Are shurikens any good?

[ahenobarbi]

My cleric will have to get shuriken proficiency (for PrC entry). Is there anyway to make this useful?

I know I could deal infinite damage with every hit but I have a feeling my DM wouldn't allow this :smallamused:

[Azoth]

Could do a monk dip to avoid wasting a feat. Aside from being ammo for a some enchants they are next to useless in most cases.

[ahenobarbi]

Could do a monk dip to avoid wasting a feat. Aside from being ammo for a some enchants they are next to useless in most cases.

I know how I want to get it (Psychic Reformation!? so I will have this wasted only for short) I'm just wondering if I can use it somehow or if it's completely useless.

Thanks for saying it's useless... damn why they even made weapon so weak?

[Augulus]

They can be useful... with the right characters.

Think rogue/ninja type. shurikens are super light, don't require any other weapon, and can have poison/other effects added on to them. I'm not sure a cleric would be using them a whole lot, however.

[panaikhan]

Ammunition is destroyed if it hits, right?
So what if you make them out of something indestructible?

or, make them out of glass (they're gonna break anyway) and fill them full of nasty stuff.

[Keneth]

I know how I want to get it (Psychic Reformation!? so I will have this wasted only for short)
If you no longer meet the prerequisites for a PrC, you lose its abilities. So you can't use psychic reformation to regain "wasted" feats or skill points.

[ahenobarbi]

Think rogue/ninja type. shurikens are super light, don't require any other weapon, and can have poison/other effects added on to them. I'm not sure a cleric would be using them a whole lot, however.

So they are good at something? That's a relief :smallbiggrin:


Ammunition is destroyed if it hits, right?
So what if you make them out of something indestructible?

Hmm maybe. What was that material that could be re-forged quickly?

[Darrin]

Hmm maybe. What was that material that could be re-forged quickly?

Aurorum from BoED.

And there's an argument that Riverine shurikens are immune to normal damage and couldn't be destroyed... but that might be a tough sell on RAW.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

To avoid wasting money, have "greater magic weapon" casted on your shurikens in the morning by your favorite wizard/cleric/paladin

To make this "useful" (not useless), you could wear Gloves of the Balanced Hand and throw a shuriken as an off-hand attack whenever you make a full attack

[Mystify]

Shurikens have their uses, in the right places. On a Cleric is generally not one of them. I'm really not sure what a cleric would do with shurikens.

[Augulus]

Or, you could chuck a bunch of glass shurikens into [insert enemy here]'s gut, and proceed to cast "shatter" :smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

Shurikens have their uses, in the right places. On a Cleric is generally not one of them. I'm really not sure what a cleric would do with shurikens.

A cleric could add enchantments that he gets as long as he simply has it for cheap, like a metal that gives +3 vs. disease, or eager(+initiative).

[Mystify]

A cleric could add enchantments that he gets as long as he simply has it for cheap, like a metal that gives +3 vs. disease, or eager(+initiative).
Are you saying enchant a single shuriken with a bunch of stuff? Why couldn't you just to that with an arrow? Or if for whatever reason that does't work, why would you need to be proficient with it?
And eager only works on melee weapons, so that is out. Though you can make an argument that an arrow can be a melee weapon,with acts essentially like a 1-time use dagger, you can't even try that with a shuriken. And you have to be wielding the weapon for eager to work, not simply possessing it.

[gomipile]

The most useful thing I can think of is buying a bunch of Spell Storing shuriken, which are fairly cheap for what they do. 160g to store a level 3 spell at any caster level is pretty nice compared to, say, a scroll which is 375g for a level 3 at caster level 5.

Combine all that with the fact that, as mentioned already, they are used by themselves without the need to be loaded into a larger weapon, and they're pretty nice.

[Mystify]

The most useful thing I can think of is buying a bunch of Spell Storing shuriken, which are fairly cheap for what they do. 160g to store a level 3 spell at any caster level is pretty nice compared to, say, a scroll which is 375g for a level 3 at caster level 5.

Combine all that with the fact that, as mentioned already, they are used by themselves without the need to be loaded into a larger weapon, and they're pretty nice.

You can't put spell storing on a ranged weapon.Even if you could, you have to be wielding it to activate the spell, and you aren't weilding it anymore when you have thrown it. Again, you could argue for allowing arrows, and then stabbing people with them like daggers, but that is very tenuous, and shurikens don't even have that argument.
I'm still not seeing anything you could do with shuriken that you couldn't do with arrows.

[gomipile]

You can't put spell storing on a ranged weapon.

You should specify that this is RAI. RAW, spell storing does work with ranged weapons. Many enchantments state explicitly in their rules text that they are melee only. Spell storing is not one of those enchantments.

[Mystify]

You should specify that this is RAI. RAW, spell storing does work with ranged weapons. Many enchantments state explicitly in their rules text that they are melee only. Spell storing is not one of those enchantments.
Check the tables. Yes, text overrides the tables, but the text is silent on the point, whilst the tables do make a statement.
And even if you can do it, the whole "if the wielder desires" clause means it does nothing on a ranged weapon, as you are no longer wielding it when it strikes the target.

[jimobofo]

I let my psion player carry a bag of shuriken to throw with telekinesis. Works out fairly well, but I'm a nice DM.

[gomipile]

Check the tables. Yes, text overrides the tables, but the text is silent on the point, whilst the tables do make a statement.
And even if you can do it, the whole "if the wielder desires" clause means it does nothing on a ranged weapon, as you are no longer wielding it when it strikes the target.

The word "wield" is used in the description of some abilities listed as ranged weapon abilities(such as holy, axiomatic, etc.) And the tables of ranged and melee special abilities are inclusive lists. I haven't seen anything which proves that those tables are exclusive as well.

[Studoku]

Shiruken are decent if you can get your damage from somewhere else- such as sneak attack. I'm not sure what a cleric can do with this though.

[ericgrau]

Thrown weapons are the best level 1 to ~7 backup range option. Shuriken is probably the best of these. All thrown weapons are lousy primary options. The reason is because a composite bow is a very expensive way to get str to ranged damage at those levels. Thus thrown weapons and slings make a better backup ranged weapon than a bow for melee characters. The reason why shurikens are better than other thrown weapons in spite of doing 2 less damage is because they are easier to make masterwork or magical. The +1 to hit is break even vs. the damage lost and once you get magical enchants it's all gravy. At 1/50th the cost of a once per combat re-usable magic weapon, it will always be the far cheaper option even after throwing shurikens for multiple combats. On top of that you can full attack without quick draw.

Yeah, the range increment makes javelins and darts a close contender over MW shurikens at low levels. But a 360 gp shocking distant shuriken is still a much better deal than a 8000 gp shocking javelins even after multiple combats.

On a pure ranged character who can blow gold on a nice bow, throwing weapons are pretty useless unless you get a PrC for it.

[deuxhero]

Were Shuriken Stormlord weapons?

Granted, Stormlord has a lot of junk feats as requirements.

[Mystify]

The word "wield" is used in the description of some abilities listed as ranged weapon abilities(such as holy, axiomatic, etc.) And the tables of ranged and melee special abilities are inclusive lists. I haven't seen anything which proves that those tables are exclusive as well.
Everytime I try to use spellstoring arrows I get a storm of objections and "You can't do that!", even when I am trying to use them as melee weapons.

But anyways, yes, holy does say weild. You take a negative level while wielding it. However, you are not wielding it after it has left your hand. Spell storing specifies that you must be wielding it at the time the weapon hits the target, which is not true with a thrown weapon.

[Daftendirekt]

So, I'm fairly certain the only PrC out there that specifically requires Shuriken proficiency (and WHY it did I have no idea) is the 3.0 Dweomerkeeper. This class was updated to 3.5 in a Complete Divine web enhancement (http://www.quickfinger.com/~joe/More_Divinity.pdf), and that shuriken proficiency is one of the things gotten rid of.

[Soranar]

Shuriken can be flurried (flurry of blows monk ability)

since flurry does not require DEX (like rapid shot) and stacks with rapid shot, it can be an ok choice

obviously this entails a monk dip (which earns you the proficiency and flurry of blows)

being a thrown weapon, shuriken have no limit on how much STR bonus they receive (unlike arrows from a bow) so if your character is really strong, a thrown weapon is a decent choice

for a non caster character, shurikens make decent master thrower weapons as they are subject to palm throw (double the number of projectiles) and other such feats (which makes their attack rolls touch attacks)

Note that the palm throw trick does not work with a high STR bonus as you don't get your STR bonus to damage on palm throws

in the end though, casting spells is usually far superior to throwing weapons so i wouldn't bother with that PrC if I were you

[Axier]

If you want to go by 3.0 rules, then you can throw three of them as a single attack :P

Hello sneak attack x3!

Might be why they removed that.

[Socratov]

you could make shurikens of healing, dealing 1 dmg and healing a lot more, you could throw them and actually heal people at a distance... (i think i saw a trick for that somewhere...)

[Psyren]

I'm with Mystify - spell-storing is on the melee table, not the ranged one.

@OP: Monk dip for proficiency and flurry seems the way to go.

[awa]

even in 3.0 sneak attack only applied to one of the shuriken, i liked in with rangers favored enemy and two weapon throwing

[ahenobarbi]

Thanks... looks like I'll just pay feat tax and never use shurikens. Anyway I got an idea how shuriken could be useful. Well it's cheaper to put magics on it. So I if could get

* +1
* morphing (+1)
* eager (+1)
* skillfull (+2)
* aurorum (+4000 gp)
* sizing (+5000 gp)

shuriken it would cost

0.1 (base shuriken price)
+ 50 000/50 = 1 000 (+5 enchantments)
+ 9 000/50 = 180 (fixed-cost enchantments)

I could size & morph it and use it as eager skilfull aurorum spiked chain for 1180.1 gp. I don't think my DM will allow this though =_=

[Cieyrin]

Were Shuriken Stormlord weapons?

Granted, Stormlord has a lot of junk feats as requirements.

Stormlord was all about the Javelins, not other thrown weapons.

[Yora]

Thanks for saying it's useless... damn why they even made weapon so weak?

Because the actual real world weapon is very weak. In a way, it's not even a weapon. More like a poison delivery tool or a distraction device. It is incapable of causing any serious injury except for one in a million throws that hit the eye or pierce an artery in the neck. However, a sharp piece of metal being thrown in your face still makes you jump in reflex, which may provide an attacker with the half-second he needs to bring an actual weapon to bear.

[ahenobarbi]

Because the actual real world weapon is very weak. In a way, it's not even a weapon. More like a poison delivery tool or a distraction device. It is incapable of causing any serious injury except for one in a million throws that hit the eye or pierce an artery in the neck. However, a sharp piece of metal being thrown in your face still makes you jump in reflex, which may provide an attacker with the half-second he needs to bring an actual weapon to bear.

The problem is they get real-world like weaknesses (well.. Id' say they should just deal 1 dmg, not d2) but don't have real-world like strengths (like easier do deliver poison).

Also there are many poor weapons, but they didn't make it to d&d (because they are so poor no one would use them). I wonder why they did include shuriken.

[ericgrau]

since flurry does not require DEX (like rapid shot) and stacks with rapid shot, it can be an ok choice
TWF + ITWF could also combine well with shurikens, especially on melee TWF who want backup shurikens without too much additional feat investment. I wouldn't do all 3 at once though because the penalties get too big.

EDIT @ V: RAW gives shurikens a +4 to sleight of hand to conceal, even better than a dagger's +2.

[awa]

far as i know the only real world strength of shurikens is their small and cheap and it has that. (although a bonus to slight of hand to hide them would be more then fair)

[ahenobarbi]

The other is you can't hit with blunt side.

[Mystify]

even in 3.0 sneak attack only applied to one of the shuriken, i liked in with rangers favored enemy and two weapon throwing

There is no such rule in 3.5. Generally, you can get precision damage once per attack role, and you are still making an attack role for every weapon.

[Cieyrin]

There is no such rule in 3.5. Generally, you can get precision damage once per attack role, and you are still making an attack role for every weapon.

Actually, it rears its head in Manyshot, so it's basically a case-by-case basis.

[Mystify]

Actually, it rears its head in Manyshot, so it's basically a case-by-case basis.
Manyshot proves my point. It is 1 attack roll, you get precision damage once. You take improved manyshot, you make separate attack rolls, and can get precision damage on each one.