Dragonfire Adept?

[Eonir]

My google-fu has failed me. What tier are Dragonfire Adepts in and why?

[gomipile]

I think most people who have considered this place them in tier 3.

[Big Fau]

Mid Tier 3, high Tier 4.

As for why: The breath weapons they have can be used with impunity thanks to a single invocation and to the BW effects, they have several other invocations that help out with various encounter issues, they are highly mobile thanks to their primary method of attack being a Standard action (and a feat makes it a Swift action), and they have UMD as a class skill.

Good from 1st to 20th, although that's due to a severe lack of support PrCs. Still, DFA 20 can be a solid party member if built right.

[gomipile]

Also, there are ways to qualify for metabreath feats. With a reasonable DM, you might even be able to qualify for them out the gate without jumping through hoops.

[Eonir]

Awesome. I have a friend who wanted to play one after stumbling upon it. She asked me how good it was and I came up completely blank.

[Keld Denar]

I can tell you from experience that they are rather boring to play. Move breath, breath move, move breath, roll Entangling Exhalation with normal breath damage. Past about 6 or so things get a little more interesting as some of the Lesser Invocations are interesting, but otherwise about the same excitement as a Swift Hunter type build.

[Raendyn]

I have played this guy through 13 lvls. And I can tell a few things...

The handbook is full of mistakes and interpretations the way is suits the Author. If you check it for advice make sure you double check everything. Other than that is has some nice advices.

This whole "I am god at 1st lvls" Is only partly true. smart enemies with a ranged attack, 1/3CR skeletons with crossbows/javelins bypass the ultimate kiting thing.

Yes he is solid, yes he has some solutions, but he will get boring. He will do average steady dmg to almost anything, but will feel underpowered if tier1-2 are there, not even optimazed. Also you will be the smack-boy, you take the dmg others nuke from afar, until you get the range increase at least.

A well built DFA can contribute but as an extra and thats it.

Also metabreaths are not an option. Unless the dm allows that dragon magazine trick the handbook suggests(need DM's approval), there's no other legal way. I have researched much and combined information from Rules Compendium/Draconomicon/dragon Magic/MM prohibits Metabreath omni-applicability.

DFA is super-fun when played in low powered campaigns that combat is just a break from the story.

[FMArthur]

These all sound like distinctly Tier 4 problems to me. What makes people say they are Tier 3?

[TroubleBrewing]

They get the same sort of deal as Warlocks, with basically the same problems.

Warlocks are T3, DFA gets to be T3 too.

I personally place Warlock in T4, and that's where I see DFA.

[The Underlord]

Actually warlocks are listed as tier 4(I think they should be tier 3 but whatever)

[FMArthur]

PlzBreakMyCampaign's more complete analysis of classes' tiers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0) is thorough than JaronK's initial outline. It's better reference material overall just for including all the classes, and the only entry I disagree with is Sha'ir [edit: and Wu Jen] being Tier 2 instead of Tier 1.

He's got both DFA and Warlock on Tier 4. I think I agree with those as well.

[DrDeth]

I played the class, found it more fun and slightly more powerful than Warlock- and slightly more flexible. So, whatever you think Warlock is, + ½. Thus, it could marginally fit into Tier 3 if you think Warlock is high Tier 4.

[Snowbluff]

PlzBreakMyCampaign's more complete analysis of classes' tiers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0) is thorough than JaronK's initial outline. It's better reference material overall just for including all the classes, and the only entry I disagree with is Sha'ir (I think it's Tier 1).

He's got both DFA and Warlock on Tier 4. I think I agree with those as well.

Lol, funny thing here is he didn't read the entry for FoB, how accurate can the rest of this be?

[FMArthur]

Lol, funny thing here is he didn't read the entry for FoB, how accurate can the rest of this be?

I don't even know what you're talking about. Did he make a mistake somewhere else about Flurry of Blows? What's its relevance to the subject here?

[Hiro Protagonest]

PlzBreakMyCampaign's more complete analysis of classes' tiers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0) is thorough than JaronK's initial outline. It's better reference material overall just for including all the classes, and the only entry I disagree with is Sha'ir [edit: and Wu Jen] being Tier 2 instead of Tier 1.

He's got both DFA and Warlock on Tier 4. I think I agree with those as well.

He also has totemist at tier 4. They can do melee, range, and skills well, and aren't restricted to only a few options that you can't change for free the next day. So... I don't get it.

[Snowbluff]

I don't even know what you're talking about. Did he make a mistake somewhere else about Flurry of Blows? What's its relevance to the subject here?

Trying to use the source you sited. It's incomplete. Not very useful here. I'll see if I can find it on BG's child site to see if it was ever finished...

As for Flurry of Blows. He said that FoB gains +1atk each level. That is not what FoB does. FoB gives extra hits at a (diminishing) penalty.

[Curious]

Also metabreaths are not an option. Unless the dm allows that dragon magazine trick the handbook suggests(need DM's approval), there's no other legal way. I have researched much and combined information from Rules Compendium/Draconomicon/dragon Magic/MM prohibits Metabreath omni-applicability.

Actually, this is false. A Dragonborn DFA can grab metabreath feats as long as they choose the heart aspect.

[Draz74]

I played the class, found it more fun and slightly more powerful than Warlock- and slightly more flexible. So, whatever you think Warlock is, + ½. Thus, it could marginally fit into Tier 3 if you think Warlock is high Tier 4.


Yeah, DFA's have some important advantages over Warlocks, or at least out-of-the-box Warlocks:
DFAs can target multiple creatures with their breath right from level 1, while Warlocks have to build up to eldritch shapes that let them do the same. (And even then, Eldritch Cone is quite vulnerable to Evasion, while DFAs can switch over to using Fortitude-based breaths instead of Reflex.)
More skill points, and a better skill list. DFAs have an easy time contributing to the campaign even when their magic is useless.
CON as their main stat. Awesome.
No need to make attack rolls. This can be a disadvantage (no sneak attack), but it's more often helpful. Concealment? Invisibility? No problem.

[Lans]

He also has totemist at tier 4. They can do melee, range, and skills well, and aren't restricted to only a few options that you can't change for free the next day. So... I don't get it.

I honestly think he just got Totemist and Incarnate mixed up

[Raendyn]

Actually, this is false. A Dragonborn DFA can grab metabreath feats as long as they choose the heart aspect.

No this is 100% accurate. WotC FAQ stated:
Can dragonfire adepts ( DM 24) use the Breath
Channeling feats ( RDr 101) or the Metabreath feats (Dr
66)?
A dragonfire adept can’t use a Metabreath feat with his
breath weapon because it does not have a recharge time.
Having a recharge time is one of the prerequisites for
Metabreath feats. They can use the Breath Channeling feats as
long as they meet all other prerequisites for the feat.

You can get metabreath feats but you can't apply them to your DFA breaths. That was a clear abuse of wording that from the begining did not allow but also did not prohibit the trick. And considering that if you apply one metabreath to you Dragonborn breath and use it, you can't use any other breath weapon until the one you jsut used is rdy, (so says MM and Rules compandium), its a wasted feat at least.

[NineThePuma]

FAQ is not a valid source. It has to either be Book or Errata. Since it was never errataed, clearly it's still RAW.

Note that I've used a DFA with Metabreaths (my DM said my base recharge time for my breath was 0 rounds and thus a valid target for this) and it's not horribly game breaking. Unless Maximized Empowered Five Fold Breath of Tiamat happens, but by the time you're throwing that out you're fighting along mages with Ninth Leel Spells, so that actually got me sympathy from my party, cause all I do is a bunch of damage.

[gomipile]

Trying to use the source you sited. It's incomplete. Not very useful here. I'll see if I can find it on BG's child site to see if it was ever finished...

As for Flurry of Blows. He said that FoB gains +1atk each level. That is not what FoB does. FoB gives extra hits at a (diminishing) penalty.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn/PlzBreakMyCampaign left a post incomplete? That's jus

[Axier]

I enjoy DFA because it gets mad Knowledge chekcs, and an invocation for knowledge checks (+6 to all Knowledge and can use them untrained!), and a free Identify makes them have great utility.

Flight invocations for free 24hour flight. Add in the Invisibility invocations and you have a great scout.

Is the combat boring? Hell yea! Are you going to be usefull? You bet!

[Andorax]

Played a 10th level kobold DFA once in a campaign with another player playing a silver dragon.

Despite having a more often used, more damaging breath weapon and being all-around more effective in combat, I treated him with awe and reverence and wouldn't ever, for even a moment, let anyone consider me 'better' than him in any way.

The kobold's reasoning? Become his most ardent, indespensible follower early, and when he's an adult dragon and slaughtering anything even vaguely threatening, my loyalty will be rewarded.

He also had the coward flaw, and skill tricks that let him basically jump at a wall and stick to it halfway up. Dang tough to pin down, that one.

[MeeposFire]

The nice thing about DFAs is that it is hard to make them useless due to their versatility. Basically you would need a situation where control is not helpful. I will say that damage is not their thing and warlocks do that better (along with item creation) other than that the DFA is generally as good or better.

[Draz74]

The nice thing about DFAs is that it is hard to make them useless due to their versatility. Basically you would need a situation where control is not helpful. I will say that damage is not their thing and warlocks do that better (along with item creation) other than that the DFA is generally as good or better.

Well, occasionally there are also problems with immunities and energy resistance, too. At level 1, your offense is pretty sad against anything with fire resistance. Your good Level 5 breath options (Weakening and Slow) don't work on Undead or Constructs.

I guess after the first couple levels, you can at least Entangle anything that's not immune to your (several) energy damage types.

[eggs]

As for Flurry of Blows. He said that FoB gains +1atk each level. That is not what FoB does. FoB gives extra hits at a (diminishing) penalty.
Notice how the Flurry of Blows penalty + BA increases by 1 every level until the penalty disappears? That's what he's talking about.

[Person_Man]

I personally peg the Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) at Tier 3. They have access to:

A reliable breath weapon with damage that scales well, that's capable of imposing useful secondary effects (sicken, sleep, slow, Str penalty, paralyze).
Control: Charm Person, Fear effects, Baleful Geas, Chilling Fog, and the above breath effects.
Defense: Energy Resistance/Immunity, AC bonus, Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic with extra effects, immunity to paralysis and sleep.
Utility: Detect Magic, See Invisibility, Disguise Self, Veil, UMD, social Skills, various Skill buffs.
Mobility: Flight.


So nothing amazing, especially at lower levels when you're limited to just a couple of Invocations and breath effects (when it's arguably Tier 4, since they have much more limited options). But it's good for a newer player who wants to blast stuff without the hassle of book keeping or researching a bunch of spells, and superior to the Warlock and Warmage.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

PersonMan has the best argument. Keep in mind the tier system is relative, not checkmark based. Warlock has better progressions and versatility ... and its t4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226094). I'm not doing anything shocking, I'm just listing the usual community consensus everything out so people can see, well everything. I just mind when after doing a bunch of selfless work for the community, there is negativity (FMA, feel free to PM me your two t2->t1 arguments considering the limited lists/spell levels). Very motivating


He also has totemist at tier 4. They can do melee, range, and skills well, and aren't restricted to only a few options that you can't change for free the next day. So... I don't get it.
I honestly think he just got Totemist and Incarnate mixed upDo you really believe that? More proof that no one reads the fine print. There is a reason why Totemist is at the top of the list. Rookie mistake.


Trying to use the source you sited. It's incomplete. Not very useful here. I'll see if I can find it on BG's child site to see if it was ever finished...

As for Flurry of Blows. He said that FoB gains +1atk each level. That is not what FoB does. FoB gives extra hits at a (diminishing) penalty.Clearly you do not know what the word progression means. The progression does actually increment at each level but two. And what increments? The hit bonus.

Does the penalty really diminish as you say? Or is it diminished from the normal attack option? Please try to understand the language you are using before being a grammar nazi. Otherwise you are just trolling.

Yes I got sidetracked when BG imploded for a while there. Then my dump forum imploded as well. Now that both are up and running, I will be finishing.

But for the record, feel free to complete the charts. I'll even quote you. Post it in this thread. I'm sure it won't take a pro like you long. Show me how 'useful' you can be.


PlzBreakMyCmpAn/PlzBreakMyCampaign left a post incomplete? That's jusWhy would I over there? Its the red light district there, but here is the gula

[kardar233]

I can't find your expanded tier list; did you repost it at minmaxboards yet?

Did you really put the Incarnate at Tier 3 and the Totemist at 4? Why, if I may ask?

[TroubleBrewing]

Did you really put the Incarnate at Tier 3 and the Totemist at 4? Why, if I may ask?

It makes sense if you think about it.

Totemists do combat crazy well, and they have a number of effective ways of doing it. They can be tank-ish, range-y, or an absolute blender of natural attacks from a disturbingly early level (Barb1/Totemist 2 with proper feat selection and ACF choices nets them 5 longsword-or-better attacks by level 3), but they don't do other things especially well.

Incarnate is a slightly-less awesome Incarnum version of the Factotum. Incarnate, Binder, and Factotum all fit the "magic-ish jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" idea, and they're all Tier 3, with the exception of Binder's online stuff.

[Coidzor]

Totemist basically gets some skill bonuses that it can raise or lower depending upon essential allocation and shaped soulmelds for secondary skill roles, and otherwise is a combat-blender, no?

[TroubleBrewing]

Totemist basically gets some skill bonuses that it can raise or lower depending upon essential allocation and shaped soulmelds for secondary skill roles, and otherwise is a combat-blender, no?

Does one thing very well, but does other things in a bit of a sub-par manner.

Incarnate is the opposite: it does many things satisfactorily, but none of them exceptionally.

[Person_Man]

My personal opinion is that the Totemist and Incarnate are both Tier 3, but they require a very high level of rules mastery to get there. And because of that, most people tend to play them as if they were Tier 4 classes.

People generally take levels of Totemist to get a ton of natural attacks and buffs to those attacks, and they put all/most of their resources into that one role (Tier 4). But they also have tons of options available to time each time they rest; at will Flesh to Stone, area of effect Stun, breath weapons, Move Action Dimension Door, Fear effects, Skill buffs, and a few overlooked gems like Telepathy and buffed Wild Empathy. He can be a melee monster at level 1, and most of his other best options open up with his Totem chakra bind at level 2.

Similarly, most people take levels of Incarnate for the Skill buffs. But they also have some of the most powerful defense options in the game; Spell Resistance, damage reduction, Evasion, Energy Resistance, super Deflect Arrows, retributive damage, miss chance, massive bonus hit points, etc. And they get a few useful buffs (mostly bonuses to-hit and/or damage), control (Animate Dead, Stun, Daze), utility (See Invisibility, True Seeing, Suggestion), and mobility (flight, Gate, Swim) options as well. Most of his best Skill and defensive options are available at level 1, with the rest of his desirable abilities opening up in dribs and drabs as he gains access to higher level chakra binds.

Comparing them to the Dragonfire Adept, I would say that either class has more options, but that figuring out how to use those options is much more confusing.

[Big Fau]

Totemist basically gets some skill bonuses that it can raise or lower depending upon essential allocation and shaped soulmelds for secondary skill roles, and otherwise is a combat-blender, no?

It has an excellent ability to scout, and is actually better at it than the Incarnate, thanks in no small part to the Phase Cloak and other Soulmelds.

The thing that seperates the Totemist from other Tier 4's is that the class is capable of switching what it focuses on. Need a blender? You've got that covered. Need a scout to get some intel on the interior of a fortress? The Totemist can get in and be completely unnoticed, and even if he is he can flee at speeds that most mounts can't even dream of matching (Manticore Belt). Need a debuffer? You've got a couple of Breath Weapons, the Basilisk Mask, and a couple of other tricks.

You also have significantly better defenses than most Tier 4's.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Personman has a good argument. Keep in mind optimization and those sufficiently familiar with a class can play classes at a higher tier. See JaronK's thread on that.


The Totemist can get in and be completely unnoticed, and even if he is he can flee at speeds that most mounts can't even dream of matching (Manticore Belt)So they avoid mindsight?

I assume you mean the level 14 waist chakra bind for a whopping 30' clumsy fly speed, or more if you

[Grendus]

So they avoid mindsight?

Mindsight is a very optimized form of perception. Looking at a T3 class that might be scouting, how does a Wildshape Ranger avoid mindsight? How about a Psychic Rogue? If the DM is using enemies with mindsight, he's basically blocking all scouting until you have access to Mind Blank. Against an average enemy who uses spot checks and maybe short ranged blindsense though, a Totemist is an incredible scout who can pump his hide and move silently into the stratosphere.


I assume you mean the level 14 waist chakra bind for a whopping 30' clumsy fly speed, or more if you

If he's fleeing he'll redistribute his essentia, so it's more like 60' fly speed. He'll probably be double moving so that's 120' per round. Not fast enough to outrun every monster in the books, but pretty fast, fast enough that most reasonable monsters wouldn't follow you. Not bad for one bind, considering that that's only one possible ability he could have.


I think Big Fau has a good argument. Totemists are very good at being a melee blender of attacks, and passably good at many other things. Pretty much the definition of T3 to me.

[Big Fau]

A 20th level Totemist has a fly speed that exceeds some Dragons, and they can indeed dodge Mindsight (temporarily) thanks to the Phase Cloak or Blink Shirt.

[DrDeth]

This thread is about the Dragonfire adept, not the Totemist.

[NineThePuma]

Technically, it's about the tier list, with the DFA being the focus of it. The shift to the MoI classes is a bit off, but we've exhausted the discussion of the DFA.