Help --- or moral support?

[Augulus]

Hey everyone!

So, I'm playing in a group that's about to start a campaign, and I decided to go with human barbarian this time (we're starting at level 1). We're definitely a low-optimization group, and we stick mostly to the PhB and DMG. So far the party includes:

1. Myself (human barbarian)
2. Halfling rogue
3. human sorcerer
4. human wizard

I was thinking of branching outside of the PhB to something a little different, but I'm not sure where to start. Any ideas on how to bring some extra fun to a hack-n-smash class? Flavor-wise, I'm playing him as a "noble warrior" type, rather than an unintelligent brute.

As I'll probably end up taking most of the damage, so defensive ideas wins extra cookies :smallwink:

[Azoth]

Make him goliath (RoS), take the sprit lion totem ACF (either CC or CW) or wolf totem (ua), take a fighter2 dip, take exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain, combat expertise, improved trip, and combat reflexes. Will only take until level 4 (ecl5 without buyback) to come online solid base trick that can be expanded on or a backup. Basics is any humanoid of medium/large size that gets within 10ft of you provokes an AoO, you use it to trip him, thanks to improved trip you get to another attack if you succeed. Being a goliath lets you weild a large spiked chain and when coupled with imp trip and powerful build you have ATLEAST a +10 to the check. I like to couple it with improved disarm. Good team build, allows protection of squishies, and allows you to be noble in the sense that you have options to make an opponent helpless and offer them to surrender.

If you can't finagle goliath...then orc or human work decently as long as a friendly caster can spare an enlarge person every now and again.

About the only "noble" path i can think of. Frenzied Berserker, bear warrior/warshaper, rune scarred berserker, frost rager, fist of the forest, champion of Icanneverrememberhowtospellthatname, and most other barbarian PRCs tend to like RAWR SMASH WITH POWER ATTACK FOR X7 DAMAGE...ME ORC!

[gorfnab]

Take a few levels of Crusader from Tome of Battle if you can. It can be extremely defensive, it can heal, and it can tank. It also works great with the "noble warrior" theme.

[Augulus]

Thanks for the quick replies!

I'll be sure to check out crusader. That sounds pretty interesting.

As for tripping goes, I may give it a try. I'm probably not going to be optimizing (as no one else is in the party) so I might just go for it with as a human without all the totems, etc. But thanks for the input!

[Ryulin18]

A fun build that isn't amazingly cheesy is to NOT get pounce, meaning you still have 40 ft move. Sacrifice 1hp/level for +10ft move. at 50ft move you gain +8 to jump, and can jump 40 ft!

You will have power attack @ 1st if you aren't insane. This leads to your 6th level feat. It will be LEAP ATTACK (Complete adventurer) because it is awesome if you are carrying the biggest weapon you can. Who can turn down 3x damage after you have calculated the power attack.

Now use Cityscape's web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) with its AMAZING list of Barbarian stuff.

Instantly lose ride for tumble - You're now awesome.

Street Fighter @ 7th level! This makes you a charging, jumping, walloping MACHINE!
Improved crit, turning on a charge, charge through allies, multi square charge cleaving! and all you lose it Damage Reduction!

[Ryulin18]

I'm quoting myself!

A quick example for this is to power attack for 6 (level 6 is when you leap attack), with a 2 handed dwarven war axe (1d10), throw in the leap attack and show you how much damage you clout for.

6 = 6
6 = 6 x 2 = 12 for two handed
6 = (6 x 2) x 3 = 36 with leap attack
You end with 1d10+STR.5+36+Items

say you are using something meatier, like the minotaur war hammer with it's x4 crit on a 19-20 (18-20 with street fighter level 7).

7 = 7
7 = 7 x 2 = 14 for two handing the weapon
7 = (7 x 2) x 3 = 42 for leap attacking two handed
7 = ((7 x 2) x 3) x 4 = 168 on a crit

so on a crit that's 4d12 + STR.5 x4 + 168 + Item bonuses x 4
Also known as instant meat glue!

[Ryulin18]

So on a crit that's 4d12 + STR.5 x4 + 168 + Item bonuses x 4

My old Barbarian who used this was awesome. Say you roll average on this crit.

damage rolls = 24
Strength of 22 (+6) = +9 x 4 = 36
Power attack totalling +168
+2 axe = +8

On a perfectly average crit roll...236 damage.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Make him goliath (RoS), take the sprit lion totem ACF (either CC or CW) or wolf totem (ua), take a fighter2 dip, take exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain, combat expertise, improved trip, and combat reflexes. Will only take until level 4 (ecl5 without buyback) to come online solid base trick that can be expanded on or a backup. Basics is any humanoid of medium/large size that gets within 10ft of you provokes an AoO, you use it to trip him, thanks to improved trip you get to another attack if you succeed. Being a goliath lets you weild a large spiked chain and when coupled with imp trip and powerful build you have ATLEAST a +10 to the check. I like to couple it with improved disarm. Good team build, allows protection of squishies, and allows you to be noble in the sense that you have options to make an opponent helpless and offer them to surrender.

If you do this, take the Goliath Barbarian substitution level at 1 which makes you legitimately large when you rage (extending your effective reach with the spiked chain to 20 ft).

Remember also that, while probably not the stated purpose of the designers, you can stack Lion and Wolf totem (because the class features they give up are mutually exclusive). I mean, technically this was probably meant to be such that Wolf Totem barbarians get Fast Movement as part of their progression, and thus there was no need to change it, but...

Warblade is a good jumping-off point for this build once you get all the basics worked out. A dip at level 5 allows you to grab Steel Wind, for example, which, as a standard action, lets you hit two creatures (which you can make trip attempts against), and if you trip both, you then get to attack both with a -4 to their AC.

[Augulus]

A fun build that isn't amazingly cheesy is to NOT get pounce, meaning you still have 40 ft move. Sacrifice 1hp/level for +10ft move. at 50ft move you gain +8 to jump, and can jump 40 ft!

You will have power attack @ 1st if you aren't insane. This leads to your 6th level feat. It will be LEAP ATTACK (Complete adventurer) because it is awesome if you are carrying the biggest weapon you can. Who can turn down 3x damage after you have calculated the power attack.

Now use Cityscape's web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) with its AMAZING list of Barbarian stuff.

Instantly lose ride for tumble - You're now awesome.

Street Fighter @ 7th level! This makes you a charging, jumping, walloping MACHINE!
Improved crit, turning on a charge, charge through allies, multi square charge cleaving! and all you lose it Damage Reduction!

Wow, leap attack is much better than I thought it would be. I must not have read it carefully, because I thought it changed the power attack multiplier to x3 instead of the standard x2.

Street Fighter is interesting as well, though sadly, it doesn't mesh with my backstory at all... Next time though, next time :smallsmile:

[Ryulin18]

Wow, leap attack is much better than I thought it would be. I must not have read it carefully, because I thought it changed the power attack multiplier to x3 instead of the standard x2.

Yeah, it's a very rough outline and not greatly explained. But you double or treble the damage AFTER calculations. Very, very nice. I'd say it's a 6th level necessary feat!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Take a few levels of Crusader from Tome of Battle if you can. It can be extremely defensive, it can heal, and it can tank. It also works great with the "noble warrior" theme.
...You heard "definitely a low-optimization group", right?

A fun build that isn't amazingly cheesy is to NOT get pounce, meaning you still have 40 ft move. Sacrifice 1hp/level for +10ft move. at 50ft move you gain +8 to jump, and can jump 40 ft!

...

*facepalm*

You've played in a super-op group (or were going to, not sure how that worked out), and you STILL think the ability to get a full attack with some mobility is cheesy?

[Bovine Colonel]

I'll be sure to check out crusader. That sounds pretty interesting.

It should be noted that while Crusader isn't overpowered or broken as such, it does sort of come pre-optimized. In a mid- to high-optimization group it works wonders, but it may be too powerful for a low-op group.

[Ryulin18]

You've played in a super-op group (or were going to, not sure how that worked out), and you STILL think the ability to get a full attack with some mobility is cheesy?

I don't know what his idea of cheesy is...Pounce is a high optimization for a melee class.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yeah, it's a very rough outline and not greatly explained. But you double or treble the damage AFTER calculations. Very, very nice. I'd say it's a 6th level necessary feat!

I'm about 103% certain that you don't go (PH*2)*3, but instead simply go PH*3.

This is from an older thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-40053.html):


Also, for what it's worth, I went back and forth with WotC Customer Service on the question. At first they gave me Matthew's numbers. Then they wrote me back a month later with this:



Hi there Person,

There was a revisit to the Leap Attack feat official answer, and it seems that I misunderstood what the answer was supposed to be. Because of our Help system, I'm able to send you this update and inform you how the rule is supposed to be properly adjudicated. This is passed down from the big dogs.

The 100% entry in the errata only applies to the second sentence. The 100% entry in the errata document was created to cut down on the confusion regarding the intent behind the word "double". They got rid of the "double" entry because it confused how it was supposed to work with other effects that "doubled" power attack damage.

The 3rd sentence is not changed. The "Tripled" entry is intended to replace the "doubled" entry mentioned in the Power Attack feat.

The final math behind the feat is as follows:

Power Attack + Leap Attack + one-handed weapon: -1 atk, +2 damage

Power Attack + Leap Attack + two-handed weapon: -1 atk, +3 damage

According to the errata, Leap Attack doesn’t add any more damage when used with a two-handed weapon than it does when used with a one-handed weapon. Either way, it is intended to add one more point of damage per point of attack penalty.

I'm very sorry for the confusion that has occurred regarding this issue. Hopefully this will help to solve any debates that have occurred due to the previous incorrect ruling on my part.

When coupled with Supreme Power Attack, the ratio would be: -1 atk, +7 damage.

Take Care and Good Gaming! :)

So as you can tell, not even WotC is sure what to do. I currently go with Arbitrarity's math. It's up to your individual DM to decide what math to go to with this, because WotC doesn't understand how to edit.

Here's Arbitrarity's math:


According to the way that's written, you actually don't quite multiply that way.

Normal PA: 1-1
2H PA: 2-1
Leap attack: 2-1
2H leap attack: 3-1
Supreme PA: 2-1
Supreme PA 2H: 4-1
Supreme PA leap attack: 4-1
Supreme PA 2H leap attack: 6-1

So PA for full is 120.

Remember, if you want to full PA, get shock trooper. Just don't kill your allies.

Even if you tripled the damage after accounting for 2H Power Attack, you would "triple" by adding two to the multiplier, per the wonky crit-stacking rules, for a total of x4. However, the stated purpose of Leap Attack is basically to increase the ratio by one. Your tripling of the Power Attack replaces the old modifier (x2 -> x3), not stacks with it (x2 -> x4). In neither case does Power Attack + Leap Attack mean x2 -> x6.

Perhaps someone better at optimization can explain this.

[Aliek]

I'm pretty sure leap attack was errata'ed for clarification, so that when using the feat you gain a +100% bonus to your power attack instead of messing with the multipliers already there. That would make x4 with a two-handed weapon, and x2 with a one-hander.

Edit: Still, check with your DM. I'd go with the x4, tough.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm pretty sure leap attack was errata'ed for clarification, so that when using the feat you gain a +100% bonus to your power attack instead of messing with the multipliers already there. That would make x4 with a two-handed weapon, and x2 with a one-hander.

Edit: Still, check with your DM. I'd go with the x4, tough.

That errata applies only to the second sentence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60771), which deals with one-handed weapons.

Which is pretty much exactly what I said the first time, but with the research.

Here's the original feat (broken down into sentences):


Leap Attack

You can combine a powerful charge and a mighty leap into one devastating attack.

Prerequisites: Jump 8 ranks, Power Attack.

Benefit: (1) You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. (2) If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. (3) If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

And the errata:


The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.

Here's sentence 2:


(2) If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat.

Sentence 3, which pertains to Leap Attacking with a two-handed weapon, remains unchanged.

[Averis Vol]

if you want to play him as a more Noble warrior type then the savage barbarian, you could take the ferocity rage varient that gives you dex instead of con and is fluffed as a burst of adrenaline rather then unleashed anger. other then that, meh im not much of an optimizer. i actually tried this same concept once and used two weapon fighting along with a khopesh and forked dagger. i would disarm, give them the chance to surrender, if they didnt and went after their weapon i'd trip, i'd again give them the chance to surrender. if they didn't....owell, i gave them two chances, right?

[Lhurgyof]

A quick example for this is to power attack for 6 (level 6 is when you leap attack), with a 2 handed dwarven war axe (1d10), throw in the leap attack and show you how much damage you clout for.

6 = 6
6 = 6 x 2 = 12 for two handed
6 = (6 x 2) x 3 = 36 with leap attack
You end with 1d10+STR.5+36+Items

say you are using something meatier, like the minotaur war hammer with it's x4 crit on a 19-20 (18-20 with street fighter level 7).

7 = 7
7 = 7 x 2 = 14 for two handing the weapon
7 = (7 x 2) x 3 = 42 for leap attacking two handed
7 = ((7 x 2) x 3) x 4 = 168 on a crit

so on a crit that's 4d12 + STR.5 x4 + 168 + Item bonuses x 4
Also known as instant meat glue!

Correct me if Im mistaken but if you get x2 power attack from two handed and x3 from a feat, itd only be x4 as per the stacking muptiplier rules?

Edit: Maybe next time I'll read more of the thread. :smallredface:

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't know what his idea of cheesy is...Pounce is a high optimization for a melee class.

Shock Trooper plus Leap Attack without Pounce is more powerful than neither of those with Pounce.

[Phaederkiel]

I also want to speak for crusader... this class is not only powerful (which can be easily mitigated if you choose the "wrong" maneuvers) but has that mechanic where you get your maneuvers at random.

That means, you never exactly know how your strategies have to look like,
which means you do never fight the same fight twice.
Adds excitement, adds lots of fun.

This mechanic alone leads to crusaders beeing not horribly overpowered, which is why true optimizers will try to get rid of it at some cost (and rob themselves of the fun of the unknown...)


__________
A good weapon to use is always the falchion. Two handed with an 18-20 crit range. Does a little less damage on average, but spreads this damage far better. Nothing is more disheartening than to crit a 10hp gobbo with 120 dmg with a 20 x 4 weapon...

[The Glyphstone]

The crusader mechanic is actually the most optimizer-favored recovery mechanism in the ToB, actually, because it takes no actions to perform in the valuable action economy. They also get relatively few maneuvers readied, so simply taking Extra Granted Maneuver means you'll always have at least one of your top 2-3 tactics, and all of them within a round or two.