To Kensai or not to Kensai?

[Chronos Flame]

Hey everyone. My group is starting a new game, and in order to switch things up I have decided to play a martial adept rather than my usual caster types. I will be playing an Unarmed Swordsage and (dont yell at me) taking Vow of Poverty. I can't however decide if I should take Kensai or not. It would let me enchant my hands, but I would lose stuff from Swordsage which is pretty cool. So which is "Better"? Long run (Sword20 or Swrd10/Kensai10)? What about only to level 10 (Sword7/Kensai3?)
I know I'm not gonna be all that amazing either way thanks to the vow, but which is that little bit better? Are there any other ways to give fists enchantments besides "+x" without needing cash?

[eggs]

I know I'm not gonna be all that amazing either way thanks to the vow, but which is that little bit better? Are there any other ways to give fists enchantments besides "+x" without needing cash?
Swordsage is where you're going to get high-level requirements like teleportation and Flight, so you aren't going to want to neglect it at high levels. But it's true that there isn't a whole lot of built-in damage available with VoP.

Staggering and interspersing Swordsage 7/Kensai 2/Swordsage 1/Kensai 2... would probably be the least bad approach. Weapon enhancements are worth a lot of damage, especially with the multi-strike maneuvers. And Instill is just a cool ability.

[Chronos Flame]

So you think, assuming 20 levels (which I doubt we will play to, just in theory) that the kensai levels give more than the maneuvers?

[eggs]

So you think, assuming 20 levels (which I doubt, just in theory) that the kensai levels give more than the maneuvers?
I think maneuvers are definitely more powerful, but most rely on a certain degree of base competence that isn't available to a VoP Swordsage.

Base damage for a VoP swordsage is going to sit around 3.5+1.5*Strength+Weapon Enhancement, which is practically nothing. Even for a Water Orc with a starting 22 and all ability boosts focused on strength, you'd be looking at 26 base damage per attack at level 20 (and an attack bonus below 30, so power attacking is out). No matter what bonus attacks or damage multipliers get tacked on, the end product is going to remain negligible.

Kensai at least gives large enough numbers for to Raging Mongoose or Diamond Nightmare Blade to matter.

The alternative would be cherrypicking the maneuvers that either produce effects that are meaningful even with their damage stripped away (like Swooping Dragon Strike or much of Setting Sun) or maneuvers that produce damage though their own mechanisms (Greater Insightful Strike).

[JaronK]

One solution would be to use bloodlines, due to the way a major bloodline interacts with multiple initiator classes. That way you could have your cake and eat it too.

JaronK

[Chronos Flame]

Yeah, Like I said, I doubt I'm going to reach awesome. Simply more doable is desirable. Also, JaronK, how do they interact that would make them a good choice?

[eggs]

Yeah, Like I said, I doubt I'm going to reach awesome. Simply more doable is desirable. Also, JaronK, how do they interact that would make them a good choice?
The maximum maneuver level learned in a class = levels in the class + 1/2 levels in other classes.

Bloodline levels are added to class levels when making level-based calculations.

So when calculating the maximum level of maneuvers known, a 12+ level character with a Major Bloodline can learn powers as a Swordsage with class levels = [(Swordsage Levels +3)+1/2*(NonSwordsage Levels+3)].

For a Swordsage/Kensai, that would put you slightly behind the party in HD/base attack/&c., but you'd stay at a comparable Swordsage level to what you would with straightclassed un-Bloodlined Swordsage (even slightly passing the standard Swordsage's effective levels during the mid-levels).

The downside is that Bloodline levels come at an experience cost. If you play by the DMG's experience guidelines (where lower-level characters gain experience at a faster rate), the Experience cost will set a character back by about one level compared to the rest of the group for around a half of the character's career. And if the DMG's experience rules are houseruled away (as they frequently are, because they're just a general pain in the ass), the experience costs will never be made up, which would make a Bloodlined character basically unplayable.

So Bloodlines could make this work, but be sure your game will accommodate them before you ink them onto your character sheet.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Kensai will be useful if you have vop.
Especially if you are based on Strength.
Choose the following enhancements:
- basic +1 (you need it to advance further)
- collision (+5 damage per hit) price +2
- martial discipline (+3 to hit) price +1
- eager (+2 to initiative and damage in the first/surprise round) price +1
- warning (+5 to initiative) price +1
- bloodfeeding (stores damage you can place strategically) price +1
- parrying (+1 untyped AC and Saves) price +2
- sonic (1d4 extra sonic damage) price +1

more basic enhancement bonuses are granted by VoP

You'll be fine.

[Chronos Flame]

I think I'm going to avoid bloodlines... That seems a little... I dunno. RAW over RAI I guess?
Yeah D@rk. That is a bit like what I was thinking. It mostly comes down to that vs high level maneuvers. I guess that gives more damage and the maneuvers more versatility?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Maneuvers can give you a lot of damage, actually, especially if you have many attacks and use boosts to increase your effectiveness.

Technically you can still obtain level 9 maneuvers if you only take 6 levels in the Kensai prc. :smallsmile:

Possible progression:
Swordsage 10, Kensai 2, sws1, ken2, sws1, ken2, sws2

[Rossebay]

One solution would be to use bloodlines, due to the way a major bloodline interacts with multiple initiator classes. That way you could have your cake and eat it too.

JaronK

Do bloodlines interact with Kensai in the same fashion...?

[Chronos Flame]

I was thinking about it today while finishing statting out the lvl 4 version (thats where we are starting) of the character and was thinking Sword14/Kensai6 just as you said. I was thinking of starting at level 8 with kensai, but other than that, thats pretty much the progression I was thinking. Plus that means 2 levels of kensai if this doesnt go past level 10, which it might not.
Now I just have to think what +6 I will get (assuming I get all +6) Defending is the only one I know for sure would be awesome :)

[Person_Man]

My personal preference would be to stick with Swordsage 20, because it offers more interesting options.

From an optimization standpoint, I think it depends on what weapon enchantments your DM allows. If you spend some time mining the forums and the splat books and end up with multiple (2+ fists, tentacles, etc) +1 Wrathful Healing Paralyzing Valorous Smoking etc weapons, then it's probably worth it. If you end up with one just one weapon with core-ish enchantments, then it's probably not worth it.

If you do go Kensai, you should probably go with a Warblade entry instead, since there is a clear Concentration synergy between the Kensai class abilities and the Diamond Mind discipline.

Also, the best Kensai combo I know is a bit of a cheat. Use your class ability to transfer as much of your BAB as you can to a willing ally, and get the Skillful weapon enhancement (Comp Arcane), which boosts your BAB back up to 3/4 your character level.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

If you do go Kensai, you should probably go with a Warblade entry instead, since there is a clear Concentration synergy between the Kensai class abilities and the Diamond Mind discipline.
iirc Swordsage has diamond mind

[danzibr]

As far as *cool* goes, totally pick up 10 levels of Kensai.

Also, IIRC (and I don't think anyone mentioned this), PrC's add fully to your ML.

[Murmaider]

Also, IIRC (and I don't think anyone mentioned this), PrC's add fully to your ML.

I think that's neither RAW nor RAI, since ToB never mentions which PrCs("most"?) fully improve IL. Clearly, this references only to those PrCs available in ToB with the remark: "You add your full (any PrC in ToB except Bloodstorm Blade) levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known."

[eggs]

Also, IIRC (and I don't think anyone mentioned this), PrC's add fully to your ML.
That's not true without a willful misreading.

(The phrase that says "In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level..." redirects the reader to the prestige class section for specifications. The prestige class section clarifies that the previously mentioned "most cases" refers to "Most of the prestige classes presented in this chapter." Additionally, if the default rule were that all prestige class levels were added to initiator level, because there are no prestige classes which don't explicitly not progress Initiator level, the phrase "most cases" would be misleading, as there would be no exceptions.)

[DrDeth]

Kensal to get around VoP restrictions is just plain cheesy. Sorry . The dev for that class even posted years ago he thought it was cheesy. There’s also huge RPing restrictions for BoED.

Just go Unarmed Swordsage, all 20. RP the VoP. Limit yourself to a handful of items.

[Rubik]

Kensal to get around VoP restrictions is just plain cheesy.And yet it's still much less powerful and versatile than a non-VoP character with 75% WBL.

[DrDeth]

Cheesy isn’t always powergamed.

[Rubik]

Cheesy isn’t always powergamed.Okay, so, it's perfectly legal, and it's not overpowered. I see no problems here.

[Chronos Flame]

My personal preference would be to stick with Swordsage 20, because it offers more interesting options.

From an optimization standpoint, I think it depends on what weapon enchantments your DM allows. If you spend some time mining the forums and the splat books and end up with multiple (2+ fists, tentacles, etc) +1 Wrathful Healing Paralyzing Valorous Smoking etc weapons, then it's probably worth it. If you end up with one just one weapon with core-ish enchantments, then it's probably not worth it.

If you do go Kensai, you should probably go with a Warblade entry instead, since there is a clear Concentration synergy between the Kensai class abilities and the Diamond Mind discipline.

Also, the best Kensai combo I know is a bit of a cheat. Use your class ability to transfer as much of your BAB as you can to a willing ally, and get the Skillful weapon enhancement (Comp Arcane), which boosts your BAB back up to 3/4 your character level.

Well the tentacles and fists and such not only don't fit the character concept really, kensai only lets you enchant a single type of natural attack IIRC. I plan to stay swordsage, it fits the concept I have much better.



As far as *cool* goes, totally pick up 10 levels of Kensai.
That's what I'm leaning towards. Only probably a little less than all 10


Kensal to get around VoP restrictions is just plain cheesy. Sorry . The dev for that class even posted years ago he thought it was cheesy. There’s also huge RPing restrictions for BoED.

Just go Unarmed Swordsage, all 20. RP the VoP. Limit yourself to a handful of items.
I don't really understand how it's cheesy. It can really add to the flavor of VoP. Normally you get a base enchantment modifier but an elemental enchantment or ghost touch is at least as cool as it is good. I'm not talking about trying to tack on throwing and returning on my fists, I'm talking about picking up a very small amount of the slack VoP leaves so I can keep the flavor of the character with VoP while getting some cool useful stuff. I'm pretty sure the shortcomings of VoP aren't from magical weapons, but magical everything else.

[hex0]

Kensai is one of those PRC that is only worth it in Gestalt, imho.

[chaotician375]

Kensai is one of those PRC that is only worth it in Gestalt, imho.

I don't know I made a pretty effective Fighter/Kensai/Exotic Weapons Master that was killing everything it hit, which was anything but a natural 1.