What would melee do if it didn't have Power Attack or Two Weapon Fighting?

[Coidzor]

You know, if you take away those basic ideas that let one maximize one's number of attacks or maximize one's damage per hit, what else would there be to focus on?

It seems like most crit-fishing would be rather disadvantaged by the lack of TWF if not outright killed.

Offhand, I can think of managing at least some mounted combat and at middling to high levels doing the fear thing outside of dipping into incarnum, binding, or maneuvers. Anything else you all can think of?

Random aside that got me on this: Was thinking about feat taxes after reading a thread where natural spell got called out as one and started thinking about other feat taxes. So I began to imagine a world where a few things like power attack, TWF, and combat expertise were just part of the base combat system rather than treated like add-ons.

So, yeah, what about a similar situation where power attack and two weapon fighting were across the system at about the same level as combat maneuvers and naturally just scaled, essentially just eliminating the feat taxes there?

Would it be the same, just feat trees would shuffle down and one might have an extra feat at low levels that couldn't be spent on one's tree due to level requirements? It seems like someone who wanted to TWF at least would be fairly fundamentally altered by freeing up the feats that would need to be invested, though I'm not sure how it'd go from there. I suppose crit fishing or getting a good EWP for TWFing with would be seen more?

edit: To clarify, the question I'm asking specifically here is what things would look like with no TWF or power attack as options or as feats. Sorry about being unclear on that.

I'll admit though, I am also curious about what other feats would fall into that same sort of category as the two I'm thinking about, and how their removal would effect things.

[INoKnowNames]

*edit* Nevermind, it seems you are saying to abandon actually Power Attack or Two Weapon Fighting....

Honestly, baring the other systems that melee can use, I can't think of any reason to ever consider melee again....

[Seerow]

You'd probably just build a non-power attack charger. It wouldn't be quite effective, but most of a charger's real power comes from the damage multipliers you can stack up if you dig around enough. Yeah (2d6+100)*5 is much better than (2d6+30)*5, but the latter is still plenty of damage to put a target down.





Assuming you mean no damage boosting feats at all, as opposed to just no power attack, you'd probably spend feats on things for extra mobility and more options. Dodge, Run, etc would still be terrible, but you'd probably look more at some of the more obscure tactical feats, pick up maneuvers/incarnum as you indicated, etc.

[Rubik]

A natural weapon specialist? It's doable, especially with a charger build and pounce.

I generally make my psywars like this, and hardly ever take actual combat feats, and they tend to be awesome.

[Randomguy]

There's mounted combat, sword and board, intimidate, tripping, grappling and I think that's about it.

[Voyager_I]

Zhentarim Fighter/Marshal/Barbarian Intimidation Build with Draconic Auras and Never Outnumbered?

[Novawurmson]

Optimizing defense. The very nature of the game might shift towards outlasting opponents instead of overpowering them.

Crowd control options and debuffs would be more important.

If this was the only change made to the system, most melee would probably just shift to casters; why bother when you can just summoner monsters who are better in melee than you?

Edit: Didn't read the spoiler. I think just giving a few basic feats to everyone who had the prerequisites (such as Two Weapon Fighting and Combat Expertise) would help melee get to nice things easier.

Person Man's Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) would be a decent place to start.

[Lateral]

Short answer? You play a Tome of Battle character, Totemist, Psychic Warrior, or the like. Really, those kind of create their own fighting style, so the loss of Power Attack and TWF don't hurt that much.

[Urpriest]

The melee debuff handbook stuff might become relevant. I could see Boomerang Daze/Three Mountains/etc. being much more important.

[Gotterdammerung]

Whirlwind attack psychic warrior with expansion and spike chain cleric dip for travel devotion possibly some reach extenders if you can fit it in. Get damage up from other sources like collision, and psychic weapon enhancements, knowledge devotion, and straight strength.

Add in bard cohort Stormcaster buffer with Born of three thunders and thunderbolt as well as dragonfire inspiration with inspire courage optimization tricks. Have them cast "sonic weapon" on the spiked chain augmented by thunderbolt and Born of three thunders. Add a bunch more sonic damage from dragon fire inspiration with sonic breath weapon dragon ancestry. (5 lvls of stormcaster, need arcane disciple storm domain and at least a 13 wisdom for prerequs from bard route)


Take a move as a swift to position yourself in the best location on the battlefield, then take the full round to make an attack against everything in 30-40 feet (depending on your final reach). Everything you hit has to make 2 forts or be stunned. Everything that is stunned has to make a reflex save or be knocked prone. Do decent damage as well as good sonic damage + lock down.

It's kinda like a dirty fireball but better energy type and extra solid lockdown and bigger area, and no real per day limit, and bypasses evasion. Ok, so it's not really anything like a fireball, meh.

Find a way to throw in combat reflexes and thicket of blades stance might also be worth it.

Anyway, that is my fun suggestion for melee if power attack and 2 weapon fighting are off the table.

[Midnight_v]

Short answer? You play a Tome of Battle character, Totemist, Psychic Warrior, or the like. Really, those kind of create their own fighting style, so the loss of Power Attack and TWF don't hurt that much.

I was thinking this. So +1.

I also wondered if the op meant just give everyone power attack as combat manuevers, like trip. they did that in the tomes. Power attack is just a thing people can do... thats not a bad option.
Making power attack something people can just "Do", and reducing the penalties for two-weapon fighting to "as the feat" across the board actually makes sense. Cause... well it is just a tax.

[Amphetryon]

Tripping, some limited crit-fishing (like with a Scythe), and possibly poison use. Otherwise, yes, melee would go play a Psywar, Incarnum, or ToB.

[Coidzor]

Whirlwind attack psychic warrior with expansion and spike chain cleric dip for travel devotion possibly some reach extenders if you can fit it in. Get damage up from other sources like collision, and psychic weapon enhancements, knowledge devotion, and straight strength.

Add in bard cohort Stormcaster buffer with Born of three thunders and thunderbolt as well as dragonfire inspiration with inspire courage optimization tricks. Have them cast "sonic weapon" on the spiked chain augmented by thunderbolt and Born of three thunders. Add a bunch more sonic damage from dragon fire inspiration with sonic breath weapon dragon ancestry. (5 lvls of stormcaster, need arcane disciple storm domain and at least a 13 wisdom for prerequs from bard route)


Take a move as a swift to position yourself in the best location on the battlefield, then take the full round to make an attack against everything in 30-40 feet (depending on your final reach). Everything you hit has to make 2 forts or be stunned. Everything that is stunned has to make a reflex save or be knocked prone. Do decent damage as well as good sonic damage + lock down.

It's kinda like a dirty fireball but better energy type and extra solid lockdown and bigger area, and no real per day limit, and bypasses evasion. Ok, so it's not really anything like a fireball, meh.

Find a way to throw in combat reflexes and thicket of blades stance might also be worth it.

Anyway, that is my fun suggestion for melee if power attack and 2 weapon fighting are off the table.

Heh, now that is a nifty little combo. :smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

I was thinking a Combat Reflexes/Stand Still lockdown build. You could afford the reach extender feats.

[Hirax]

Permanently taking iaijutsu focus as a class skill and adding surprising riposte would make precision damage based warriors effective in campaigns such as RHOD.

Human paragon1/sneak attack zhentarim exoticist thug3/paragon+1/invisible blade 5

Use gnomish quickrazors and drop unintended and sadly unerrated pre reqs for invisible blade for this sample, of course.

[gorfnab]

Combat Expertise (fighting defensively) abuse + absurd number of AoO.

Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Deceptive Strike (PHBII) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense, B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available pick up EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (pre-errata version if possible) or Versatile Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick (may need to rearrange later feats). If traits are available pick up Cautious.


Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Deceptive Strike (PHBII) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - EWP Broadblade Shortword (pre-errata version) B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Deadly Defense
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Duelist
12. Duelist - Combat Reflexes
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Karmic Strike, Improved Combat Expertise, or Snap Kick
19. Duelist - B: Deflect Arrows
20. Duelist

If you can't get or don't want EWP: Broadblade Shortsword, move Combat Reflexes to 3rd level and add Snap Kick (best option) or Improved Combat Expertise (decent option) to 12th level.

If flaws are available pick up Versatile Unarmed Strike. If traits are available pick up Cautious.

[MukkTB]

It currently feels that sword and board and mounted fighters don't get nearly as much representation as they should for a fantasy simulation. When I create a character and come to choosing a fighting style I don't even consider them. Mounted combat is to situational to invest finite resources in when you're often wandering a dungeon. Using a hand to hold a shield doesn't have the same payoff as using the hand for something else. PF tried the solution 'Use the shield to bash people with TWF.' Thats not what I want. If I choose to carry a shield its because I value its DEFENSIVE benefit of the shield.

[kardar233]

I think in the absence of Power Attack doom-chargers, Waterga Ironstorm (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871346/Tome_of_Battle:_Build_Compendium&post_num=584#338393254) is going to be the epitome of sheer damage.

[Rejusu]

I was the one calling Natural Spell out as a feat tax so I'd like to add that I don't consider TWF or Power Attack feat taxes. Natural Spell is a feat tax because you don't really have any choice in whether or not to take it. Now arguably you could say the same about TWF or PA, you generally have to take one of them as a melee fighter. However you do get to choose between them, and you never normally need to take both. Furthermore it's only something you have to take if you're playing a melee class that lacks class features (like a fighter) that can make up for it.

TWF and PA may be some of the more essential feats but I don't consider them a tax because they're not a false choice like natural spell is. Sure it's a limited choice, you either take one route or another (generally anyway) but I'd still hesitate to call it a tax. Especially since you can actually get away with taking neither if you build your fighter as an archer.

Basically the only reason I consider Natural Spell a feat tax is it's something that Druids just have to take at level 6 without question. I don't consider PA and TWF as being nearly as mandatory.


It currently feels that sword and board and mounted fighters don't get nearly as much representation as they should for a fantasy simulation. When I create a character and come to choosing a fighting style I don't even consider them. Mounted combat is to situational to invest finite resources in when you're often wandering a dungeon. Using a hand to hold a shield doesn't have the same payoff as using the hand for something else. PF tried the solution 'Use the shield to bash people with TWF.' Thats not what I want. If I choose to carry a shield its because I value its DEFENSIVE benefit of the shield.

It also doesn't help that animated shields make actually holding a shield completely redundant. Problem with shields is the defensive benefit they offer doesn't outweigh sacrificing the offensive capability of a two-hander or another one-hander. That's probably why PF gave it some offensive capability to make up for it. Instead though they should have just boosted the defensive properties to the point where it's worth the loss in offence.

[Mastikator]

Trip, sunder, disarm, bullrush and the other kinds of special attack that could potentially make combat interesting for martial classes if only they weren't penalized for it both in and out of game.
*sigh* ... nevermind :/

edit, sneak attack with Feign, but then you have to be a rogue.

[Lactantius]

Sword & Board is totally underrated.
Assuming you have no easy-substitute like animated shield online (you shouldn' use that effect), you can improve your defence capability pretty good.
That's if you include the PH2, which gives a significant booost to shieldbearers.

shield specialization is no real loss since most fighters will use one style of shield (mainly large shield).
It is another +1 AC besides possible enhancement bonus. Furthermore, you have one more "armorlike" item for special enchantments like fortification, death ward, energy resistance and so on. Just check the MIC enchantments.

Shield Ward counters one dangerous mechanic: caster's rays and touch attacks and trippers, chargers, grapplers.

[Shadowleaf]

I was the one calling Natural Spell out as a feat tax so I'd like to add that I don't consider TWF or Power Attack feat taxes. Natural Spell is a feat tax because you don't really have any choice in whether or not to take it. Now arguably you could say the same about TWF or PA, you generally have to take one of them as a melee fighter. However you do get to choose between them, and you never normally need to take both. Furthermore it's only something you have to take if you're playing a melee class that lacks class features (like a fighter) that can make up for it.

TWF and PA may be some of the more essential feats but I don't consider them a tax because they're not a false choice like natural spell is. Sure it's a limited choice, you either take one route or another (generally anyway) but I'd still hesitate to call it a tax. Especially since you can actually get away with taking neither if you build your fighter as an archer.

Basically the only reason I consider Natural Spell a feat tax is it's something that Druids just have to take at level 6 without question. I don't consider PA and TWF as being nearly as mandatory.



It also doesn't help that animated shields make actually holding a shield completely redundant. Problem with shields is the defensive benefit they offer doesn't outweigh sacrificing the offensive capability of a two-hander or another one-hander. That's probably why PF gave it some offensive capability to make up for it. Instead though they should have just boosted the defensive properties to the point where it's worth the loss in offence.Druids can do just fine without Natural Spell, it just shifts their role. Melee, barring ToB/Psychic Warrior and such, are much more reliant on Power Attack or TWF than Druids are on Natural Spell. This is mostly because of the inherent strength of the Druid kit.

[Rejusu]

Druids can do just fine without Natural Spell, it just shifts their role. Melee, barring ToB/Psychic Warrior and such, are much more reliant on Power Attack or TWF than Druids are on Natural Spell. This is mostly because of the inherent strength of the Druid kit.

Whether they can do just fine without it isn't the issue. The issue is that there's no real reason why you shouldn't take it. Feats are supposed to be about customisation. When you select a feat the question you should be asking is:
"Why am I taking this feat?"

The problem with Natural Spell is the question becomes:
"Why wouldn't I take this feat?"

Quite frankly there's absolutely no reason not to take it, at least none I can think of. Melee may be more reliant on TWF or Power Attack but there are reasons for them not to take those feats. If you're going Power Attack you're probably going for a two-handed fighting style so you're probably not going to take TWF and vice versa. I'm not saying Druids don't deserve this feat tax (they do), I'm just saying it's a tax because it's pretty much a non-choice as to whether you take it or not.

[Harry]

You could build a tripper you could play a ToB class you could play a duskblade you could play a totemist or psychic warrior there are a lot of options beside power attack and two weapon fighting

[Metahuman1]

Tripping, Nat weapons, Maybe Dungeoncrashing with bulls rush if allowed, maybe mounted combat, extensive use of poison, and if they can get the magic support some how size increases to make Grappling and both armed and unarmed combat as viable as it's gonna get.

[Snowbluff]

Clerics still exist as well.

[Thespianus]

I'm not saying Druids don't deserve this feat tax (they do), I'm just saying it's a tax because it's pretty much a non-choice as to whether you take it or not.
Basically NA is so powerful, it could be "taxed" as two feats.

"You want NA for your Druid at 6? Skip your 3rd or 9th feat as well".

[TuggyNE]

Basically NA is so powerful, it could be "taxed" as two feats.

"You want NA for your Druid at 6? Skip your 3rd or 9th feat as well".

I.e., "Natural Verbal Spellcasting", "Natural Somatic Spellcasting" (or something)?