Schrodinger's Bear Warrior

[Andorax]

Ok, help me out here folks.


The Berserker Strength alternate class feature (PHB II, p33) replaces a Barbarian's normal rage-per-day ability with an ability that kicks in every time the barbarian drops below 5xBarbarian level.

-2 AC, +4 Str, +2 to saves, DR 2/-.

These abilities scale similiarly to greater/mighty rage. Note...NOT a Con increase.

There's no limit to the number of times you can enter a berserker state, nor can you end it voluntarially...it only shuts off when you're unconscious, helpless, or healed above the berserker threshold.

Also of note is "Any effect that would normally apply only during your rage applies whenever your berserker strength is active."



The Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior, p16) is a prestige class for barbarians who, when they rage, polymorph into bears.

A bear warrior "...can transform into a bear (similar to the polymorph spell) while in a rage or frenzy. His only limit on the number of times per day he can assume a bear form is the number of times per day he enters a rage or frenzy, and the bear warrior returns to his own form once the rage or frenzy ends."


"...the ability score bonuses granted by rage or frenzy are replaced by the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution bonuses appropriate for the bera form taken." See chart, p17, but for example sake...the black bear form is +8 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con.

"...a bear warrior doesn't gain the bear's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores when he takes bear form, nor does he regain any hit points when he transforms. However, his current hit points increase due to his new Constitution, as normal for a rage ability."



So....

Tharagh, Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior 1, has a 16 Str and Con. His hit point total (normal and healthy) is 80, and he has taken the Berserker Strength alternate class feature.

Tharagh is knocked down to 30 hit points in battle.
1 - His Berserker Strength kicks in automatically.
2 - His Bear Form takes over, replacing the "mere" +4 Str with a +8 Str, +2 Dex, and +4 Con.
3 - Increasing his Con by 4 increases his hit points by 16, to 46.
4 - This puts him over the "threshold", cancelling his Berserker Strength, and thus his Bear Form.
5 - This LOWERS his hit points back below the threshold, reactivating his Berserker Strength and Bear Form.
6 - Return to 4.


Is Tharagh reduced to a quivvering mass of ever-polymorphing flesh until he is either healed enough to stay above the threshold or damaged enough to stay below it?






Bonus question: What if Tharagh takes the feat Extend Rage (Complete Warrior, p97).

"Benefit: Each of the uses of your rage or frenzy ability lasts an additional 5 rounds beyond its normal duration."


There is precident for extending durations beyond a non-specific, event-based duration (Concentration +3 rounds, bardic music that ends 5 rounds after the bard stops singing, etc.)

[dextercorvia]

Fortunately, HP gained from a Con increase don't count as healing.

[Namfuak]

Fortunately, HP gained from a Con increase don't count as healing.

I feel like there must be some pun-pun like way to use this to make an infinite loop...

[dsmiles]

An infinite loop like that would break the game. Literally, the game itself would glitch out, and you would just stand there and shift from angry berserker to not-quite-as-angry bear and back again an infinite number of times. Like when Mario gets stuck bouncing on a turtle shell on the stairs (back when you couldn't back the screen up).

[Snowbluff]

Too bad there isn't a way to cause him to polymorph again to gain the bonuses again...

[Starbuck_II]

That is awesome. You sir, get a cookie. :smallbiggrin:
So I guess this character concept is unbearable.

[teslas]

I can't answer your first question, either. DM fiat steps in, of course, and fixes it, but anything past that point is a matter of opinion with little method to make rules-supported, logical arguments any better on any side of a disagreement.

For your bonus question: I'd say that yeah, Extend Rage would put off the quivering mass problem for five rounds and work how you feel it should. If I remember correctly, you can take it multiple times, so 10 rounds is absolutely usable. Losing all of that CON while already injured, however, might not do you any favors, so having someone nearby ready to hit you with some HP might be wise.

I mean, honestly, this is in the lower half of threatening things a Barbarian can do. If they want to spend a feat to walk around at half health (or lower) as they charge into melee range of things with nigh single-digit AC, there's really no reason not to let them.

I'd also say pick up Reckless Rage, just to further throw your AC into the toilet, and a more universe-breaking +2 CON.

[dextercorvia]

Fortunately, HP gained from a Con increase don't count as healing.

Quoting for emphasis. This means he doesn't come out of the Berserker Strength until one of the other conditions is met, or he receives actual healing. Also, temp HP won't bring him out either.

Now if you had a rage ability that healed you, then you could go all infinite loop.

[Andorax]

dextercorvia, Con bonuses aren't "healing", but that isn't relevant. Tharagh's "threshold" to be raging is 35 hps (40 hps if the DM is generous and allows the bear warrior levels to "count" as barbarian levels).

At 16 con, he has 30 hps (below threshold). When he goes up to 20 con, he 'gains' 16 hps up to 46 (above threshold). The threshold is completely arbitrary and independant of Tharagh's Con score.


teslas, there's no need to take it twice. Taking it once (imho) is all that's needed, because every 5 rounds it "blinks" (runs out, drops below threshold, starts up again, and begins counting 5 rounds down again).



And yes, I had considered adding Reckless Rage into the mix. For that matter, a Mountain Raging, Reckless Raging Goliath Bear Warrior that's large in bear form as early as 1st level "black bear" is exactly the character concept I was contemplating...before I realized that there was a potentially serious *glitch* in the system, and came here to see if anyone had any suggestions how to resolve it.



It's not high-op, but even without being able to control his rages, he's still able to do some serious damage with a 3d6 large greataxe...good enough for a playable concept anyways.

[Keld Denar]

Milk it! Take Intimidating Rage. Then when you get to the sweet spot that causes your divide by cucumber error, you rage, turn into a bear, stop raging, rerage, etc, you will get to make an arbitrarily large number of intimidate checks. You could literally stack everyone up to panicked in the blink of an eye. "Run for the hills, its the Bear-not-bear!"

[Piggy Knowles]

Milk it! Take Intimidating Rage. Then when you get to the sweet spot that causes your divide by cucumber error, you rage, turn into a bear, stop raging, rerage, etc, you will get to make an arbitrarily large number of intimidate checks. You could literally stack everyone up to panicked in the blink of an eye. "Run for the hills, its the Bear-not-bear!"

Ooh! Combine with the Thayan Slaver's Break Will effect, which deals Wisdom damage each time you beat an enemy on an intimidate check by 10 or more. Now, not only are they terrified, they're also dealt a near-infinite amount of Wisdom damage!

[lunar2]

except that intimidate has a clause that states that it doesn't stack with itself. you can only get them to shaken, not frightened or panicked.

[Gorfnod]

Or since you have the Berserker's Strength class ability and not Rage then you can't even turn into a bear. I understand this is a very strict interruptation of the rules but it seems that Berserker's Strength is intended to not have any +Con associated with it.

[Keld Denar]

except that intimidate has a clause that states that it doesn't stack with itself. you can only get them to shaken, not frightened or panicked.

Citation? I don't see it in the SRD.

[Taelas]

I believe this is what he referred to:

Try Again: Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial check succeeds, the other character can be intimidated only so far, and a retry doesn’t help. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly resolved to resist the intimidator, and a retry is futile.

[Keld Denar]

And I always believed that referenced the social aspect of Intimidate, rather than the combat aspect. Also, it doesn't outright state it can't work, just that it often doesn't. But its happening so fast, the target doesn't even have a chance to respond.

It's a dumb rule loop, but it works.

[teslas]

I suggested taking it twice only for the reason that it would last a full minute even after you were healed above your threshold. That and as that type of character, you by necessity already have Power Attack, so what other feats do you actually really need if your theme was just bearing around in bear form as a bear with bear claws. I realize I didn't actually include this anywhere. Apparently it helps to type all of the words of a thought if you want other people to understand it.


Milk it! Take Intimidating Rage. Then when you get to the sweet spot that causes your divide by cucumber error, you rage, turn into a bear, stop raging, rerage, etc, you will get to make an arbitrarily large number of intimidate checks. You could literally stack everyone up to panicked in the blink of an eye. "Run for the hills, its the Bear-not-bear!"
Keld has won this thread. I think we're done here, as there's not likely to be any better post and nobody's been able to (competently) debunk the mechanics, no?

[dextercorvia]

dextercorvia, Con bonuses aren't "healing", but that isn't relevant. Tharagh's "threshold" to be raging is 35 hps (40 hps if the DM is generous and allows the bear warrior levels to "count" as barbarian levels).

Oh, but it is releveant.


You cannot voluntarily end your berserker strength, although you automatically drop out of it while unconscious, helpless, or (most likely) when you receive healing to bring your current hit points above the threshold.

There are only 3 ways to end berserker strength. Being unconscious, helpless, or being healed to above your threshold. You can raise your HP by any other means above the threshold, so long as it isn't healing, and it won't end berserker strength.

Could a Warforged abuse this by using craft to repair himself?

[TroubleBrewing]

Could a Warforged abuse this by using craft to repair himself?

If anyone actually makes this build, it needs to be filed under "Infinitely Scary Bear Robot".

[Andorax]

Or since you have the Berserker's Strength class ability and not Rage then you can't even turn into a bear. I understand this is a very strict interruptation of the rules but it seems that Berserker's Strength is intended to not have any +Con associated with it.

That's where this line comes into play:

"Any effect that would normally apply only during your rage applies whenever your berserker strength is active."



I find the idea of the frightningly-intimidating bear-not-bear "fear pulse cannon" intriguing in the extreme. Great way to identify paladins as well.



dextercovia, while it would be interesting to find a DM that would actually let that exception pass, it would appear you are technically correct. I bow to your mighty rule-fu.



Warforged Bear-Warrior Juggernaut that's literally IMMUNE TO HEALING?!?

Somebody paralyze the thing so we can repair it (totally not healing it) back up to full hps.

[Eldan]

So, Berserker allows you to become a bear during it.

Does it also allow you to qualify for things which need rage?

[dextercorvia]

If anyone actually makes this build, it needs to be filed under "Infinitely Scary Bear Robot".

Unfortunately, with the infinite loop broken, Intimidating Rage would only trigger once. So, you would be a Finitely Scary Bear Robot.

Also, Berserker Strength doesn't have a no spellcasting clause, so you could gestalt BS Bearbarian//Wizard on an Aeshkrau Illumian for major bonus spells.

[Narsis]

Unfortunately, with the infinite loop broken, Intimidating Rage would only trigger once. So, you would be a Finitely Scary Bear Robot.

Also, Berserker Strength doesn't have a no spellcasting clause, so you could gestalt BS Bearbarian//Wizard on an Aeshkrau Illumian for major bonus spells.

note to self: next gestalt character will abuse this.

[Eldan]

Suggestion: throw in a few Psywar levels so you can use Body Adjustment to heal yourself after infinitely scaring people.

[TroubleBrewing]

Also, Berserker Strength doesn't have a no spellcasting clause, so you could gestalt BS Bearbarian//Wizard on an Aeshkrau Illumian for major bonus spells.

Pity Natural Spell has a Wild Shape prerequisite. Otherwise, this would be so hilarious. Normal robot, no spells. Hurt him a little bit, and he turns into a bear so terrifying, it shoots lightning.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Intimidating Rage + Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command. Make them all cower before your unbearable form!

Also, you may be under a misapprehension as to what bonuses to Con give you.

They don't give you hit points, they increase your maximum hit points. You don't get healed, your hit point current total doesn't increase. Your maximum is simply increased temporarily. The converse is, of course, not true. Losing Con also makes you lose current and maximum HP. Yes, you can die from having your con go up and down between the same two numbers.

[Taelas]

Yeah, no, that's not how it actually works.

Go actually read the ability before you start making incorrect claims, please. Rage abilities (including Bear Warrior's Bear Form) specifically increase current hit points (as do spells like bear's endurance).

Even disregarding the specific language in the various abilities and spells, this is what the entry for Constitution says:


If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

So, no, that is most definitely not how it works.

[mikau013]

except that intimidate has a clause that states that it doesn't stack with itself. you can only get them to shaken, not frightened or panicked.
Citation? I don't see it in the SRD.

Technically multiple exposures to the same effect don’t trigger the escalation of fear. Being exposed to different effects does stack though.
And I believe the fact that you can't get further than shaken with intimidate is pathfinder and/or 4e text.

[deuxhero]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081109002916/megamitensei/images/thumb/5/51/Teddie.jpg/250px-Teddie.jpg

This build is beary funny.

[dextercorvia]

Pity Natural Spell has a Wild Shape prerequisite. Otherwise, this would be so hilarious. Normal robot, no spells. Hurt him a little bit, and he turns into a bear so terrifying, it shoots lightning.

Good thing Bear Form references polymorph, which only requires you to be able to speak intelligibly. A Pearl of Speech (MIC) is only 600 gp.

[absolmorph]

Technically multiple exposures to the same effect don’t trigger the escalation of fear. Being exposed to different effects does stack though.
And I believe the fact that you can't get further than shaken with intimidate is pathfinder and/or 4e text.
Why stack fear effects?




Milk it! Take Intimidating Rage. Then when you get to the sweet spot that causes your divide by cucumber error, you rage, turn into a bear, stop raging, rerage, etc, you will get to make an arbitrarily large number of intimidate checks. You could literally stack everyone up to panicked in the blink of an eye. "Run for the hills, its the Bear-not-bear!"
Ooh! Combine with the Thayan Slaver's Break Will effect, which deals Wisdom damage each time you beat an enemy on an intimidate check by 10 or more. Now, not only are they terrified, they're also dealt a near-infinite amount of Wisdom damage!

You can DESTROY THEIR MIND.
Because you're apparently a special bear that turns everyone within 10 (or more with expanded reach) feet of you's minds into mush.

[absolmorph]

Technically multiple exposures to the same effect don’t trigger the escalation of fear. Being exposed to different effects does stack though.
And I believe the fact that you can't get further than shaken with intimidate is pathfinder and/or 4e text.
Why stack fear effects?




Milk it! Take Intimidating Rage. Then when you get to the sweet spot that causes your divide by cucumber error, you rage, turn into a bear, stop raging, rerage, etc, you will get to make an arbitrarily large number of intimidate checks. You could literally stack everyone up to panicked in the blink of an eye. "Run for the hills, its the Bear-not-bear!"
Ooh! Combine with the Thayan Slaver's Break Will effect, which deals Wisdom damage each time you beat an enemy on an intimidate check by 10 or more. Now, not only are they terrified, they're also dealt a near-infinite amount of Wisdom damage!

You can DESTROY THEIR MIND.
Because you're apparently a special bear that turns everyone within 10 (or more with expanded reach) feet of you's minds into mush.

[dgnslyr]

Wait, if Berserker Rage is activated by having level * 5 HP or less, then if you've got a poor constitution score, and maybe an HP-lowering flaw, you could conceivably be permanently enraged. How does this interact with a Frenzied Berserker's immunity to death by HP damage while frenzied? FB death-defiance only applies during a FB's frenzy, right?

[TroubleBrewing]

Good thing Bear Form references polymorph, which only requires you to be able to speak intelligibly. A Pearl of Speech (MIC) is only 600 gp.

I could not stop my mind from being blown.

Seriously, that's an internet right there.

[Garwain]

Wait, if Berserker Rage is activated by having level * 5 HP or less, then if you've got a poor constitution score, and maybe an HP-lowering flaw, you could conceivably be permanently enraged. How does this interact with a Frenzied Berserker's immunity to death by HP damage while frenzied? FB death-defiance only applies during a FB's frenzy, right?
Indeed, if we take the example from the OP, we see that Tharagh remains in Bear Form, regardless of healing:

Tharagh, Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior 1, has a 16 Str, but with 8 Con and Frail flaw. At lvl 8 he has 28 hp, which is below 35. He enters Berserker Rage, and thus Bear Form, gaining +8STR, +2DEX, +4CON.

Tharagh has now 24Str and 12 Con, which means 44hp in Bear Form permanently.

If Tharagh is healed, his rage ends, his HP drops below treshold, and he transforms back into Bear Form.

edit: this also means that if Tharagh is down to 5hp or less after healing, he drops stone dead because he loses 16 from ending the rage, dropping him to -10 before he can rage again to gain 16 hp.

[dextercorvia]

If Tharagh is healed, his rage ends, his HP drops below treshold, and he transforms back into Bear Form.

edit: this also means that if Tharagh is down to 5hp or less after healing, he drops stone dead because he loses 16 from ending the rage, dropping him to -10 before he can rage again to gain 16 hp.

Only healing that brings him over the threshold will temporarily end BS -- so you don't have to worry about killing him by healing him.

Now you just need a way to stay alive despite being a melee character with ~40hp.

[georgie_leech]

I'm away from book right now, so I can't check, but how would this interact with Frenzied Berserker? I seem to remember that during a rage (which this counts as) you can remain standing (and living!) after going beneath -10. Normally this shuts off when the rage ends, but, this doesn't actually end until you've been healed...

EDIT: ...Well aparently I've been looking at a cached version of this page 'cause I just got ninja'd by several hours.

[Calanon]

I'm disappointed in you all...

For a Barbarian to take the Berserkers Strength Class feature, he has to give up the ability to rage (This is a debate on RAW vs RAI) meaning he can't even qualify to become a Bear Warrior :smallconfused: so how would this paradox even exist?

Explain this bull **** to me! :smallfurious:

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm disappointed in you all...

For a Barbarian to take the Berserkers Strength Class feature, he has to give up the ability to rage (This is a debate on RAW vs RAI) meaning he can't even qualify to become a Bear Warrior :smallconfused: so how would this paradox even exist?

Explain this bull **** to me! :smallfurious:

Get Rage from another source? Two levels of Half-Orc Paragon, for instance?

[Calanon]

Get Rage from another source? Two levels of Half-Orc Paragon, for instance?

You win this round... and the +4 racial bonus to Intimidate also helps :smalltongue: Alright so Half Orc Paragon 3 Barbarian 3 (Threshold 15) Frenzied Berserker 1 Bear Warrior 4 Frenzied Berserker 9

Flaw: Weak Willed: Power Attack
1st: Cleave
3rd: Intimidating Rage
6th: Destructive Rage
9th: Improved Bull Rush
12th: Shock Trooper
15th: Greater Cleave
18th: At this point you can tell I stopped trying after 6th level for feats...

Anywho someone improve this skeleton build I made... find a creature that can get a bonus feat without a flaw :smallannoyed: or make this actually playable... its 8 am and I've been awake all night... time for sleep...

[Garwain]

Get Rage from another source? Two levels of Half-Orc Paragon, for instance?
Not even needed... OP states RAW:
"Any effect that would normally apply only during your rage applies whenever your berserker strength is active."

Frenzied Berserker is no help:
Deathless Frenzy (Ex): Even if reduced to –10 hit points or less, she continues to fight normally until her frenzy ends.

So not rage, but frenzy.

[Eldan]

That's not the problem, however. The problem is that you need rage for bear warrior. Berserker strength activates rage effects, but does not seem to qualify for rage itself.

Hence Half-orc paragon, for actually having normal rage to qualify with.

[Garwain]

That's not the problem, however. The problem is that you need rage for bear warrior.There are other sources for rage:

Base classes:
Rage Cleric 1 (DR333 p86)
Druidic Avenger 2(UA p51)
Raging Monk 2 (DR310 p45)
Lunar Rogue (4th level substitution)(DR340 p55)

PrC:
Eye of Gruumsh 1 (CWar p31)
Battle Howler of Gruumsh 2 (DR311 p69)

I can see fun times to be had with Druidic Avenger. But anyway, why bother if you can switch to bear form back and forth all day with the PrC: Sentinel of Bharrai (BoED p69)

[Otomodachi]

Why stack fear effects?



You can DESTROY THEIR MIND.
Because you're apparently a special bear that turns everyone within 10 (or more with expanded reach) feet of you's minds into mush.

Picture the scene- Tharagh is beset by a powerful group of bandits. They tell him, "Your GP or your HP!" and he just grins at them, dropping his imposing greataxe to the ground and gesturing for them to come forward.

"Hit me. I dare you," Tharagh challenges.

The leader of the bandits comes forwards and aims a weak short sword thrust at Tharagh, who steps right into it, letting it plow right through (let's say) his right shoulder, blood spraying everywhere.

And then collapses to the ground, his form becoming a terrible, blood-spraying mass of teeth, fur, claws, skin, fur, hands, claws, hands... organs rearrange themselves, his face is constantly forming and deforming a muzzle. The sounds alone would soil pants.

"Did... did he just do that... to himself?" one bandit wonders out loud, an instant before they all go running to a temple of Pelor to renounce their lives of evil.

At least that's what I saw in my head.

[dextercorvia]

"Did... did he just do that... to himself?" one bandit wonders out loud, an instant before they all go running to a temple of Pelor to renounce their lives of obvious evil, instead devoting themselves to the only thing more darkly terrifying than the Bear/Not Bear abomination that drove them to this point.

At least that's what I saw in my head.

FTFY

And then they discover that the Bear/Not Bear is sent by Pelor himself to proselytize the masses by constant horror.

[Kuulvheysoon]

FTFY

And then they discover that the Bear/Not Bear is sent by Pelor himself to proselytize the masses by constant horror.

I KNEW that there was going to be a Pelor reference in there somewhere. Nicely done.