (along with the undead transformation that accompanies Bone Knight) would be a desire to achieve immortality to enforce the word of order.
that makes sense. you want your own time to stand still, giving you the immunities that bone knight enjoys.