PF Ratfolk Twins Build, Ideas Wanted

[grarrrg]

Alright, so the Bestiary 3 introduced Ratfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/ratfolk) as a playable race.
Small size, -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Int
They have a special ability called "Swarming":

Ratfolk are used to living and fighting communally, and are adept at swarming foes for their own gain and their foes' detriment. Up to two ratfolk can share the same square at the same time. If two ratfolk in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.

The obvious benefit was being able to Flank while being on the SAME SIDE.
The other, more interesting thing, was that it doesn't say ANYTHING about the Ratfolk having to be/stay Small size.

How can we exploit this?
The first problem I see is Movement. Is there anyway to co-move?
Or are there any "use ally's Initiative"-type abilities so they can at least take turns back-to-back? (or is that side-to-side?).

Also, the feat Cavalry Formation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cavalry-formation-combat-teamwork) may be worth a look, allows you to do the same space-share with Mounts.

[GreenSerpent]

Have one Ratfolk Rogue put tons of ranks into Balance and fight on the other ones head. Or on stilts. Then put a cloak over them so they look like one person.

(unfortunately people might mistake you for some monster who lives in darkness...)

[Snowbluff]

Have one Ratfolk Rogue put tons of ranks into Balance and fight on the other ones head. Or on stilts. Then put a cloak over them so they look like one person.

(unfortunately people might mistake you for some monster who lives in darkness...)

Seconded.

Also, make them both Clerics (obligatory Cleric player's suggestion) or make them both rogues (obligatory use of flanking).

[Curious]

Seconded.

Also, make them both Clerics (obligatory Cleric player's suggestion) or make them both rogues (obligatory use of flanking).

Ninjas would probably work better.

[grarrrg]

Bingo.
We need at least 2 spaces worth of Ratfolk (that's 4 Ratfolk total), but it'll work quite nicely.

Holy Tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-tactician) (Paladin) solves most of our problems.

At levels 3 and 7 it gains bonus Teamwork feats AND can grant all nearby allies use of one of their Teamwork feats (NO DURATION).
At level 3 each Paladin gets 1 Teamwork feat and can share that feat. So each Paladin effectively gets _4_ bonus feats at level 3.

At level 8 (which will be our last Paladin Level) each one can spend a move action to give each Ally a free 5ft. step.
This solves our movement problem as instead of each one moving 20ft. and waiting for the other, they can all move together in 5ft. increments.
5 feet X 4 Paladins = 20ft. Same as our base movement. BUT this is 20ft. of 5ft.-steps! No AoO's! AND we can wear Heavy Armor and TANK our base speed and STILL move 20ft./round!

In exchange for all this awesomeness each gets a weaker Smite Evil, and loses their Divine Bond (and some Auras, but....auras...)

Notable Teamwork feats
Coordinated Charge, You charge when Ally charges, helps with simultaneous actions.
Precise Strike, essentially +1d6 Sneak Attack
Shake It Off, +1 to ALL saves per adjacent Ally (pile on the Rats!)
Shield Wall, only if its allowed to stack with multiple Ally's shields (poor wording), otherwise, meh.


Also worth mentioning is the 3rd party Teamwork feat Team Initiative (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/open-design/teamwork-feats/team-initiative-teamwork) which lets you use each others Initiative values.

[Blyte]

perhaps one play a druid, and act as the mount for the other ratfolk who is a mounted fury or cavalier?

edit: have one be a cavalier and the other a barbarian. have them both ride the same mount. the mount would get all the benefits of both the classes.

or have them both be monkey style monks and "monkey shines" all over your opponents.

[grarrrg]

or have them both be monkey style monks and "monkey shines" all over your opponents.

OMG YES!
THIS THIS TOTALLY THIS!

I'm not sure it'd be worth it in the end, and each Rat would have to HIT with a Stunning Fist first...
But having THREE critters in the same square? *giggles*

[grarrrg]

Alright, ignoring the Monkey Shines idea for now, here is what I'm thinking:

This will work best if part of a larger group. At a bare minimum you should have 3 Ratfolk, plus an Arcane caster (really only need 2 Ratfolk, but 3 of the below builds would be used).
Ideally, there are 4 Ratfolk, plus Arcane Caster, plus Divine Caster.

All Ratfolk will be Lawful Good, and have 8 levels of Holy Tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-tactician) Paladin. This allows them to move as a group, or "swarm". Each round instead of moving themselves, they spend a move action to give everyone else a 5-foot step (and take one themselves). With 4 of them, their effective speed is still 20ft (feel free to wear heavy armor).
This also allows the use and sharing of Teamwork feats. I highly recommend Precise Strike for the +1d6 Sneak Attack damage.

(note: levels are final totals for level 20, they are not listed in the order they should be taken in, the group really starts humming around level 10)

I now present
RAT FORCE FIVE! (minus one!)

The Leader
Paladin 20, (Holy Tactician + Warrior of the Holy Light (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/warrior-of-the-holy-light))
High Dex/Con/Cha, will wear Medium (possibly Light) Armor
Trades away spell casting for extra uses of Lay on Hands, which can be spent as normal, for channeling, or for group Morale Bonuses (and eventually Ability Damage Heal, Energy Resistance, and Fortification).
Will make use of Weapon Finesse and the Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Agile) Weapon enchantment.

The Lancer
Paladin (HT) 8/Ranger (Freebooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/freebooter)) 10/Rogue (any) 1/Living Monolith (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/living-monolith) 1
Low Cha ("low" being around 12), High Physicals (heavy armor optional)
Freebooter lets you designate a target as a Move action, and all nearby allies get to-hit/damage (typeless) bonuses until another target is chosen (replaces Favored Enemy), and can also give allies an extra +2 to-hit when flanking. The Rogue level is for +1d6 Sneak Attack. Living Monolith gives 3/day Enlarge Person, as a Swift action with 6 minute duration.

The Smart Guy
Paladin (HT) 8/Rogue (any w/Trapfinding*) 12 (possibly drop a level or 2 to grab Living Monolith)
Mid/High Cha, High Dex > Two-Weapon Fighting, Light/Medium Armor
Rogue gives Skills, Trapfinding, and +6d6 Sneak Attack, will also use Weapon Finesse and the Agile Weapon enchantment.
*Can take an Archetype withOUT Trapfinding, so long as one of the Rangers takes the Trapper archetype.


The Big Guy
Paladin (HT) 8/Ranger (Wild Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/wild-stalker)+Skirmisher) 10/Oracle 1/Living Monolith 1
High Str/Con, Good Cha, Dump Dex, Medium Armor
Oracle is for getting Cha-to-AC from either Lore or Nature Mystery, this lets us dump Dex so we have more points for Str/Con.
Living Monolith for same reasons as Lancer.
Skirmisher trades Ranger spells away, so we don't need Wis either.
Wild Stalker gives us Rage without the Alignment restriction of Barbarian.
For Rage powers we want Reckless Abandon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/reckless-abandon-ex), and Inspire Ferocity. Reckless drops our AC in exchange to a bonus to-hit (typeless). Inspire Ferocity lets us share those adjustments with our allies for Cha number of rounds.


For maximum combat effectiveness, the Lancer and Big Guy should share the same square. When they both Enlarge, they'll have flanking against any/all opponents within Reach. (and they'll both be Medium size sharing the same square :smallbiggrin:)


For a 5th character, an Arcane Caster would be the best choice. Between 4 Paladins worth of Lay on Hands/Channel/spells, I think we have Divine covered.


Each Paladin can share ONE of their Teamwork feats with the others, BUT each Paladin gets (at least) TWO Teamwork feats.
There are a few ways to divvy these up.
Either you can take 8 different Feats (2 each), and have each Paladin share the best one for the situation, or you can have each Paladin Pair have the Same 2 feats.
Somewhere in between is probably best.

Teamwork Feats:
One of's (1 Character takes it, turns it on when needed):
Coordinated Charge, 'on' by default, use it the first round of the encounter to close distance, then switch it to something else.
Lookout, like Coordinated Charge, have it 'on' until a fight starts, then switch to something else.
Shake it Off, if both pairs are in adjacent squares, then this becomes a +3 to ALL SAVES for everyone.
Duck and Cover, can use Ally's Reflex roll instead of your own (your bonuses still apply, you just use their roll-number)

Multi (2 or more character's take it)
Precise Strike, +1d6 'Sneak Attack' damage, both of the 'large' pair has this, 1 of them will share with the other pair, switching to something else if fighting Precision-Damage Immune enemies.
Outflank, +2 to-hit when Flanking (total Flanking bonus of +4, AND Freebooter Ranger makes this +6!)
Paired Opportunists, +4 to-hit on Attacks of Opportunity

[Adamaro]

Ratfolk Paladins? :smallconfused:

[grarrrg]

Ratfolk Paladins? :smallconfused:

Ratfolk are the only race with the "swarming" ability.
Paladin is the easiest way to circumvent having to move/take turns seperately.
There is nothing saying it's NOT allowed.
Why not?

[Vemynal]

This seems like a really fun idea

And sometimes the odder the concept the funner the roleplay if you are willing to get into it. Make up the culture if you want.

Maybe the ratfolk are incredibly religious people who believe in Sun worship and Moon worship like in Rich's "New World" game world builder walktrhough.

Where the world was less good vs. evil and chaos vs law. But the opposing gods were the Lawful Sun goddess and the Chaotic Moon god and which you worshiped depended on what time of the day you were born.

Also, it wouldn't be optimal but I'd suggest
Paladin (HT) 8/Bard Magician archetype 12
4th level spells at 20 again, isn't optimal but would fit with the concept best. Can counter level high spells, weapon familiar, can add 3 spells from any non bard spell list to his spells known.

or
Paladin (HT) 8/Wizard 12
6th level spells...at level 20 that's not much more helpful than 4th level spells for the bard...

Both are able to use scrolls from (UMD) and the Bard even has Cha synergy! Do if you have access to the scrolls I say the Bard is the better option =x

[grarrrg]

Also, it wouldn't be optimal but I'd suggest
Paladin (HT) 8/Bard Magician archetype 12
4th level spells at 20 again, isn't optimal but would fit with the concept best. Can counter level high spells, weapon familiar, can add 3 spells from any non bard spell list to his spells known.

or
Paladin (HT) 8/Wizard 12
6th level spells...at level 20 that's not much more helpful than 4th level spells for the bard...

Both are able to use scrolls from (UMD) and the Bard even has Cha synergy! Do if you have access to the scrolls I say the Bard is the better option =x


We can do better than Paladin 8/Wizard 12.

Sorcerer 12 gets 6th level spells as well, and has Cha synergy.
OR
Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 7 for 6th level spells and better Bab/Hp
OR
Sorc 2/Dragon Disciple 10 (would only have 4th level spells, but +4 Str/+2 Con is tasty)

I am/was wary of Bard only because 'Inspire Courage' has the same bonus type as Holy Tactician's 'Weal's Champion' ability. But Inspire Courage can give overall better benefits: Weal's Champion gives 1/2 user's Cha to-hit, and +2 damage (at Paladin 8).
If one does change to Bard, I'd rather it keep Inspire Courage though (which Magician loses), as it can pump up the group's melee damage.

Yeah... any of these can replace the Wild Stalker Ranger.... that was mainly thrown in because I was running out of useful "group/melee" abilities.

[Crasical]

Does Pathfinder still have that rule that actions that take place at the same initiative occur simultaneously? If so, pick up the Escape Route (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/escape-route-combat-teamwork) teamwork feat and move with your partner by delaying to the slower ally's initiative to never provoke attacks of opportunity again.

[Adamaro]

Ratfolk are the only race with the "swarming" ability.
Paladin is the easiest way to circumvent having to move/take turns seperately.
There is nothing saying it's NOT allowed.
Why not?

Well, nothing with the build I guess, just ratfolk paladins? A mass of ratfolk paladins? Just that paladins are supposed to be beacons of good ... Which I doubt ratfolk are :D

[Crasical]

Well, nothing with the build I guess, just ratfolk paladins? A mass of ratfolk paladins? Just that paladins are supposed to be beacons of good ... Which I doubt ratfolk are :D

Wow, it's someone who still believe that paladins are beacons of good and that ugly monsterous races must all be evil. Amazing! [/sarcasm]

Actually, reading the info on the ratfolk on the pathfinder wiki says they're intensely loyal to their families with strong bonds of brotherhood, living in harmony together. They willingly live in slums and sewers, but also realize that some other humanoids find their rodent features distasteful and wear concealing robes when speaking with them. Some of them even live in big trade caravans and act as merchants, though they like interesting baubles and items more than they do gold.

EDIT: Actually, that joke came off as a little mean spirited. I'm sorry, Adamaro.

[grarrrg]

Does Pathfinder still have that rule that actions that take place at the same initiative occur simultaneously? If so, pick up the Escape Route (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/escape-route-combat-teamwork) teamwork feat and move with your partner by delaying to the slower ally's initiative to never provoke attacks of opportunity again.

Not necessary.
We're already (ab)using the Holy Tactician ability to get repeated 5-foot steps. We don't have to worry about who rolls what for Initiative OR provoking AoO's for moving!
MUHUHHAHAHAHA!

[Crasical]

Not necessary.
We're already (ab)using the Holy Tactician ability to get repeated 5-foot steps. We don't have to worry about who rolls what for Initiative OR provoking AoO's for moving!
MUHUHHAHAHAHA!

I gave the paladin stuff a cursory glance and then ignored it after that treatise you wrote on two weapon fighting as a gunslinger made my brain leak out my ears and decided I didn't want that to happen again.

[grarrrg]

I gave the paladin stuff a cursory glance and then ignored it after that treatise you wrote on two weapon fighting as a gunslinger made my brain leak out my ears and decided I didn't want that to happen again.

lolwut?

I assume you mean the Gunslinger Reload guide?

Yeah...the brain leaky out the ears thingy will happen with that...



Short version of Key Paladin ability.
Small characters have a speed of 20ft.
So if everybody takes 1 move action on their turn, they can move 20 feet.

BUT with Holy Tactician Paladin
Character A spends a Move action to let EVERYONE move 5-feet, no AoO's.
Then Character B spends a Move to let everyone move 5-feet,
Then Char C, then Char D.
End result is everyone STILL moves 20 feet, but they didn't provoke any AoO's and it was done incrementally over the ENTIRE round. This preserves the 'adjacent/space share' of the Ratfolk.

The Paladins Move>5-Step ability has a range of "hear or see", so if you get a LOT of 8th level paladins with Maxed perception.....Can you say Paladin-Horde-Railgun?

[Crasical]

... So your version requires eight levels of paladin and four ratfolk instead of no levels in anything and two ratfolk? :smallconfused:

[Blyte]

to solve the all rat folk moving at the same time thing, you can have half of them be 8th level order of the dragon/honor guard cavaliers.

with "strategy" they get to sacrifice a standard action and give all their allies a move action, including themselves, and the ones that don't need to move can get bonuses to other things.

in addition, give them all:
the "helpful" trait, swift aid another feat, and saving shield feat.

they will be like rodent spartans

[grarrrg]

with "strategy" they get to sacrifice a standard action and give all their allies a move action, including themselves, and the ones that don't need to move can get bonuses to other things.

Doesn't quite work
Order of the Dragon: (emphasis mine)

the ability to move up to their speed as an immediate action once. The cavalier can grant a different bonus to each ally within range, but allies can only benefit from this ability once per combat.

It's nice, but once per combat? Even if all 4 were Cavaliers, you still only get 4 Move actions out of it, AND it burns your Swift action for the next turn.


... So your version requires eight levels of paladin and four ratfolk instead of no levels in anything and two ratfolk? :smallconfused:

Yeah, it kind of spiraled out of control when I tried to synch up their Initiative/Movement.
I do like how it's turning out though. 4 Paladins in some-holds-barred melee beatdown goodness.


But you want a 2 Ratfolk build....

I present the "Circle of PAIN!"
*note: each Ratfolk has the same basic build, they will specialize in different Skills as their points allow, and may take some different feats*
Not a full build, but it won't take much to finish off.

High Dex/Con, Str is not a concern, slight focus on Wis, Int/Cha to taste.

Weapon of choice is an Agile Whip (when Finessing we gain Dex-to-Damage)

(levels in no particular order)
Daredevil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/daredevil) Bard 2 for Whip Prof. and +2 to the Combat Maneuver of our choice.

Maneuver Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/maneuver-master) Monk 3, we can make a Maneuver during a Full Attack (at -2), and we get 2 bonus feats, and Improved Unarmed Strike (the bonus feats will be spend on Imp/Great Trip as we DON'T need Combat Expertise).

Unbreakable (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/unbreakable) Fighter 2, first level grants Endurance and Die Hard as bonus feats (you lose your normal fighter feat), a choice of feat at 2.

Thug (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/thug) Rogue 8 for +4d6 Sneak Attack, 4 Rogue Talents, and Brutal Beating > we can do 1d6 less Sneak attack damage to make the target Sickened for 4 rounds.

Pain Taster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/pain-taster) 5, +2d6 damage with Whips, +4 Enhancement bonus to Stat of choice (probably DEX, unless/until we get an Item of +Dex).

Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat)/Improved Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-whip-mastery-combat), combined they let us treat a Whip as a 'normal' weapon, and let us make AoO's out to 10ft.
Agile Maneuvers/Weapon Finesse, Dex replaces Str for attacks and CMB.
Improved/Greater Trip, total of +4 bonus to Trip attempts, a successful trip lets you make an AoO against that target
Combat Reflexes, Dex focused build with Reach, need I say more? (could have said less)
Vicious Stomp (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vicious-stomp-combat), If for any reason an opponent should fall prone, you get a Free AoO against them, though it must be an unarmed strike...now when would an opponent EVER become prone next to us? :smallbiggrin: (yeah, our unarmed strikes kinda suck, but hey free hits!)