Monsters with domination (and metagaming)

[Raimun]

Do you think the Monster-abilities that dominate are too powerful and more importantly, not fun?

I haven't DMed 4th edition and my knowledge of 4e monsters isn't that great. I've only briefly glanced through the first Monster Manual and so far I've seen that they mostly have their own attacks. This is different from 3.5 where mere glancing is enough to determine what the monsters are capable of doing ("Ok, so that monster can cast Dominate Person as spell-like ability. I know that spell too.") This limited knowledge has been kind of intentional on my part, since it's a sure way to not metagame too much and means I know about as much as my character does.

Anyway, my character has fallen victim to domination a few times, despite having one of the highest, if not the highest Will in the party. The domination effect lasted every time the whole encounter (unless the caster was killed), with no chance to Save. This has been kind of a downer since it means you can't do any choices yourself and you're actually harming your party (my At-Wills are pretty lethal). All that for one slightly good (15+) roll of D20. :smallsigh:

All PC-Domination powers I've ever seen have been "Dominated (Save ends)". So I'm asking do some monsters really have this powerful Domination? And if they do, don't you think that is a bit too much? Challenge is good but 4e ain't that Grimdark... and challenge means you should have a fighting chance.

I'd research this myself but as I mentioned above, I want to limit my metagaming knowledge. Overall, not knowing about your enemies adds excitement... except in this case. :smallamused:

[Kurald Galain]

I've been playing 4E since it first came out, and I've seen a "dominate until the end of the encounter" ability precisely once. Practically every monster domination effect lasts for one turn or save-ends, and dominating monsters are not all that common to begin with.

And aside from that, there's numerous abilities that simply remove an effect, regardless of whether that effect allows a save.

[tcrudisi]

Do you remember what monsters it were that dominated you until the end of the encounter? I don't remember ever seeing that in 4e. Save ends where the PC fails a bunch of times? Sure! Ability that can't even be saved against? No.

(If you can't remember the monsters, what level were you at the time?)

[Raimun]

@Kurald: Effect removal? Are they Leader-abilities or are they available to other classes as well? Items perhaps?

@tcrudisi: One was a succubus or something (Sabinesque). One was a gitzerai or githyanki mentalist. I never remember which are which but they were those silver sworded astral pirate-guys.

I'm asking since I suspect the monster rules have been either misinterpreted or intentionally changed.

[Kurald Galain]

@Kurald: Effect removal? Are they Leader-abilities or are they available to other classes as well? Items perhaps?
Yes, yes, and yes.


I'm asking since I suspect the monster rules have been either misinterpreted or intentionally changed.
That certainly appears to be the case.

[Leolo]

The succubus ability was propably charming kiss. It is no domination, but prevents the charmed PC from attacking the succubus and has no save.

[Ashdate]

@tcrudisi: One was a succubus or something (Sabinesque). One was a gitzerai or githyanki mentalist. I never remember which are which but they were those silver sworded astral pirate-guys.

Succubus, as per the MM1, have a standard action dominate "until the end of the succubus's next turn", and to my research none of the gitzerai or githyanki in the MM1 have a dominate effect.

I think the Passion Devil (MM3) has a pretty good example of how dominate (and for that matter, stunned) effects should generally work on monsters. Domination shouldn't be easy (at least, not on regular mooks); requiring a two-part effect (with save ends) I think is a pretty fair way of doling out dominate effects.

[Raimun]

Thank you, everyone. I think that about covers my original question.

On a related note, do you know which items remove effects? Saving throws are already covered but I don't think anyone at the party can simply remove effects. We're now at mid-Paragon.

[Giggling Ghast]

There is a Level 5 monster from Threats to the Nentir Vale called a Boggle that gets Dominate. It actually disappears while it's using the ability and appears next to the PC when he/she makes a save; the implication is that it's actually possessing the PC.

[Excession]

The Meenlock from MM3 is the nastiest dominate I could find.

If you fail the first save it changes to until end of encounter, though you do get a save when you take 10 or more damage. A bonus to saves power and a good solid slap will break you out of it. You also deal an extra 2d6 damage while dominated, so it could get nasty.

[Epinephrine]

On the topic of "not fun," that is my principle objection to dominate. I avoid using monsters that dominate, stun, or lock players out of reality, as by my player's reactions, they don't enjoy such things. Being denied actions sucks.

The funny thing is that immediate interrupts that redirect an attack to a party member (e.g., choker), actions that cause PCs to attack other PCs (many), and auras that cause melee attacks to target random foes (e.g., foulspawn berserker) don't take away enjoyment, but still result in using the party's attacks against them. When I hit the warlock/paladin with an attack that fogged his mind making him think that his ally was his enemy, he gleefully shouted something like, "she's a doppleganger! Kill her!", and attacked. Of course, he still got a complement of actions on his turn, which keeps it fun.

[Kurald Galain]

On the topic of "not fun," that is my principle objection to dominate. I avoid using monsters that dominate, stun, or lock players out of reality, as by my player's reactions, they don't enjoy such things. Being denied actions sucks.

I disagree. Doing nothing for a turn may be boring, but being dominated gives you all kinds of fun roleplaying opportunities.

[Epinephrine]

I disagree. Doing nothing for a turn may be boring, but being dominated gives you all kinds of fun roleplaying opportunities.

Well, you can say that you find it fun, but it doesn't change my players' reactions. They don't like it. If it's not fun for my players, I won't tend to use it. My other point was that there are dominate-like options that don't seem to bother them as much.

[malachi]

I disagree. Doing nothing for a turn may be boring, but being dominated gives you all kinds of fun roleplaying opportunities.

For the player? I thought that being dominated didn't let you do, you know, anything. The dominator gets to choose your action each turn (including free actions like talking).

[Epinephrine]

For the player? I thought that being dominated didn't let you do, you know, anything. The dominator gets to choose your action each turn (including free actions like talking).

True, strictly speaking, the dominated PC can't take any actions, so they have no chance to role play. In the case of the non-dominate powers (e.g., a Mindscrambler's Scrambled Mind), they allow for all the roleplaying you might want.

[Kurald Galain]

For the player? I thought that being dominated didn't let you do, you know, anything. The dominator gets to choose your action each turn (including free actions like talking).

Well, you could play it that way, but that just leads to every player hating domination status effects.

It's more fun if dominated player would ask "what is thy bidding, master" or something like that.