How should I build a character to kill Nerull?

[Glassteel]

Okay, I'm not sure if I should start a thread for this, but I don't know where else to post it, so if this is wrong, tell me and I'll delete this. For now though...

Here's my set up. There are only three of us involved. Me, my DM, and our one other player for this quick campaign we ran recently. We played Gestalt characters with hand-waved LA. I ran a homebrewed Nymph elemental variant (about an LA+3) and the other guy ran three different characters, switching everytime he tired of one, and the DM ran a handful of DMPCs and NPCs. At the end of the campaign, a dark prophecy came true. My character's soul was pulled from her body and Nerull took over her. Using her power, he literally burned the world to ashes (rebuilt Pyrokineticist/Artificer). After I got my body back, I realized I lost all my gear (even the clothes on my back), all my class levels, skills, feats, abilities, EVERYTHING. Nerull even took my love interest! So, my character has been robbed of everything she ever accomplished, every dream she ever had, and meanwhile, the other player's character, a faithful follower of Nerull, gets promoted and becomes a lesser deity.

Now that you're up to speed on my situation, you probably understand why I'm here. I want to keep playing this character and get some closure. New goal in life? Deicide, aimed at Nerull. Can anyone help me build a Gestalt character with the specific goal of killing a greater god? I was thinking either Cleric or Druid up one side, but I haven't settled on anything. Also, I may have to make some or most of my gear....but I'm good at that part

If it's important, all my stats are high (I got some nice Sacred and Inherent bonuses that I got to keep, on top of reasonable racials), and I'd like to keep my Chaotic Good alignment...

[ngilop]

well its really not that hard to be honest, what level are you looking at? be wizard/cleric and then just ice assassin nerull to death from your dmei plane and your astrla projection

[TuggyNE]

The main classic difficulty is getting around portfolio sense*. You'll probably need to do some tricky shenanigans to lock in the success of your scheme a sufficiently long time before it triggers that Nerull can only detect the parts (looking forward/backward) that are already unstoppable.

Pretty sure other posters will have specifics, but I think that's the general challenge here.


*You can sometimes try to argue that the death of a god doesn't affect their portfolio directly, but when their portfolio contains death that just doesn't fly.

[Calanon]

Okay, I'm not sure if I should start a thread for this, but I don't know where else to post it, so if this is wrong, tell me and I'll delete this. For now though...

Here's my set up. There are only three of us involved. Me, my DM, and our one other player for this quick campaign we ran recently. We played Gestalt characters with hand-waved LA. I ran a homebrewed Nymph elemental variant (about an LA+3) and the other guy ran three different characters, switching everytime he tired of one, and the DM ran a handful of DMPCs and NPCs. At the end of the campaign, a dark prophecy came true. My character's soul was pulled from her body and Nerull took over her. Using her power, he literally burned the world to ashes (rebuilt Pyrokineticist/Artificer). After I got my body back, I realized I lost all my gear (even the clothes on my back), all my class levels, skills, feats, abilities, EVERYTHING. Nerull even took my love interest! So, my character has been robbed of everything she ever accomplished, every dream she ever had, and meanwhile, the other player's character, a faithful follower of Nerull, gets promoted and becomes a lesser deity.

Now that you're up to speed on my situation, you probably understand why I'm here. I want to keep playing this character and get some closure. New goal in life? Deicide, aimed at Nerull. Can anyone help me build a Gestalt character with the specific goal of killing a greater god? I was thinking either Cleric or Druid up one side, but I haven't settled on anything. Also, I may have to make some or most of my gear....but I'm good at that part

If it's important, all my stats are high (I got some nice Sacred and Inherent bonuses that I got to keep, on top of reasonable racials), and I'd like to keep my Chaotic Good alignment...

Hey! congrats on qualifying for the Ur-Priest class! :smallbiggrin:

Even in Gestalted Epic it is incredibly hard to kill a God permanently without a Divine Rank (I've made many a threads about killing deities... Unfortunately even the great knowledge of the playground isn't entirely sure on how to kill a god...)

If your willing to make a contract with one of Nerulls enemies (Hieroneous, Pholtus, Rao, St. Cuthbert) I'm confident one of them would be willing to give you a Divine Rank so you atleast have a chance to defeat him... Now I have to ask, is your DM using the Dicefreak Nerull (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=245)? Or the Deities and Demigods Nerull? because if its the Deities and Demigods you can always send wave and wave of Ice Assassins while in your Demiplane, but if its the Dicefreaks one that isn't an option since he can just appear right behind you and BOOM your dead automatically... Unfortunately there is NO correct way to kill a god and I can't think of anything by RAW that can kill a god... You could always challenge the god to a contest for his/her divine rank (if Divinity is finite) or you can become a god yourself starting a cult based around something that counters Nerull (Idk Immortality? I'm sure you'll become a greater deity in a week)

tl;dr No way to kill a god unless the DM helps you... and from the looks of things your DM isn't going to do that any time soon...

[Coidzor]

Well, the only times I've heard of Death dying have involved all life in the universe being extinguished so he had to be recalled, a bigger god coming around and deciding he was ready to make the next version of reality, or involved Cthulhu.

Any of those might work.

Actually, getting Tharizdun released and on his way to unmake the multiverse would actually be an appropriate motivation here. :smallamused:

[Ravens_cry]

Get Bill Door to help. He'd do a much better job than Nerull any day.

[Glassteel]

Anything specific to recommend tho? I'm looking at killing him as quickly as possible, maybe just a couple rounds. The weapon I have in mind is a heavily enchanted Great hammer
Probably gonna be near epic if not actually epic when I try to go for this

[Calanon]

Anything specific to recommend tho? I'm looking at killing him as quickly as possible, maybe just a couple rounds. The weapon I have in mind is a heavily enchanted Great hammer

Look, your not going to kill a god in combat... I don't care how OP your character is gods are just THAT powerful... however... there alternatives to fighting...


Actually, getting Tharizdun released and on his way to unmake the multiverse would actually be an appropriate motivation here. :smallamused:

I.e. having someone else do it for you :smallbiggrin: Tharizdun has a vested interest in destroying (not killing) everything so go out of your way to free him and your well on your way to destroying the gods OR you can do what Vecna did (Go to Sigil and rewrite all of creation making yourself the only god) but you might have to die by the lady of pain (It won't be a fight... trust me...)

EDIT: hell I think you might even be able to get Nerull to help you kill him (Yes, Nerull will help you kill Nerull, i know it sounds crazy but hear me out)

Nerull gets off when people die and he loves to get off and if Tharizdun is released there WILL be a lot of death that Nerull is going to have to watch over, so I'm confident he'll be over joyed to have his followers assist you in freeing Tharizdun... Complete and utter annihilation makes Nerullians happy campers :smallamused:

EDIT2: Listen to Coidzor, he's a smart pickle :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

The box, you must think outside of it. Beyond Ice Assassins and private demiplanes which are protected against all intrusions and using mind rape and love's pain on a captured serf in order to lure out your former companion and ganking him when he makes a fatal error so that you can steal his divine essence to begin mega-manning your way up to Nerull. Hell, you've got to think further out of the box than hunting down all of the quasi and hero deities as well as demigods that you can find while they're gallivanting on the material in order to steal their essence so that you can become a deity yourself.

Focusing on using a greathammer to do the job is more like thinking inside of a square.

Maybe if you can determine that deific power is mostly determined by belief, even if it's not worship, and you can find some way to either undermine belief in death or funnel belief in death away from Nerull specifically but to his rivals, or even funnel it to your former ally so that Nerull is more likely to do the job of rewarding him for his betrayal properly for you... That might be sufficiently out of the box, for starters anyway.

[Glassteel]

Large size greathammer (bracers for Powerful Build), +5 (at least), Blessed, Curshing (if that's the +5 damage one), Improved Critical (17-20, X4), Manyfang (X4 Every hit, X7 Critical), Bane Evil Outsiders (+2, +2d6 afterward), Greater Mighty Wallop at CL 20 (+5 size categories), Enlarge Person (+1 size category), Giant Size (even more size categories, since they always stack), Heavenly Burst (more stacking damage), Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Cha to damage) and a few more silly things to (hopefully) beat him down fast. I hadn't considered using his enemies against him sadly, I was so focused on just gutting him the old fashioned way lol. Cleric/Wizard is a combo I hadn't considered, is there an optimization handbook anyone can direct me to for this sort of thing? I'd like to look at actual builds to try to figure out how to approach this

[Wavelab]

Calanon was proven to be a genius through that one post for great minds think alike and I agree with that post, so he has to be a great mind too.

So yes you're not gonna do it yourself, so you will get someone else to do it for you.

From a brief glance I think that Mellifleur would be a good idea. Convince some good deities to help him so that evil is kept in balance.

But of course. That is boring. There are much better things you could do. I suggest a Xanatos gambit. If you want inspiration on how to defeat your enemy I suggest the anime series Death Note.

You could appear to be one of Nerull's allies while getting close to him and orchestrating his death. Now for inspiration from one of my favorites. Vecna(the other being Asmodeus): Every being has a weakness that they do not wish someone to know about, if you can find it and manipulate it, you win.

[Calanon]

Calanon was proven to be a genius through that one post

This is the greatest comment ever made on this forum in the history of ever...


So yes you're not gonna do it yourself, so you will get someone else to do it for you.

From a brief glance I think that Mellifleur would be a good idea. Convince some good deities to help him so that evil is kept in balance.

Not as Nihilistic as most of my plans but it would certainly work. No matter how your going to go about taking down a god your going to need help from someone or something, I remember one time hearing about an artifact that took away a deities divine rank; I wanna say its Forgotten Realms but I'm not to sure...


But of course. That is boring. There are much better things you could do.

True facts...


I suggest a Xanatos gambit. If you want inspiration on how to defeat your enemy I suggest the anime series Death Note.

You don't want a Xanatos Gambit, you NEED one... 9/10 times whatever your going to do to kill a god, its probably going to take you down as well so yeah...


You could appear to be one of Nerull's allies while getting close to him and orchestrating his death. Now for inspiration from one of my favorites. Vecna(the other being Asmodeus): Every being has a weakness that they do not wish someone to know about, if you can find it and manipulate it, you win.

Unfortunately appearing as an Ally to Nerull isn't possible since he was already possessed by him (How? I DON'T KNOW! :smallbiggrin:) so yeah...

On the subject of every creature having a weakness... This is all to true the universe eventually just evens itself out like one great big game of Rock-Paper-Scissors. No matter who you are, how powerful you are, or what you can do, Someone somewhere in some time can defeat you in a single standard action...

For Vecna? Its his Phylactery, He can hide it and place it anywhere he wants, Make it so nobody in creation can find it, do everything in his power to make it so nobody can find it but ultimately one person can find his phylactery in less then a round... Orcus can find it... Vecna is a Lich and Orcus is the Prince of Undead and by default automatically knows everything about Undead creatures the moment they enter the sweet embrace of Undeath...

Anywho! Just find the one person who is always bigger then Nerull :smallbiggrin:

[Wavelab]

For Vecna? Its his Phylactery, He can hide it and place it anywhere he wants, Make it so nobody in creation can find it, do everything in his power to make it so nobody can find it but ultimately one person can find his phylactery in less then a round... Orcus can find it... Vecna is a Lich and Orcus is the Prince of Undead and by default automatically knows everything about Undead creatures the moment they enter the sweet embrace of Undeath...

Anywho! Just find the one person who is always bigger then Nerull :smallbiggrin:

I actually meant that's Vecna's philosophy. God of secrets :smallbiggrin:

[Calanon]

I actually meant that's Vecna's philosophy. God of secrets :smallbiggrin:

Ah but for a secret to exist it must be known by at least one person and my mother raised me believing that there is no such thing as one because there is always two therefore a secret is always known by 2 people; The person keeping the secret and a mysterious force known as "The Ears of the Others"

[Wavelab]

Ah but for a secret to exist it must be known by at least one person and my mother raised me believing that there is no such thing as one because there is always two therefore a secret is always known by 2 people; The person keeping the secret and a mysterious force known as "The Ears of the Others"

Yes I suppose we could go with that. So bottom line fine Nerull's weakness and you win.

[Calanon]

Yes I suppose we could go with that. So bottom line fine Nerull's weakness and you win.

By RAW this spell certainly gets the job done against most if not ALL gods... (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/eternity-of-torture--207/) Provided they fail the save... highly unlikely but eh a man can dream... But a Lich? a Lich can do... :smallamused:

Explanation: The God is immune to the ability damage but thats not what we are looking for, we're looking to make the god Helpless and thus vulnerable to a Coup'd grace :smallamused: the joke behind the Lich thing is... well it has no purpose I just like saying that... :smallredface:

[Wavelab]

By RAW this spell certainly gets the job done against most if not ALL gods... (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/eternity-of-torture--207/) Provided they fail the save... highly unlikely but eh a man can dream... But a Lich? a Lich can do... :smallamused:

Explanation: The God is immune to the ability damage but thats not what we are looking for, we're looking to make the god Helpless and thus vulnerable to a Coup'd grace :smallamused: the joke behind the Lich thing is... well it has no purpose I just like saying that... :smallredface:

Seems good. Problem though, depending on the level of Nerull's power he might always roll natural 20's.

Oh and I like replacing vampire instead of lich :smallbiggrin: But undead are friends are we not.

[Calanon]

Seems good. Problem though, depending on the level of Nerull's power he might always roll natural 20's.

Greater Deity but I believe your supposed to roll and if its not a natural 20 then you just pretend its a 20 and add it to the save

Ex. Nerull would automatically have a Fort save of 76 (56 + 20 automatically) however despite that you still roll 1d20 for his fortitude save as per normal and he rolls a 5 this would automatically add 15 to the roll treating it as a 20 lets adjust the situation a little, this time Nerull rolled a natural 20. The DC for the spell could be infinity billion for all we care and Nerull still succeeds.

To make it simplier, a spellcasters DC for Eternity of Torture is 77 and Nerull rolls his fortitude save and rolls a 5 due to being a greater deity its treated as a 20 instead (Not a natural 20 but a "divine" 20) making it 76, Nerull fails the saving throw. In the same instance he rolls a natural 20 instead (The dice stands on "20") Nerull succeeds the saving throw in this instance :smalltongue:


Oh and I like replacing vampire instead of lich :smallbiggrin: But undead are friends are we not.

Well that depends, sorcerer or wizard?

[Wavelab]

Well that depends, sorcerer or wizard?

Dread Necromancer :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Well that depends. I like the versatility of the wizard but the spontaneous casting of the sorcerer. It's a pretty hard choice, I usually just settle for both and go erudite though. If I had to choose one it'd be wizard.

[Calanon]

Dread Necromancer :smallbiggrin:

OoO Exotic :smallamused: I don't actually get to meet a lot of those to often... However I don't get out of my lab to often to be able to talk to anyone living... to much studying :smalltongue:

Can't see why we shouldn't be able to be "Homies" :smallwink:

[Diarmuid]

Greater Deity but I believe your supposed to roll and if its not a natural 20 then you just pretend its a 20 and add it to the save

Ex. Nerull would automatically have a Fort save of 76 (56 + 20 automatically) however despite that you still roll 1d20 for his fortitude save as per normal and he rolls a 5 this would automatically add 15 to the roll treating it as a 20 lets adjust the situation a little, this time Nerull rolled a natural 20. The DC for the spell could be infinity billion for all we care and Nerull still succeeds.

To make it simplier, a spellcasters DC for Eternity of Torture is 77 and Nerull rolls his fortitude save and rolls a 5 due to being a greater deity its treated as a 20 instead (Not a natural 20 but a "divine" 20) making it 76, Nerull fails the saving throw. In the same instance he rolls a natural 20 instead (The dice stands on "20") Nerull succeeds the saving throw in this instance :smalltongue:
?

Cal, would this mean that if Nerull rolled a Natural 1 that he would fail? Or does the "add whatever is necessary to make the value 20" trump the "natural 1's always fail"? Seems a bit counterintuitive if he can "auto succeed" when he normally wouldnt be able to succeed but cant "auto fail"...but again, we're talking about Gods so things dont have to make sense.

[Wavelab]

I was under the impression that greater deities dont roll everything they do is considered a natural 20 so auto succeed. Should probably take a glance of the SRD.

[TuggyNE]

Cal, would this mean that if Nerull rolled a Natural 1 that he would fail? Or does the "add whatever is necessary to make the value 20" trump the "natural 1's always fail"? Seems a bit counterintuitive if he can "auto succeed" when he normally wouldnt be able to succeed but cant "auto fail"...but again, we're talking about Gods so things dont have to make sense.


Deities of rank 1 or higher do not automatically fail on a natural saving throw roll of 1.

So it's a separate ability that Nerull already has.

[Calanon]

Cal, would this mean that if Nerull rolled a Natural 1 that he would fail? Or does the "add whatever is necessary to make the value 20" trump the "natural 1's always fail"? Seems a bit counterintuitive if he can "auto succeed" when he normally wouldnt be able to succeed but cant "auto fail"...but again, we're talking about Gods so things dont have to make sense.

Well seeing that...


A deity’s outsider Hit Dice and character level determine its base saving throw bonuses. A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all saving throws. Deities of rank 1 or higher do not automatically fail on a natural saving throw roll of 1.

I would say no but since Deities and Demigods is so confusing with its text...

First it says that they receive the best possible results of a roll (which would be a natural 20) but then CustServ says that it just adds the difference between the result and a 20 :smallannoyed:

EDIT: If Deities always receives the best possible rolls for anything they matter as well have Maximize spell (Which it does state they virtually have) that can effect Epic Spells... So whats keeping a deity from making a spell that does ass backwards amount of dice worth of damage and they just go around killing gods and stealing there divine rank with raw damage :smallannoyed:

[Myth]

1. Deities and Demigods is 3.0 Use the SRD rules instead and convert the character sheets for the gods to 3.5 (this is your DM's job, but just sayin')

2. Alter Reality means he has every published spell permanencied on himself, along with a permanent AMF that does not affect him. This is not reflected on his character sheet, but Alter Reality makes it pretty clear.

3.By examining greater deities you can make the following observations:

- They have a lot of immunites, which you can likewise get via spells and templates. See Team Solars for example.
- They have a lot of hitpoints, HD, BAB and cool weapons. Absolutely irrelevant at high level play.
- They have Salient Divine Abilites which range from the divine variant of the Toughness feat to things that absolutely wreck your game.
- They have Portfolio Sense and other nice sensing abilities.

4. The worst of the lot is Supreme Initiative since that means that the deity always goes first. Since it has a permanent Foresight spell on, remember?

5. Salient Life and Death is another, which basically just kills you unless you have Epic magic protecting you versus it's effect.

6. The usual argument is "get Epic spells" - I would warn you against that, since the DnD pantheon requires followers to function and the Greater Deities have very RAW defined followings, with numbers of followers, locations, temples, wealth of the cult etc. It is then entirely impossible to beat a Deity at epic magic, who has several thousand spellcasters that would donate spell slots for him to develop and casts Epic spells, and who have unlimited resources and may also craft Artifacts.

7. If your deity does not posses Supreme Initative and Salient Life and Death and your DM helps you get around the Portfolio Sense then you have a shot of killing it. Really, anything would do - a beefed up Searing Spell Orb of Fire that does twice it's listed HP drops the deity instantly. Things like Initate of Mystra and being a Dweomerkeeper help with it's AMF shenanigans.

Honestly, being an arcane Dweomerkeeper Cindy/Mailman will allow you to smoke him with 1 (one) Su [Searing Spell] Orb of Fire stacked absurdly with metamagic. Mix in Incantatrix for extra sauce.

If it does have Supreme Initative you're screwed unless the DM wants to help.

Forget about Ice Assassin, that only works in RAW arguments and the deluded Pun-Pun build. Any sane DM who knows how DnD gods work knows that they derive power from worship and thus the Ice Assassin will be just that of a 20 HD Outsider who looks like Nerull.

Forget about farming DR0 or DR1 deities to "level up" in divine ranks. Unfortunately for you these are not goblns, and there is an overdeity who is greatly concerned with the power structure of the gods and how their assigned dutues are performed. You can't win against an overdeity since their entire description is basically "It's rule 0 made legal"

You can go and look for level 10 or 11 spells. Not stupid Epic magic from 3.5, I'm talking about the real deal, stuff left over from Netherill. What's Netherill? Well surely you can take a Spelljammer ship and go to Alber-Toril to find out. If there's a source of level 10 spells and a very high Epic level lich like Larloch who could grant you knowledge of them in Greyhawk well then go there (I am no scholar of that setting as you can tell).

Now, knowing all that I said, let's look at our buddy Nerull's list of SDAs:


Alter Reality, Alter Size, Arcane Mastery, Area Divine Shield, Annihilating Strike, Avatar, Control Creatures (undead), Craft Artifact, Create Greater Object, Create Object, Divine Blast, Divine Celerity, Divine Creation, Divine Spell Focus (Necromancy), Divine Shield, Increased Spell Resistance, Hand of Death, Life and Death, Life Drain, Spontaneous Wizard Spells, Supreme Initiative

Hoookay then, I guess you're going to have to bribe your dm :smallbiggrin:

[Feralventas]

Wild-shape Ranger 5 into Planer Shepard 10 and Scout after that with Swift Hunter for one side of your gestalt. On the other, pure Warblade if it's allowed, and emphasize the Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind schools, in that order.

The plane you align yourself with for Planer Shepard is The Concordant Planes of the Outland. The central hub of that plane nullifies supernatural powers of all sorts as you get closer, and at its peak negates even greater deity powers and attributes.

Move into proximity, activate your planer bubble, and beat an old man to death with all of your non-magical warblade might.

Edit: Tiger claw because your WildShape options will be good to take advantage of the natural-attack and TWF options from Ranger, and Diamond Mind so that you can make a Concentration Check in place of a save to make sure you survive getting to him in the first place.

[Taelas]

He has Life and Death.

He sees you. You die. No saving throw, no attack roll, you can't be raised or resurrected (except by a deity of equal or higher DvR as Nerull that also has Life and Death).

That's assuming you get around his Portfolio Sense and Remote Seeing somehow to actually get within sight of him. He has Supreme Initiative, so he goes first.

As a mortal, it. is. not. possible.

[Feralventas]

I think the planer bubble above would defend against that. It means the user would be stuck with no magic items period, and I doubt most of VoP would help with that, so they'd need to amp the hell out of their natural jump check to be able to keep up with Nerul's magical movements, and might want to consider Swordsage in place of Warblade to use some of the repositioning options, though Shadow Hand and Desert Wind are off the table since they're supernatural.

[Myth]

Wild-shape Ranger 5 into Planer Shepard 10 and Scout after that with Swift Hunter for one side of your gestalt. On the other, pure Warblade if it's allowed, and emphasize the Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind schools, in that order.

The plane you align yourself with for Planer Shepard is The Concordant Planes of the Outland. The central hub of that plane nullifies supernatural powers of all sorts as you get closer, and at its peak negates even greater deity powers and attributes.

Move into proximity, activate your planer bubble, and beat an old man to death with all of your non-magical warblade might.

Edit: Tiger claw because your WildShape options will be good to take advantage of the natural-attack and TWF options from Ranger, and Diamond Mind so that you can make a Concentration Check in place of a save to make sure you survive getting to him in the first place.

1. How do you go first?

Permanent Foresight + Supreme Initiative + Remote Sensing you from 17 miles away + Portfolio Sense [Death] from 17 weeks before you killed him.

He is never flatfooted. He always goes first. He can sense you across planes and no amount of non-detection can help. He knows about how you kill him 17 weeks in advance.


Provided you do go first (which you can't), how do you:

2. Deal 840 hp worth of damage in one round without any magic items to amp your attacks/ubercharging capabilities and without improved PA from Fernzied Berzerker etc. He is immune to critical hits FYI and I don't think you have any non-magical means to lower immunity to crits on that. He also has so much AC (77) you won't be able to use PA effectively, if you can hit him at all without magical items.

Oh wait, it gets better. He has DR 30/Epic and you have no way of bypassing it without a magical item or a natural attack that counts as Epic for overcoming DR.

Because, you know, when he gets to act, he will move out of the range of your planar bubble and destroy you.

[Calanon]

He has Life and Death.

He sees you. You die. No saving throw, no attack roll, you can't be raised or resurrected (except by a deity of equal or higher DvR as Nerull that also has Life and Death).

That's assuming you get around his Portfolio Sense and Remote Seeing somehow to actually get within sight of him. He has Supreme Initiative, so he goes first.

As a mortal, it. is. not. possible.

Step one: Become Undead
Step two: Yell at your DM when he brings you back (COMPLETELY against Nerull's Beliefs and philosophies)

Your already dead and since you cannot kill a god (Only destroy) you are effectively immune to his portfolio sense, Nerulls destruction would NOT effect his portfolio in the slightest since Death is a force of nature and even if there is a god of death or not it will happen.

He has Supreme Initiative, so he goes first... Until you use Celerity which completely over rides the Initiative count and allows you to perform a single standard action... like casting a spell :smalltongue:


1. Deities and Demigods is 3.0 Use the SRD rules instead and convert the character sheets for the gods to 3.5 (this is your DM's job, but just sayin')

I enjoy using the Dicefreaks Deities when discussing 3.5 character stats for deities Here are Nerulls (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=245) Pretty impressive if i say so myself...


2. Alter Reality means he has every published spell permanencied on himself, along with a permanent AMF that does not affect him. This is not reflected on his character sheet, but Alter Reality makes it pretty clear.

Where the hell does it say this? :smallconfused: Does this mean I can use Wish to negate Nerulls Divine Salient Abilities? Since Alter Reality functions as wish :smallannoyed:




4. The worst of the lot is Supreme Initiative since that means that the deity always goes first. Since it has a permanent Foresight spell on, remember?

No... He doesn't... I want to know a source that states that deities have all spells cast on them permanently...


5. Salient Life and Death is another, which basically just kills you unless you have Epic magic protecting you versus it's effect.

If Epic Magic is allowed then this entire argument is pretty damn moot :smallannoyed:


7. If your deity does not posses Supreme Initative and Salient Life and Death and your DM helps you get around the Portfolio Sense then you have a shot of killing it. Really, anything would do - a beefed up Searing Spell Orb of Fire that does twice it's listed HP drops the deity instantly. Things like Initate of Mystra and being a Dweomerkeeper help with it's AMF shenanigans.

Its already been noted that you are NEVER going to be able to defeat a god in a head to head fight.


Forget about Ice Assassin, that only works in RAW arguments and the deluded Pun-Pun build. Any sane DM who knows how DnD gods work knows that they derive power from worship and thus the Ice Assassin will be just that of a 20 HD Outsider who looks like Nerull.

Any sane DM would have made an Overdeity appear and stop Nerull before he even considered what he was doing. However Nerull is an Oerthian Deity and I'm not sure that the Oerthian pantheon has any overdeities... ah well


Forget about farming DR0 or DR1 deities to "level up" in divine ranks. Unfortunately for you these are not goblns, and there is an overdeity who is greatly concerned with the power structure of the gods and how their assigned dutues are performed. You can't win against an overdeity since their entire description is basically "It's rule 0 made legal"

Overdeities are not stated out, They simply exist because the DM says they do, The Immortals Handbook - Ascension literally states that Supreme Beings (Overdeities if you will) Do not have any stats that can be limited on a character sheet and as such can simple do things because they can. They are an extension of the DM. "Nerull is killing mortals through a possessed mortal on the Material plane with his god like powers? WELL as long as they are HIS worshipers it should be fine... what!? they worship Pelor!? I've got to stop him!" Overdeities are supposed to not only be an extension of the DM they are supposed to be the immovable object that stops Deities from ruling over there followers like kings instead of being Guardians to them, honestly If deities could do whatever they wanted would they REALLY ever answer there followers request for miracles?


You can go and look for level 10 or 11 spells. Not stupid Epic magic from 3.5, I'm talking about the real deal, stuff left over from Netheril. What's Netheril? Well surely you can take a Spelljammer ship and go to Alber-Toril to find out. If there's a source of level 10 spells and a very high Epic level lich like Larloch who could grant you knowledge of them in Greyhawk well then go there (I am no scholar of that setting as you can tell).

...I can tell you aren't a scholar on the history of Alber-Toril... seeing as how 10th level and higher spells are impossible anywhere else BUT Alber-Toril (And even there its not allowed) The only known spell that could defeat a god was called Avatar and it was created by a Netherese Arcanist (Perhaps the greatest of them all) called "Karsus". The Spell essentially stole the deities divinity (or allowed the caster access to the deities divine powers, obviously this didn't even allow SR or a Saving Throw) this spell accomplished the following:

-Stole (Some scholars would disagree and say it allowed the caster access) all the Deities divine powers
-Shut off all Magic in Alber-Toril for a good 3 rounds (It really says 18 seconds in Netheril: Empire of Magic)
-Killed Mystral because Karsus couldn't control her power and the only way to save the weave was to die
-Changed the rules of Magic on Alber-Toril (Preventing access to 10th+ Spells) and making magic more dependent on the caster and giving less stress to the weave.

Ugh, I'm going to need some heavily spiked Terran Brandy after this day is through... :smallsigh:

EDIT: Screw it, I'm going to make an Epic spell real quick that can completely kill a god in a single turn.


Irisvir's Spirit Roar

Evocation [Sonic]
Spellcraft DC: 104
Components: None
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 300 ft.
Target: A bolt 5 ft. wide to 300 ft. long
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Half
Spell Resistance: Yes

Seeds: Energy (19)

To Develop: 936,000gp; 19 days; 37,440xp

Factors: +110d6 damage (+220), Increase dice size to d20 (+40), No Somantic/Verbal Components (+4), 1-action casting (+20), +100 to DC (+200), +100 to overcome SR (+200)

Mitigating Factors: Burns 20,000 XP (-200), Backlash 42d6 (-42), 21 spellcasters giving up a 9th lvl spell slot. (-357)

This spell was originally used by Irisvir "The Lion of Netheril" in his confrontations with various deities he commonly yelled "EAT ****!" when casting this spell. This deals raw unfiltered sonic damage at the enemy, dealing 120d20 damage to the target. in most cases this would auto kill a living creature which is why this is reserved for deities.

XP:
20,000

I know what your thinking "This only proves how stupid Epic Magic is!" and you'd be right on that... but it also proves that just because your a god doesn't mean you can't be completely obliterated like any other creature...

COME AT ME GODS!

[tyckspoon]

..yeaah. Good luck getting within 300 feet of a Greater deity, with intent to harm it, and having all 21 of your helpers still capable of casting. (For reference notes: just using the weaker Deities & Demigods rules, a god's senses extend 1 mile per divine rank. A Greater god has a disabling aura that also extends 1 mile/rank. They have portfolio sense extending 1 year into the future/rank. They're a wee bit hard to sneak up on, and have absolutely no reason to get close enough to you for you to cast that at them.)


Where the hell does it say this? Does this mean I can use Wish to negate Nerulls Divine Salient Abilities? Since Alter Reality functions as wish


The deity can render a magical or supernatural effect permanent. The rest requirement varies with the effect: 10 minutes per level of the effect times the number of subjects affected, 10 minutes per total Hit Dice of creatures affected, or 10 minutes per 10-foot cube affected. Use the highest applicable value.

Any spell the deity can cast on itself, could reasonably induce a follower or servant being to cast on it, or could acquire from a magic item, can also be made permanent via Alter Reality. How many of them you actually have to deal with is basically a matter of how many the DM wants to write down on his notes, but from an in-world perspective the answer should be 'All of them' because the gods have no reason *not* to buff themselves this way.

[tyckspoon]

*grumble* Forum bug forcing doublepost, wanted to edit this to last post:

I just remembered/noticed that one of the options for Alter Reality is 'mimic any spell 9th level or lower', so ignore the bit about 'spells the deity can cast or get cast..'- Alter Reality makes it so the deity's options for spells to make permanent are simply All Of Them. Wizard, cleric, druid, Wu Jen, doesn't matter.

[Calanon]

..yeaah. Good luck getting within 300 feet of a Greater deity, with intent to harm it, and having all 21 of your helpers still capable of casting. (For reference notes: just using the weaker Deities & Demigods rules, a god's senses extend 1 mile per divine rank. A Greater god has a disabling aura that also extends 1 mile/rank. They have portfolio sense extending 1 year into the future/rank. They're a wee bit hard to sneak up on, and have absolutely no reason to get close enough to you for you to cast that at them.)

That spell was just made on the spot, If I really wanted to "try" I could make it so that It could Smack him while he's on the other side of the planet :smallannoyed: Making his Senses and Aura worthless. A Gods destruction doesn't trigger Portfolio sense (Especially if you are a god of death) the only thing that would pop on his radar is that he can't sense anything into the future anymore since past X/XX/20XX he doesn't exist anymore (Or he's a floating corpse in the Astral Plane whatever you'd like)


Any spell the deity can cast on itself, could reasonably induce a follower or servant being to cast on it, or could acquire from a magic item, can also be made permanent via Alter Reality. How many of them you actually have to deal with is basically a matter of how many the DM wants to write down on his notes, but from an in-world perspective the answer should be 'All of them' because the gods have no reason *not* to buff themselves this way. One of the options for Alter Reality is 'mimic any spell 9th level or lower', so ignore the bit about 'spells the deity can cast or get cast..'- Alter Reality makes it so the deity's options for spells to make permanent are simply All Of Them. Wizard, cleric, druid, Wu Jen, doesn't matter.

Fine, then we throw the Dispel seed in there while we're making this bad boy. Lets rename the spell "The Crucible" if anyone gets that spoiler then you deserve a hi5 of sort.

[classy one]

You could not have Picked a worse god to kill. {{scrubbed}}the fact that this is a greater god of death means you just die with a thought. No save, no resurrection. That's it. You can't hide anywhere since he can sense you weeks in advance, and life and death works across planes so don't think you can create a demiplane and hide there.

You need to become a god yourself to even have a little shot at winning. Personally I think your DM is giving you a hint. Your PC is still alive only because Nerull wishes it. And Nerull is picking on you because your DM just doesn't like your PC for some reason.

The only way might win without becoming a god is to trick it into going to the inner most ring of the Outlands. There all his magic and divine abilities are sealed. Of course, so are yours and all your gear become mundane, but at least he lost more in going there. Remember he still does have a lot of HP and stats. You might want to bring some friends since one on one he will still own you (you lose all buffs here). I think the Athar are there and would love to kill a god if the chance presented itself.

[classy one]

Oh and about portfolio sense, if you really had a chance at killing him, you would pop up on his divine radar.
If you didn't, then you had no chance to begin with. He is the incarnation of his portfolio, his death will affect it (duh). The only way to get around this Outlands or gaining the protection of an even greater god.

[Calanon]

You could not have Picked a worse god to kill. Calanon is just trolling you, the fact that this is a greater god of death means you just die with a thought. No save, no resurrection. That's it. You can't hide anywhere since he can sense you weeks in advance, and life and death works across planes so don't think you can create a demiplane and hide there.

You know, I wouldn't have cared if you hadn't... ya know insulted me :smallannoyed: but hey! lets keep going!

The funny thing about Portfolio Sense is that it can't effect the god in question, want to know why? Because lets say for example a god of Law and Good were to suddenly die does this mean that the ideas of Law and Good cease to exist? No... so why would the destruction of a single god of death have ANYTHING to do with his Portfolio? Its not like when he dies people stop dying.

Become a Lich or some kind of undead. Nerull can't do jack to you anymore (Unless your DM wants to completely disregard fluff as to were you just start making Ice Assassins of Nerull and loot there divine ranks into Overdeityhood) meaning Nerull can only use the death effect of Life and Death.


You need to become a god yourself to even have a little shot at winning. Personally I think your DM is giving you a hint. Your PC is still alive only because Nerull wishes it. And Nerull is picking on you because your DM just doesn't like your PC for some reason.

Oh? So it seems Nerull is ignoring fluff... Looks like we can use the Ice Assassins trick


The only way might win without becoming a god is to trick it into going to the inner most ring of the Outlands. There all his magic and divine abilities are sealed. Of course, so are yours and all your gear become mundane, but at least he lost more in going there. Remember he still does have a lot of HP and stats. You might want to bring some friends since one on one he will still own you (you lose all buffs here). I think the Athar are there and would love to kill a god if the chance presented itself.

Hey! look at that by your definition Portfolio sense CAN'T SENSE ANYTHING ON THE OUTLANDS! meaning he can't target you with his life and death ability on the Outlands...

[classy one]

You know, I wouldn't have cared if you hadn't... ya know insulted me :smallannoyed: but hey! lets keep going! sorry I didn't think you were serious. I mean you just homebrewed a spell out of thin air and then altered it on the fly I really thought you were joking. Here I'll make up a epic spell and you tell me if you would take me seriously.

Kill god: level 38274 spell, range infinite, no save. The god you name dies and can't do anything about it. You gain a billion divine ranks. The end.

There end of debate.


Because lets say for example a god of Law and Good were to suddenly die does this mean that the ideas of Law and Good cease to exist? No... so why would the destruction of a single god of death have ANYTHING to do with his Portfolio? Its not like when he dies people stop dying. let's use a more practical example. Let's say I was the CEO of General Motors. It's an automotive company like other automotive companies. If I started making poor decisions and/or illegal dealings I could get fired or even bring down the company. But does that mean the automotive industry is over? No. Does it negatively affect a lot of people? Yes.
A god is like the head honcho of a certein aspect of reality. What happens to it has consequences to many people and that is what makes portfolio sense kick on, not the destruction of an aspect of reality.


Become a Lich or some kind of undead. Nerull can't do jack to you anymore (Unless your DM wants to completely disregard fluff as to were you just start making Ice Assassins of Nerull and loot there divine ranks into Overdeityhood) meaning Nerull can only use the death effect of Life and Death.
Yeah, not too sure ice assassin can dupe divine ranks. But if it could, by all means. Divinity itself is not that well defined. How you gain or lose it is unknown, and basically means up to your DM. And his DM doesn't sound like he'd go for it.





Hey! look at that by your definition Portfolio sense CAN'T SENSE ANYTHING ON THE OUTLANDS! meaning he can't target you with his life and death ability on the Outlands...
In the central ring of the Outlands, all magic is nullified so yes he could hide out there, but won't be casting anything. The Athar hide there because they offended a lot of gods and hide there in fear of their lives. The OP should learn from their mistake.

[Coidzor]

So springing Tharizdun sounds better all the time. Or at least set up a gambit years in advance to get someone to do it for you so that everything is set in place and certain before his sense would kick in...

Wait. Isn't there a godkilling Elder Evil?

[Calanon]

{{scrubbed}}

Let's use a more practical example. Let's say I was the CEO of General Motors. It's an automotive company like other automotive companies. If I started making poor decisions and/or illegal dealings I could get fired or even bring down the company. But does that mean the automotive industry is over? No. Does it negatively affect a lot of people? Yes.
A god is like the head honcho of a certein aspect of reality. What happens to it has consequences to many people and that is what makes portfolio sense kick on, not the destruction of an aspect of reality.

What? How does the god of Death dying effect reality in the slightest? Do you really believe that death didn't exist before Nerull? or that Secrets weren't made until Vecna ascended to godhood? A god is not an aspect of reality, if an aspect of reality were to suddenly not exist that means it would never occur ever after that until someone assumes that aspects portfolio (I.e. If Vecna is destroyed permanently nobody can keep secrets anymore)

If Gods are Aspects of Reality that means like the highlander there can only be one (Meaning if Nerull exist, Hades, Hel, Anubis, [insert other gods of death here] couldn't exist)

Sure his disappearance would certainly effect his followers but unfortunately his portfolio sense can't very well apply unless his Followers die as a direct result of his "death".


Yeah, not too sure ice assassin can dupe divine ranks. But if it could, by all means. Divinity itself is not that well defined. How you gain or lose it is unknown, and basically means up to your DM. And his DM doesn't sound like he'd go for it.

An Ice Assassin is effectively an exact double of your enemy the Ice assassin is under your control and desires for nothing more then to kill the original (I.e. Nerull) If Divinity is Natural and cannot be gained by having assbackwards amount of worshipers then by default the Ice Assassin possess the same Divine Rank as the Deity in question.


So springing Tharizdun sounds better all the time. Or at least set up a gambit years in advance to get someone to do it for you so that everything is set in place and certain before his sense would kick in...

Wait. Isn't there a godkilling Elder Evil?

Multiple. But since OP wants to beat Nerull in a head to head fight its not an option :smallannoyed:

[tyckspoon]

Here I'll make up a epic spell and you tell me if you would take me seriously.

Kill god: level 38274 spell, range infinite, no save. The god you name dies and can't do anything about it. You gain a billion divine ranks. The end.


Epic Spells can legit do this (aside from the 'gain divine rank' thing, because the only defined mechanism for that is having an existing god invest you with one as a proxy.) They're kind of silly that way. The thing is, if you control the resources necessary to develop and cast a spell like that, you already have enough power that you are functionally godlike or superior in every way except having actual divine ranks. So why are you wasting your time harassing the gods and not ruling your private planar paradise or whatever else it is that strikes your fancy as an omnipotent wizard?

[TuggyNE]

Your already dead and since you cannot kill a god (Only destroy) you are effectively immune to his portfolio sense, Nerulls destruction would NOT effect his portfolio in the slightest since Death is a force of nature and even if there is a god of death or not it will happen.

Wait, what? That doesn't even.... If there is any deity whose death would be touched on by its own portfolio sense, surely it would be the god of death!

Oh, and a side note: I am almost positive there's a spell for energy immunity; therefore Nerull is immune to sonic damage.

[Taelas]

Step one: Become Undead
Which accomplishes what, exactly? Undead are still not immortal, and so perfectly acceptable targets for Life and Death.


Your already dead and since you cannot kill a god (Only destroy) you are effectively immune to his portfolio sense, Nerulls destruction would NOT effect his portfolio in the slightest since Death is a force of nature and even if there is a god of death or not it will happen.
You're assuming you'd destroy only Nerull in your attempt. Where did you get that idea? :smallconfused:

Also, deities can die. It simply takes extraordinary things to accomplish it (such as through magical or physical combat). Even if you were to succeed, Nerull would know about it... seventeen weeks in advance.


He has Supreme Initiative, so he goes first... Until you use Celerity which completely over rides the Initiative count and allows you to perform a single standard action... like casting a spell :smalltongue:
Because there's no way he couldn't just cast Celerity too, amirite? :smallsigh:

There. Is. No. Way. To. Do. This.

[TuggyNE]

Which accomplishes what, exactly? Undead are still not immortal, and so perfectly acceptable targets for Life and Death.

Life and Death mentions it acts as a destruction effect with no saving throw or SR. Destruction has the [Death] keyword; undead are immune to such effects. Whatever the other flaws in his argument may be, you have to give him that. (Also, since when are undead "mortal"? They don't age, don't die naturally... they're poster children for immortality [gone wrong].)

[Ravens_cry]

Life and Death mentions it acts as a destruction effect with no saving throw or SR. Destruction has the [Death] keyword; undead are immune to such effects. Whatever the other flaws in his argument may be, you have to give him that. (Also, since when are undead "mortal"? They don't age, don't die naturally... they're poster children for immortality [gone wrong].)
Well, it depends if you mean "Can't die from old age." immortality or "Can't die at all." immortality.

[TuggyNE]

Well, it depends if you mean "Can't die from old age." immortality or "Can't die at all." immortality.

A good point, but if it's the latter there's maybe two entities in the multiverse that fit the definition -- the Lady of Pain (unstatted and therefore not really killable) and Ao (pretty much the same).

Clearer definitions in the source text might have been helpful, though.... :smallsigh:

I feel like I've been saying that a lot lately O_O

[Taelas]

Life and Death mentions it acts as a destruction effect with no saving throw or SR. Destruction has the [Death] keyword; undead are immune to such effects. Whatever the other flaws in his argument may be, you have to give him that. (Also, since when are undead "mortal"? They don't age, don't die naturally... they're poster children for immortality [gone wrong].)

You're right, Life and Death won't work against undead. I forgot destruction was a death effect.

Undead are not precisely mortal, but they are not precisely immortal, either. They exist in between somewhere. Deities are immortal--they even have a section describing their immortality. Undead do not.

Undead do age, it just doesn't have any consequences or benefits for them (generally). Zombies and liches continue to decay, for example. Some others, such as vampires or mummies, are preserved instead. Incorporeal undead do not have any bodies to decay or preserve, of course.

[Ravens_cry]

Liches have the appearance of a fairly long dead corpse, but if they actually decayed, well, let's just say they would be on a d10 day vacation every few months at most, shorter in some climates.
As for zombies decaying, just where does it say that, rule wise?

[Taelas]

Libris Mortis, page 5, describes zombies as a "corporeal, rotting" manifestation of undeath.

Liches do decay -- read their description in the Monster Manual.

It doesn't affect them or their capabilities, but that does not stop decay. (Gentle repose does, though.)

[demigodus]

To the OP:
what level are you?

How much cheese are you willing to use? (say, are you okay with infinite-wishing yourself top level gear? Are you willing to go Pun Pun?)

Also, if Nerull can sense his own death 17 weeks in advance, then he just has to be defeated without killing him. Somehow keep him in a coma/restrained/etc. for 18 weeks, then kill him. Unless learning of his own death knocks Nerull out of a coma, it won't help at that point. Of course, not quite sure if this is possible to pull off.

Alternative is to gain sufficient power to utterly exterminate Nerull, then wait 18 weeks before starting off on your quest to actually do so.

[Calanon]

Which accomplishes what, exactly? Undead are still not immortal, and so perfectly acceptable targets for Life and Death.

:smallannoyed: Undead are Immune to death effe...


You're right, Life and Death won't work against undead. I forgot destruction was a death effect.

...Oh nevermind you caught yourself :smallsmile:


Because there's no way he couldn't just cast Celerity too, amirite? :smallsigh:

There. Is. No. Way. To. Do. This.

Thats actually an interesting point. Does an Immediate action interrupt an enemies turn? Some people would agree while others would disagree. Personally? I'd like to believe they do, otherwise we just have casters spamming Celerity over and over again just to win initiative. Its not possible to spam Celerity as it is an Immediate Action and counts against your swift action count. I am still curious if Immediate Actions interrupt an enemies action forcing you to go first. due to Celeritys text it would read that you automatically get to pull off a single standard action regardless if the enemy caster also cast Celerity, so It would seem that whomever cast Celerity first acts first no matter what. (But then the whole "Everything happens at the same time" crap kicks in which makes it more confusing...)



To the OP:
what level are you?

How much cheese are you willing to use? (say, are you okay with infinite-wishing yourself top level gear? Are you willing to go Pun Pun?)

Also, if Nerull can sense his own death 17 weeks in advance, then he just has to be defeated without killing him. Somehow keep him in a coma/restrained/etc. for 18 weeks, then kill him. Unless learning of his own death knocks Nerull out of a coma, it won't help at that point. Of course, not quite sure if this is possible to pull off.

Alternative is to gain sufficient power to utterly exterminate Nerull, then wait 18 weeks before starting off on your quest to actually do so.

Eternity of Torture accomplishes this fairly easily all you gotta do is optimize the save up to 77 and then Nerull only has a 5% chance of surviving.

[Taelas]

Thats actually an interesting point. Does an Immediate action interrupt an enemies turn? Some people would agree while others would disagree. Personally? I'd like to believe they do, otherwise we just have casters spamming Celerity over and over again just to win initiative. Its not possible to spam Celerity as it is an Immediate Action and counts against your swift action count. I am still curious if Immediate Actions interrupt an enemies action forcing you to go first. due to Celeritys text it would read that you automatically get to pull off a single standard action regardless if the enemy caster also cast Celerity, so It would seem that whomever cast Celerity first acts first no matter what. (But then the whole "Everything happens at the same time" crap kicks in which makes it more confusing...)

Nothing prevents celerity-swapping, I'm afraid. If two casters with celerity roll initiative against each other, the first one to cast celerity loses... which usually means whoever rolls highest goes first. Of course, then the second to cast it will be dazed while the first to cast it gets his round... but that's not really a problem.

And yes, immediate actions can interrupt an enemy's action. (Celerity even specifically says it can do so.) It doesn't matter, though. You can take immediate actions even in the middle of your own turn.

Even waiting until your opponent uses a swift action won't make celerity any more than another swap, as immediate actions then simply use up the next turn's swift action, not the current one's.

[Calanon]

Nothing prevents celerity-swapping, I'm afraid. If two casters with celerity roll initiative against each other, the first one to cast celerity loses... which usually means whoever rolls highest goes first. Of course, then the second to cast it will be dazed while the first to cast it gets his round... but that's not really a problem.

I'm actually curious about Portfolio sense and Celerity, Nerull's Portfolio sense says he feels and senses the death and not what exactly lead to it until its about to happen (As to when he can remote sense it) meaning all he knows is that he is going to die and not how he is going to die.He doesn't know the spells you are preparing or what spells you are going to be casting against him all he knows is that he is going to die but he doesn't know how is going to kill him... I'm wondering if this changes the game.


And yes, immediate actions can interrupt an enemy's action. (Celerity even specifically says it can do so.) It doesn't matter, though. You can take immediate actions even in the middle of your own turn.

No i mean interrupt in the sense that after you cast it your opponent cannot do anything until your action resolves.


Even waiting until your opponent uses a swift action won't make celerity any more than another swap, as immediate actions then simply use up the next turn's swift action, not the current one's.

Little bit confused on this, elaborate if you may.

On a side note: After examining Elder Evils and Deities and Demigods a God has a MUCH easier time killing those "Apocalyptic Elder Evils" then... well everything else... Lets use Nerull and Atropus. All Nerull has to do is appear on the moonlet and look around him, he'll notice the Aspect, pop up to him and BOOM sliced in half with Lifecutter! :smallamused:

[Taelas]

I'm actually curious about Portfolio sense and Celerity, Nerull's Portfolio sense says he feels and senses the death and not what exactly lead to it until its about to happen (As to when he can remote sense it) meaning all he knows is that he is going to die and not how he is going to die.He doesn't know the spells you are preparing or what spells you are going to be casting against him all he knows is that he is going to die but he doesn't know how is going to kill him... I'm wondering if this changes the game.
He can sense it up to 17 weeks before it happens... He's got time to do research. He probably knows he'll die before you even decide to kill him.


No i mean interrupt in the sense that after you cast it your opponent cannot do anything until your action resolves.
No; you can perform immediate actions at any time (unless you're flat-footed or otherwise prevented from performing actions period; such as when you're dazed, or unconscious).


Little bit confused on this, elaborate if you may.

Using an immediate action works like this. It counts as your swift action for the round in which you use it, unless you have already used your swift action for that round or you use it when it is not your turn, in which case it counts as the swift action of your next round.

EDIT: That's actually not correct, but it doesn't matter in this context; as soon as they cast celerity, it's no longer your turn, so the second clause takes effect. It does mean you can't use a swift action then cast celerity while it's still your turn, though... gotta wait.

[Calanon]

He can sense it up to 17 weeks before it happens... He's got time to do research. He probably knows he'll die before you even decide to kill him.

...This actually makes me want to recommend the OP a paradox in his game...



EDIT: That's actually not correct, but it doesn't matter in this context; as soon as they cast celerity, it's no longer your turn, so the second clause takes effect. It does mean you can't use a swift action then cast celerity while it's still your turn, though... gotta wait.


Celerity

Transmutation
Level: Bard 4, Sorcerer 4, Wizard 4,
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 immediate action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions)
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
This spell works like lesser celerity, except that you pull even more time into the present.
When you cast this spell, you can immediately take a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions), as if you had readied an action.
You can even interrupt another creature's turn when you cast this spell.
However, after you take the standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions) granted by this spell, you are dazed until the end of your next turn.

It doesn't say anything about immediately ending the enemies turn :smallconfused: it simply says that you are allowed to perform a standard action (Casting a spell, Attacking, Anything that can be performed in a single standard action)

[Taelas]

turn: The point in the round at which you take your action(s). On your turn, you may perform one or more actions, as dictated by your current circumstances.

Since the person casting celerity is taking an action, it is their turn. Immediate actions normally do not pass the turn, as they happen instantaneously and take up no time, but standard actions most definitely do. Since celerity "interrupts" the turn at the point it is cast, when the standard action is over, the previous turn simply resumes, but the opposing caster has the possibility of casting celerity before that happens.

[Arcane_Secrets]

To the OP:
what level are you?

How much cheese are you willing to use? (say, are you okay with infinite-wishing yourself top level gear? Are you willing to go Pun Pun?)

Also, if Nerull can sense his own death 17 weeks in advance, then he just has to be defeated without killing him. Somehow keep him in a coma/restrained/etc. for 18 weeks, then kill him. Unless learning of his own death knocks Nerull out of a coma, it won't help at that point. Of course, not quite sure if this is possible to pull off.

Alternative is to gain sufficient power to utterly exterminate Nerull, then wait 18 weeks before starting off on your quest to actually do so.

A couple of points (probably more than a couple...) that may or may not help:

1) The Dicefreaks version of Nerull uses older rules. More recent rules allow a save for Life and Death/Mass Life and Death, and allow for issues like rank checks to use SDA's against other gods and cosmic entities. As a result, if your saves are high enough you can actually save against this (which is the good news).

The bad news is that he'll still know you're coming except for some of the points later and that if Nerull thinks there's a real risk of losing and he can't flee, he'll probably Life or Death you, or your relatives if he can sense them, once a round each round, and alternate that with epic dispelling your protective spells.

2) The idea of getting other divine assistance was a really good idea. If this is being done in Oerth, Rao seems like a strong candidate because he's good-aligned, has probably wanted to see something done about Nerull for a very long time, and has sufficient power as a greater god himself. Another candidate that might be more appropriate is Istus. As a goddess of fate, she might not be able to prevent Nerull from knowing about your impending attempt to kill him...but perhaps she could 'shunt' the knowledge's arrival to Nerull into some point in the future to buy you more time.

3) In terms of evil gods, Tharizdun is even worse and more menacing than Nerull. In fact, if I was running your campaign and I started with the assumption that Nerull wanted you alive, I would be tempted to use the plot that Nerull, as a being that loathed all living creatures and wanted to see life basically never happen, was actually allied with Tharizdun (who has come the closest to ending Oerth) and that Nerull is manipulating you as pawns to free Tharizdun, set you up as the patsies, and then reap all Oerth in the process.

That said, there are other options in terms of evil gods and entities. He occupies prime real estate at the bottom of Carceri and this has to be something that at least one or more factions of the yugoloths or daemons isn't all that happy about. Turning them against him might be another approach, or it could be used to basically clear a path to Nerull's realm since your odds of either planeshifting or teleporting right into it are probably pretty low.

4) Actually fighting Nerull means that you need, at a minimum, an epic equivalent of a death ward that will survive against constant or multiple dispelling so the negative levels massively used against you don't just reduce you to nothing outright. The Dicefreaks version also dishes out a ton of Vile damage so protection against that is also a good idea. Two options are either to use a transform seed epic spell to make yourself immune to it, or alternately (this is more complex) to try and 'surround' yourself with a consecrated region so that way you can be healed normally in the area.

[Taelas]

Life and Death doesn't allow a saving throw, at least not as per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath). Where are these "updated" rules?

[Calanon]

Since the person casting celerity is taking an action, it is their turn. Immediate actions normally do not pass the turn, as they happen instantaneously and take up no time, but standard actions most definitely do. Since celerity "interrupts" the turn at the point it is cast, when the standard action is over, the previous turn simply resumes, but the opposing caster has the possibility of casting celerity before that happens.

Then by that logic it is always my turn since I can take an immediate action whenever the hell I want... :smallconfused:

Your also ignoring the whole "Everything happens at the same time" rule...

So heres how it would fold out no matter how you look at it

Initiative is rolled out (the wizard loses or else this has no purpose)

Round 1: The Wizard uses Celerity as an immediate action to take a standard action to cast Superbacon mega sex death spell at the same time the enemy is casting/attacking/or whatever...

Just because you use an Immediate action doesn't mean your opponents turn automatically ends, every thing in a round happens all at the same time from the wizard casting his spell to a warrior charing at you swinging his sword.

Initiative does nothing more then tell each player what hits what first and in what order they are allowed to state their actions.

This is the reason why I stopped asking the playground how you kill a deity because eventually they devolve into discussions like this, where people start talking about what actions are possible by RAW.


MASSIVE RAGE INCOMING!

A couple of points (probably more than a couple...) that may or may not help:

Oh this should be good...


1) The Dicefreaks version of Nerull uses older rules. More recent rules allow a save for Life and Death/Mass Life and Death, and allow for issues like rank checks to use SDA's against other gods and cosmic entities. As a result, if your saves are high enough you can actually save against this (which is the good news).

The bad news is that he'll still know you're coming except for some of the points later and that if Nerull thinks there's a real risk of losing and he can't flee, he'll probably Life or Death you, or your relatives if he can sense them, once a round each round, and alternate that with epic dispelling your protective spells.

Interesting... because the Dicefreak version of Nerull uses the Dicefreak rules for Life and Death:



LIFE AND DEATH
The deity can kill a mortal creature almost anywhere. Likewise, the deity can bestow life upon any dead mortal being almost anywhere.
. . Prerequisites: Divine rank 6, Gift of Life or Hand of Death.
. . Benefit: The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life. The mortal is allowed a Fortitude saving throw to resist. Even if the save succeeds, the subject takes 1d8 damage per rank of the deity, which may kill it anyway.
. . Alternately, the deity can designate any dead mortal and restore it to life. Unwilling mortals may attempt a Will save against the same DC to resist resurrection.
. . The save DCs are Charisma-based.
. . Notes: This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a divine shield. However, the subject must be in a location the deity can sense, either within the deity’s sense range or in a location the deity can perceive through its remote sensing ability. If the deity cannot see the subject, the deity must unambiguously identify the subject in some fashion. If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component. The mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a deity using the Gift of Life or Life and Death ability, who must succeed on a rank check against the deity that slew the mortal.
. . If the deity restores life to a mortal, this ability works like the true resurrection spell, except that there is no material component and the amount of time the subject has been dead is irrelevant.
. . This ability cannot restore a creature to life against its will, but it can resurrect an elemental or outsider. It can resurrect a creature whose soul is trapped - if the soul is held by another deity or a cosmic entity, the deity must suceed on an opposed rank check to free it.
. . This ability can only restore life to a creature that has been slain by the Hand of Death, Life and Death, or Mass Life and Death ability if the deity succeeds on an opposed rank check against the deity that slew the creature.
. . Rest: After using either version of this ability, the deity must rest for 1 minute per level or Hit Die of the creature affected.
Deities whose portfolio includes life or death do not have to rest after using this ability.
. . Suggested Portfolio Elements: Death, life, supreme.

The idea that gods of death know when who they are going to be killed by has been debunked unfortunately...


2) The idea of getting other divine assistance was a really good idea. If this is being done in Oerth, Rao seems like a strong candidate because he's good-aligned, has probably wanted to see something done about Nerull for a very long time, and has sufficient power as a greater god himself. Another candidate that might be more appropriate is Istus. As a goddess of fate, she might not be able to prevent Nerull from knowing about your impending attempt to kill him...but perhaps she could 'shunt' the knowledge's arrival to Nerull into some point in the future to buy you more time.

OP already said he wants to fight him in a head to head fight... No idea why... but whatever... Getting Divine Assistance is the best idea that anyone has ever thought of... (on the last page...)


3) In terms of evil gods, Tharizdun is even worse and more menacing than Nerull. In fact, if I was running your campaign and I started with the assumption that Nerull wanted you alive, I would be tempted to use the plot that Nerull, as a being that loathed all living creatures and wanted to see life basically never happen, was actually allied with Tharizdun (who has come the closest to ending Oerth) and that Nerull is manipulating you as pawns to free Tharizdun, set you up as the patsies, and then reap all Oerth in the process.

That said, there are other options in terms of evil gods and entities. He occupies prime real estate at the bottom of Carceri and this has to be something that at least one or more factions of the yugoloths or daemons isn't all that happy about. Turning them against him might be another approach, or it could be used to basically clear a path to Nerull's realm since your odds of either planeshifting or teleporting right into it are probably pretty low.

Except ya know, Nerull helped seal Tharizdun... or so the legends say...
honestly if we are looking for enemies of Nerull we can pick Hieroneous, Pholtus, Rao, St. Cuthbert, Vecna (But he's everyones enemy), Mellifleur you know where this is going...


4) Actually fighting Nerull means that you need, at a minimum, an epic equivalent of a death ward that will survive against constant or multiple dispelling so the negative levels massively used against you don't just reduce you to nothing outright. The Dicefreaks version also dishes out a ton of Vile damage so protection against that is also a good idea. Two options are either to use a transform seed epic spell to make yourself immune to it, or alternately (this is more complex) to try and 'surround' yourself with a consecrated region so that way you can be healed normally in the area.

Why? the Ward Seed for Protection from Vile damage, and as for immunity to negative levels... well thats why we become a Lich or something...

[Adrayll]

Has OP specifically said to avoid Summon Bigger Fish scenarios, or do those just ride too heavily on DM fiat to be constructive?

[Taelas]

Then by that logic it is always my turn since I can take an immediate action whenever the hell I want... :smallconfused:
... you're ignoring the part where I said immediate actions normally do not pass the turn. Celerity is a special case: it is an immediate action that creates a standard action. It is not the immediate action that passes the turn, it is the standard action.

You can take an immediate action, but a) it costs you your next swift action, no matter what, b) you must have an immediate action you are capable of performing, and c) it still does not pass the turn.


Your also ignoring the whole "Everything happens at the same time" rule...
There is no such "rule"; that is not how the game functions. Turns are abstracted as taking place at the same time, yes, but they do not actually do that, because the game mechanics could not function in that manner. It is abstracted in the same manner that attacks, hit points, and armor class is.


So heres how it would fold out no matter how you look at it

Initiative is rolled out (the wizard loses or else this has no purpose)

Round 1: The Wizard uses Celerity as an immediate action to take a standard action to cast Superbacon mega sex death spell at the same time the enemy is casting/attacking/or whatever...

Just because you use an Immediate action doesn't mean your opponents turn automatically ends, every thing in a round happens all at the same time from the wizard casting his spell to a warrior charing at you swinging his sword.

Initiative does nothing more then tell each player what hits what first and in what order they are allowed to state their actions.

This is the reason why I stopped asking the playground how you kill a deity because eventually they devolve into discussions like this, where people start talking about what actions are possible by RAW.
The game doesn't function if you enforce 'everything happens at the same time'. The rules do not work that way.

The example you gave proves it beyond doubt.

Bob the Wizard and Fred the Fighter stand staring at one another. Bob the Wizard starts casting a spell at the same time as Fred the Fighter starts running towards him. If you simply assume that whoever wins initiative "hits first" and enforce everything else simultaneously, you are throwing half a dozen rules out the window.

For instance. Let's say Fred wins initiative. By the rules, when he is done charging, he is in melee range with Bob, and can, when Bob starts casting his spell, make an attack of opportunity to interrupt it. This is not possible when you force it to be simultaneous, as he hasn't reached Bob yet. Bob can also take a 5-foot step back from Fred at the beginning of his turn to avoid the attack of opportunity, but that makes no sense when his step back would simply cause Fred to take another step forward when he makes his charge--otherwise, Fred would never hit!

By the rules, everything happens according to the initiative order. It is abstracted away as happening mostly at the same time, but that would make no sense in the game mechanics.

[hamiltond465]

I question the paradox inherent in Nerull predicting his death.

A: he does not predict his own death, therefore you surprise him, but still lose.

B: he does not predict his own death via portfolio(because it doesn't work that way for some reason?), therefore you surprise him and it goes either way

C: He does predict his death. No matter how he struggles, he knows he will die on this day. In this case, it's all roleplaying. Maybe he knew far in advance when he would die, and is setting you up to replace him. (Why would your body be allowed to live otherwise?)

I suggest you make sure the DM is aware you're planning on eventually killing Nerull, and perhaps point him to this thread.
It would be unfortunate if the day of the fight comes and you disagree on how it goes down.

[Calanon]

... you're ignoring the part where I said immediate actions normally do not pass the turn. Celerity is a special case: it is an immediate action that creates a standard action. It is not the immediate action that passes the turn, it is the standard action.

You can take an immediate action, but a) it costs you your next swift action, no matter what, b) you must have an immediate action you are capable of performing, and c) it still does not pass the turn.


There is no such "rule"; that is not how the game functions. Turns are abstracted as taking place at the same time, yes, but they do not actually do that, because the game mechanics could not function in that manner. It is abstracted in the same manner that attacks, hit points, and armor class is.


The game doesn't function if you enforce 'everything happens at the same time'. The rules do not work that way.

The example you gave proves it beyond doubt.

Bob the Wizard and Fred the Fighter stand staring at one another. Bob the Wizard starts casting a spell at the same time as Fred the Fighter starts running towards him. If you simply assume that whoever wins initiative "hits first" and enforce everything else simultaneously, you are throwing half a dozen rules out the window.

For instance. Let's say Fred wins initiative. By the rules, when he is done charging, he is in melee range with Bob, and can, when Bob starts casting his spell, make an attack of opportunity to interrupt it. This is not possible when you force it to be simultaneous, as he hasn't reached Bob yet. Bob can also take a 5-foot step back from Fred at the beginning of his turn to avoid the attack of opportunity, but that makes no sense when his step back would simply cause Fred to take another step forward when he makes his charge--otherwise, Fred would never hit!

By the rules, everything happens according to the initiative order. It is abstracted away as happening mostly at the same time, but that would make no sense in the game mechanics.

Quite right... Now lets get back to the main subject at hand: How does OP defeat Nerull in combat.



I question the paradox inherent in Nerull predicting his death.

A: he does not predict his own death, therefore you surprise him, but still lose.

B: he does not predict his own death via portfolio(because it doesn't work that way for some reason?), therefore you surprise him and it goes either way

C: He does predict his death. No matter how he struggles, he knows he will die on this day. In this case, it's all roleplaying. Maybe he knew far in advance when he would die, and is setting you up to replace him. (Why would your body be allowed to live otherwise?)

I lol'd on how Nerull trying to prevent his own death creates a paradox... (It really does that why its funny)

[Taelas]

I question the paradox inherent in Nerull predicting his death.
Nerull can predict his own death because it is possible for him to die if he does nothing.

He can then choose to act to prevent it.

[Calanon]

Nerull can predict his own death because it is possible for him to die if he does nothing.

He can then choose to act to prevent it.

Yes and then a paradox is created because he was destined to die...

...NO WE ARE NOT GOING TO DISCUSS PARADOXES! I WOULD SOONER MAKE A VIDEO OF ME SINGING THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYZM__VdEjk) THEN GET INTO A CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW A TIME PARADOX RESOLVES... this thread has already given me a big enough headache as it is :smallsigh:

[Taelas]

That only happens if you assume the future is fixed and can't be changed. If you assume the opposite, there's no problem.

[hamiltond465]

I bet people would pay good money to see a demilich sing that.

I like these lyrics, how fitting. (http://youtu.be/wYZM__VdEjk?t=1m5s)

[Ravens_cry]

I bet people would pay good money to see a demilich sing that.

I like these lyrics, how fitting. (http://youtu.be/wYZM__VdEjk?t=1m5s)
Somehow, I knew that what was going to come up.

[Calanon]

That only happens if you assume the future is fixed and can't be changed. If you assume the opposite, there's no problem.

However you can't deny that Fate doesn't exist in D&D :smallamused:

[Taelas]

However you can't deny that Fate doesn't exist in D&D :smallamused:

... what? I'm not even sure what you're talking about, anymore.

I can most certainly argue that fate doesn't exist.

[Calanon]

... what? I'm not even sure what you're talking about, anymore.

I can most certainly argue that fate doesn't exist.

Seriously? Prove to me that Fate doesn't exist in Dungeons and Dragons I'm actually curious how you can argue this :smallconfused: While your at it prove to me that Magic doesn't exist in D&D

[hamiltond465]

You can prove neither that fate exists or does not exist. It is up to the DM, as is the outcome of a battle with the god of death.

and everyone knows that magic is just pysionics :smalltongue:

[Calanon]

You can prove neither that fate exists or does not exist. It is up to the DM, as is the outcome of a battle with the god of death.

Alright this is true but most DMs would believe in some level of fate (Its a lot more epic then just saying "These Random Tavern goers will save the world")


and everyone knows that magic is just pysionics :smalltongue:

https://i3.endoftheinter.net/i/n/68480d0b625e182312f4284c966071e9/1327561350987.gif Its Psionics btw...

:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

[hamiltond465]

That is the best gif I have seen in so long...

In all seriousness tho, play your character in a way that the DM will be able to throw you a plot hook.
become a magic user, talk to the people who might have some idea about how to go about godkilling(the fellows at the center of the outer plane, the secrecy god, find a way into Baccob's library, etc), capture a demigod and dissect it to try to find a weakness(bonus points if it's the other PC), max out knowledge religion and arcana.
there's always the option of killing every single being that worships nerull.

[Taelas]

Seriously? Prove to me that Fate doesn't exist in Dungeons and Dragons I'm actually curious how you can argue this :smallconfused: While your at it prove to me that Magic doesn't exist in D&D

... what, I don't even...

I can't prove a negative!

There is absolutely no evidence that 'Fate' exists in any form.

Magic is not Fate. Why would I attempt to prove that magic doesn't exist in D&D? That doesn't even begin to make any kind of sense!

[turkishproverb]

Get Bill Door to help. He'd do a much better job than Nerull any day.

....

*hugs*

[Talakeal]

... what, I don't even...

I can't prove a negative!

There is absolutely no evidence that 'Fate' exists in any form.

Magic is not Fate. Why would I attempt to prove that magic doesn't exist in D&D? That doesn't even begin to make any kind of sense!

What about the fate spinner PRC?

[Calanon]

... what, I don't even...

I can't prove a negative!

There is absolutely no evidence that 'Fate' exists in any form.

Magic is not Fate. Why would I attempt to prove that magic doesn't exist in D&D? That doesn't even begin to make any kind of sense!

...*rubs head* To prove that magic doesn't exist in D&D is an impossibility because its common knowledge (Even off these boards) that Magic is well incorporated into D&D... basically what I said was that its impossible to prove that fate doesn't exist in D&D when you have gods with the portfolio of "Prophecy", "Destiny", and most important "Fate" Hell there is even a fate spinner Prestige Class


there's always the option of killing every single being that worships nerull.

I'm not sure if Oerthian Deities are bound by the same rule as Faerunian deities... :smallconfused:

[hamiltond465]

I'm not sure if Oerthian Deities are bound by the same rule as Faerunian deities... :smallconfused:

My favorite form of religion is Discworld's style.
Where the heck is Oerth?

[Knaight]

...*rubs head* To prove that magic doesn't exist in D&D is an impossibility because its common knowledge (Even off these boards) that Magic is well incorporated into D&D... basically what I said was that its impossible to prove that fate doesn't exist in D&D when you have gods with the portfolio of "Prophecy", "Destiny", and most important "Fate" Hell there is even a fate spinner Prestige Class
You can't prove it doesn't exist anyways, as that would be proving a negative. It not existing is, however, the default assumption and the burden of proof is on those claiming it exists. In this case, the listed portfolios do so fairly well, but insisting that you will assume the existence until it has been conclusively disproved is absurd.

[Calanon]

You can't prove it doesn't exist anyways, as that would be proving a negative. It not existing is, however, the default assumption and the burden of proof is on those claiming it exists. In this case, the listed portfolios do so fairly well, but insisting that you will assume the existence until it has been conclusively disproved is absurd.

Oh god I just know this is going to head into a religious conversation :smallannoyed: so I'll just leave with this. You are adding real world ideals into a fantasy setting where gods perform divine acts as often as it rains (In some Pantheons the deities actually cause it to rain) the idea that fate doesn't exist in D&D is like being an Atheist in Faerun...

[Knaight]

Oh god I just know this is going to head into a religious conversation :smallannoyed: so I'll just leave with this. You are adding real world ideals into a fantasy setting where gods perform divine acts as often as it rains (In some Pantheons the deities actually cause it to rain) the idea that fate doesn't exist in D&D is like being an Atheist in Faerun...

This has nothing to do with a religious conversation, but with logic. Logically, you can't prove that there is no fate, and thus the position that needs data behind it is that there is. Said data is abundant (the domains and class you listed, some segments in the fluff, so on and so forth). It's the same with magic in D&D - you can't technically prove that it isn't at all there, so the claim that it is there needs proof. Said proof starts with about half of the PHB, half of the DMG, around 90% of the MM, and large proportions of almost every book - particularly the spell and magic item compendiums.

[zlefin]

joke answer: make a character so cool and/or funny that the DM decides to let him beat Nerull. Use of Chuck Norris and similar memes may help.

sideways answer: bribe the dm. and/or bribe the other players to take over DM position for a session.

otherwise: well, it really depends on what dm will let you get away with; like tier -1 builds;
otherwise epic magic could (assuming no rule 0).
other than that, it'd depend on just how many levels you get to work with; i'm sure quite a few builds could once you get a super high number of levels; but i don't know how many things could do it at a reasonable number of levels.

[Taelas]

basically what I said was that its impossible to prove that fate doesn't exist in D&D when you have gods with the portfolio of "Prophecy", "Destiny", and most important "Fate" Hell there is even a fate spinner Prestige Class

'Prophecy' does not require fate to exist in order to exist itself. Fate implies a fixed future, something that is impossible to change. Prophecy can be a possibility instead of a certainty. Even disregarding that, no god in the core D&D pantheon has 'prophecy' as part of their portfolio. The closest is Boccob, who has 'foresight', which is a different thing.

'Destiny' isn't a portfolio that I have ever encountered, in any pantheon.

As for gods with the portfolio of 'fate'... that only occurs in other cosmologies, such as the Olympian pantheon. There isn't a deity in the core D&D pantheon with that portfolio. There is nothing which comes even close, in fact.

[WhamBamSam]

there's always the option of killing every single being that worships nerull.Nerull's portfolio sense goes off 17 weeks before they die. Maybe if you mindraped everyone else in the universe so that they forget that Nerull exists and stop worshiping him (or possibly even start worshiping you instead). If a god's powers come from prayer, then Nerull should lose his divinity. His portfolio sense will get 404'd 17 weeks after this, so you just need to somehow keep him from gaining any new worshipers or learning of/killing you for 18 weeks before going in to enact a plan to actually kill him.

Or y'know, Pun-Pun.

[skycycle blues]

This has nothing to do with a religious conversation, but with logic. Logically, you can't prove that there is no fate, and thus the position that needs data behind it is that there is. Said data is abundant (the domains and class you listed, some segments in the fluff, so on and so forth). It's the same with magic in D&D - you can't technically prove that it isn't at all there, so the claim that it is there needs proof. Said proof starts with about half of the PHB, half of the DMG, around 90% of the MM, and large proportions of almost every book - particularly the spell and magic item compendiums.

You can logically prove a negative.

1) If X, then no Fate.
2) X.
C) Therefore, no Fate.

X would probably have to be something that would logically contradict the existence of Fate.

Call Ur-Priest if this seems suspect. I hear tell he's good with the logos.

[Balor01]

Gods are darn potent.
Gods see the future.

Ergo, there is no way to kill god because he will prevent this X days before this happens. This is in a way like lvl 20 batman knowing that another lvl 20 batman (Speculating our would-be Nerull killer is on par with Nerulls power) is coming to kill him A WEEK FROM NOW. Guess which one lives? (First one with full knowledge of actions or second one with no knowledge of actions) Also, as "moment X" approaches, god also sees how fight will go and pre-adjusts it untill he gets a favorable result and then just executes things so the enemy is defeated.

You can not kill Nerull. Nerull kills you.

[demigodus]

Gods are darn potent.
Gods see the future.

Ergo, there is no way to kill god because he will prevent this X days before this happens. This is in a way like lvl 20 batman knowing that another lvl 20 batman (Speculating our would-be Nerull killer is on par with Nerulls power) is coming to kill him A WEEK FROM NOW. Guess which one lives? (First one with full knowledge of actions or second one with no knowledge of actions) Also, as "moment X" approaches, god also sees how fight will go and pre-adjusts it untill he gets a favorable result and then just executes things so the enemy is defeated.

You can not kill Nerull. Nerull kills you.

As has been said before, the way to get around Nerull's foresight, is to not kill him. simply defeat him, and disable him, so you can hold him captive for a little over 17 weeks.

Nerull still has the advantage (since he is allowed to kill you), but at least his advantage isn't in the form of knowing the future.

[Talakeal]

You can not kill Nerull. Nerull kills you.

In Soviet Russia...

[Namfuak]

Technically the argument about whether fate exists in D&D comes down to an argument about determinism vs. indeterminism, or whether we are fated ourselves. Since D&D is progressed through certain random actions (dice rolls and DM/Player decisions), if the dice, DM, and player decisions are already determined, D&D has fate. If they are not, D&D cannot have fate. And that's all I have to say about that.

As for Nerull, it sounds like the OP needs a Macguffin.

[Venser]

If your DM knows what he is doing, then I am afraid that you will have only one round or so to take down a God.

As soon as alter reality starts kicking in, it is over.

Then again, you can always send a party of frenzied berserkers with epic weapons to fight a God :P

[Arros Winhadren]

Just to weigh in on the "Nerull predicts his own death", I'd say that it's entirely up to the DM as the SRD is a little vague on the subject:

Portfolio
Every deity of rank 1 or higher has at least limited knowledge and control over some aspect of mortal existence.

Note that the Portfolio specifies "mortal existence", which means that any events involving immortals is by RAW not within the Deity's portfolio. However, a mortal trying to seize the Deity's portfolio certainly sounds like it would affect at least that mortal's existence, and the effect would pertain to the portfolio they were trying to seize meaning that Nerull would know what you're up to. Even if you argue that the destruction of the current God of Death doesn't pertain to the Death portfolio (I don't understand why you'd argue that, but some have) I think you could reasonably argue that the creation of a NEW God of Death pertains to the portfolio (maybe the new god makes all dying creatures explode into confetti, changing cultural perceptions of death). So basically it's up in the air and entirely depends on what your DM says you can do (just like everything else in D&D).

The other thing I wanted to mention was Ice Assassin. People seem to assume that you can just choose a target and BAM, you have an evil clone. Unfortunately, you need a piece of the target (hair, skin, blood, etc.) for the spell to function. Which means that you would already have to be able to harm Nerull sufficiently to get a part of him OR find one lying around from when he was a mortal. Unlikely. The other option is to take Ignore Material Components; Eschew Materials would work but as the DM I'd rule that a piece of Nerull is worth much, much more than 1 gold piece. However, even with Ignore Material Components I'd say that it can't replace divine flesh. So again, up to your DM.

[Golden Ladybug]

We want to kill a God, do we? Okay, lets try this.

Step 0: Become an Elan, Warforged or a Lich and be functionally immortal in some other way.
Step 1: Become Immune to Int Damage. Doesn't really matter how, but you don't want to trust your success to a Percentile Dice chance of going into a coma.
Step 2: Cast Teleport Through Time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) and head back to prior to Nerull's Ascension. Go back to the beginning of existence if you choose, and just wait.
Step 3: Wait until Pre-Ascension Nerull is born.
Step 4: Kill Him now, while he is weak. The Greathammer will serve you well when he is just flesh and blood, and his divinity is just a distant possibility.
Step 4a: If killing Nerull is what causes him to ascend, prevent his death and Teleport Through Time with him to the end of the universe and deposit him there.
Step 5: Laugh as the resulting paradox ravages time and space. You've disrupted causality, but you have your revenge.

Alternatively, we do this indirectly and take him on at the height of his power. The biggest obstacle here is his Portfolio Sense, which tips him off regarding anything involving death, murder, darkness, or covert activity, so that just means we need to put our plan into motion without anyone dying, no sneakiness and everything happening in broad daylight. That's doable.

Time to trick the multiverse into worshipping you. In an obvious way, flamboyant in the middle of the day (Teleport Through Time to never, ever be anywhere at night time) that does not result in killing or causing anyone to die by your actions and start gathering worshippers. Use the Jumplomancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer_-_are_you_serious)to get everyone who you ever encounter to move up to Fanatic, and command them to worship you as there one and only god. Earn those Divine Ranks with your fabulous jumping! Its Gestalt, so spend the other side of your progression getting all the 9ths with Ur-Priest, Elven Domain Generalist, Psyhic Theurge and Psion. Just have all the things and be awesome.

Now that you are a Deity, its time to get even. By dint of Race or Template, you are immune to ageing, which gives you as much time as you need to gather the requisite Millions of Mortal Worshippers that you need for a Divine Rank in the ballpark of 16-20. Getting respect from other deities shouldn't be too hard, I don't think; trying to arrange events to kill a God of Death would require Cojones made of Adamantine. That is gonna earn you some street cred. Try to get your Portfolio to be Time Travel, since that is how you got all your power, and it is a useful thing to have prescience about. Use said Time Travel to make sure that your Divine Rank is 18 or higher.

Being as you are now a Greater Diety with natural access to 9ths from every source, you can face off against Nerull without fear of being instagibbed (since you can Alter Reality every buff ever, use and abuse Epic Spellcasting and hold your own in Divine Rank fights, not to mention your immortality, means that your safe from most of his auto-win buttons), and turn it from a match between a mere mortal against a God to two Gods having a scrap, with you possessing the higher Divine Rank. You can turn him off, and them beat him into paste with that Hammer of yours.

Then, take that Paste, and deposit it at the end of the universe. There is no better spot to dump bodies than the end of all existence.

[classy one]

All this argueing about portfilio sense is kind of pointless. The deities and demigods book states that he can sense any death 17 weeks in advance. If you went up against him he would simply sense your PC's death. Most likely due to a use of his life or death divine ability.


We want to kill a God, do we? Okay, lets try this.
.......
Step 2: Cast Teleport Through Time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) and head back to prior to Nerull's Ascension. Go back to the beginning of existence if you choose, and just wait.
Step 3: Wait until Pre-Ascension Nerull is born.

This is the main flaw with your plan, you assume he Nerull was once mortal rather than a god to begin with. While deities and demigods list this as a possibility canon puts far more support towards the divine spark theory. Divine spark states that you are a god because you were always a god. If you were once mortal and ascended, then that only means you had the spark since you were born.


Time to trick the multiverse into worshipping you.
.....

If that were true the Godsmen, a fraction in Sigil that believes as you do, would have had someone become a god already. This has not happened, and was explicitly stated in Harbringer House.

More evidence for the divine spark include:
1) the Lich queen of the githyanki has a whole race fanatics that willingly give there life force to her. Her plan to become a god isn't to get more fanatics (because that doesn't work) but to spam wishes (using the sacrificed high level githyanki) and steal the divine spark from a sleeping god. If the PCs fail to stop her she becomes a god.

2) Harbringer house had a psychopathic NPC that did have the divine spark and was being hidden by the Godsmen. Some Godsmen felt it would undermine their (and your) belief that worship was the key to ascension, while others wish to use him to prove that mortals could ascend (neglecting to tell others he had a divine spark).

There are other examples but the evidence from published material is pretty much proves the divine spark theory, not the "worship" theory.

The rest of your post hinges on this dirproven theory and hence not valid. The DM could of course throw out all the establishing literature and go your route, but by canon? No your method is a waste of time.

[classy one]

I'll say it again, the only way to really have a chance to defeat him, or any god really, is lure him into the innermost ring of Outlands. There he will lose all his divine powers, divine bonuses, spells, divine abilities, Su feats, and his magical items and artifact will be only masterwork items.

His stats are
Nerco 10/Cleric 20/Rogue 10
HP= 840
AC=77
STR: 25
DEX: 33
CON: 25
INT: 35
WIS: 40
CHA: 29
Granted you will have a hard time beating him without spells yourself but a gestalted combat focused build could have a decent shot at winning this fight. The hard part is to trick the god to go there as all gods know that is the only place in the whole multiverse where they are most vunerable.

[Golden Ladybug]

This is the main flaw with your plan, you assume he Nerull was once mortal rather than a god to begin with. While deities and demigods list this as a possibility canon puts far more support towards the divine spark theory. Divine spark states that you are a god because you were always a god. If you were once mortal and ascended, then that only means you had the spark since you were born.

Ah well, worth a try, I suppose. Still, Time Travel will almost always give you an answer to your problems, if you apply it correctly, and if Nerull was born Mortal, then you can just kill his ancestors before he was conceived. He might've been born a God, but that matters squat if he was never born at all. But, if this Divine Spark theory beats over that as well, then I suppose the Time Travel assassination thing will have to be put on hold.

In any case, you could probably head off back in time to ingratiate yourself with the various Pantheons as they spring into being. Say, if you were to provide Corellon Larethian information about Lolth's imminent turn to evil, you'd probably earn yourself some brownie points in the Elf Pantheon. Repeat as needed until you have favours coming from as many Greater Deities as you can think off, and then call 'em in to help out with your Deicide.


If that were true the Godsmen, a fraction in Sigil that believes as you do, would have had someone become a god already. This has not happened, and was explicitly stated in Harbringer House.

More evidence for the divine spark include:
1) the Lich queen of the githyanki has a whole race fanatics that willingly give there life force to her. Her plan to become a god isn't to get more fanatics (because that doesn't work) but to spam wishes (using the sacrificed high level githyanki) and steal the divine spark from a sleeping god. If the PCs fail to stop her she becomes a god.

2) Harbringer house had a psychopathic NPC that did have the divine spark and was being hidden by the Godsmen. Some Godsmen felt it would undermine their (and your) belief that worship was the key to ascension, while others wish to use him to prove that mortals could ascend (neglecting to tell others he had a divine spark).

There are other examples but the evidence from published material is pretty much proves the divine spark theory, not the "worship" theory.

The rest of your post hinges on this dirproven theory and hence not valid. The DM could of course throw out all the establishing literature and go your route, but by canon? No your method is a waste of time.

Fair enough, I don't own each and every piece of published material related to Gods in D&D, so I'm going in half-cocked to begin with. If you can't become a God by worship, then we don't use that plan.

But I challenge your opinion that having every living being fanatically devoted to you because of your absolutely amazing jumping skills is a waste of time :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

Eh, whether or not worshippers make you into a deity is one of those things where there's little enough written and most of it is rule of whatever plot we have going on right now that it's the same as any other "we left this completely up to the DM" kinds of questions.

[Talakeal]

In any case, you could probably head off back in time to ingratiate yourself with the various Pantheons as they spring into being. Say, if you were to provide Corellon Larethian information about Lolth's imminent turn to evil, you'd probably earn yourself some brownie points in the Elf Pantheon. Repeat as needed until you have favours coming from as many Greater Deities as you can think off, and then call 'em in to help out with your Deicide.
:

If it were that easy, wouldn't the god go back in time and warn themselves of future events?

[Coidzor]

If it were that easy, wouldn't the god go back in time and warn themselves of future events?

Once you've got time travel... who's to say they don't? *shudder*

[Glassteel]

Okay, I didn't want this to have to be my fall-back, and I didn't even want this to be necessary in a build, but my character is incapable of dying. A dying god's last "blessing" was that as long as there is a god of the fey, I can't die. I. CAN'T. Die. I figured this out, when in depression, my character attempted suicide by dropping out of the sky into hard packed earth. I stared at the ground and wondered why I was laying on it without injury. The DM has told me out of character how this works, in character, I only know that "the gods won't let me die, possibly as punishment for what I've done." Can't die to atone, so, revenge is the obvious course. Lack of being able to die takes away most of Nerull's auto-win abilities, but not all. His others I can get around with magic items.
So, back to topic, how do I build a character to kill Nerull? Straight up stats, don't worry too much about his portfolio sense and such, I can always beat him senseless, Trap the Soul on his helpless face, and kill him 17 weeks later, so he doesn't have time to see it in advance and prepare. My biggest problems will be how to protect myself from his spell casting, beat him down in just a couple of rounds (too fast for him to realize the threat), and keep him from just teleporting away (considering Purple Mist from Dungeonscape, if I can figure a way to create or summon it). What do you all recommend? I need to overcome his DR, SR, Fast Healing, and spell casting, without impacting my own. Divine Might full Cleric (with PRC's) up one side and some sort of arcane up the other? Tome of Battle? Link to someone who likes coming up with full builds? Thoughts or ideas?
We house-rule away the Exp penalty for multi-classing, if it's important. We've always considered it extra baggage making a fun game complicated. Favored class means nothing to us anymore. Also, my DM will let me get away with a LOT of crap and questionable stuff (tier 1 or -1 is actually what I'm wanting), tho Pun Pun, Candle of Invocation abuse and similar stuff where ANY DM should just say NO, is out. That said, any thoughts?

[Taelas]

Even if you can't die, you can't go up against a greater deity like Nerull and hope to win unless you are a greater deity yourself. Due to Alter Reality, he can have every buff ever up. Permanently.

Foresight means you can't get the jump on him. Supreme Initiative means you can't go first.

Also, I think you're making some assumptions here that might not be true. Even if you can't die to mortal means, who's to say a greater deity can't kill you--especially when his portfolio is death?

Of course, it all depends on what your DM lets you get away with. If he doesn't play the deity to its full extent, then all bets are off. But if he does...

Then I don't see a way to win. Not without Divine Ranks of your own.

[Glassteel]

DM flat out said that as long as there is a god of the fey, my character will simply stand back up again. Even effects like disintegrate can't kill me. DM specifically said I'm immune to death effects, anything that causes instant death, death by massive damage, and death by hit point damage. I just get back up. Also, using a divine salient ability means that a god has to take a rest afterward. Granted the DM said she is using a "rebuilt" Nerull, but only to explain some of the abilities he used during the campaign. I don't know what exactly to expect from the fight, but if she is sticking to rules, I shouldn't be in THAT much trouble. He is still limited in how many actions he can take, and if I can get high enough level, I can always Miracle myself immune to more of his abilities (since Miracle is in itself divine intervention, should work)

[Calanon]

Okay, I didn't want this to have to be my fall-back, and I didn't even want this to be necessary in a build, but my character is incapable of dying. A dying god's last "blessing" was that as long as there is a god of the fey, I can't die. I. CAN'T. Die. I figured this out, when in depression, my character attempted suicide by dropping out of the sky into hard packed earth. I stared at the ground and wondered why I was laying on it without injury. The DM has told me out of character how this works, in character, I only know that "the gods won't let me die, possibly as punishment for what I've done." Can't die to atone, so, revenge is the obvious course. Lack of being able to die takes away most of Nerull's auto-win abilities, but not all. His others I can get around with magic items.
So, back to topic, how do I build a character to kill Nerull? Straight up stats, don't worry too much about his portfolio sense and such, I can always beat him senseless, Trap the Soul on his helpless face, and kill him 17 weeks later, so he doesn't have time to see it in advance and prepare. My biggest problems will be how to protect myself from his spell casting, beat him down in just a couple of rounds (too fast for him to realize the threat), and keep him from just teleporting away (considering Purple Mist from Dungeonscape, if I can figure a way to create or summon it). What do you all recommend? I need to overcome his DR, SR, Fast Healing, and spell casting, without impacting my own. Divine Might full Cleric (with PRC's) up one side and some sort of arcane up the other? Tome of Battle? Link to someone who likes coming up with full builds? Thoughts or ideas?
We house-rule away the Exp penalty for multi-classing, if it's important. We've always considered it extra baggage making a fun game complicated. Favored class means nothing to us anymore. Also, my DM will let me get away with a LOT of crap and questionable stuff (tier 1 or -1 is actually what I'm wanting), tho Pun Pun, Candle of Invocation abuse and similar stuff where ANY DM should just say NO, is out. That said, any thoughts?

Would have saved us all like 3 pages of discussion to know this earlier. Nerull can spontaneously cast any Cleric Spell (Cleric/20 Necromancer/10 Rogue/10) unfortunately a lot of Cleric spells are buffs and debuffs (Not that he even needs them with permanent buffs to everything) Honestly if you can overcome his Damage reduction, Fast Healing, Teleportation, and all that sauce then you can whip him (Of course he has DR 52/Magic so yeah...) honestly if your going all Immortal on us then your going to completely stomp Nerulls... My recommendation? Get Diehard, you can keep going forever since you cannot die... unfortunately Nerull doesn't gain the same benefits (When his HP reaches -10 he goes back to his special plane... or you succeed a rank check... as to where this entire situation would be moot since that would mean you have a Divine Rank...)



Even if you can't die, you can't go up against a greater deity like Nerull and hope to win unless you are a greater deity yourself. Due to Alter Reality, he can have every buff ever up. Permanently.

That is indeed true


Foresight means you can't get the jump on him.

That is indeed true


Supreme Initiative means you can't go first.

Also true


Also, I think you're making some assumptions here that might not be true. Even if you can't die to mortal means, who's to say a greater deity can't kill you--especially when his portfolio is death?

The DM apparently... which pretty much amounts to an Overpower :smallbiggrin: I mean life and death doesn't work on an immortal (which he apparently is) since it specifies Mortal (Which he is not) of course Nerull can always pop into the realm (or try) of the Deity thats keeping him immortal and just snuff him out... or try... but I'm assuming that if its a Deity or Deities strong enough to prevent Nerull from killing him must either be a lot of Intermediates (or Lessers) or a Greater Deity... pretty awesome really...


Of course, it all depends on what your DM lets you get away with. If he doesn't play the deity to its full extent, then all bets are off. But if he does...

Eh, If the OP shows this thread to his DM I'm confident he'll be screwed beyond any of our help :smalleek:



Then I don't see a way to win. Not without Divine Ranks of your own.

Alas this is to true... without a Divine Rank it'll be a Pyrrhic victory at best... :smallfrown: Honestly? I can expect by the end of this game that you will be elevated to godhood taking Nerulls place as the God of Death (if you are actually able to kill him in any way shape or form...) :smallamused:


EDIT:


I can always Miracle myself immune to more of his abilities (since Miracle is in itself divine intervention, should work)

Go with Wish, its better :smallamused:

[donnerdrummel]

hey,

heres a thing that might help. Quite some time ago i was playing some campaign and basicly there was a dead god now alive again going around and killing other gods for their divine ranks with a word that kills - even gods. later we found out that this was the basic (and way more powerfull) version of the power word "xxxxx" spells.
theese words are some pretty obscure knowledge but after some epic questing for the regulators (epic lvl handbook p.244) Mella Theeg might be able to point you in the right direction.
just one or two story hooks, but heres the most important thing you need - your DM`s aproval and good will.
if you dont have that we can strongarm and RAW your ass of the hook and
whatever and it still will not work.

greetz rob

[hamiltond465]

Were I watching this movie, I would predict you replacing Nerull.
So far as I understand:

1: Nerull has killed you, stripped you of everything, and then brought you back, an action at goes directly against his base nature. (I think he wants everything everywhere dead right?)
Speaks strongly of ulterior motives
Why did he need to use your body to blast the world to ash? Why not just do it himself? fear of retribution?

2: you are now effectively immortal. this is, again, against everything Nerull stands for.

there are only 2 reasons that I can think of as to why he's doing this.

-You are to become a weapon for use in exterminating everything everywhere (you get to the epic level of power required to kill gods, and he takes you over again?)

-You are to kill him, for some reason. Prophecy probably.


in character, the two plans are:
-be an epic magic user, and trade nukes with him
-be an epic magic user, and capture>wait 20 weeks>kill
-be an epic nonmagical warrior and get him to come to the null zone of the outer plane.


I do feel like you need to find a maguffin for any of this though.
It will probably be less important that you are able to beat his numbers than it is that you are prepared for the encounter
Gives you something to do at pre-epic levels at any rate

[Madara]

Red Wizard Shadowcraft mage shenanigans

He saves and takes damage, automatic. He even takes more damage for saving. You get your DCs and Caster Level up so high for one insta-kill spell and you'll have no problem. On the other side, thrallherd.

[Yorrin]

Just because we haven't tossed out EVERY ridiculous trick in the book here's a couple more...

Option 1: Cancer Mage could give you an arbitrarily high Str score. Just wait till it's high enough to kill him in a single hit with that nice hammer of yours (3 years at most with no real optimization) and then go with your "beat him senseless and soul trap him" plan.

Option 2: Tainted Scholar can give you an arbitrarily high primary casting stat. Pick any given damage spell that has uncapped damage, metamagic it to bypass his various immunities, and go to town. This has the added bonus, with enough metamagic, of potentially working from outside his divine senses.

[kardar233]

hey,

heres a thing that might help. Quite some time ago i was playing some campaign and basicly there was a dead god now alive again going around and killing other gods for their divine ranks with a word that kills - even gods. later we found out that this was the basic (and way more powerfull) version of the power word "xxxxx" spells.
theese words are some pretty obscure knowledge but after some epic questing for the regulators (epic lvl handbook p.244) Mella Theeg might be able to point you in the right direction.
just one or two story hooks, but heres the most important thing you need - your DM`s aproval and good will.
if you dont have that we can strongarm and RAW your ass of the hook and
whatever and it still will not work.

greetz rob

That would be Orcus, dead, coming back as Tenebrous, finding the Last Word and using it to kill gods. The Last Word will do the kill, but the problem is getting around the 17-week advance warning. Try teaming up with Vecna for Vecna-Blooded?

[Calanon]

That would be Orcus, dead, coming back as Tenebrous, finding the Last Word and using it to kill gods. The Last Word will do the kill, but the problem is getting around the 17-week advance warning. Try teaming up with Vecna for Vecna-Blooded?

1) Unfortunately Orcus or "Tenebrous" destroyed all records of the newly named "Orcusword". Indeed Knowledge of the Orcusword makes you a threat to every single power in the universe (Yes, Including the DM and by connection Ao) but ...I'm not sure if luckily is the best way to put it, Orcus is the only person in all of creation to know it.

2) This would actually be right up Vecna's Alley way :smallamused: I'm confident you can also get other Divine creatures to back you up on the hostile take over of a deities domains including but not limited to: Asmodeus (Most if not all the Lords of the Nine would be willing to help actually if you can get Asmodeus in on this), Vecna, Orcus, Heironeous, honestly any deity in the cosmos would work really... Nerull isn't very well liked... Of course the odds of YOU surviving this encounter is very well slim to none... and even if you do whats keeping these other Divine Juggernauts from leaping in and kill stealing you? (And then promptly killing you) I think such an alliance would pretty much be the entire death of all of creation :smalleek: making this an impossiblity...

[The Mentalist]

I think such an alliance would pretty much be the entire death of all of creation :smalleek: making this an impossiblity...

You say impossiblity... I say TOTALLY HAPPENING!

Mass god carnage... American Gods flashback.

[SowZ]

Alternate plan. Kill everyone who worships Nerull and mind wipe everyone else to forget about his existence. Then, when you are the only being in the universe who knows who Nerull is, give yourself amnesia. Without any belief to sustain him, Nerull will not be a problem.

Depending on how the gods work in your DMs setting, but power based on belief/worhsip/sacrifice is the most common one I've run into. Gaiman has already been mentioned so I feel no need to go there.

[kardar233]

Alternate plan. Kill everyone who worships Nerull and mind wipe everyone else to forget about his existence. Then, when you are the only being in the universe who knows who Nerull is, give yourself amnesia. Without any belief to sustain him, Nerull will not be a problem.

Depending on how the gods work in your DMs setting, but power based on belief/worhsip/sacrifice is the most common one I've run into. Gaiman has already been mentioned so I feel no need to go there.

This has actually been done in FR (Kiaransalee is killed by an Epic spell that rewrites everybody's memories to forget her), but as you're in Greyhawk (I'm assuming, as Nerull is a Greyhawk deity) it might not wash.

[Calanon]

Alternate plan. Kill everyone who worships Nerull and mind wipe everyone else to forget about his existence. Then, when you are the only being in the universe who knows who Nerull is, give yourself amnesia. Without any belief to sustain him, Nerull will not be a problem.

Depending on how the gods work in your DMs setting, but power based on belief/worhsip/sacrifice is the most common one I've run into. Gaiman has already been mentioned so I feel no need to go there.

This actually happened... ONCE! and it was Elven High Magic (Like Netherese Archwizardry except ya know, not as good) ... Elven High magic exploits Ritual factors meaning if you have enough casters giving enough spells you can kill gods... (Where as with Netherese Archwizardry you can just "do it yourself" ask yourself, which is better? I believe the answer will be obvious...)

But imo Elven High Magic is complete crap (Full ritual that kills a god... and kills the caster and everyone else giving up a spell slot, in effect almost killing an entire people just to kill one creature) ... but in all fairness I am an obviously bias source favoring Netherese Archwizardry :smalltongue:

On a side note: in some settings Kiaransalee is still alive, however in most she is either killed by Orcus, Hides in the Demon Web from Orcus, Killed by Epic Magic, OR alive and well doing her own thing... in most of them she is killed however...

[Wavelab]

This actually happened... ONCE! and it was Elven High Magic (Like Netherese Archwizardry except ya know, not as good) ... Elven High magic exploits Ritual factors meaning if you have enough casters giving enough spells you can kill gods... (Where as with Netherese Archwizardry you can just "do it yourself" ask yourself, which is better? I believe the answer will be obvious...)

But imo Elven High Magic is complete crap (Full ritual that kills a god... and kills the caster and everyone else giving up a spell slot, in effect almost killing an entire people just to kill one creature) ... but in all fairness I am an obviously bias source favoring Netherese Archwizardry :smalltongue:

On a side note: in some settings Kiaransalee is still alive, however in most she is either killed by Orcus, Hides in the Demon Web from Orcus, Killed by Epic Magic, OR alive and well doing her own thing... in most of them she is killed however...

High elven mages tend to focus more on benefitting the elven community while netherese mages focus on how it benefits them. I prefer the latter.

[Calanon]

High elven mages tend to focus more on benefitting the elven community while netherese mages focus on how it benefits them. I prefer the latter.

"Isn't that how magic is SUPPOSED to be? Magic was given by the gods to serve man not to be treated as some sort of "sacred treasure" Magic is limitless, it is all around us, we should not concern ourselves with a limitless resource "running out". As long as we are able to pluck spells from the weave as a druid plucks berries from shrubs we shall be fine..."
-The Netherese Council of Mages

In all fairness they actually had it right... and then a man named "Karsus" had to burn the shrub :smallannoyed:

Anywho! Epic Magic is certainly your best bet for taking down a god... ask your DM the dimensions (Miles in diameter) of your planet and then we start with the Energy Seed [Weather effect] :smallamused: I have an idea! how about we make it rain all over the planet except the rain makes everyone forget some stuff... specifically that Nerull exist! :smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Tippy]

How to kill a greater deity with Alter Reality and without using Pun-Pun or Ice Assassin Divine Rank shenanigans.

Do not even think of attacking him until after everything else in the following plan has been done. Attacking a god is going to trigger his portfolio sense. That gives him advance warning, and you will not succeed if the god has advance warning.

Becoming utterly immortal and unkillable:

Step 1: Have the Epic feat Ignore Material Components.
Step 2: Create an Ice Assassin of a Mind Flayer Psion (telepath) with a level greater than your own and physical ability scores in the 70s or so.
Step 3: Order the Ice Assassin to True Mind Switch with you.
Step 4: Kill your Ice Assassin.
Step 5: Gain 10 levels in the Illithid Savant prestige class.
Step 8: Create an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of yourself.
Step 9: Order it to shapechange into a form with a brain.
Step 10: Consume it's brain and gain the Ex ability Singular Enemy.
Step 11: Create an Ice Assassin of an Aleax Mind Flayer Psion (Telepath) of a level higher than your own with true mind switch and whatever physical abilities you want.
Step 12: Order it to True Mind Switch with you.

Congratulations, you now currently have two copies of the Singular Enemy ability each with a different singular enemy (one of which is yourself). This means that nothing in the multiverse can harm you in any way.

---
Now it's time to get you a whole host of abilities and qualities. This basically means using the Ice Assassin trick to produce brains of yourself to consume to multiply your abilities and brains of other creatures and characters so that you get every ability that is even remotely useful in the entire game. Once you have done that it's time to make use of Epic Casting.

What you do is create an Origin of the Species spell (using Ice Assassins to mitigate the DC down) with every epic ability as an Ex that you can conceive of (multiple separate creatures so that the DC doesn't get too insane) that are utterly loyal to you and then consume their brains to gain those abilities.

Now, you should consume the brain of a Vecna Blooded creature every day so that you acquire an updated the Cloak of Mysteries (Su) ability; the ability only hides all knowledge of you up to the time you gain the ability so you need to keep getting a new copy to keep your plans and actions mostly hidden. It still doesn't keep you safe from Portfolio sense but it does make you safer.

Now, one of the Origin of the Species creations of yours should have an Ex ability based on an epic spell with a free action casting time that uses the Contact and Transport seeds (along with hideously boosted saving throw requirements) to locate anyone or anything that you are familiar with and then transport them to any location that you are familiar with (make sure that it is capable of extraplanar transport and does not use the Astral plane).

Another spell choice should be a Ward spell that excludes all spells of up to say level 10 with a radius of a hundred miles or so.

The last epic spell choice you need to include is an area of effect dispel based on the Dispel seed with a radius around you of 100 miles when activated. Make sure that the CL check is boosted to an absurd level and that this is also an Ex ability for your target creature.

Then travel to within a hundred miles of the Spire in the Outlands. Spend the next 20 weeks there. Use your Ex Ward ability to shut down magic in the area. Use your Ex Dispel ability to suppress magic items until you turn it off. Use your Ex teleport ability to rip Nerull to your location, this strips him of all his divine abilities, blocks the casting of all other spells/powers, and shuts down all of his magic items including artifacts.

Now you beat him to death, or use another Epic Ex ability to kill him. This shouldn't be difficult considering that you have had 20 weeks to prepare the battlefield, have every ability in the game, and can't be harmed.

Congratulations, you killed an overdeity. Granted, the above plan will allow you to kill anything short of the Lady of Pain and it utterly abuses the Illithid Savant but it is RAW legal, doesn't require DM adjudication, and works.

[Myth]

I hereby state and confirm, that Tippy is a bad enough dude to kill Nerull.

[Chess435]

*stuff*

:eek:


I think you just won D&D...

[The Mentalist]

I hereby state and confirm, that Tippy is a bad enough dude to kill Nerull.


Seconded... And the motion carries!


As usual, Tippy wins the thread.

[Calanon]

How to kill a greater deity with Alter Reality and without using Pun-Pun or Ice Assassin Divine Rank shenanigans.

Do not even think of attacking him until after everything else in the following plan has been done. Attacking a god is going to trigger his portfolio sense. That gives him advance warning, and you will not succeed if the god has advance warning.

Becoming utterly immortal and unkillable:

Step 1: Have the Epic feat Ignore Material Components.
Step 2: Create an Ice Assassin of a Mind Flayer Psion (telepath) with a level greater than your own and physical ability scores in the 70s or so.
Step 3: Order the Ice Assassin to True Mind Switch with you.
Step 4: Kill your Ice Assassin.
Step 5: Gain 10 levels in the Illithid Savant prestige class.
Step 8: Create an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of yourself.
Step 9: Order it to shapechange into a form with a brain.
Step 10: Consume it's brain and gain the Ex ability Singular Enemy.
Step 11: Create an Ice Assassin of an Aleax Mind Flayer Psion (Telepath) of a level higher than your own with true mind switch and whatever physical abilities you want.
Step 12: Order it to True Mind Switch with you.

Congratulations, you now currently have two copies of the Singular Enemy ability each with a different singular enemy (one of which is yourself). This means that nothing in the multiverse can harm you in any way.

---
Now it's time to get you a whole host of abilities and qualities. This basically means using the Ice Assassin trick to produce brains of yourself to consume to multiply your abilities and brains of other creatures and characters so that you get every ability that is even remotely useful in the entire game. Once you have done that it's time to make use of Epic Casting.

What you do is create an Origin of the Species spell (using Ice Assassins to mitigate the DC down) with every epic ability as an Ex that you can conceive of (multiple separate creatures so that the DC doesn't get too insane) that are utterly loyal to you and then consume their brains to gain those abilities.

Now, you should consume the brain of a Vecna Blooded creature every day so that you acquire an updated the Cloak of Mysteries (Su) ability; the ability only hides all knowledge of you up to the time you gain the ability so you need to keep getting a new copy to keep your plans and actions mostly hidden. It still doesn't keep you safe from Portfolio sense but it does make you safer.

Now, one of the Origin of the Species creations of yours should have an Ex ability based on an epic spell with a free action casting time that uses the Contact and Transport seeds (along with hideously boosted saving throw requirements) to locate anyone or anything that you are familiar with and then transport them to any location that you are familiar with (make sure that it is capable of extraplanar transport and does not use the Astral plane).

Another spell choice should be a Ward spell that excludes all spells of up to say level 10 with a radius of a hundred miles or so.

The last epic spell choice you need to include is an area of effect dispel based on the Dispel seed with a radius around you of 100 miles when activated. Make sure that the CL check is boosted to an absurd level and that this is also an Ex ability for your target creature.

Then travel to within a hundred miles of the Spire in the Outlands. Spend the next 20 weeks there. Use your Ex Ward ability to shut down magic in the area. Use your Ex Dispel ability to suppress magic items until you turn it off. Use your Ex teleport ability to rip Nerull to your location, this strips him of all his divine abilities, blocks the casting of all other spells/powers, and shuts down all of his magic items including artifacts.

Now you beat him to death, or use another Epic Ex ability to kill him. This shouldn't be difficult considering that you have had 20 weeks to prepare the battlefield, have every ability in the game, and can't be harmed.

Congratulations, you killed an overdeity. Granted, the above plan will allow you to kill anything short of the Lady of Pain and it utterly abuses the Illithid Savant but it is RAW legal, doesn't require DM adjudication, and works.

Wow... just... wow... My... wow... :smalleek: ...

[The Mentalist]

Wow... just... wow... My... wow... :smalleek: ...


BEHOLD THE GLORY THAT IS LORD TIPPY!

FEAR! TREMBLE! BOW IN AWE BEFORE HIM!


Seriously though, Tippy is very much responsible for my approach to fantasy gaming. Medieval stasis is for WOTC. (i.e. losers)

[Calanon]

BEHOLD THE GLORY THAT IS LORD TIPPY!

FEAR! TREMBLE! BOW IN AWE BEFORE HIM!


Seriously though, Tippy is very much responsible for my approach to fantasy gaming. Medieval stasis is for WOTC. (i.e. losers)

I've heard of the Tippsyverse but I never knew it was so... Wow... Tell me more...

[The Mentalist]

I've heard of the Tippsyverse but I never knew it was so... Wow... Tell me more...

The information you requested has been sent. Please allow 3-5 seconds for delivery.

[Calanon]

The information you requested has been sent. Please allow 3-5 seconds for delivery.

Hmm... I'm tempted to create a Pantheon in the Playground... currently featuring Flabort and Tippy... weird...

[The Mentalist]

Hmm... I'm tempted to create a Pantheon in the Playground... currently featuring Flabort and Tippy... weird...


The Demented One, Krimm Blackleaf, Vorpal Tribble, and bhu should also be in there depending on your tastes.

Pharoh's Fist is of course our version of Asomdeus, cast from the forums.

[Calanon]

The Demented One, Krimm Blackleaf, Vorpal Tribble, and bhu should also be in there depending on your tastes.

Pharoh's Fist is of course our version of Asomdeus, cast from the forums.

I see... Lets continue this conversation in PM :smallamused:

The Cult of the Playground... (Name pending) sounds like it will be quite... Optimized...

[Aharon]

Step 1: Have the Epic feat Ignore Material Components.
Step 2: Create an Ice Assassin of a Mind Flayer Psion (telepath) with a level greater than your own and physical ability scores in the 70s or so.


AFB, what's the exact text of Ice Assassin? I think this does require DM adjudication, since you can only copy existing creatures. Find a printed book with above Mind Flayer, and it's a-ok. If it doesn't exist, it's in the realm of "This flayer only exists because the DM said so."

Granted, it's likely such a mind flayer exists, given the infinity of the planes, but stuff can be infinite without containing everything (real numbers are infinite, but don't contain imaginary numbers).

[The Mentalist]

Granted, it's likely such a mind flayer exists, given the infinity of the planes, but stuff can be infinite without containing everything (real numbers are infinite, but don't contain imaginary numbers).

On the other hand here you can argue that anything that CAN exist in an infinite reality MUST eventually exist considering the nature of infinite possibility.

It's not a matter of real or imaginary numbers here; it's a matter of "rare genetically pre-disposed albino ape from another universe that we know exists we just don't know where".

[Aharon]

On the other hand here you can argue that anything that CAN exist in an infinite reality MUST eventually exist considering the nature of infinite possibility.

It's not a matter of real or imaginary numbers here; it's a matter of "rare genetically pre-disposed albino ape from another universe that we know exists we just don't know where".

Which is why I'm interested in the actual Ice Assassin text... it might make matters clearer.

And we're getting philosophical here... If you have no knowledge of the actual existence of something, and never got any definite information about its existence, is it sufficient to assume it exists because of the infinity of the planes?

After all, within the infinite number of planes, planes exist that are themselve infinite, but they don't contain the other planes, so they are infinite despite not containing everything imaginable.

[The Mentalist]

Which is why I'm interested in the actual Ice Assassin text... it might make matters clearer.

And we're getting philosophical here... If you have no knowledge of the actual existence of something, and never got any definite information about its existence, is it sufficient to assume it exists because of the infinity of the planes?

After all, within the infinite number of planes, planes exist that are themselve infinite, but they don't contain the other planes, so they are infinite despite not containing everything imaginable.

I would concede the argument on "You have no idea that such a thing is possible." but such a thing can and does exist in any D&D multiverse

(I'll look for the text for Ice Assassin for you)

[Aharon]

I'm not AFB anymore. The text just says "near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature".

I still would prefer printed creatures, because there's too much variance if anything that can be made by the rules exist. For example, gods using their powers logically, instead of what their stat blocks say, would be ridiculously hard to defeat. Even the lowly Imhotep, one of the weakest printed gods, has prismatic sphere at will, and should be surrounded by 1100 overlapping ones at any time, if played to full potential.

[Emperor Tippy]

AFB, what's the exact text of Ice Assassin? I think this does require DM adjudication, since you can only copy existing creatures. Find a printed book with above Mind Flayer, and it's a-ok. If it doesn't exist, it's in the realm of "This flayer only exists because the DM said so."

Granted, it's likely such a mind flayer exists, given the infinity of the planes, but stuff can be infinite without containing everything (real numbers are infinite, but don't contain imaginary numbers).
Near perfect duplicate of an existing creature and you must supply a part of it's body as a material component. But Ignore Material Components let's you get around that and simply pick and choose what you want as it exists somewhere.

[Emperor Tippy]

I still would prefer printed creatures, because there's too much variance if anything that can be made by the rules exist. For example, gods using their powers logically, instead of what their stat blocks say, would be ridiculously hard to defeat. Even the lowly Imhotep, one of the weakest printed gods, has prismatic sphere at will, and should be surrounded by 1100 overlapping ones at any time, if played to full potential.

I was using a god that used all his abilities to the max, or at least pretty much to the max. That is why I found ways to bypass them all. The Spire to strip divine abilities, the ward to stop spell casting, the dispel to stop items, and the ex teleport to get them there. At that point it becomes a fight between your Ex abilities, and you should win with an Ex epic kill things spell.

[Taelas]

You do realize that Nerull knows every time you kill an Ice Assassin, right?

Considering just how many you kill before you even start to threaten him, I wouldn't call it a 'success' in any way, as it assumes a complete lack of response on Nerull's part.

[Aharon]

I was using a god that used all his abilities to the max, or at least pretty much to the max. That is why I found ways to bypass them all. The Spire to strip divine abilities, the ward to stop spell casting, the dispel to stop items, and the ex teleport to get them there. At that point it becomes a fight between your Ex abilities, and you should win with an Ex epic kill things spell.

Sorry, I didn't read your whole post before, I stopped at the point up to which I quoted.

To follow your reasoning, I did. You use epic casting. Now, it's true that the SRD doesn't say so, but the Epic Level Handbook has DM approval as a specific step in the creation of Epic Spells:

Approval: This is the final step, and it's critically important. You must show your epic spell development work and reasoning to your DM and get his approval. If you [sic] DM doesn't approve, then the epic spell cannot be developed.[...]

So your plan does, RAW, require DM approval.

@Skar Lakol
Mindrape yourself so you think you have another reason. He knows somebody is killing Ice Assassins, but not for what purpose :smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Tippy]

You do realize that Nerull knows every time you kill an Ice Assassin, right?

Considering just how many you kill before you even start to threaten him, I wouldn't call it a 'success' in any way, as it assumes a complete lack of response on Nerull's part.
...why in the world would a god respond to killing monsters? Do you think they respond to the tens of thousands of monsters you kill in your adventuring career?

@Aharon
Technically epic spells require DM permission but everyone I used requires no adhoc bonuses or modifiers, they are all creations lifted straight from the rules.

And technically you need DM permission to level.

[Aharon]

...why in the world would a god respond to killing monsters? Do you think they respond to the tens of thousands of monsters you kill in your adventuring career?

@Aharon
Technically epic spells require DM permission but everyone I used requires no adhoc bonuses or modifiers, they are all creations lifted straight from the rules.

And technically you need DM permission to level.

Even if it were just a technicality (which it shouldn't be, seeing how epic spells are as horribly broken as item creation without DM intervention), technicalities can't be glossed over in TO.

[Taelas]

...why in the world would a god respond to killing monsters? Do you think they respond to the tens of thousands of monsters you kill in your adventuring career?
"Huh, someone's killing off Ice Assassins of incredibly powerful monsters. I wonder if they're gonna try and pull a goofy immortality-trick. I'd better pop in and check. Oh, he is! Can't have that." *zap*

Also, nothing you posted is limited to PCs; if you can do it, the deity can do it too.

[Emperor Tippy]

"Huh, someone's killing off Ice Assassins of incredibly powerful monsters. I wonder if they're gonna try and pull a goofy immortality-trick. I'd better pop in and check. Oh, he is! Can't have that." *zap*
Actually, you know. Killing Ice Assassins wouldn't trigger portfolio sense. They are constructs that lack souls.


Also, nothing you posted is limited to PCs; if you can do it, the deity can do it too.
Actually no, you can't true mind switch with a deity. Deity's are immune to mind affecting things with no way to lower that immunity, that means they can only get Singular Enemy from themselves. They also can't get arbitrarily high ability scores.

And the deity would have to take levels in Illithid Savant.

To be able to do that would require a good bit of shenanigans on the deities part but is doable.

[Taelas]

That doesn't fly, sorry. Portfolio mentions nothing about souls, only death. Since an Ice Assassin is a "living, breathing creature", Nerull knows when they die--seventeen weeks before it actually happens.

Said immunities do not apply against deities with equal or higher divine rank. Find a deity that fits the criteria with equal divine rank and make an ice assassin of them, and it works, just as it does for your example.

[Emperor Tippy]

That doesn't fly, sorry. Portfolio mentions nothing about souls, only death. Since an Ice Assassin is a "living, breathing creature", Nerull knows when they die--seventeen weeks before it actually happens.
Even if that was the case, which I don't agree with for multiple reasons; it doesn't matter. All the deity knows is that an Ice Assassin died. Nothing more.


Said immunities do not apply against deities with equal or higher divine rank. Find a deity that fits the criteria with equal divine rank and make an ice assassin of them, and it works, just as it does for your example.
And then the PC does the exact same thing to pick up 21 divine ranks using the Ice Assassin proxy trick and it becomes a fight between over-deities.

[Taelas]

Even if that was the case, which I don't agree with for multiple reasons; it doesn't matter. All the deity knows is that an Ice Assassin died. Nothing more.
You don't agree with a literal reading of the rules? Color me astounded.

He doesn't need to know more than the fact that an ice assassin died. Ice assassins are ludicrous, and as he knows about it with his 112 Spellcraft check, he knows the dangers it represents. He knows the rough location and the exact time it'll happen, so he checks it out. Doesn't have to be in person; he can Remote Sense it. If that doesn't work, it's another warning bell; time to send in an avatar instead. If that avatar gets killed, well, then the gloves come off.

Of course, assuming you don't make your intentions clear, he won't know you're gunning for him specifically. Too bad that it doesn't really matter. Anyone attempting to achieve superdeityhood is a clear and present danger. Hell, he might as well call in a couple other greater deities; they'll likely react in much the same way.


And then the PC does the exact same thing to pick up 21 divine ranks using the Ice Assassin proxy trick and it becomes a fight between over-deities.
Too bad the deity's got a solid head start, what with already being a deity.

[Calanon]

That doesn't fly, sorry. Portfolio mentions nothing about souls, only death. Since an Ice Assassin is a "living, breathing creature", Nerull knows when they die--seventeen weeks before it actually happens.


Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected.

I guess that answers the question of "Does this unit have a soul?" :smalltongue:

[Taelas]

Nothing in the description makes it a construct. It is a "living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature". I am quoting exact text from the spell; it's in Frostburn, on pages 97-98.

Whether it has a soul is irrelevant. It is alive, thus it can die, thus it triggers Nerull's portfolio sense.

[Metahuman1]

May-haps that is a character that should be run, in a different game, under a different Dm, with a different group who have had what your going for explained too them ahead of time and why your going for it.


That way you can get just a bit of cheating and kill the crap out of the death god, since I'm fairly certain the DM and other player arn't gonna want to humor you on this. Which indecently stinks cause that was not cool on your part.

[Calanon]

Nothing in the description makes it a construct. It is a "living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature". I am quoting exact text from the spell; it's in Frostburn, on pages 97-98.

Whether it has a soul is irrelevant. It is alive, thus it can die, thus it triggers Nerull's portfolio sense.

...ugh... you didn't get the reference in the slightest... :smallannoyed:

Anywho! Nerull would automatically be aware that an Ice Assassin just died... actually to be fair he would automatically be aware that a creature just died (and not specifically an Ice Assassin). The Vagueness of the text of Portfolio sense is mostly most people argue about on the topic, If portfolio sense tells the deity every single little detail then Portfolio sense is unstoppable if Portfolio sense simply tells you that something pertaining to your portfolio just happened and nothing more, then its pretty much a blank text message popping up every 6 seconds.



Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event.Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

The bolded text is the one that seems to be problematic here... The deity is receiving no other detail besides the fact that it actually happened in fact Nerull would not be aware of: The Parties involved, the location, why it happened, or who was involved. the text is SO vague in its detail as to what the deity in question would learn. For Example: Zeus' portfolio sense would alert him to everything that happens under the sky. Is he aware of everything that happens in a cave since it is technically under the sky? What if you drown under the sea? is he alerted that someone just died under the sea, which is under the sky?

tl;dr The text detailing portfolio sense is stupid...

[Taelas]

...ugh... you didn't get the reference in the slightest... :smallannoyed:

You were referencing Mass Effect. I got it.

I don't know why you were attempting to tie that reference unto this conversation, however, since there aren't any robots in sight, and I just pointed out ice assassins aren't constructs.

[Calanon]

You were referencing Mass Effect. I got it.

I don't know why you were attempting to tie that reference unto this conversation, however, since there aren't any robots in sight, and I just pointed out ice assassins aren't constructs.

Ugh... still not getting it :smallannoyed: The reference was indeed a Mass Effect reference but it was also a snip at how people commonly misconceive not only Ice Assassins as Constructs but also Simulacrums. just because I can! My computer is technically a robot :smalltongue:

Anyway! this argument is entirely pointless, Tippy created a method to kill a god that is by raw legal and the your arguing if Nerull would know or care that an Ice Assassin just died. Has Nerull ever appeared before you because you just killed one goblin and leveled up since the way you describe him he is the most paranoid deity in the multiverse since Vecna :smallannoyed: Idk about you but most games would be fairly short if every time you tried to gain any power Nerull dropped out of nowhere and killed you for "Trying to usurp his power over death" :smallannoyed:

[Taelas]

...

Nerull's the god of death. His entire being consists basically of watching people die.

No, he doesn't show up whenever you kill a goblin, but he knows it happened.

He's a smart guy. As soon as Tippy's tactics are validated, he becomes paranoid as all hell, because, get this: he will know about those tactics. His Spellcraft skill ensures he knows about any spell ever. Ice assassin isn't even that obscure; it's a 9th level spell, but that's it.

So, whenever he feels an ice assasin die (especially an ice assassin of an incredibly powerful monster), he takes precautions as appropriate.

[Emperor Tippy]

...

Nerull's the god of death. His entire being consists basically of watching people die.

No, he doesn't show up whenever you kill a goblin, but he knows it happened.

He's a smart guy. As soon as Tippy's tactics are validated, he becomes paranoid as all hell, because, get this: he will know about those tactics. His Spellcraft skill ensures he knows about any spell ever. Ice assassin isn't even that obscure; it's a 9th level spell, but that's it.

So, whenever he feels an ice assasin die (especially an ice assassin of an incredibly powerful monster), he takes precautions as appropriate.
Carry out the entire plan at the base of the Spire, he learns nothing thanks to Divine Abilities not functioning in that area.

Even assuming your permissive reading of portfolio sense, you could still get around it.

[Taelas]

I'd have to read up on the Spire on how it works, so I'll just take your word for it.

[Aharon]

Carry out the entire plan at the base of the Spire, he learns nothing thanks to Divine Abilities not functioning in that area.

Even assuming your permissive reading of portfolio sense, you could still get around it.

Too bad nothing else works, either :smallbiggrin:
Still possible, but you'll burn through quite a lot of Rings of Free Casting.

BTW, can I assume that you conceed the point that the technicality I raised matters, since this is TO? You didn't adress it anymore.

[Emperor Tippy]

Too bad nothing else works, either :smallbiggrin:
Still possible, but you'll burn through quite a lot of Rings of Free Casting.
Rings of Free Casting? No idea what those are, source and page? Assuming that it has to do with XP, getting around the XP cost is trivial; my preferred method is a thought bottle.


BTW, can I assume that you conceed the point that the technicality I raised matters, since this is TO? You didn't adress it anymore.
Not really. Standard in TO involving Epic Magic is to accept anything that requires no ad hoc alterations, so long as an Epic spell uses only the published abilities of the Seeds and modifiers it qualifies in TO that allows epic magic.

[Aharon]

Rings of Free Casting? No idea what those are, source and page? Assuming that it has to do with XP, getting around the XP cost is trivial; my preferred method is a thought bottle.


Not really. Standard in TO involving Epic Magic is to accept anything that requires no ad hoc alterations, so long as an Epic spell uses only the published abilities of the Seeds and modifiers it qualifies in TO that allows epic magic.

@Rings of Free Casting
Planar Handbook, no idea which page, allow casting in areas of limited/impeded magic, 50 charges, 1 charge/spell level, item costs 45.000 gp.

Assuming WBL and no item creation abuse, that gets costly. Assuming gloves of item creation and optimisation, it doesn't, of course.

How were you planning to cast your Ice Assassins without it?

@epic spells
I was not aware of that. Little TO I know uses epic casting, because it's so easy to abuse its not even fun. Can you point out an example, please?

@Optimized gods
Persistent Timeless Body to prevent your (ex) teleport?

[Calanon]

@Rings of Free magic
Planar Handbook, no idea which page, allow casting in areas of limited/impeded magic, 50 charges, 1 charge/spell level, item costs 45.000 gp.

page 80 of the Planar Handbook. 1 Charge per spell level. Does impeded magic mean that the ring functions on a dead magic plane? :smallconfused:

[Aharon]

page 80 of the Planar Handbook. 1 Charge per spell level. Does impeded magic mean that the ring functions on a dead magic plane? :smallconfused:

I don't think so. impeded, limited and dead are keywords designating planar traits wrt magic: SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#magicTraits)

The ring only mentions impeded and limited, not dead, in its description.

[Emperor Tippy]

You can get free items using Wish abuse, and you can cast wish XP free thanks to Illithid Savant.

Leaving that aside, I was just using Craft Contingent Ice Assassins. Limited Magic doesn't stop the use of magic items and Craft Contingent has the spell precast, it just comes into effect when the contingency activates.

Rings of Free Magic would be less rules iffy, so just grab a few hundred or a few thousand.

[Taelas]

Look, all this TO is fine for what it is, but it probably isn't helping the OP any. Very few people allow blanket wish-abuse or thought bottle-abuse.

[Emperor Tippy]

Look, all this TO is fine for what it is, but it probably isn't helping the OP any. Very few people allow blanket wish-abuse or thought bottle-abuse.

The OP asked how to kill a greater deity. You aren't going to kill any greater deity by the rules without utterly mangling them. If you biggest beef is with wish abuse or XP mitigation abuse then you clearly missed the point. This is a build that is abusing Illithid Savant (the single most flat out powerful class in the entire history of D&D, no joke) for all it's worth and one of the first steps in the process was becoming truly and utterly unkillable. The only way to die with dual Singular Enemy abilities with different enemies is to use Backlash Mitigation on an epic spell, as that specifically bypasses any and all immunities.

[Taelas]

It isn't that my greatest beef is with those things; it's more like the straw that broke the camel's back. (Also, I have a long-standing hatred of wish-abuse.)

[Aharon]

Limited Magic doesn't stop the use of magic items and Craft Contingent has the spell precast, it just comes into effect when the contingency activates.

It doesn't come to effect, I think.


Limited Magic: These planes only permit spells and spell-like abilities from certain schools, subschools, descriptors, or levels to be cast. Other spells and spell-like abilities simply don't work; for them, this plane functions like a dead magic plane.(bolded part omitted in SRD)


These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.

Antimagic Field doesn't care wether the effect was created by a caster or an item, so if the item has a spell effect that belongs to the impeded spells, it doesn't work.

It doesn't matter, since Ring of Free Magic works, as doe Invoke Magic and Initiate of Mystra (if you rule that it works in areas that function the same way a dead magic zone does). You were a bit sloppy, though :smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

It doesn't come to effect, I think.

Antimagic Field doesn't care wether the effect was created by a caster or an item, so if the item has a spell effect that belongs to the impeded spells, it doesn't work.

It doesn't matter, since Ring of Free Magic works, as doe Invoke Magic and Initiate of Mystra (if you rule that it works in areas that function the same way a dead magic zone does). You were a bit sloppy, though :smalltongue:
*shrug*
I still say you are fine to do all the prep work anywhere you like, say on your private demiplane, and the god won't notice. If you need to be absolutely sure that the god doesn't notice though then you do it at the Spire, and use one of several methods to get around the no casting restriction.

[Aharon]

Oh, and since you seem to have missed those (happens...)

@epic spells
I was not aware of their usual application in TO. Can you point out an example, please?

@Optimized gods
Persistent Timeless Body to prevent your (ex) teleport?

[Emperor Tippy]

Oh, and since you seem to have missed those (happens...)

@epic spells
I was not aware of their usual application in TO. Can you point out an example, please?
I don't feel like finding a thread, it's just the general convention (although Epic spellcasting rarely comes up in TO discussions).


@Optimized gods
Persistent Timeless Body to prevent your (ex) teleport?
Technically doesn't work. Alter Reality can only make spells permanent, it says nothing about making powers permanent.

[Aharon]

I don't feel like finding a thread, it's just the general convention (although Epic spellcasting rarely comes up in TO discussions).


Technically doesn't work. Alter Reality can only make spells permanent, it says nothing about making powers permanent.

@Thread
Fair enough

@Timeless Body
Psionic-Magic Transparency?

@Ice Assassin of Aleax
This isn't as easy as you make it out to be. The following is hidden in the section normally reserved to fluff, but contains rules information:


An aleax does not exist until it is called into being by a deity.
The deity imbues the aleax with a fragment of his or her consciousness
before sending it to the location of its intended
victim. [...]A deity may have only one aleax at any given
time, and an aleax cannot be sent after more
than one creature. A deity cannot send a new
aleax to exact vengeance against a character who
has killed the deity’s aleax once before.

So even assuming you manage to enrage a god sufficiently to send an aleax to you, you have to win a mirror match and afterwards cast for 8 hours. But once again, we're firmly in DM adjudication territory, because he decides wether an aleax of you currently exists or not (unless you want to argue that, given infinite planes, there must be infinite gods, thus one enraged at you, thus one aleax - this can easily be countered with infinite gods, thus a still infinite subset enraged at you, thus infinite aleaxes).

[Emperor Tippy]

@Timeless Body
Psionic-Magic Transparency?
Is often drastically overstated.




Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.
Psi/Magic Transparency has 4 effects by RAW; it let's dispel work both ways, it let's detect magic/psionics work both ways, it causes dead magic/psionic areas to be the same, and it makes spell and power resistance the same. That's all.

[Glassteel]

DM has confirmed that she is using Dicefreaks version of Nerull with a couple little fluff abilities added on. Also, if portfolio sense only alerts Nerull that death will occur, is occuring, has occured, and that is all (no specific info unless he remote views), doesn't that mean that he ISN'T actually aware of his own impending demise, preventing him the time he needs to buff in advance (assuming the DM doesn't just take all the best buff spells and make them permanent on him via Alter Reality, even if she does tho, Disjunction or some similar ability will negate them, Planar Shepard's bubble still cancels them since they're Divine Powers). Probably going with a Druid/Planar Shepard up one side of the Gestalt, with Shapechange abuse at high levels for free wishes, True Creation, and maybe more. Any other suggestions? I've also told the DM I might be setting my goals a little lower. Beating Nerull into helplessness and casting Stasis on him sounds fun, but I may just pound on him a little, rescue the Damsel in Mind Control, and GTHO of Dodge...Thoughts? I'd still like to kill him, but I'm not seeing anything here that encourages my ability to do so...

[Emperor Tippy]

DM has confirmed that she is using Dicefreaks version of Nerull with a couple little fluff abilities added on. Also, if portfolio sense only alerts Nerull that death will occur, is occuring, has occured, and that is all (no specific info unless he remote views), doesn't that mean that he ISN'T actually aware of his own impending demise, preventing him the time he needs to buff in advance (assuming the DM doesn't just take all the best buff spells and make them permanent on him via Alter Reality, even if she does tho, Disjunction or some similar ability will negate them, Planar Shepard's bubble still cancels them since they're Divine Powers). Probably going with a Druid/Planar Shepard up one side of the Gestalt, with Shapechange abuse at high levels for free wishes, True Creation, and maybe more. Any other suggestions? I've also told the DM I might be setting my goals a little lower. Beating Nerull into helplessness and casting Stasis on him sounds fun, but I may just pound on him a little, rescue the Damsel in Mind Control, and GTHO of Dodge...Thoughts? I'd still like to kill him, but I'm not seeing anything here that encourages my ability to do so...

I told you how to kill him. Planar Shepard won't work as Druids are Divine Casters and emulating the Spire would shut down Planar Bubble as it is an Su ability; the Limited Magic trait would also do that. Nerull will also be immune to Disjunction.

[Glassteel]

Except that Planar Shepherds are immune to the negative side effects of their own bubble and can make others immune to it as well. Negating my own spell casting and SU's sounds a lot like a negative side effect...

[Emperor Tippy]

Except that Planar Shepherds are immune to the negative side effects of their own bubble and can make others immune to it as well. Negating my own spell casting and SU's sounds a lot like a negative side effect...

Read the Planar Shepard more closely, the last sentence of Planar Attunement to be precise; this ability does not apply to gravity, time, alignment, and magic traits.

[Vendle]

Epic magic solves everything.
Here's a quick version of Soul Dominion that lets you possess Nerull, because turnabout is fair play.


Possess Nerull

Divination - Enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]
Spellcraft DC: 140
Casting time: 1 action
Components: none
Range: see text
Target: One creature
Duration: 20 hours
Save: Increase DC by 40, Will negates
SR: yes, +50 to caster level to overcome SR
----
Development:
1,260,000gp, 26 days; 50,400xp.
Seeds: Contact (23), Compel (19), Reveal (19), Ward (14),
Transform (21)
Compel unreasonable action (possession): DC +10
Reduce casting time to 1 action: DC +20
No verbal component: DC +2
No somatic component: DC +2
Increase saving throw DC by 40: DC +80
Nullify Spells that prevent possession 1-10 (+20)
Apply to all five senses, (+8)
Burn 20,000XP, (-200)
Stricter action control (ad hoc +11)
Overcome natural immunity to mind control (+10)
Bonus to Overcome Spell Resistance +50 (+100)
------
Caster must have at least 22HD. This spell allows you to possess and completely control one creature, ignoring immunity to mind control and nearly all wards against possession. If the Will save fails, the character is able to control the subject’s body as if it were his or her own, hearing, seeing, feeling, smelling, and tasting everything the target senses. If the target is compelled to perform an action it is diametrically opposed to, it can attempt a save to refuse that particular action.


Good points: You only need familiarity with the subject; having him formerly possessing you makes that a given.
You don't even have to be on the same plane, so 17-19 miles is no issue.
No death inherently involved in the spell, but his Portfolio Sense will probably be triggered because I would totally be abusing his powers on his own followers.

Overcoming immunity to mind control had to be extrapolated from the Transform seed, because it's the only seed that overcomes immunities that I could find.

[Taelas]

Uh, no, that doesn't work. The Transform seed overcomes incorporeal and gaseous' creatures natural immunity to transformation; it says nothing about deities' divine immunities. (Yes, deities are also immune to transformation.)

There's no way to get around a deity's immunity to mind-affecting effects without being a deity of equal or higher divine rank.

[Glassteel]

Epic Spellcasting, however, DOES solve quite a few problems. An immunity spell for say, Golem Immunities, would let me ignore most of his abilities, magic, etc, I just need a way to get around having a Constitution score temporarily without giving up my stats (Shapechange could lower my stats and render VERY important magic items unusable). His Dust to Dust (again, Dicefreaks version) could pose a problem, since it specifically ignores immunities. I could craft a destruction seed spell to temporarily wipe away HIS immunities (but turn-a-play is fair play, so I have to be careful). A creation seed spell could allow me to conjure Purple Mist from Dungeonscape quite easily, a wonderful hazard that prevents ALL extradimensional travel (teleportation, planar travel, dimension door, etc) within its area and it isn't blown away by wind. A perfect "Lock-Down" to keep him in melee range, but I still need to deal with his magic and divine abilities

[Varil]

If portfolio sense doesn't work near the Spire, and the problem is killing Ice Assassins, couldn't you just create them on any given plane, then send them to the spire with orders to commit suicide? Or just go with them and kill them, then come back using some shenanigans, since I'm sure coming back is somewhere in the shenanigans list.

[Kittenwolf]

Depending on the specifics of his Portfolio Sense, you could always wander into Sigil (where even Greater Deities cannot meddle) and start researching an Epic Spell that (Familicide-style) just nukes every worshiper of Nerull, after which he should only be a Minor deity and thus within striking distance :)

[Calanon]

Epic magic solves everything.
Here's a quick version of Soul Dominion that lets you possess Nerull, because turnabout is fair play.


Possess Nerull

Divination - Enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]
Spellcraft DC: 140
Casting time: 1 action
Components: none
Range: see text
Target: One creature
Duration: 20 hours
Save: Increase DC by 40, Will negates
SR: yes, +50 to caster level to overcome SR
----
Development:
1,260,000gp, 26 days; 50,400xp.
Seeds: Contact (23), Compel (19), Reveal (19), Ward (14),
Transform (21)
Compel unreasonable action (possession): DC +10
Reduce casting time to 1 action: DC +20
No verbal component: DC +2
No somatic component: DC +2
Increase saving throw DC by 40: DC +80
Nullify Spells that prevent possession 1-10 (+20)
Apply to all five senses, (+8)
Burn 20,000XP, (-200)
Stricter action control (ad hoc +11)
Overcome natural immunity to mind control (+10)
Bonus to Overcome Spell Resistance +50 (+100)
------
Caster must have at least 22HD. This spell allows you to possess and completely control one creature, ignoring immunity to mind control and nearly all wards against possession. If the Will save fails, the character is able to control the subject’s body as if it were his or her own, hearing, seeing, feeling, smelling, and tasting everything the target senses. If the target is compelled to perform an action it is diametrically opposed to, it can attempt a save to refuse that particular action.


Good points: You only need familiarity with the subject; having him formerly possessing you makes that a given.
You don't even have to be on the same plane, so 17-19 miles is no issue.
No death inherently involved in the spell, but his Portfolio Sense will probably be triggered because I would totally be abusing his powers on his own followers.

Overcoming immunity to mind control had to be extrapolated from the Transform seed, because it's the only seed that overcomes immunities that I could find.


Thats not how epic magic works... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0)
Gods are naturally immune to all Mind affectings effects... like the entire Enchantment school (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#mindAffectingEffects)

Damn, atleast my spell was possible by killing him with raw damage that he is not immune to... :smallconfused:

[Alleran]

There's no way to get around a deity's immunity to mind-affecting effects without being a deity of equal or higher divine rank.
Could you hit them with a Necrotic Cyst and follow through with a Necrotic Tumour? Just hope that you can get Nerull to fail his saving throw. The spells are in LM. The first creates a cyst inside the body of the target, and the second is basically like a permanent dominate spell that, among other things, isn't a mind-affecting effect. Nor does a Protection from Evil or similar spell prevent the target from following your commands.

The only problem is first getting the cyst to form (assuming you can break past Nerull's saves somehow, and I think he receives an auto-20 on all his rolls?), since you'd have to shut down any protection from evil or similar spell first (if it's already in place beforehand, then it will block the cyst).

[Taelas]

Deities are immune to "attacks that alter its form", so it wouldn't work. You can't form the necrotic cyst, and even if you could, you couldn't change it afterwards.

[Rubik]

<snip> Becoming utterly immortal and unkillable: </snip>I don't quite see the logic of having two aleaxes in either case, since there's a mind flayer out there somewhere capable of killing you (or possibly your other aleax, depending, and if that's so your other aleax can kill you).

There're also two other ways to do this, without becoming an illithid:

1. Find a Big Bloody RockTM.
2. Use Polymorph Any Object on the rock to turn it into some mighty-but-inoffensive creature, such as a humpback whale. Or maybe something really nasty, such as a templated 12-headed hydra or an elemental weird (and yes, elementals are living creatures, as they have Con scores -- just create its pool in a safe spot, such as on your Genesis'd plane, then astrally project out when you want to be out and about).
3. Dominate the rock-whale (or whatever it is).
4. Use Metamorphosis, Expansion, or some other effect to turn into something of the same size and type as the rock-whale (likely another whale).
5. Manifest Fusion to merge with the rock-whale.
6. Dismiss the Metamorphosis effect, thereby becoming a strange rock-whale hybrid (of your size category, unless you want to be naturally Gargantuan sized).
7. Create an ice assassin of an aleax of yourself in your new Fused hybrid-rock-whale body. (Use Eschew Materials if need be.)
8. Command it to use Shapechange to turn itself into something not immune to mind-affecting effects suitable for use with (True) Mind Switch and command it to lower its SR and fail the next saving throw against any and all powers you manifest against it.
9. Manifest (True) Mind Switch on it.
10. Dismiss or Dispel the Fusion effect on your old half-rock-whale body.
11. Dismiss or Dispel the PAO effect on the rock-whale.
12. Disintegrate the whale-rock. Or for a slightly more paranoid approach (and why not?) use Stone to Mud and Purify Food and Drink, then scatter the water between deep space, the elemental plane of water, the elemental plane of fire, the negative energy plane, and the nearest city's water supply, along with Disintegrating the leftover dirt. For bonus points use Prestidigitation to clean it into oblivion.

Alternately you can just find a critter, Fuse with it, then Disintegrate your old Fused body after you're done, but then there's a chance (however insignificant) of it being Raised and then Fused. Or you could use Metamorphic Transfer after you've turned into a barghest AND DEVOURED ITS SOUL.

OR you can just use a Wish to grant yourself the aleax template, a la Savage Species, specifying that you're your own target. So long as you have enough Spellcraft ranks to get a roll of 40+ without fail you get all the abilities with no chance of error. Since you're under your absolute control you could order yourself to not have the compulsion to kill yourself and you should be fine.

Voila!

Now you'll be utterly indestructible, since the only creature capable of hurting you does not exist and will never exist again (though since YOU are technically still the target for the aleax, you might be able to harm yourself; don't do that). It isn't technically dead either, so you don't evaporate into the ether, or whatever. (I didn't see any specification as to what happens when the aleax's target is killed.)

[Rubik]

On the other hand here you can argue that anything that CAN exist in an infinite reality MUST eventually exist considering the nature of infinite possibility. It's The Great Wheel's Rule 34.

[kardar233]

I don't quite see the logic of having two aleaxes in either case, since there's a mind flayer out there somewhere capable of killing you (or possibly your other aleax, depending, and if that's so your other aleax can kill you).

No, the point is of having two copies of Singular Enemy each keyed to a different creature. Thus, unless you can be two things at once well enough to fool Singular Enemy, you can't hurt the guy.

[Rubik]

No, the point is of having two copies of Singular Enemy each keyed to a different creature. Thus, unless you can be two things at once well enough to fool Singular Enemy, you can't hurt the guy.I'm almost certain that only makes him vulnerable to two creatures, rather than making him mutually invulnerable to both.


Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.

With two singular enemies it should read: "only its intended victims can harm it."

[Alleran]

Deities are immune to "attacks that alter its form", so it wouldn't work. You can't form the necrotic cyst, and even if you could, you couldn't change it afterwards.
The spell that forms the cyst is Necromancy, not Transmutation. Yes, the fluff text of the spell says that it causes the target to develop a cyst, but it's not an attack per se.

[Venser]

As a godslayer,I might help here.
People here keep telling u the wrong things.You do not need all those things to kill Nerull.Whatever you build,Nerull is always in his prime and he will kill you.He can be defeated, but it is more likely that you will die first.
In order to kill a god in DND one must cripple him badly before going after him. This can be done by gathering an army of followers and destroying Nerulls temples.Gos in DND need temples and worshipers to remain alive and strong.Take that away from him and I promise you, he will die, or he willvat least be severly weakened, enough for your party to deal the final killing blow.This is the easiest way to kill a God,it only takes a lot of time.

[Aharon]

@Thread
Fair enough

@Timeless Body
Psionic-Magic Transparency?

@Ice Assassin of Aleax
This isn't as easy as you make it out to be. The following is hidden in the section normally reserved to fluff, but contains rules information:



So even assuming you manage to enrage a god sufficiently to send an aleax to you, you have to win a mirror match and afterwards cast for 8 hours. But once again, we're firmly in DM adjudication territory, because he decides wether an aleax of you currently exists or not (unless you want to argue that, given infinite planes, there must be infinite gods, thus one enraged at you, thus one aleax - this can easily be countered with infinite gods, thus a still infinite subset enraged at you, thus infinite aleaxes).

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, the whole aleax thing doesn't work anyway.

[Myth]

As a godslayer,I might help here.
People here keep telling u the wrong things.You do not need all those things to kill Nerull.Whatever you build,Nerull is always in his prime and he will kill you.He can be defeated, but it is more likely that you will die first.
In order to kill a god in DND one must cripple him badly before going after him. This can be done by gathering an army of followers and destroying Nerulls temples.Gos in DND need temples and worshipers to remain alive and strong.Take that away from him and I promise you, he will die, or he willvat least be severly weakened, enough for your party to deal the final killing blow.This is the easiest way to kill a God,it only takes a lot of time.

Yeah, I mean It's a piece of cake to kill cults with high-level Celrics and resources far outreaching that of your standard party. You know, Clerics that can Raise/True Resurrect one another, for whom gold is not an object, and who can, after you destroy the first temple, band together, Commune with Nerull and smear your sorry hides.

Or you know, if you ever got to a point where you even slightly threaten the cult, Nerull himself will send an Avatar or come down, and turn you all to finger paint. He will also use Salient Life and Death and return all his killed subjects to life. Because he can.

[Rubik]

Or you know, if you ever got to a point where you even slightly threaten the cult, Nerull himself will send an Avatar or come down, and turn you all to finger paint. He will also use Salient Life and Death and return all his killed subjects to life. Because he can.Really, the only way to do this is to kill them all nigh instantaneously. This makes it a bit problematic, given that he'll get wind of it due to the whole 'death' thing. So maybe do something else, like flesh to stone/rock to mud/purify food and drink on a mass scale. Ignores immunities, SR, and saving throws.

We're talking epic magic.

[Calanon]

Yeah, I mean It's a piece of cake to kill cults with high-level Celrics and resources far outreaching that of your standard party. You know, Clerics that can Raise/True Resurrect one another, for whom gold is not an object, and who can, after you destroy the first temple, band together, Commune with Nerull and smear your sorry hides.

...Alright where you got that idea I'll never know... Not all Religions are as united as you'd believe they are and the Church of the Reaper is no different they have a limit in funds... and No, after the first temple the ENTIRE religion would not be aware that someone is attacking them... Maybe a bunch of Clerics on a pilgrimage would survive and alert the temple... of course the possibility of a TPK is possible to prevent this :smallamused:

Anywho! Assuming worst case scenario is why the 1st level Rogue always loses to the 1st level Wizard so chill on those kinds of ideas :smallsigh:


Or you know, if you ever got to a point where you even slightly threaten the church, Nerull himself will send an Avatar or come down, and turn you all to finger paint.

Or ya know, Nerull could be smeared out of existence because Oerthian Deities aren't allowed to interact with the Material world unless for 2 reasons:

1) They currently have an Artifact of theres in the Material plane (and as such there Divine Power is being focused into the Artifact)

2) Its there Native plane and its the only place they can be destroyed (This is the case with Vecna)

There is plenty of (fictional) historical documentation of Mortals ******* around with Deities. How did Vecna become a God? WELL! He decided to force the Old Faith to begin worshiping him... How did he force them to? He started Executing there Clerics until they started to venerate him as a god... YEAH DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME EITHER :smallbiggrin:


He will also use Salient Life and Death and return all his killed subjects to life. Because he can.

Yeah sure lets spit on the entire religions philosophies to make sure it can survive... By letting themselves be resurrected they are breaking there codes of conducts...

Of course Oerth does not have the whole rule where your divine power is proportional to the amount of worshipers you have... You need a Divine Spark... so just killing Nerulls worshipers won't have much of an effect on him as a deity... might piss him off though...

Anywho... Anyone know if they ever made 3.5 Greyhawk books? :smalltongue:



Really, the only way to do this is to kill them all nigh instantaneously. This makes it a bit problematic, given that he'll get wind of it due to the whole 'death' thing. So maybe do something else, like flesh to stone/rock to mud/purify food and drink on a mass scale. Ignores immunities, SR, and saving throws.

We're talking epic magic.

I believe someone already bought up how Epic Magic can kill a deity, unfortunately Nerull is Oerthian and thus not bound by Ao's laws where his Divine Rank is relative to his amount of Worshipers so vaporizing all of Nerulls worshipers will just piss him off... or not... Since they will all be dead and would make Nerull a happy shinigami :smalltongue:

[Venser]

...Alright where you got that idea I'll never know... Not all Religions are as united as you'd believe they are and the Church of the Reaper is no different they have a limit in funds... and No, after the first temple the ENTIRE religion would not be aware that someone is attacking them... Maybe a bunch of Clerics on a pilgrimage would survive and alert the temple... of course the possibility of a TPK is possible to prevent this :smallamused:

Anywho! Assuming worst case scenario is why the 1st level Rogue always loses to the 1st level Wizard so chill on those kinds of ideas :smallsigh:



Or ya know, Nerull could be smeared out of existence because Oerthian Deities aren't allowed to interact with the Material world unless for 2 reasons:

1) They currently have an Artifact of theres in the Material plane (and as such there Divine Power is being focused into the Artifact)

2) Its there Native plane and its the only place they can be destroyed (This is the case with Vecna)

There is plenty of (fictional) historical documentation of Mortals ******* around with Deities. How did Vecna become a God? WELL! He decided to force the Old Faith to begin worshiping him... How did he force them to? He started Executing there Clerics until they started to venerate him as a god... YEAH DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME EITHER :smallbiggrin:



Yeah sure lets spit on the entire religions philosophies to make sure it can survive... By letting themselves be resurrected they are breaking there codes of conducts...

Of course Oerth does not have the whole rule where your divine power is proportional to the amount of worshipers you have... You need a Divine Spark... so just killing Nerulls worshipers won't have much of an effect on him as a deity... might piss him off though...

Anywho... Anyone know if they ever made 3.5 Greyhawk books? :smalltongue:




I believe someone already bought up how Epic Magic can kill a deity, unfortunately Nerull is Oerthian and thus not bound by Ao's laws where his Divine Rank is relative to his amount of Worshipers so vaporizing all of Nerulls worshipers will just piss him off... or not... Since they will all be dead and would make Nerull a happy shinigami :smalltongue:

Thank you kind sir for correcting children...people do not read enough dnd books lately to have good arguments xD

Well, it is said in 3,5 Deities and demigods that a deity needs its worshipers to survive. Just killing them might not be enouh, but one can always destroy temples and such. To my knowledge, Ao is the only deity who does not need followers.

or man, just do what the Raven Queen did xD

[Calanon]

Thank you kind sir for correcting children...people do not read enough dnd books lately to have good arguments xD

Is...Is this supposed to be in blue text? :smallconfused: or were you legitimately thanking me?


Well, it is said in 3.5 Deities and demigods that a deity needs its worshipers to survive.

It also says that Deities cannot die... :smallconfused: Deities and Demigods is annoying... and Divinity usually varies depending on how Divinity works for you specific game... most "How to kill [insert deity here]" threads work under the idea that Deities are indeed killable


To my knowledge, Ao is the only deity who does not need followers.

Have you ever heard of "The Master" :smallamused:

Ao closed his eyes and blanked his mind. Soon, he fell within himself and entered the place before time, the time at the edge of the universe, where millions of millions of assignments like his began and ended.

A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and a cold entity, forgiving and harsh. "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing.

"They have restored the balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure."

Anyway... Ao is an Overdeity and as such does not need followers for his divine power... Pretty awesome... Unfortunately most Overpowers (Ao, The Lady Of Pain, "The Master") Are not stated out (and thus not fight-able)... I'd like to believe that it is possible to state them out using the Immortal Handbook but I have no idea where I'd start :smallannoyed:

:smallsmile: :smallsmile: :smallsmile: :smallsmile:

[Wavelab]

This thread is still going? Haven't you defeated Nerull yet?

[Calanon]

This thread is still going? Haven't you defeated Nerull yet?

Please they killed Nerull like Two Three pages ago... Now we're just discussing if Worshipers actually effect Oerthian Deities (I think...) :smallannoyed:

[Wavelab]

Please they killed Nerull like Two Three pages ago... Now we're just discussing if Worshipers actually effect Oerthian Deities (I think...) :smallannoyed:

Interesting. Well I might say something. Later.

[Glassteel]

Actually, I haven't even started on my build yet...the original point of this thread was if anyone out there could help me come up with a build, knew of any tricks, magic item/feat combos, necessary spells, I would need for defeating Nerull. I haven't even STARTED yet lol
Also, Dicefreaks version of Nerull. He has access to Epic Spellcasting, going to make this a wee bit harder, even without his unique Divine Salient abilities...:smallfrown:

[Venser]

Is...Is this supposed to be in blue text? :smallconfused: or were you legitimately thanking me?



It also says that Deities cannot die... :smallconfused: Deities and Demigods is annoying... and Divinity usually varies depending on how Divinity works for you specific game... most "How to kill [insert deity here]" threads work under the idea that Deities are indeed killable



Have you ever heard of "The Master" :smallamused:

Ao closed his eyes and blanked his mind. Soon, he fell within himself and entered the place before time, the time at the edge of the universe, where millions of millions of assignments like his began and ended.

A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and a cold entity, forgiving and harsh. "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing.

"They have restored the balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure."

Anyway... Ao is an Overdeity and as such does not need followers for his divine power... Pretty awesome... Unfortunately most Overpowers (Ao, The Lady Of Pain, "The Master") Are not stated out (and thus not fight-able)... I'd like to believe that it is possible to state them out using the Immortal Handbook but I have no idea where I'd start :smallannoyed:

:smallsmile: :smallsmile: :smallsmile: :smallsmile:

I really was thanking you xD yes, I have heared of the Master, but deicded to ignore him since he, at least to me, makes no sense at all. IMO he is the overdeity of some other multiverse.

[Calanon]

I really was thanking you xD yes, I have heared of the Master, but deicded to ignore him since he, at least to me, makes no sense at all. IMO he is the overdeity of some other multiverse.

Wow... first time i ever actually met someone that actually knows about "The Master" and has actually agreed to me that he is completely worthless :smallconfused:

-Hands you a cookie- You earned this... Personally I believe "The Master" is something beyond Ao. If Ao is a Demiurge (Immortal's Handbook) then "The Master" must be a Supreme Being (again, Immortal's Handbook) :smallamused:

Ah... Wonder if I can get people together to make Ao using the Immortal's Handbook (Without it getting to ridiculous)

[Venser]

Wow... first time i ever actually met someone that actually knows about "The Master" and has actually agreed to me that he is completely worthless :smallconfused:

-Hands you a cookie- You earned this... Personally I believe "The Master" is something beyond Ao. If Ao is a Demiurge (Immortal's Handbook) then "The Master" must be a Supreme Being (again, Immortal's Handbook) :smallamused:

Ah... Wonder if I can get people together to make Ao using the Immortal's Handbook (Without it getting to ridiculous)

The introduction of The Master was completely unnecesary.
Ao has always been shown as th supreme being, the overdeity and the creator of all thing. He could have easily taken over the role of The Master without ever introducing that character.

IMO The Master is the supreme being behind the scene, one who is just there and all other overdeities answer to him, but he has no actual effect on any multiverse.

"And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?"

This line made me believe so. Ao is still the supreme ruler of his cosmos, The Master is just something made up so that people can know that there are still beings out there that we have not heared about.

Anyway, if they wanted to introduce that character, they could have at least give us more information about him. It would make his existance seem less silly.

[Alleran]

This line made me believe so. Ao is still the supreme ruler of his cosmos, The Master is just something made up so that people can know that there are still beings out there that we have not heared about.
Ao describes the "place" (or non-place) where "The Master" is as being the place where many assignments like his begin and end. I usually take it as being some sort of reference to multiple Crystal Spheres, each Sphere with its own overdeity responsible for balancing them and keeping things running until/unless they come to an end for whatever reason (even the Spheres that don't have specific gods - the overdeity would just have set up their Sphere/cosmos that way for whatever reason).

[Rubik]

I always figured it was just the DM.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm almost certain that only makes him vulnerable to two creatures, rather than making him mutually invulnerable to both.



With two singular enemies it should read: "only its intended victims can harm it."
Go reread how Illithid Savant handles multiple instances of the same ability. They are each treated separately and tracked separately and it's impossible to be two separate creatures (including the guy you are trying to attack) at the same time.



As I pointed out earlier in the thread, the whole aleax thing doesn't work anyway.
Yes, it does. You seem to be missing that it's an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of you. Thanks to avoiding material components a creature doesn't have to actually exist to create an Ice Assassin of it. You create it and it's under your absolute command, at which point you order it to let you eat it's brain, that gets you the ability and then the Ice Assassin either turns into snow flakes or you gain the benefits of defeating your Aleax.

[JadePhoenix]

I always figured it was just the DM.

You would be correct.

Am I the only one who thinks it's impossible to think you could kill all of Nerull's followers? He would either a) grow stronger because lots of people are dying (he is the god of death!) or b) he would know what you are doing, then he would kill you before you could actually do it (he 17 weeks to prepare!).
This simply can't be done.

[Aharon]

Yes, it does. You seem to be missing that it's an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of you. Thanks to avoiding material components a creature doesn't have to actually exist to create an Ice Assassin of it. You create it and it's under your absolute command, at which point you order it to let you eat it's brain, that gets you the ability and then the Ice Assassin either turns into snow flakes or you gain the benefits of defeating your Aleax.

The creature has to exist. It's in the spell description and has nothing to do with the material component:


An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature.

You can't create ice assassins of non-existing creatures, and aleaxes have the following text:


An aleax does not exist until it is called into being by a deity. The deity imbues the aleax with a fragment of his or her conciousness before sending it to the location of its intended victim.

That means Step 8. (Create an Ice Assassin of an aleax of yourself) requires DM adjudication. The DM decides wether none, one, 1.000.000 or infinite aleaxes of you exist.

[Rubik]

Go reread how Illithid Savant handles multiple instances of the same ability. They are each treated separately and tracked separately and it's impossible to be two separate creatures (including the guy you are trying to attack) at the same time.The only thing I see is in regards to spellcasting - you add 1 spell per spell level of the consumed brain to what you can already do via your class levels.

It says nothing about overlapping special abilities.

As far as the Singular Enemy ability goes, it's basically invulnerability to anything aside from the one creature you're vulnerable to. Multiple Singular Enemies means you're vulnerable to Multiple Creatures. That's how it's worded, and ruling it otherwise is possible, but (IMO) unlikely.

My way, however, ensures that nothing can harm you, since the creature that can hurt you no longer exists and cannot exist again. Furthermore, it hasn't died, and technically didn't exist fully in the first place, so there's no way to bring it back.