[PF] What class/archetype fits best?

[Kirti]

I've really gone in circles trying to pick a class for upcoming pathfinder game (homebrew campaign). I have a good idea of what I want for my character (listed below), but I'm having trouble picking a class that is effective. Not having played D&D too much, it's hard to read over a class in the books and know how effective they really are (I would have thought nothing was wrong with the base monk and thought of diamond body, etc. as awesome!)

Question
Given my definition of effective and the list of what I'm looking for, what class or archetype do you think best fits from your experience playing them?

Effective Definition
By effective, I mean that I would like to be able to contribute something noticeable to the group in both combat & social situations. Carve out a role if you will..

We are using a 25-point buy and will probably play from level 5 - 15. Party composition is: Fighter (Lore Warden), Cavalier, Wizard/Illusionist, and Alchemist (Grenadier)

I played a rogue in a previous low level campaign and found that I wasn't able to bring to the table what the paladin, cleric, and druid did. However, I did have plenty of creative things to do for social situations.

What I'm Looking For

Martial Class (Would prefer magic to be kept to a minimum, but am open to it if it fits really well)
Lean towards melee (I wouldn't mind ranged, but I like the tactics involved in constantly re-positioning that seem to be more prevalent with melee).
A 'finesse' class. I enjoy having lots of abilities that have to be used appropriatly to be successful. A highly mobile skirmisher if you will...
High Mobility (love dodging/rolling/etc.). Seems like many of the skirmisher classes need to full attack to be effective = \
Skills/Out of Combat Viability. I enjoy being useful in combat, but don't want to be a walking mannequin out of combat.


Some ideas I have

Monk (I have no idea which archetypes are actually good and which are not)
Rogue
Ranger (Base Class, Skirmisher Archetype)
Soulknife
Fighter (Mobile Fighter, Two Weapon Fighting, Dawnflower Dervish Archetypes)
Barbarian


In some way, I'm trying to figure out which of the melee classes/archetypes are manual transmissions and which ones are automatic. I'm looking for those classes that aren't one-trick ponies and require a lot of hands-on or manual control vs. resorting to the same strategy no matter what is happening around you.

I've made 1-2 posts before trying to get a rogue to fit, but I thought I'd just open it up and see what people have seen work and not work from their experiences.

Thank you in advance for your time and responses!

[The-Mage-King]

Hm...


Are you allowed 3.5 materials? Because the Swordsage is JUST what you're looking for. It's basically the monk done right, or just any lightly armored mobile combatant.


Otherwise, I'd suggest something like... Oh, Hungry Ghost Qinggong Monk, maybe with Master of Many Styles.

[Bhaakon]

There are a lot of classes the fit the bill with the right build: rogue, ranger, bard, magus, and that's ignoring the divine full casters which provide both great versatility and melee mashing if built correctly. But the one I'm going to suggest is Inquistor.

Max out your strength, grab a 2-handed weapon, and take travel domain: you've got a heavy-hitting melee machine that can teleport around the battlefield setting up flanks at 8th level. And with 6 skill points, tons of utility abilities, and touch of divine casting, you should always have something to contribute. I also love solo tactics; no one ever uses teamwork feats otherwise, and some of them are pretty nice. And between cunning initiative, high Wis, and perception as a class skill, you're going to be acting first most of the time.

[Kirti]

@The-Mage-King:
Unfortunately, we're sticking to Pathfinder (and possible 3rd party published Pathfinder) material. All of the martial adepts from ToB caught my fancy, but that's for another day.

What is it that makes the Hungry Ghost Qinggong Monk so effective? I've seen it mentioned a few times as a very potent Monk build.

@Bhaakon:
I'd stayed away from the Inquisitor class mainly due to spell casting and the flavor (you're really geared to hunt things/people down and it feels like a more focused melee cleric). However, you make some very good points about how it aligns to what I had mentioned. I'll take a closer look!

I'd love to keep hearing people's thoughts!

[The-Mage-King]

@The-Mage-King:
Unfortunately, we're sticking to Pathfinder (and possible 3rd party published Pathfinder) material. All of the martial adepts from ToB caught my fancy, but that's for another day.

Damn. Worth checking.


What is it that makes the Hungry Ghost Qinggong Monk so effective? I've seen it mentioned a few times as a very potent Monk build.

Simply put, Qinggong (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) monk gets SLAs and other stuff powered by Ki.

Hungry Ghost (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/hungry-ghost-monk) monk can obtain additional Ki by killing stuff.

Yeah.


I'd say that Drunken Master works well in place of Hungry Ghost, but that's just my opinion (Praise be unto Cayden Cailean!) :smalltongue:




Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) gets style feats instead of lame Monk bonus feats, and replaces Flurry with the ability to use two styles at once. So you lose little by taking it, and gain FUN.

[Novawurmson]

Dervish Dancing Bard and Magus are both excellent light, mobile melee combatants, with Bard leaning towards social skills and Magus leaning towards raw damage.

I love Master of Many Styles Monks (with Qinggong - always Qinggong!). You can get quite a lot of mobility and some interesting bonus effects. The Panther Style chain might interest you, as might the Dragon Style chain. I'm a big fan of Marid Style/Marid Spirit, but that's my personal love of cold damage. (Style feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats)).

I'll go ahead and toot my own horn with my (unfinished) guide to the Pathfinder Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233032). If you want to be a more mobile barbarian, optimize around standard actions with feats like Vital Strike and rage powers like Knockdown. If you're going all the way to 15, Horizon Walker 3 might be a viable build choice for rage-cycling (explained in the guide). A well-built barbarian can bring a lot of interesting choices to a combat.

I'm assuming the Soulknife is the Dreamscarred Press Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) on the SRD? They're a great class that (like the barbarian) brings a lot of support to the party with their blade skills. Do you know if you'll have access to Psionics Expanded, the partially-completed supplement? They're a fine class with just the material on the SRD, but they got a huge influx of new blade skills in the last few releases. Psychic Strike is a great skill for skirmishing. I highly recommend Weapon Special (Trip) => Toppling Strike => Improved Toppling Strike.

The Psychic Warrior is another nice skirmisher, can function decently without heavy investment into manifesting, but really shines if you're willing to buff yourself effectively. I'm running an NPC in a game I'm playing who basically just uses her feats and stats for combat, and uses her powers for non-combat situations, but she's intentionally under-optimized. Again, Psionics Expanded brings a lot of great feats and archetypes for the Psychic Warrior.

I would not recommend a Fighter if you want to be competent outside of combat.

Druids can be pretty effective melee fighters in a mid-level game because of wild shape; even with the nerf, hit level 6 and wildshape into a tiger. Boom. You are now Large, with +4 Str, +4 natural armor, three natural attacks (all of which use your full BAB and Str bonus), pounce, and grab. Use your spells to summon squirrels to talk to.

A Beastmorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/beastmorph)/Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist) Alchemist seems viable. Turn into a monster and nom people.

[Keneth]

I'm gonna join with Novawurmson and vote for Bard and Magus dervish dancer, or Soulknife if psionics are allowed.

As far as monks go, I've never seen one that contributed meaningfully in a fight (archetypes or not). They're bottom tier for a reason.

[Psyren]

I'm gonna join with Novawurmson and vote for Bard and Magus dervish dancer, or Soulknife if psionics are allowed.

As far as monks go, I've never seen one that contributed meaningfully in a fight (archetypes or not). They're bottom tier for a reason.

Hungry Ghost+Qinggong is a clear step up though.

Anyway, I second Dervish Dancer and Soulknife, though Rogue or Ninja can work pretty well also.

[Krazzman]

As far as monks go, I've never seen one that contributed meaningfully in a fight (archetypes or not). They're bottom tier for a reason.

That's because they are still MAD and can't hit the broad side of a bawn with their FoF(Flurry of Failure).

Now the Zen Archer Monk CAN contribute in a meaningful way as ranged carry. He is nearly the best archer you can get. He is additionally the best entry way to Arcane Archer if you dash in Empyreal Sorcerer Levels. This will give you a SAD Arcane Archer. For a Zen Archer to work you need dex 13, high Wis, Str and con at least 12 and have Int and Charisma as dump stats, dumping str could be survived(maybe).

For the Hungry Ghost Qingong monk you need to have a +2 Weapon to contribute in a meaningful way of reducing your MADness and a +3 to be even better. One of this special ability enchantments could be illegal (it's the guided property) the other is Keen. Put it on an avaible and profecient 18-20 weapon and you have a 25% chance to get ki back.

Another point could be MoMS. I haven't really read through them but some combinations of styles are quite awesome and help you to contribute fully. You are still MAD and will want a GUIDED anything but MoMS helps you get rid of your FoF and gives you quite a good bunch of options.

[CTrees]

Master of Many Styles is fun, I'll say that. Also, Cavalier 4/Sohei X (or an mounted melee, really - the fighter variants, the mounted barbarian, etc.) can be interesting with the Horse Master feat. On that line, Rangers get good mileage out of the Boon Companion feat.

I know you don't want too much magic, but Magus is great, and the Synthesist Summoner... you want fine control, you have all of the fine control. Just, you know, limit your spells to summon eidolon and buffs/heals (since your heals are self-only, anyway), and only use the Summon Monster SLA as a backup.

[grarrrg]

I love Master of Many Styles Monks (with Qinggong - always Qinggong!). You can get quite a lot of mobility and some interesting bonus effects. The Panther Style chain might interest you, as might the Dragon Style chain. I'm a big fan of Marid Style/Marid Spirit, but that's my personal love of cold damage. (Style feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats)).

Marid Style all the way!
You get +5ft. reach on your Elemental Fist attacks.

Take Oakling as your race (3rd party), it has perfect Monk stats of +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and has access to some Racial Feats, 2 are quite nice.
One with Wood gives you +2 damage with Wooden weapons. You are a Tree. Guess what your Unarmed Strikes are?

Mighty Oak is the other feat, you need +6 bab, but you get +5ft. reach, no questions asked.

Also clocking in at +6 bab is the Lunge feat, gives you +5ft. reach on your turn only (cannot apply to Attacks of Opportunity)

So you can punch people 15 feet away (Mighty Oak+Lunge).
When adding Elemental Fist/Marid you can punch up to 20 feet.
But when making Attacks of Opportunity it's only 10ft.

BUT if you take a Weapon Proficiency with a Reach weapon your Attacks and AoO's go up to 20ft. and 15ft. respectively, AND you can still make Unarmed Strikes so you threaten EVERYTHING within 20-of-15 feet.
*cue evil laughter*

[KutuluKultist]

Mobility to the point of not relying on full attacks can be achieved by:

High acrobatics score (high dex, racial bonuses or skill focus, even)
High strength and a big, two-handed weapon (usually greatsword)
Power Attack and furious focus (basically gets you the damage bonus without the to hit penalty)
Spring attack (and dodge and mobility)
Vital strike line (not the best of feast, but with a big weapon and since you've decided to skirmish anyway...)
High movement (travel domain is great, so is 1 level of barbarian)
Sneak Attack (mobility allows for lots of flanking)

If allowed psionics, speed of thought and up the walls are excellent mobility options, too.

Ways to get there:[list]
Barbarian 1 gives fast movement and rage. If you take a 2 extra rage feats, you should have enough rage to last you through the day.
Inquisitor 3 gives you solo tactics, a few spells and judgement 1/d. Solo tactics allows you to use teamwork feats without other characters having to take them too. This allows for stuff like outflank, precise strike and gang up. It also gives you access to travel domain.
Both rogue and ninja give you sneak attack.
Fighter can give you extra feats to get stuff early.

Barbarian 1/Inquisitor 3/Fighter (lore warden) 2/Rogue x

gives you +20 ft. movement, +x/2 d6 sneak attack, rage, 1 judgement/day, solo tactics and one bonus teamwork feat. Further bonus feats can be acquired from rogue via combat training. (can be taken twice by a swashbuckler rogue).

All classes have 4+ skill points and between inquisitor and rogue, you have almost any skill as a class skill.

A level five build could look like this:
Human: Power Attack
1st: Extra Rage
3rd: Dodge
5th: Mobility
Fighter1: Spring Attack

You thus start out with 50 movement, spring attack and 2d6+str*1.5+power attack, with 10+con rage rounds per day. You also have a couple of spells and many skill points.

Then go:
Fighter 2: Furious Focus
Fighter 2: Combat Expertise
7th: Extra Rage
Rogue 2: Vital Strike
9th: Precise Strike
Rogue 4: Cleave
11th: Outflank

[Novawurmson]

Barbarian 1/Inquisitor 3/Fighter (lore warden) 2/Rogue x


So you don't get rage powers (and your rage rounds/day is quite low), you don't advance Inquisitor casting (and other class abilities), you don't get favored class bonuses, you're way behind in sneak attack progression... and you get 20ft. movement. Just cast expeditious retreat on yourself. :smallconfused:

Honestly, one of the main attractions of Pathfinder to me is the fact that multiclassing is mostly unnecessary. I feel like a Barbarian OR an Inquisitor OR a Rogue (maybe a straight Fighter) could do as much or more than any mixture of them.

[Stormageddon]

How about Ninja or Rogue (Scout)?

[Curious]

How about Ninja or Rogue (Scout)?

A Ninja Scout is even better; the best of both worlds. Be a Kitsune and grab the Vulpine Pounce feat, and you can get all of your sneak attacks off on a charge.

[Hylas]

I'll put my 2cp in just so there's more to consider.

Official pathfinder ruling on Spring Attack is that you can use any feat that is a standard attack action, like vitial strike or cleave, so keep that in mind.

Scout may be what you want (and you can take it as a ninja if you like the class features there, plus you get the kanata and kusarigama, two very fun weapons). Any time you move you also sneak attack, so if you get spring attack that helps you to keep moving. Also consider power attack + furious focus, as it'll quickly become much better than weapon focus and it won't tie you up to a single weapon.

A build I was playing with in my head (but I haven't done any crunch for) is to take Inquisitor to 3 for solo tactics (not needed if your melee party members will take paired opportunist), then level up monk/fighter brawler from then on. Take crane style, broken wing gambit, and paired opportunist.

Crane style + crane wing lets you deflect any attack that would hit you.
Broken Wing Gambit gives enemies a +2 to hit and +2 damage on you, but they provoke AoO from your allies when they attack you.
Paired Opportunist gives you a +4 to attack on AoO and you get an AoO whenever a nearby ally also gets one, such as when you have Broken Wing Gambit (requires other people to take this feat or solo tactics).
The third feat in crane style makes it so you get another AoO when you deflect an attack. Combat reflexes helps at this point.

But it's more of a one-trick pony, and isn't the dodging flipping kind of guy other than no one will want to punch you after a while.

[Anderlith]

Cavalier, maybe the Escort variant

[Blyte]

Since you like a cunning combatant and listed monks and rogues as options, I suggest playing a ninja. They are a fun class with tons of options.

They get a Ki pool like monks, allowing them to do some pretty neato ninja magic (the one that mimics mirror image is awesome). They can get a bonus style feat, combat feat, and weapon finesse.

They are an amazing alternative to the rogue.

[Kirti]

I'll put my 2cp in just so there's more to consider.

Official pathfinder ruling on Spring Attack is that you can use any feat that is a standard attack action, like vitial strike or cleave, so keep that in mind.

Scout may be what you want (and you can take it as a ninja if you like the class features there, plus you get the kanata and kusarigama, two very fun weapons). Any time you move you also sneak attack, so if you get spring attack that helps you to keep moving. Also consider power attack + furious focus, as it'll quickly become much better than weapon focus and it won't tie you up to a single weapon.

Did you mean that Spring Attack cannot be used with a standard attack (Skirmish from Scout Arch., Vital Strike, Cleave, etc.)? I was actually looking closely at the scout archetype, but it seems to lean a bit more towards range to fully leverage skirmish. It's cool to be rewarded for moving though...



How about Ninja or Rogue (Scout)?


I was actually looking at a scout, but ran into a minor roadblock that I discussed above. I haven't looked into a Ninja too closely, but the flavor throws me off a bit. I do like that they have a Ki pool. One thing I'm starting to see is that the classes with a pool of points provide a sort of 'epic moment' action when you're in the middle of combat. You're doing a, b, c and then you channel your ki/ignite your rage/etc. and then BAM - D, E, F.

Are the rogue & ninja classes that different? Other than the introduction of the Ki pool to the ninja?

Thanks to everyone for the responses! I've been looking through the suggestions laid out and I've found myself leaning towards the Hungry Ghost Quingong Monk, Ninja, Bard and the Skirmisher Ranger.

On that note, has anyone played the Skirmisher archetype for the Ranger? Did you enjoy it?

[KutuluKultist]

So you don't get rage powers

There are very few good rage powers and those there are require a substantial investment in barbarian levels.



(and your rage rounds/day is quite low)
I repeat: Two Extra Rage feats should keep you covered for your general adventuring day.



, you don't advance Inquisitor casting

The OP explicitly wanted to keep magic to a minimum.


(and other class abilities)

You're here for travel domain and solo tactics. You get to have nice skills and some gimmicks on the way to there.



, you don't get favored class bonuses,

Be a half elf. Or consider 4 Hit Points/Skill Points to be an OK loss.



you're way behind in sneak attack progression...

That is true, but less bad than you think. You get precise strike, covering for 1d6 of sneak already and due to rage you get +2 strength, which translates into +3 damage, which is almost another d6, only it also gives a to hit bonus.


and you get 20ft. movement.Just cast expeditious retreat on yourself. :smallconfused:

Which is an in-combat buff of limited duration and availability and doesn't allow you to ignore difficult terrain, doesn't give you rage or solo tactics, or... well, it's not really the same thing....



Honestly, one of the main attractions of Pathfinder to me is the fact that multiclassing is mostly unnecessary.

Necessary is a loaded term here. I'm merely saying that it can still be done profitably. Less profitably than in 3.5, though.



I feel like a Barbarian OR an Inquisitor OR a Rogue (maybe a straight Fighter) could do as much or more than any mixture of them.

I'm inclined to disagree slightly.

Also, I'm very disappointed that spring attack doesn't work with cleave and vital strike. That's bull****, spring attack was the only reason to take vital strike....