Magic of Suckcarnum

[willpell]

So I finally decided to poke my nose into Magic of Incarnum a few days ago, and it immediately began to wound my soul. I can live with the fact that the rules are sloppily written, given that it was explicitly an attempt to do something unprecedented and thus the authors can be forgiven for not knowing what they were doing - it had never been done before. The races are even worse than those in the EPH, but they're fairly easily ignored, and the obnoxious terminology can be houseruled away. It takes a lot of chewing to get to the meat of the book, but there was just barely enough about it that was cool that I thought it would be worth the effort.

And so, I decided to make a sample character. And on my very first attempt at using these rules, I managed to screw up - out of the entire Incarnate soulmeld list, from which I could have two shaped at a time (I had at that point missed the fact that you're allowed to shape every soulmeld in the game, just not all at once, and thought you had to pick soulmelds for the entire level instead of just for the day), I managed to pick two which the rules say can't be used together - Bluesteel Bracers and Incarnate Weapon. Can someone explain to me why in holy heck the Incarnate Weapon occupies your Arms chakra? Shouldn't it be in, I dunno, your Hands??? (This is overlooking the fact that you have only one chakra for both hands, which I can forgive as an attempt to cut down on the dual-wielding cheese, or simply an act of simplicity since they already had ten chakras even with the doubling-up.)

What possible reason is there for wearing bracers to make it impossible to conjure up a weapon? I can see no reason other than the fact that getting an unremovable weapon and an inish bonus at the same time is fairly powerful - but that would be exactly why I picked them. Most of the soulmelds look situational at best (I should have expected this, really; the Giant has taken several shots at the book so presumably he was also unimpressed). Can anyone suggest any reason why I shouldn't houserule that the Weapon goes in the hands where it obviously belongs?

[MukkTB]

I don't know anything about Incarnum. However your complaint seems really weak as a support structure for such a confrontational tone. It seems that you should wind down your tone, or beef up your arguments.

[sonofzeal]

Obviously you can rule in any adjustments you want.

Incarnum as a whole is complex, with confusing terminology and an overwhelming number of options that are all available simultaneously. That said, it doesn't "suck". It's reasonably well balanced (except the Soulborn), and is fun to play once you've figured it out. In my book, that checks off the two biggest boxes. High learning curve is a relatively minor strike against it.

[Pilo]

To make it quick: The chakra slot are basicly almost the same as the magic item slots. Weapons are fo combat, combat is the bracers item magic slot.

If you want to complain then complains about the writers of DMG.

[Keneth]

I'll agree that the races are horrible, but honestly, most races past the ones found in core are. Slapping on a few spikes on a human's forearms is not good enough to constitute a new race as far as I'm concerned.

That said, Incarnate and Totemist are decent classes. They're not overly strong, so if you want to houserule them to be a little stronger, nothing is going to break.

[mattie_p]

You can only bind one soulmeld at a time to each chakra. However, my reading suggests that although you can shape several soulmelds that occupy the same chakra slot. (Incorrect, thanks, Yuki Akuma). You need the double chakra feat at character level 9 to accomplish this. You can switch essentia between the two as a swift action on your turn, but get the base benefits of both at all times, plus the benefits of any invested essentia.

At first level, you can't even bind a soulmeld to a chakra.

[Yuki Akuma]

You can only bind one soulmeld at a time to each chakra. However, my reading suggests that although you can shape several soulmelds that occupy the same chakra slot.

No you can't.

[mattie_p]

No you can't.

Oops, my bad, you are correct. I was going off memory, which was clearly flawed. And the OP did select two soulmelds that both occupy the arm slots (and only the arms). There are plenty of other nifty ones, though.

I've never played a meldshaper, played around with a couple of builds but was never really satisfied with them. I might have to make one as an NPC in a campaign coming up so I can get more familiar with the rules. Or one that at least dips meldshaper levels.

[AmberVael]

1) Azurin is actually pretty awesome. Bonus feat and essentia? Sure thing. It's like human, except instead of extra skill points, it increases your class features by a smidgen.

2) Incarnate weapon is arms instead of hands for purposes of balance. It makes the chakra bind take longer to get, as you open the arms chakra after hands. It would not be unfair to allow someone to shape the Incarnate Weapon soulmeld to their hands just normally though.

3) You only have one hands chakra in the same way you only have one glove slot for magic items, despite having two hands, or two ring slots, despite having ten fingers. It's not about the number of appropriate appendages, it is about mechanical balance, and from a flavor point, spiritual focal points.


Also, for mattie, the rule in question is on page 50, under Meld Selection. "Also, two soulmelds can't occupy the same chakra."

[mattie_p]

Vael, yeah, I found it earlier after Yuki pointed out I was incorrect. Which only reinforces the OP's point that MoI is badly written.

[Necroticplague]

1)
3) You only have one hands chakra in the same way you only have one glove slot for magic items, despite having two hands, or two ring slots, despite having ten fingers. It's not about the number of appropriate appendages, it is about mechanical balance, and from a flavor point, spiritual focal points.


You actually have two glove slots, one for each hand, its simply that most gloves state you have to wear both, so only certain gloves can be paired (ones that don't say you need both in a set, my personal combo is glove of the master strategist and glove of object reading). Same goes for boots,except i can't find any that don't say "You must be wearing both boots to get the effect" or something similar.Same goes for lenses.

[Starbuck_II]

You actually have two glove slots, one for each hand, its simply that most gloves state you have to wear both, so only certain gloves can be paired (ones that don't say you need both in a set, my personal combo is glove of the master strategist and glove of object reading). Same goes for boots,except i can't find any that don't say "You must be wearing both boots to get the effect" or something similar.Same goes for lenses.

Eyes of the Eagle in Core says you must wear both.

[gkathellar]

I'll agree that the races are horrible, but honestly, most races past the ones found in core are.

Duskling and Azurin are sweet, dude.

Also, core races? You mean the set that includes half-elves, elves and half-orcs?

[AmberVael]

You actually have two glove slots, one for each hand, its simply that most gloves state you have to wear both, so only certain gloves can be paired (ones that don't say you need both in a set, my personal combo is glove of the master strategist and glove of object reading). Same goes for boots,except i can't find any that don't say "You must be wearing both boots to get the effect" or something similar.Same goes for lenses.

Right here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemsOnTheBody)

Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It’s possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as twelve magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body.

A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which place on the body the item is worn.

One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands

One pair of boots or shoes on the feet

[Incorrect]

...
And on my very first attempt at using these rules, I managed to screw up ...
Guess what I did the first time I tried to ride a bike :smallconfused:

That said, the book is clearly for those of us who enjoy more complex rules. It is kinda hard to read, and confusing sometimes, but I think it's balanced and, more important, it's fun!

Others before me have addressed the rules.

[Person_Man]

Its actually a very balanced system. The math behind soulmeld bonuses works remarkably well. You can gain useful and interesting abilities at every level. And once you've decided what to shape and bind (an admittedly daunting endeavor) it very easy to manage your class abilities (everything is "always on" - you just have to reallocate essentia as needed).

It's just needlessly complex, and the good material isn't self evident. Some soulmelds are only useful in certain situations (which is why essentia can be reallocated) or at certain levels (which is why chakra binds aren't all available at level 1). Learning that takes time and practice, just like all of D&D, but more so.

[Psyren]

I think all the races are good. Azurins were already mentioned (note that they're also human subtype, for goodies like Able Learner and Chameleon.) Rilkans make strong Int-based classes because they treat all knowledge skills as trained, while Skarns get a pretty decent natural weapon at first-level. Most importantly though, no race in the book has a Con penalty, which puts you in good stead for meldshaping purposes.

I'll be the first to agree that it sorely needs an editor, but it's still among WotC's more solid departures from formua.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I agree with most of the posts here (save the OP).

It will take some learning, but it's actually a good system. There's nothing really badly broken (save the Soulborn and broken cheese like Psycarnum Infusion), and the bonuses accrue nicely.

It's exactly like people complaining that ToB is broken/overpowered because they haven't properly taken the time to read and comprehend what they just read.

[navar100]

My issue with Incarnum is that I find you are not given enough Essentia to do stuff. How much more is needed I don't know, but it needs more. Spending a feat just to get one point of Essentia is atrocious. I like the mechanical concept of Incarnum using Chakras and Soul Melds. I like the Essentia allocation resource model. I'm just not comfortable with how much you get.

What I find really cool is the Lost template. You can easily simulate a Zombie Apocalypse with it. Using Rage as the emotion, you get "28 Days Later".

[Psyren]

My issue with Incarnum is that I find you are not given enough Essentia to do stuff. How much more is needed I don't know, but it needs more. Spending a feat just to get one point of Essentia is atrocious. I like the mechanical concept of Incarnum using Chakras and Soul Melds. I like the Essentia allocation resource model. I'm just not comfortable with how much you get.

There are other sources of essentia like Soul Boon. But the main thing to keep in mind is that if they increase essentia without also increasing the capacity of the melds then it becomes a meaningless resource - you'll get to keep your favorite melds maxed and there's no longer any round-by-round tactical decision-making. And if they were to increase both essentia and essentia capacity, soon you would be out-skillmonkeying the skillmonkeys (which a properly-built Incarnate can already do), out-tanking the tanks in the case of Totemist etc.

If you want a ton of essentia, go Necrocarnate/Vivicarnate and kill some livestock, or get some temporary essentia for your first battle of the day. Once you start siphoning, the essentia stays available for 24 hours, so you can easily power up before bedtime and have it all available for your first fight of the next day.


What I find really cool is the Lost template. You can easily simulate a Zombie Apocalypse with it. Using Rage as the emotion, you get "28 Days Later".

That would be an interesting campaign - instead of a viral outbreak, you have the fantasy version i.e. a leak of emotional incarnum.

[T.G. Oskar]

I oddly had the same impression at first, but I find it's an acquired taste which grows as you keep reading it. At first, the departure from the strict formula of spells and psionics got me off, and the fluff was a bit senseless for the norm, but as I read it and got a bit deeper into other systems (maneuvers, binding), I found it refreshing, interesting, and pretty good after all.

Race-wise, Azurin is pretty awesome, because it's one of the few classes that grant a bonus feat and has no LA (much like Humans and Strongheart Halflings; in fact, they are considered humans, so you can rule they can get the stuff from Races of Destiny as if they were humans). Dusklings are also extremely good as a race for being one of the few LA +0 fey, for their boost in speed, AND for their extra essentia pool (if you work with it), not to mention two automatic languages (Sylvan isn't a very common language if you're on dungeons, but on the outsides...). I must agree that the Rilkan/Skarn thing is really silly (they're humans with the [Reptilian] subtype, yet they get no further traits than some scales or spines?), but a diligent read makes Skarns a pretty impressive race: they are a worthwhile +Str/LA +0 class, unlike the poor half-orcs which get nothing else (oh, maybe orc ancestry, but that doesn't qualify).

Class-wise, Incarnate and specifically Totemist are wonderful classes...though you need to digest the book a bit more to see the results. Incarnate can do a lot of things, and Totemist has not just a similar trend (they are like a Barbarian/Druid hybrid class considering how they behave) but can become a deadly melee character which can rival what a Wildshaped Druid can do. Soulborn, on the other hand, needs some help (and that's an understatement).

The introduction of Incarnum feats really brings out a lot on the feat system. Incarnum is one of the few systems which you can integrate to just about everything, since the more feats you get the more essentia you end up having. Few other systems have that degree of integration (maneuvers, binding, truenaming to an extent). Furthermore, the boosts are pretty decent if you can find a way to boost your essentia (Cobalt Power, Cobalt Rage, to an extent Sapphire Smite come to mind). AND, they draw out the full power of Psionics. Go read the Incarnum+Psionic feats.

I advice reading the book a bit more, and cast off that first impression you got by glancing through it with someone helping you understand it. It's really a pretty interesting system once you get to read it a bit further.

[Psyren]

Aren't there stuff for Reptiles in Serpent Kingdoms? So a Rilkan/Skarn might be able to pick something up there.

[Coidzor]

There's a couple of handbooks and reference guides around. They help cut through the clutter of the organization of the book, which is not the best. On the whole though, I'd say the system seemed highly enjoyable from all I've read.

One here by Shneekythelost. Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215723)

Sinfire Titan's Guide to Incarnum/Incarnum Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=576.0) (or at least he's the one who reposted it to the successor board)

Class Handbooks:
Incarnate (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=580.0)

Totemist (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=583.0).

[Person_Man]

My issue with Incarnum is that I find you are not given enough Essentia to do stuff. How much more is needed I don't know, but it needs more. Spending a feat just to get one point of Essentia is atrocious. I like the mechanical concept of Incarnum using Chakras and Soul Melds. I like the Essentia allocation resource model. I'm just not comfortable with how much you get.

In addition to the methods Psyren suggests, keep in mind that many soulmelds (especially Totemist soulmelds) don't really need essentia to be useful because they provide a Feat, continuous ability, or are generally used outside of combat. Impulse Boots (Uncanny Dodge/Evasion), Apparition Ribbon (Blind Fighting/Incorporeal Subtype), Shedu Crown (Immunity to Bull Rush/Telepathy), Threefold Mask of the Chimera (cannot be Flanked), Brood Keeper's Heart (Swarm template), Silvertongue Mask (Bluff & Diplomacy bonuses/Suggestion), and many others.

So your soulmeld and chakra bind selection is key - you want a good mix of ones that require essentia and ones that don't.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Aren't there stuff for Reptiles in Serpent Kingdoms? So a Rilkan/Skarn might be able to pick something up there.

By RAW, no.

There's a table listing everything that falls under the tag of Scalykind in FR. Which the Rilkan/Skarn are not on. A reasonable DM could easily houserule them in, though, and maybe even clear up the mystery of the mishtai (alternate name for the sarrukh?). Maybe they were a further expansion on the yuan-ti project...

[The-Mage-King]

By RAW, no.

There's a table listing everything that falls under the tag of Scalykind in FR. Which the Rilkan/Skarn are not on. A reasonable DM could easily houserule them in, though, and maybe even clear up the mystery of the mishtai (alternate name for the sarrukh?). Maybe they were a further expansion on the yuan-ti project...

NOPE. It's RAW.

Directly from the book:

The term scalykind includes all creatures with the reptilian
subtype[...]


Rilkan and Skarn are, surprise, "Humanoid (Reptilian)".

[Person_Man]

Yes, Rilkan and Skarn are Humanoid (Reptilian), which qualifies them as Scaleykind, which opens up access to certain feats.

Unfortunately, the are only a few feats which require that you be Scaleykindm and they're all garbage.

[Big Fau]

The biggest hurdle to cross in actually using Incarnum is often understanding how the hell it is supposed to work, but a close second is proper resource management. The book does not mention this, but you don't need to max out your Essentia investments in everything as Person_Man said.

Allocating your Chakra Binds properly is a huge issue. It takes planning and foresight, as some binds just aren't going to be useful in enough encounters to warrant using them. This is also an issue with the actual effects of some Chakra Binds: Some of them are just bad.

It's generally a good idea to look into the handbooks linked above before you actually try to play a meldshaper at all, and when you actually do you really should ask for help from one of the more experienced posters. Person_Man is fairly highly regarded with most things optimization-related, but he's as good as Sinfire is when it comes to general Incarnum questions.

That said, it really doesn't hurt to try and get ahold of Sinfire on BG. Check this thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1988.0) for the Incarnum Handbook's discussion thread. You might need to register though.

[Krotchrot]

If you want to look at some of the cool stuff Incarnum can bring about. Nothing says "Whaaaa" and having a DM throw a book at you when you can at level 1 have a +1 weapon that only gets stronger for free. Then I think by level 15 you can get a +5, again for free. Amongst some of the other cool benefits you can get for the Soulmelds, the Chakra's are just a nice icing on the cake.

[Wings of Peace]

Yes, Rilkan and Skarn are Humanoid (Reptilian), which qualifies them as Scaleykind, which opens up access to certain feats.

Unfortunately, the are only a few feats which require that you be Scaleykindm and they're all garbage.

Skarn do however, make for fun Black Blood Cultists.

[Yuki Akuma]

Race-wise, Azurin is pretty awesome, because it's one of the few classes that grant a bonus feat and has no LA (much like Humans and Strongheart Halflings; in fact, they are considered humans, so you can rule they can get the stuff from Races of Destiny as if they were humans).

This isn't a houserule, this is actually how the [Human] subtype works.

[AmberVael]

If you want to look at some of the cool stuff Incarnum can bring about. Nothing says "Whaaaa" and having a DM throw a book at you when you can at level 1 have a +1 weapon that only gets stronger for free. Then I think by level 15 you can get a +5, again for free. Amongst some of the other cool benefits you can get for the Soulmelds, the Chakra's are just a nice icing on the cake.

And by 'for free' you mean 'costing me 15 class levels and a portion of my (albeit recyclable) limited resources, as opposed the casting of one third level spell.' (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm) :smalltongue:

[T.G. Oskar]

Skarn do however, make for fun Black Blood Cultists.

You sure? I'd think Thayan Gladiators, because of what they bring to the table.


This isn't a houserule, this is actually how the [Human] subtype works.

Sure, but it's arguable for Able Learner and/or Chameleon, the same as the Aventi and the Vasharan (though much less ambiguous for Silverbrow Humans). All four are essentially humans with a twist: Incarnum-imbued humans, aquatic humans, innately-evil humans and dragon-blooded humans. Thus, you may figure if that holds more weight considering the particular restriction on the feat and the PrC.

[Necroticplague]

You sure? I'd think Thayan Gladiators, because of what they bring to the table.


Actually, I think if you tacked on the aquatic template, they wouldn't make half bad scaled horrors.

[Lans]

And by 'for free' you mean 'costing me 15 class levels and a portion of my (albeit recyclable) limited resources, as opposed the casting of one third level spell.' (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm) :smalltongue:
Ah, but at this level GMW only gives +4. :smalltongue:

[Hiro Protagonest]

My issue with Incarnum is that I find you are not given enough Essentia to do stuff. How much more is needed I don't know, but it needs more. Spending a feat just to get one point of Essentia is atrocious. I like the mechanical concept of Incarnum using Chakras and Soul Melds. I like the Essentia allocation resource model. I'm just not comfortable with how much you get.

Well, you can switch essentia around as a swift action, I believe. So you can change essentia investment from your skill boosters to your combat boosters.

And Bonus Essentia gives an extra two points.


Just because you haven't spent the time to fully understand the system doesn't mean it sucks. Totemist is tier 3. Incarnate is tier 4/3 (depending on how optimized it is). But soulborn is worse than a fighter, the fighter can just grab Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstep Boots) and steal its one good trick.

[Wings of Peace]

Actually, I think if you tacked on the aquatic template, they wouldn't make half bad scaled horrors.

Which goes well with Black Blood Cultist. :)

[Piggy Knowles]

Actually, I think if you tacked on the aquatic template, they wouldn't make half bad scaled horrors.

Actually, they already qualify for Scaled Horror - no tacking on of the aquatic template needed! My favorite grappling build is a skarn with a dip into Scaled Horror...


Race: Character must have either the aquatic or the reptilian subtype.

[Necroticplague]

Actually, they already qualify for Scaled Horror - no tacking on of the aquatic template needed! My favorite grappling build is a skarn with a dip into Scaled Horror...

I'm afb, but doesn't having a swim speed alleviate some prerequisites (I think ranks in swim)?

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm afb, but doesn't having a swim speed alleviate some prerequisites (I think ranks in swim)?

It requires either a swim speed or 5 ranks in swim (which is a class skill for Totemists).

It really is a pretty fantastic dip for a grapple-focused skarn. The only real downside is that your Improved Grab only works on creatures your size or smaller. (But Soul Manifester + Ardent/PsyWar fixes that problem neatly.)

[kiergon]

The most I´ve had as a player was playing a Hadozee Totemist.
I was grappling enemies I wasn´t supposed to grapple, like an elephant.
And by the end I was a huge Monkey with 3 heads, with breath weapon, a scaly tail and 4 arms, could throw spikes from my back and could take 1 and grapple the tarrasque. How´s that for awesome?
You will find that there is very little a huge four armed monkey cant grapple to death (I hated elementals, slimes and swarms).
And besides being a beast grappling, its fun being a monkey with peoples clothes and acting like a sir...gone bananas...
Its just mindless fun, being a Hadozee Totemist...ahh, because I was a totemist I outking konged King Kong, I grabbed a sorceress climbed her tower, was attacked by flying demonic gargoyles, and when it was time to flee, I just glided away ftw.

[Big Fau]

I'm afb, but doesn't having a swim speed alleviate some prerequisites (I think ranks in swim)?

Kraken Mantle can grant a Swim speed, but the ranks would be easier.

[eggs]

To be fair, the indexing and jargon do suck. A lot. Almost to the point of unusability. Without spreadsheets categorizing, sorting and qualifying the soulmelds by their functions, alignments, slots and bonus types, the system is a total pain in the ass.

For example, looking to crank the Trip bonus for your Totemist? Winter Wolves have the Trip ability, so maybe the Winter Mask will help? Nope. Worg Pelt? It has a nice bind, but no bonus modifiers. Totem Avatar has a lot of bonuses, so maybe it'll have something? Only on the defensive end, so nope. Eventually, your choice is either giving up or rereading every soulmeld individually (and finding Sphinx Claws, of all things, as the only applicable Totemist bonus - one which won't stack with the Worg bind).

But once you've penetrated the jargon, worked out its kinks and found an organizational system for the soulmelds, it gives some interesting mechanics to dabble with, every now and again.

The system doesn't permit an unbalanced offense (straightclassed Totemists' damage usually sit around that of a core Barbarian; Soulborns' damage sit around the Fighter's or Monk's; Incarnates' built-in offense is a ways below that, but UMD can cover the gaps), but with some nonstandard tricks like early-game flight and teleportation and a variety of temporary abilities like Telepathy and Blacklight effects.

So even though I don't actually disagree with the OP's main complaint (MoI is terrible as a rulebook), I'm going to say the rules themselves aren't bad, and overall, MoI is better than the recycled and regurgitated materials that make up 90% of WotC's publications.

EDIT:

It really is a pretty fantastic dip for a grapple-focused skarn. The only real downside is that your Improved Grab only works on creatures your size or smaller.
That's actually one of Scaled Horror's strengths. Most Improved Grabs only work against smaller creatures, per the MM description.

[Answerer]

Magic of Incarnum is not a well-written book.

Incarnum is an excellent subsystem.

Overall, despite point #1, Magic of Incarnum is almost certainly the third best-designed book that Wizards ever printed for 3.x (after Tome of Battle and Expanded Psionics Handbook, and the latter is debatable).

[Starbuck_II]

To be fair, the indexing and jargon do suck. A lot. Almost to the point of unusability. Without spreadsheets categorizing, sorting and qualifying the soulmelds by their functions, alignments, slots and bonus types, the system is a total pain in the ass.

But once you've penetrated the jargon, worked out its kinks and found an organizational system for the soulmelds, it gives some interesting mechanics to dabble with, every now and again.

Yeah, sometimes it seems random.
Don't get me started on Alignment and Incarnate avatar. Chaos is only good with archery apparently :smallsigh:

[TheGeckoKing]

In my experience, the book's name should of been Magic of Garbledcarnum (or THE BIG BLUE BOOK OF BLUE SOULS).

[Wings of Peace]

The most I´ve had as a player was playing a Hadozee Totemist.
I was grappling enemies I wasn´t supposed to grapple, like an elephant.
And by the end I was a huge Monkey with 3 heads, with breath weapon, a scaly tail and 4 arms, could throw spikes from my back and could take 1 and grapple the tarrasque. How´s that for awesome?
You will find that there is very little a huge four armed monkey cant grapple to death (I hated elementals, slimes and swarms).
And besides being a beast grappling, its fun being a monkey with peoples clothes and acting like a sir...gone bananas...
Its just mindless fun, being a Hadozee Totemist...ahh, because I was a totemist I outking konged King Kong, I grabbed a sorceress climbed her tower, was attacked by flying demonic gargoyles, and when it was time to flee, I just glided away ftw.

New build idea: The King Kong of Smack.

[Andreaz]

Incarnum is the Jazz to core d&d's pop rock... Takes a while to get a taste for it, but then it just keeps getting better \o/

[Ravens_cry]

It also has a fondness for the blues.

[sonofzeal]

To be fair, the indexing and jargon do suck. A lot. Almost to the point of unusability. Without spreadsheets categorizing, sorting and qualifying the soulmelds by their functions, alignments, slots and bonus types, the system is a total pain in the ass.
Please tell me you have said spreadsheets! While I like MoI in theory, I've never actually played it for precisely the reasons you mentioned. A good spreadsheet would help tremendously!

[Psyren]

Well, you can switch essentia around as a swift action, I believe. So you can change essentia investment from your skill boosters to your combat boosters.

Caveat: You can swap essentia freely between soulmelds and items, but essentia in feats and spells is "locked in" (for a day in the case of feats, and until you cast the spell in the case of spells.)


It also has a fondness for the blues.

:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:


Please tell me you have said spreadsheets! While I like MoI in theory, I've never actually played it for precisely the reasons you mentioned. A good spreadsheet would help tremendously!

Here's one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.125)

[willpell]

I've been absorbing the book for several days, and while my previous objections stand, they constitute most of what I have against the book, and the rest is gradually growing on me. I still don't think it's worth anything out of the box; I'd never let a player use any of the races or classes as-written. But these are inconveniences worth the effort of curing; the basic concept of (as far as I can tell, being a dabbler rather than a full-time otaku) essentially doing a D&D take on MyHIME, SCRYed, Knights of the Zodiac, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and arguably Green Lantern and Thor, it's a good idea and just not ideally executed.

Apparently several people thought that my complaint about the races was that they weren't powerful enough or something; I should have refrained from assuming this crowd would overlap enough with the Wotco forums for you to all know me, in which case you would not have made this mistake. I am basically never talking about mechanics; when I say something sucks or is awesome, I mean in terms of "flavor" or "fluff". And the flavor/fluff in MoI is horrible almost without exception, which is why I don't plan to let a single thing in the book into any of my campaigns without being completely reskinned. I got into reading the thing in the first place because of the Giant's comments in Dragon Tails, and Belkar had a point - it's pretty hard to figure out what the different Feats do when THEY ALL HAVE BLUE IN THE NAME. For that matter, how exactly did the authors decide souls were blue? And if incarnum is the substance of souls, why not just call it "soulstuff", so everyone would know what you're talking about without having to explain what incarnum is? This is before we get into the absurd number of compound words ending in "-carnum". "Soulmeld", "Meldshaper", "Essentia" - they all make me cringe, and I'm changing them all for my campaigns. ("Chakra" irritates me a little because it's not a proper use of the term, the actual chakras being seven in number and all along the spine, but it's close enough that I can let that one slide until I have a better term to suggest; after all I have no particular plans to use the Kundalini and similar tantric concepts in my game - for the moment - and so have no better use for the word, so I can put off figuring out a better one.)

The races are the absolute worst - even more absurd than Raptorans, Illumians, or the weirdoes in the EPH (though admittedly Maenads have grown on me, and Elans might have been cool if they'd tried a little harder; the only one which I am still completely unable to tolerate is the Xeph). "Azurins" are literally just humans with permanent blue eyeshadow who are all alignment zealots; if you go with the idea that incarnum is related to souls, then I think "Soulborn" makes perfect sense as the racename rather than the name of their favored class, but honestly I wouldn't regard them as a race at all. I'd rather they were just humans who took a random incarnum feat and called it a day; I'd rather give up one feat than four skill points anyway. Meanwhile, the Rilkan/Skarn thing reads like something from one of the authors' campaigns which he absolutely insisted on shoehorning into the canon; I strongly dislike random near-humans who are made not-human just for the sake of doing so, and by that yardstick these two are even worse than the Githyanki. The whole thing just smacks of self-indulgent lameness, and only gets worse when they're also straightjacketed as to alignment; exactly what do the authors of D&D books have against the idea of someone playing an actual CHARACTER, with a personality instead of a mandated behavioral template? (And all this is entirely apart from the fact that Rilkans look like they have throat cancer and Skarns appear likely to stab themselves every time they lie down to sleep.) The Dusklings are the ones that burn me the most, though, because they're fey. Of all possible creature types, fey above any other should never be wasted on anything that doesn't have strong mythological roots; with legions of faerie legends from all over the world, there is no excuse for coming up with a race of fey who are purely made up, with the excuse that they are primally elementally tied to the other thing you also just made up. The idea of a race with a speed bonus from essentia and a shamanic tradition is pretty cool; if they were monstrous humanoids or aberrations and had a reasonable name, I'd be okay with them. But they look dumb, they have a name that isn't a real name (it'd be like if humans started calling themselves "hairoids" or "pinkonians"), and they have no business being fey when they don't come from a faerie tale.

As to the classes, both Incarnate and Soulborn are in the alignment straightjacket, and that is enough to infuriate me right there. Totemist meanwhile, I like the concept of a class that fuses with aspects of spirit patrons to gain power, but it drives me up the wall that they decided to only use Magical Beasts in this fashion, and I'll have to rewrite their entire meld list before I'll be able to stand using the class, though I think it'll be worth the effort. I haven't looked at the prestige classes in much detail, and don't know if I care enough to ever bother; I haven't looked at the spells at all. I skimmed the chapter on how to integrate incarnum into the campaign and found few of the ideas compelling, but it probably had some positive effect on me given how I've gradually come around to an intention to use the system once it's been sufficiently improved. Finally, the incarnum-themed monsters are mostly not very impressive to me, but the Soulforged Constructs alone are enough to convince me to make something of an effort, and the Caller in Darkness or whatever it was called and the Incarnum Golem are also pretty awesome.

Like I said before, the book was an effort to do something really different, and it succeeded in that respect; its awkwardness is forgivable. But we've gotten way off the subject of my original question, so I'll restate it in simple terms: is there any reason why I shouldn't houserule that Incarnate Weapon occupies the hands? Really, the ability to add +2 to weapon damage at 2nd level doesn't seem that absurd, at least not compared to having a magic weapon that can't be permanently stolen or destroyed in the first place. I don't really care about the chakra binds that much, there's more than enough stuff in the high levels of D&D and my concern is mostly with coming up with ways to make the first few levels less annoying, so just ruling that Incarnate Weapon has no chakra bind wouldn't bother me in the slightest, as long as I get to use it along with the other most combat-relevant meld. (The sample character in question took Improved Initiative as a feat entirely so I could amuse myself with a +7 to initiative off of a Dex of 1. I'll be the first to admit I wasn't trying very hard, but still, there are worse plans for surviving the early levels than to just be the first one to get in a hit.)

[hiryuu]

I've been absorbing the book for several days, and while my previous objections stand, they constitute most of what I have against the book, and the rest is gradually growing on me. I still don't think it's worth anything out of the box; I'd never let a player use any of the races or classes as-written. But these are inconveniences worth the effort of curing; the basic concept of (as far as I can tell, being a dabbler rather than a full-time otaku) essentially doing a D&D take on MyHIME, SCRYed, Knights of the Zodiac,

I can see that, but I doubt the designers had even heard of those things.


JoJo's Bizarre Adventure

No, Jojo's is more like "pick a spell, just one. You can do that at-will now" and is probably better represented by the Psionics system, considering that Stands aren't real and are manifestations of the user's psychic power, and combat between Stands is straight up old fashioned psionic combat except with icons.


Apparently several people thought that my complaint about the races was that they weren't powerful enough or something; I should have refrained from assuming this crowd would overlap enough with the Wotco forums for you to all know me, in which case you would not have made this mistake. I am basically never talking about mechanics; when I say something sucks or is awesome, I mean in terms of "flavor" or "fluff". And the flavor/fluff in MoI is horrible almost without exception, which is why I don't plan to let a single thing in the book into any of my campaigns without being completely reskinned. I got into reading the thing in the first place because of the Giant's comments in Dragon Tails, and Belkar had a point - it's pretty hard to figure out what the different Feats do when THEY ALL HAVE BLUE IN THE NAME. For that matter, how exactly did the authors decide souls were blue? And if incarnum is the substance of souls, why not just call it "soulstuff", so everyone would know what you're talking about without having to explain what incarnum is? This is before we get into the absurd number of compound words ending in "-carnum". "Soulmeld", "Meldshaper", "Essentia" - they all make me cringe, and I'm changing them all for my campaigns. ("Chakra" irritates me a little because it's not a proper use of the term, the actual chakras being seven in number and all along the spine, but it's close enough that I can let that one slide until I have a better term to suggest; after all I have no particular plans to use the Kundalini and similar tantric concepts in my game - for the moment - and so have no better use for the word, so I can put off figuring out a better one.)


"Chakra" is just silly designer code for "Magic item slot." D&D also uses the terms "alchemy," "paladin," and every monster name ever incorrectly, so really. Don't worry, you're not alone, Incarnum fluff is freakin' awful. System is so useful, though. Shape Soulmeld is just about the best feat ever.


The races are the absolute worst - even more absurd than Raptorans, Illumians, or the weirdoes in the EPH (though admittedly Maenads have grown on me, and Elans might have been cool if they'd tried a little harder; the only one which I am still completely unable to tolerate is the Xeph). "Azurins" are literally just humans with permanent blue eyeshadow who are all alignment zealots; if you go with the idea that incarnum is related to souls, then I think "Soulborn" makes perfect sense as the racename rather than the name of their favored class, but honestly I wouldn't regard them as a race at all. I'd rather they were just humans who took a random incarnum feat and called it a day; I'd rather give up one feat than four skill points anyway. Meanwhile, the Rilkan/Skarn thing reads like something from one of the authors' campaigns which he absolutely insisted on shoehorning into the canon; I strongly dislike random near-humans who are made not-human just for the sake of doing so, and by that yardstick these two are even worse than the Githyanki. The whole thing just smacks of self-indulgent lameness, and only gets worse when they're also straightjacketed as to alignment; exactly what do the authors of D&D books have against the idea of someone playing an actual CHARACTER, with a personality instead of a mandated behavioral template? (And all this is entirely apart from the fact that Rilkans look like they have throat cancer and Skarns appear likely to stab themselves every time they lie down to sleep.) The Dusklings are the ones that burn me the most, though, because they're fey. Of all possible creature types, fey above any other should never be wasted on anything that doesn't have strong mythological roots; with legions of faerie legends from all over the world, there is no excuse for coming up with a race of fey who are purely made up, with the excuse that they are primally elementally tied to the other thing you also just made up. The idea of a race with a speed bonus from essentia and a shamanic tradition is pretty cool; if they were monstrous humanoids or aberrations and had a reasonable name, I'd be okay with them. But they look dumb, they have a name that isn't a real name (it'd be like if humans started calling themselves "hairoids" or "pinkonians"), and they have no business being fey when they don't come from a faerie tale.

Races are pretty bad. Except for Azurin, which is win on a stick. Dusklings are described as metal-furred fox people then drawn as malnourished smurfs for some reason. Skarns can, get this, fold up their arm spikes and aren't in more danger of poking themselves when asleep than molochs (http://www.biology.ucr.edu/people/faculty/Garland/Moloch_horridus_by_Ted_Garland_1480.jpg) are. Rilkans don't just look horrible, they are horrible. Haven't really read the flavor in so long because I rewrite everything every time I make a new setting that I forgot how bad it was.


they have no business being fey when they don't come from a faerie tale.

*scratch head* Wait, what?

You know fae are, like, primal elemental forces associated with the inevitability of fate, right? "Faerie tales" are called such because they're about fae, not the other way around, much like how hurricane damage doesn't cause hurricanes. But that's a whole other discussion, I think.


As to the classes, both Incarnate and Soulborn are in the alignment straightjacket, and that is enough to infuriate me right there.

Agreed. Never used that rule in the first place.


Totemist meanwhile, I like the concept of a class that fuses with aspects of spirit patrons to gain power, but it drives me up the wall that they decided to only use Magical Beasts in this fashion, and I'll have to rewrite their entire meld list before I'll be able to stand using the class, though I think it'll be worth the effort.

Totemist is a death machine as written. Insert Essentia, get ridiculous amounts of attacks. You could probably just re-flavor each meld whenever someone is using it to fit their personal beliefs.

Soulborn is poo.


Like I said before, the book was an effort to do something really different, and it succeeded in that respect; its awkwardness is forgivable. But we've gotten way off the subject of my original question, so I'll restate it in simple terms: is there any reason why I shouldn't houserule that Incarnate Weapon occupies the hands? Really, the ability to add +2 to weapon damage at 2nd level doesn't seem that absurd, at least not compared to having a magic weapon that can't be permanently stolen or destroyed in the first place. I don't really care about the chakra binds that much, there's more than enough stuff in the high levels of D&D and my concern is mostly with coming up with ways to make the first few levels less annoying, so just ruling that Incarnate Weapon has no chakra bind wouldn't bother me in the slightest, as long as I get to use it along with the other most combat-relevant meld. (The sample character in question took Improved Initiative as a feat entirely so I could amuse myself with a +7 to initiative off of a Dex of 1. I'll be the first to admit I wasn't trying very hard, but still, there are worse plans for surviving the early levels than to just be the first one to get in a hit.)

THERE'S THE PROBLEM!

Incarnate magic is REALLY BAD at attacking and damage, unless you're a totemist. Your job is not to walk up and smack dudes, that's crazy talk. You're playing it like a fighter and it's a rogue. Try shaping Acid Spittle if you really MUST do damage.

Incarnates are skill monkeys. Skill monkeys that can change their skill list on a whim. Because it's Tuesday. My GM still has nightmares of the low level Spellthief with incarnate feats and +32 Sleight of Hand.

[Piggy Knowles]

But we've gotten way off the subject of my original question, so I'll restate it in simple terms: is there any reason why I shouldn't houserule that Incarnate Weapon occupies the hands?

Not really, no. It'll make the Incarnate slightly more front-loaded, but I agree that hands makes somewhat more sense than arms. (I personally think it was a mistake to try to make a physical weapon, that you can pick up and drop, into a soulmeld in the first place.)

[AmberVael]

And the flavor/fluff in MoI is horrible almost without exception, which is why I don't plan to let a single thing in the book into any of my campaigns without being completely reskinned.

While I imagine that some will disagree with that assertion, I tend to agree with you. (Making magic items out of souls? Wtf? Kinda bizarre and silly, if you ask me).

I do, however, dearly love the system. As such, I've reflavored it multiple times, once in particular for my campaign setting. There's a link in my signature, if you're interested- but the explanation there kind of depends on you know the rest of the campaign setting, so I'll give a short explanation of my two favorite refluffs here.

(Just for clarity, I will use the terms as presented in the book in my explanations, like incarnum, soulmeld, and what have you, but I'd never use them if I actually implemented such a refluff- it's just to help identify what I'm talking about to someone who doesn't know the refluff).


1) Wild Flower Style
If you're not aware, Wild Flower is a character from the game Jade Empire. A young girl who died in a flood, she was given a new chance at life by becoming a host to two spiritual forces, the heavenly guardian Chai Ka, and the demonic spirit Ya-Zhen. Both are able to manifest through her in an attempt to carry out their desires in the world, using her as a conduit with which to directly act on the material plane.

This was the inspiration for one of my incarnum refluffs. The melds of the incarnum classes are the abilities and natural qualities of a supernatural entity, manifesting through the character. This makes it rather similar to Binding from Tome of Magic, but it has a fairly different quality to it- the character does not have to have made a pact, or purposefully set out to become a host to such an entity. They do not have to magical skill, or even real understanding of their situation. All they have to do is be well suited to become a conduit, and become a host to a single spiritual entity.

However, such an entity cannot perfectly express themselves through a mortal host. Therefore, reinvesting essentia, and shaping different soulmelds become ways to express different aspects and powers of a much mightier entity. At one point in a fight, the sword of a possessing archangel might be manifest more strongly, while on a later day, it might assert its wings.

Under such a system, something like an Azurin also makes a great deal of sense- they are human, except for one distinct difference, namely that for whatever reason, they are more suited to being a spiritual host.

With this system, a character might play as host to multiple entities, or only one, much more vast one, and what precisely they are host to can vary wildly. As such, I would allow specific players to refluff each soulmeld, describing how it fits with the entity they have chosen. A helm might become a halo, a set of horns, or in fact a regal crown denoting royalty.


2) Passing Into Death
The Triad campaign setting is based heavily around the three gods, and what they embody. There is Kalah, who is the mother earth, generator of life, Rahk, the god of death and nobility, he holds sway over all, and Ishaman, ruler of the way between and magic. Each plays their part in a continual cycle of life, death, and rebirth, letting souls reincarnate and fade.

Yet, there are always echoes and memories of what came before in the underworld, and a treasure trove within Rahk's domain. It is this power that the necromancers of my setting, the Domas Amat, draw upon.

Through contemplation of the cycle of life and death (represented by the rising and setting of sun and moon), the Domas Amat learn to suspend their life for short periods of time, and temporarily enter the underworld in spiritual form, conversing with those passed there, and gaining blessings from ancient heroes and monsters. When the once again draw back to life, they bring back tokens of these blessings in the shape of soulmelds.

So what this means is that a user of incarnum in this setting is that they have the power to draw on the panoply of the underworld, to converse with the dead and earn their blessings. It is within their ability to draw on the spiritual essence of a legendary blade and bring it to their hands, or to run with the same speed and vigor as an ancient hero. With the guidance of the moon, they descend into the afterlife, and with the sun, they rise back into life, empowered by spiritual journey.

It is important to note, of course, that not all in the underworld are heroic and benevolent. A villain can find just as many allies and legends in the underworld as a hero, and come back from such a journey armed just as strongly.

[Particle_Man]

Technically you could play an Azurin without an alignment fetish, if you go Azurin totemist.

I hear you about the fluff though. I feel the same way about psionics, although that is mostly because a lot of my friends are allergic to the fluff (they got burned on earlier editions, methinks). If I were less lazy I would try to reskin psionics as "gem magic". I did try a campaign where it was the "new magic" introduced by the fey (and dark fey) into a less magical world, but I didn't reskin it enough, I guess.

I kinda think of the dusklings as a feral nightcrawler race. :)

[Fax Celestis]

(much like Humans and Strongheart Halflings; in fact, they are considered humans, so you can rule they can get the stuff from Races of Destiny as if they were humans)

There's no "rule" about it. They're Humanoid (Human), which qualifies them for human-only racial feats and classes. Illumians are the same way.

[eggs]

The most interesting refluffings I've seen have turned the soulmelds into tattoos and taken the specifics into various other directions (some tribally ritualistic, some similar to the shadowcaster). Despite its overall strong art, the visuals of Incarnum are pretty difficult to overcome.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It also has a fondness for the blues.

Blues?
http://th07.deviantart.net/fs5/300W/i/2005/127/a/7/Protoman_Legends_by_keishinkae.jpg:smalltongue:

[Person_Man]

Incarnate magic is REALLY BAD at attacking and damage, unless you're a totemist. Your job is not to walk up and smack dudes, that's crazy talk. You're playing it like a fighter and it's a rogue. Try shaping Acid Spittle if you really MUST do damage.

Incarnates are skill monkeys. Skill monkeys that can change their skill list on a whim. Because it's Tuesday. My GM still has nightmares of the low level Spellthief with incarnate feats and +32 Sleight of Hand.

I disagree (somewhat). Incarnate's have a number of solid offensive options - Necrocarnum Circlet, Necrocarnum Weapon, Mantle of Flame, Flame Cincture, Dissolving Spittle, Arcane Focus, Psychic Focus, Incarnate Weapon, Incarnate Avatar, Planar Chasuble, plus their Incarnum Radiance class ability, and that's before you get into weird tricks with Share Soulmelds or Necrocarnate or whatnot. You can stack up some fairly impressive to-hit (if Lawful) or damage (if Evil) bonuses, with strong options for battlefield control, ranged attacks, and/or Save or Suck effects.

It's just that their offense is not as impressive as the Totemist. But they make up for it with amazing defensive abilities (massive bonus hit points, Damage Reduction, Spell Resistance, Miss Chance, super Deflect Arrows, etc) and a wider range of Skill buffs.

[Particle_Man]

No, Jojo's is more like "pick a spell, just one. You can do that at-will now" and is probably better represented by the Psionics system, considering that Stands aren't real and are manifestations of the user's psychic power, and combat between Stands is straight up old fashioned psionic combat except with icons.

Not familiar with Jojo but your initial description made me think of Warlocks with their never ending at-will abilities. I mean psionics is about points and points run out, right?

[Big Fau]

Not familiar with Jojo but your initial description made me think of Warlocks with their never ending at-will abilities. I mean psionics is about points and points run out, right?

Watch the abridged series (Antfish's JJBATAS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVGBo5X8wvQ)).


Although Seasons 1 & 2 of JJBA were not about the now-iconic Stands.

[Rubik]

Please tell me you have said spreadsheets! While I like MoI in theory, I've never actually played it for precisely the reasons you mentioned. A good spreadsheet would help tremendously!I was swordsage'd, else I'd have linked to that incarnum soulmeld spreadsheet. Quite useful, definitely. Wasn't that Lycanthromancer's work?

[eggs]

I disagree (somewhat). Incarnate's have a number of solid offensive options - Necrocarnum Circlet, Necrocarnum Weapon, Mantle of Flame, Flame Cincture, Dissolving Spittle, Arcane Focus, Psychic Focus, Incarnate Weapon, Incarnate Avatar, Planar Chasuble, plus their Incarnum Radiance class ability, and that's before you get into weird tricks with Share Soulmelds or Necrocarnate or whatnot. You can stack up some fairly impressive to-hit (if Lawful) or damage (if Evil) bonuses, with strong options for battlefield control, ranged attacks, and/or Save or Suck effects. For straightclassed Incarnates, I have to disagree.

The blasting powers generally deal 1d6+1d6/essentia energy damage with a luck element in delivery (ranged touch, reflex saves, &c.). That's workable until ECL4, but it drops from level-appropriate damage output pretty quickly. Even Dissolving spittle's recurrence bind at ECL 14 only has it doing 12d6 damage at ECL 14 - and that's with nontrivial feat/gp investments.

The self-buffing melee abilities provide some decent numbers, but on the Incarnate's low-BA frame, with all its feat taxes, gp sinks and lack of melee-focused class features, a Law Incarnate's partial attacks will typically stay in the same damage ballpark as a comparably built Monk, and will sit at about 2/3 of that Monk's damage on a full attack - but only in the brief periods where Incarnum Radiance is active. And even then, without the rider effects that the Monk class provides, like trips and stuns. Given the Monk's poor reputation as a melee contender, these are not favorable comparisons.

The one viable offensive engine available to the Incarnate is its Mage's Spectacles for UMD. But because there's no in-class method for creating wands or scrolls, the strategy is highly campaign-reliant.

Multiclassed Incarnates, on the other hand, are quite effective offensively. Sapphire Hierarchs, Soul Manifesters, Soulcasters and ToB mixes are all completely viable - sometimes with better options and comparable power to the base classes Incarnate is spliced onto.

[Big Fau]

Yeah, Incarnate is a class that only truly shines with properly planned-out multiclassing or Gestalt. Or the Skillful enhancement on a Lawful or Evil Incarnate, which helps put them into the "Decent" territory.

[Psyren]

I was swordsage'd, else I'd have linked to that incarnum soulmeld spreadsheet. Quite useful, definitely. Wasn't that Lycanthromancer's work?

I believe so.



Sure, but it's arguable for Able Learner and/or Chameleon, the same as the Aventi and the Vasharan (though much less ambiguous for Silverbrow Humans). All four are essentially humans with a twist: Incarnum-imbued humans, aquatic humans, innately-evil humans and dragon-blooded humans. Thus, you may figure if that holds more weight considering the particular restriction on the feat and the PrC.

It's not "arguable." Humanoid (human) makes them Humans.

[Person_Man]

For straightclassed Incarnates, I have to disagree.

The blasting powers generally deal 1d6+1d6/essentia energy damage with a luck element in delivery (ranged touch, reflex saves, &c.). That's workable until ECL4, but it drops from level-appropriate damage output pretty quickly. Even Dissolving spittle's recurrence bind at ECL 14 only has it doing 12d6 damage at ECL 14 - and that's with nontrivial feat/gp investments.

Yes, Dissolving Spittle by itself does not scale well at higher levels. But you can shape and bind multiple soulmelds.

Mantle of Flame (unbound) deals 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia) damage against your enemy whenever they hit you in melee.

Your Necrocarnate Zombie bound to your Crown (2nd level) gives you a minion which retains the size and natural attacks it had prior to it's animation. For example, an 5th level Incarnate can animate a Swordspider, which has 9 attacks per round. (I'm sure there are plenty of other more abusive options out there. The nice part of this is that it's based on the enemies your DM throws at you. So if he throws weak enemies at you, combat is easy and your Necro Zombie sucks. If he throws hard enemies at you, you'll generally get a better minion).

Astral Vembraces bound to your Hands (4th level) gives you 2 Slam attacks (which like all natural weapons can be added on top of your normal full attack routine).

Incarnate Weapon bound to your Arms (9th level) can be charged with a Save or Stun effect. You can release this on an attack of opportunity (Karmic Strike, Hold the Line, etc), recharge it every round as a Move Action, and then use your Standard Action to activate Dissolving Spittle or a magic item.

Flame Cincture bound to your Waist (14th level) allows you to resist Fire damage (just have an ally dump a Fireball on top of you while you're standing next to enemies, or buy an Explosive Weapon) and release it as a touch attack the next round as a Swift Action, dealing the damage you a resisted.

Arcane Focus or Psychic Focus bound to your Throat (14th level) forces an enemy that you damage with a spell or psionic attack to Save or be Dazed. The Save DC is based on your Wisdom and Essentia investment, not the spell. So buy an item with a Swift Action spell or power or buy a Spell Storing weapon.

Planar Chasuble bound to your Soul (19th level) allows you to use Gate, which allows you to Summon demi-god like extraplanar beings to serve you as needed, for a price. (Though I prefer Keeneye Lenses on a daily basis for continuous True Seeing).


Now, all of the above can occur on your turn prior to your use of Dissolving Spittle or a (potentially heavily buffed) melee attack(s) or Demoralize an enemy or pull of other tricks. And don't forget that you have easy access to large Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device checks.

[hiryuu]

Not familiar with Jojo but your initial description made me think of Warlocks with their never ending at-will abilities. I mean psionics is about points and points run out, right?

Nah, it's more like one spell with the option to use psionic combat. We're talking about a world in which the ability to summon zippers or the power to open a turtle into a hotel room have deadly combat applications in addition to the ability to have psychic duels with the battles being represented by mental projections of freakish monsters.

[eggs]

Yes, Dissolving Spittle by itself does not scale well at higher levels. But you can shape and bind multiple soulmelds.I'm skeptical about your interpretations of the rules behind Arcane/Psychic Focus and Astral Vambraces, the reliable applicability of Mantle of Flame or Flame Cincture and the overall importance of XP-expensive 1/week abilities in a class's overall functionality.

But you're right about the Necrocarnum Zombie. I had remembered it was much more limited than it is. A level-appropriate corpse looks like it would effectively double the Incarnate's damage contributions for very little investment, as well as whatever utility purposes get thrown into the mix. It's not a soulmeld I've used, but I'd concede that that ability alone could make the Incarnate function as a damage/BC engine.

[Prime32]

1) Wild Flower Style
If you're not aware, Wild Flower is a character from the game Jade Empire. A young girl who died in a flood, she was given a new chance at life by becoming a host to two spiritual forces, the heavenly guardian Chai Ka, and the demonic spirit Ya-Zhen. Both are able to manifest through her in an attempt to carry out their desires in the world, using her as a conduit with which to directly act on the material plane.

This was the inspiration for one of my incarnum refluffs. The melds of the incarnum classes are the abilities and natural qualities of a supernatural entity, manifesting through the character. This makes it rather similar to Binding from Tome of Magic, but it has a fairly different quality to it- the character does not have to have made a pact, or purposefully set out to become a host to such an entity. They do not have to magical skill, or even real understanding of their situation. All they have to do is be well suited to become a conduit, and become a host to a single spiritual entity.

However, such an entity cannot perfectly express themselves through a mortal host. Therefore, reinvesting essentia, and shaping different soulmelds become ways to express different aspects and powers of a much mightier entity. At one point in a fight, the sword of a possessing archangel might be manifest more strongly, while on a later day, it might assert its wings.

Under such a system, something like an Azurin also makes a great deal of sense- they are human, except for one distinct difference, namely that for whatever reason, they are more suited to being a spiritual host.

With this system, a character might play as host to multiple entities, or only one, much more vast one, and what precisely they are host to can vary wildly. As such, I would allow specific players to refluff each soulmeld, describing how it fits with the entity they have chosen. A helm might become a halo, a set of horns, or in fact a regal crown denoting royalty.Obligatory:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd54/Prime32_temp/Motivators/motivator7780873.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-ri67nop10)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Obligatory:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd54/Prime32_temp/Motivators/motivator7780873.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-ri67nop10)

But what if it looks like this?
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090513173153/shamanking/en/images/thumb/1/1f/Amidamaru_Oversoul_2.jpg/200px-Amidamaru_Oversoul_2.jpg
Also, Silva is the coolest totemist ever.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Is that Hana? or a younger Yoh?

[Necroticplague]

Is that Hana? or a younger Yoh?

Neither, it's Yoh once he receives a plot-necessary upgrade.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oversoul instead of possession? Damn I read Shaman King a loooooong time ago and I really can't remember :smallredface:

To be a more on topic, I've never played an actual meldshaper class; but I'd some fun with melds, they are pretty useful even when not binded to a chakra, the stealth bonus for Kruthkit Claws was pretty useful for the last Rogue I played.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Oversoul instead of possession? Damn I read Shaman King a loooooong time ago and I really can't remember :smallredface:

No. Both are oversoul. The second one is after Yoh "died" (walked through a mystical cave for seven days where at one point, you lose all ability to sense your surroundings and your own body), so that he could increase his spiritual power, since you're only born with a certain amount and you have to become effectively nothing more than your bare soul to gain more. After it, he gets a shield in oversoul, and Amidamaru can also keep his sense of self. The most powerful version of his oversoul is where Amidamaru fully materializes.

It was so he could face Ren and Bason's oversoul and not be curbstomped.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Probably was the translation I read; but AFAIK there was a huge difference between "possession" were the companion spirit "fused" with the Shaman and just allowed him to use the abilities it had in life and the oversoul where the spirit bonded with an object (in Yoh's case the sword whose name I can't remember but I know it has something to do with summer rain) giving it more abilities...which actually sounds a lot like Incarnum....

[Hiro Protagonest]

Probably was the translation I read; but AFAIK there was a huge difference between "possession" were the companion spirit "fused" with the Shaman and just allowed him to use the abilities it had in life and the oversoul where the spirit bonded with an object (in Yoh's case the sword whose name I can't remember but I know it has something to do with summer rain) giving it more abilities...which actually sounds a lot like Incarnum....

I know. In both of those pictures, Amidamaru is fused to the sword. As far as I know, Yoh hasn't used possession since he learned oversoul, but I'm around chapter 100 right now.

[willpell]

I take back what I said before about Skarns; on further thought I realized that with little effort they can be portrayed as functionally the Nieschzeans from "Andromeda," and this is too awesome not to do. I'm still lost on the Rilkans, who at the very least will never exist as portrayed in any of my campaign universes just because I think their throat scales make them look hideous. But the idea of them having a racial mass mind appeals to me, reminding me vaguely of certain concepts from Hinduism and Buddhism about an "Akashic Record", possibly tied to the mythical snake-people called Nagas (not to be confused with the D&D monster). There's some definite worth to be played around with there.


I can see that, but I doubt the designers had even heard of those things.

I'm very curious where the idea came from then. Is there a developer's blog or some release notes or something?


No, Jojo's is more like "pick a spell, just one. You can do that at-will now" and is probably better represented by the Psionics system, considering that Stands aren't real and are manifestations of the user's psychic power, and combat between Stands is straight up old fashioned psionic combat except with icons.

Okay, well I haven't seen the show, I was just going off a clip in which one of the Joestars seems to be manifesting an 'energy object' around his hands in order to smash something, but come to think of it that's closer to a spell such as Bigby's Hand than it is to a soulmeld anyway. I guess I can more or less cross Green Lantern off the list of comparisons too, though a Good Incarnate with high enough level to do the instant-remelding thing probably makes a passable GL homage.


"Chakra" is just silly designer code for "Magic item slot."

No, Chakra is a real-world concept from Hindu mysticism (and crappy New Age knockoffs thereof), and it more or less suggests the same things that it does here, it's just that the actual chakras don't correspond to extremities such as feet and hands. The real theory is that they are all located along the spine, and that proper meditation causes an energy known as kundalini to rise from the base chakra, which symbolizes the most primitive concerns of the individual, and flow up to higher chakras which represent nobler concerns as a metaphor for the expansion of consciousness. As with most real-world occultism, it's probably 99% poetic nonsense, but having received a Reiki-esque massage once and observed a distinct energy effect without sample bias, I am absolutely certain that there is something valid to the idea of the body's "subtle energies", even if I'm very inclined to be skeptical of anyone who claims to know the exact details.


You know fae are, like, primal elemental forces associated with the inevitability of fate, right?

Well I wasn't going back that far, that would rule out things like dryads. I just think that "fey" is absolutely the worst possible type for "random thing I just made up"; there ought to always be some connection to mythology IMO. Had they been aberrations I'd have been more tolerant of them being weird and not having a proper name.


(I personally think it was a mistake to try to make a physical weapon, that you can pick up and drop, into a soulmeld in the first place.)

I think that the idea of the weapon that keeps flying back to your hand is absolutely perfect as what soulmelds are really about; if I had to pick only one power to represent what MoI is and should be about as far as I'm concerned, Incarnate Weapon would be it. (Incarnum Avatar would probably be #2; it's got some rather serious issues but the overall idea is just too awesome, and I love the picture that goes with it - especially since it's one of the only pictures in the entire book that ISN'T ALL BLUE. I'm beginning to wonder if The Giant even named the Sapphire Guard as a shot at MoI, given how much paladins and LG soulborn resemble each other on a thematic level.)


Technically you could play an Azurin without an alignment fetish, if you go Azurin totemist.

According to the book, Azurins "are never" neutral; it doesn't clarify whether that means "cannot be" or "in practice never seem to be", but even if it doesn't outright prohibit them from being Incarnates and Druids, it certainly suggests the author figured they usually weren't. Since people are saying Soulborn is weak and Azurins are strong, perhaps the designer intentionally tried to balance them through these prohibitions? (Obviously it didn't go so hot, and it's not something I think should have been tried in the first place, but then I'd never have written this book.)

[Psyren]

According to the book, Azurins "are never" neutral; it doesn't clarify whether that means "cannot be" or "in practice never seem to be", but even if it doesn't outright prohibit them from being Incarnates and Druids, it certainly suggests the author figured they usually weren't. Since people are saying Soulborn is weak and Azurins are strong, perhaps the designer intentionally tried to balance them through these prohibitions? (Obviously it didn't go so hot, and it's not something I think should have been tried in the first place, but then I'd never have written this book.)

I took that line to mean that they're never TRUE Neutral, i.e. there's always some ethos or moral standpoint they want to champion. This is supported in the book's statblocks - the sample Sapphire Hierarch for instance (MoI pg. 142) is Azurin, and she is LN (which is, coincidentally, the only possible alignment for a default SH with Incarnate entry.)

[Piggy Knowles]

I think that the idea of the weapon that keeps flying back to your hand is absolutely perfect as what soulmelds are really about; if I had to pick only one power to represent what MoI is and should be about as far as I'm concerned, Incarnate Weapon would be it.

See, now, I personally prefer soulmelds to be emanating directly from the opened chakra. One of my favorite things about the incarnum system, fluff-wise, is how personal it is - you are not manipulating the world, you are manipulating yourself. You are learning that, by opening the chakras of power, you are more than your physical form, and you can manipulate the energy that emanates from these chakras to better yourself.

What bothers me about the incarnate weapon is that it is separate from the self, and it doesn't appear to emanate from any particular chakra. The concept is sound, but it sort of conflicts with what I enjoy of MoI's flavor in general.

If I were re-writing it, instead I would make it so that shaping a particular soulmeld allows you to pour your soul energy into an existing weapon, bonding it to you. The actual abilities of the incarnate weapon would stay the same, but instead it would be a physical object that you have poured a bit of your lifeforce and soul into. Your soulmeld provides a conduit between you and the weapon, and while it is shaped, that conduit is open - you inherently understand how to wield it, it becomes stronger than ordinary steel, and it returns to you always. Once the soulmeld is unshaped, that conduit is broken, and it becomes just an ordinary weapon again.

[Particle_Man]

According to the book, Azurins "are never" neutral; it doesn't clarify whether that means "cannot be" or "in practice never seem to be", but even if it doesn't outright prohibit them from being Incarnates and Druids, it certainly suggests the author figured they usually weren't. Since people are saying Soulborn is weak and Azurins are strong, perhaps the designer intentionally tried to balance them through these prohibitions? (Obviously it didn't go so hot, and it's not something I think should have been tried in the first place, but then I'd never have written this book.)

I guess you could treat that like various monster manual entries that are "always XXXX" and then play the rebellious neutral azurin (with two scimitars, of course). :smallcool:

[Lans]

I think their are actual numbers on that in the DMG or MM. With members always being an alignment means >99% or something are that alignment

[Zaq]

Am I the only one who understood MoI just fine pretty much the first time through? It's really not that confusingly presented. I think people really tend to overstate how poorly laid out it is. My only real problem with Incarnum is that the high-level binds, as a whole, don't stand up to other high-level abilities. Nothing stands up to high-level spells, of course, but I feel like they don't hold up as well as high-level vestiges or high-level maneuvers. Still, Incarnum is a really cool system, and I think its reputation for being complex is overstated.

Also, I'm convinced that Incarnum Spellshaping turns all your verbal components into variations of "da ba dee, da ba die."

[Lateral]

Am I the only one who understood MoI just fine pretty much the first time through? It's really not that confusingly presented. I think people really tend to overstate how poorly laid out it is. My only real problem with Incarnum is that the high-level binds, as a whole, don't stand up to other high-level abilities. Nothing stands up to high-level spells, of course, but I feel like they don't hold up as well as high-level vestiges or high-level maneuvers. Still, Incarnum is a really cool system, and I think its reputation for being complex is overstated.

I have to say, I agree. For the most part, I was able to understand it fine after reading the whole thing (sure, skipping around a lot, but still) and looking just a bit at Sinfire's guide. It's not really that well laid-out, certainly, but it isn't incomprehensible.

Also, just as an aside, I have to say I kind of figured that this thread would turn into a long argument between the OP and everyone else about whether Incarnum sucks, but instead it's a perfectly civil discussion of its flaws and strengths. That's nice to see. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

I'm not at all ashamed to say it took me weeks to understand it, and I picked up on every other subsystem (except ToB) in moments.

I don't think the layout is all that confusing. Yeah you need some kind of external reference to remember that, for instance, Kruthik Claws gives stealth while Yrthak Mask helps your hearing, but for the most part the name of a soulmeld gives you a good idea what it does (at least the base effect.)

[Particle_Man]

I think their are actual numbers on that in the DMG or MM. With members always being an alignment means >99% or something are that alignment

Azurin are statted up as monsters in MoI too. What does the alignment entry for them say?

[Person_Man]

My only real problem with Incarnum is that the high-level binds, as a whole, don't stand up to other high-level abilities. Nothing stands up to high-level spells, of course, but I feel like they don't hold up as well as high-level vestiges or high-level maneuvers.[/color]

There are a few gems - the Swarm template (Broodkeeper's Heart in Dragon Mag 350), Etheral Jaunt, Gate, True Seeing, and the equivalent of Celerity (gain an extra round this turn, but you lose your turn next round). Plus the Totemist and Incarnate each have decent capstones, as does the Ironsoul Forgemaster PrC.

But in general, you are absolutely correct that they need better high level options.

[Psyren]

Azurin are statted up as monsters in MoI too. What does the alignment entry for them say?

"They tend toward extremes in alignment." Rather than one stat block, three sample Azurins are given - A CG Warrior, A CE Cleric, and a LE Soulborn. There is no use of "always" or "usually."


There are a few gems - the Swarm template (Broodkeeper's Heart in Dragon Mag 350), Etheral Jaunt, Gate, True Seeing, and the equivalent of Celerity (gain an extra round this turn, but you lose your turn next round). Plus the Totemist and Incarnate each have decent capstones, as does the Ironsoul Forgemaster PrC.

But in general, you are absolutely correct that they need better high level options.

Note that with Share Soulmeld you can get Gate 2/week.

[Benly]

The reason for all the blue is that Azurin are a weird fantasy take on the New Age notion of indigo children (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_children).

[Big Fau]

Note that with Share Soulmeld you can get Gate 2/week.

Only if the DM rules that the feat shares Chakra Binds too.

[Yuki Akuma]

I have to say, I agree. For the most part, I was able to understand it fine after reading the whole thing (sure, skipping around a lot, but still) and looking just a bit at Sinfire's guide. It's not really that well laid-out, certainly, but it isn't incomprehensible.

I got it basically the day I bought it, too. I'm not entirely sure why people have difficulty with it, but eh.

[Psyren]

Only if the DM rules that the feat shares Chakra Binds too.

It does by RAW. The DM would have to rule against it.

Relevant rules:


Share Soulmeld
...
Benefit: At your option, any soulmeld shaped by you and currently affecting you can also affect your familiar, animal companion, or mount.


Chakra Bind (Chakra)

Binding a soulmeld to one of your chakras can significantly increase its effect. This entry describes the additional power or powers granted by a soulmeld that is bound to the indicated chakra.

Share Soulmeld shares the powers of the soulmeld. The additional powers that come from binding that meld still come from the soulmeld - not from the chakra. So the feat does not have to share your chakra binds.

In other words, your chakras unlock the additional power of the soulmeld, and the improved soulmeld is then shared with your familiar/animal companion.

[Benly]

I got it basically the day I bought it, too. I'm not entirely sure why people have difficulty with it, but eh.

My experience is that the big hurdle in getting the mechanics, other than the poor organization and pile of jargon, is that incarnum is pretty much the only D&D mechanic that's about allocation rather than expenditure and the book doesn't do a great job of making that clear. Every time I've tried to explain it, it's become pretty easy once I made clear that it was about moving the points from one container to another instead of actually spending them.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Am I the only one who understood MoI just fine pretty much the first time through? It's really not that confusingly presented. I think people really tend to overstate how poorly laid out it is. My only real problem with Incarnum is that the high-level binds, as a whole, don't stand up to other high-level abilities. Nothing stands up to high-level spells, of course, but I feel like they don't hold up as well as high-level vestiges or high-level maneuvers. Still, Incarnum is a really cool system, and I think its reputation for being complex is overstated.

I didn't really have any real problems with the system the first read through. Some memory issues (what binds provide what), but overall, I understood the concept pretty well.

[Big Fau]

I'm still not that solid on it myself, but I had a basic grasp over it after reading the first five chapters twice over.

[Coidzor]

Darn it thread. Taunting me with my inability to get to play a meldshaper without ganking or tanking my Wildshape Ranger/MOMF. :smallsigh:

[Starbuck_II]

My experience is that the big hurdle in getting the mechanics, other than the poor organization and pile of jargon, is that incarnum is pretty much the only D&D mechanic that's about allocation rather than expenditure and the book doesn't do a great job of making that clear. Every time I've tried to explain it, it's become pretty easy once I made clear that it was about moving the points from one container to another instead of actually spending them.

True, it could do with more examples in the book.

[eggs]

The system's presentation isn't nonsensical, but it seems to be written with the assumption that readers already know how it works (or at least which words are to be interpreted as jargon, and which words are to be interpreted colloquially).

The one phrase that's confused basically everyone I've seen learn the system was "shaped a soulmeld (and bound it to a chakra)" - the parenthesical phrase looks like an explanatory aside equating the two, and there's nothing preceding the phrase to explicitly differentiate "shape" from "bind", or even to indicate that "bind" is its own precisely-defined piece of system jargon.

Once that distinction is made, the writing is straightforward enough.


The larger problem with learning the system isn't learning how it works, but what it does. Psionics or the core casting system have handy lists of powers and what they do, making it relatively straightforward to think "how can my Cleric get better at whacking things?" then turn to the Cleric spell list and find out.

Incarnum, on the other hand, does have lists of soulmelds by class, but the list only includes their base effects (often their least important aspect). If you've heard Law Incarnate can crank up the numbers in a melee build, and turn to the Incarnate soulmeld list, the only melee bonuses that show up are small static effects that don't increase with essentia, and that have alignment-compatibility issues. Discovering the relevant melds involves a one-by-one slog through each of the 50ish soulmelds on the Incarnate list.

Or if you look at the Totemist melds list to see what the Totemist can do, you'll see it gets some tiny boosts to various skills, but until you dig into the list itself, it's not even clear that the Totemist gets natural weapons.

[Fax Celestis]

There are a few gems - the Swarm template (Broodkeeper's Heart in Dragon Mag 350), Etheral Jaunt, Gate, True Seeing, and the equivalent of Celerity (gain an extra round this turn, but you lose your turn next round). Plus the Totemist and Incarnate each have decent capstones, as does the Ironsoul Forgemaster PrC.

But in general, you are absolutely correct that they need better high level options.

No love for Totem Rager? :(

[Necroticplague]

No love for Totem Rager? :(

Even with the extra essentia while raging, you would still get more essentia if you stayed totemist.

[Piggy Knowles]

I avoided Incarnum for quite some time. When I finally actually read through the book, I found I really liked the system. But that being said, the following things confused me until I'd read through a couple of times...

1. How essentia is "gained" and "spent". Benly's point about essentia being allocated rather than spent is a good one. Most mechanics gives you a certain amount of a resource per (day/encounter/whatever), and you spend those until they are done. But essentia doesn't work like that, and it takes a little bit to think of it that way. I found the book really didn't get that point across, because they keep changing the terminology they use for how essentia is used ("invest," "harness," "distribute" and "spend" were all used just in the first 20 pages of me flipping through MoI).

2. They poorly define level-based abilities. Hope you caught that tiny table on page 19, because if you didn't, you'll have no idea how much essentia you can invest at any given point in time. They also bring up the term "meldshaper level" a bunch of times throughout the book, but don't define it at all until page 50. There's one sentence in the whole book that tells you max essentia invested is based on character level, and not meldshaper level, and I've talked to several people who got that last one confused.

3. Your Constitution determines how many soulmelds you can have shaped, right? Is it your Con mod, or your Con score -10? On page 20, they say that a character would need a Constitution of 18 to have four soulmelds shaped. In the very next paragraph, they say it is Con -10, and that a character with Con 13 could have three soulmelds shaped. Whoops!

4. How do you invest essentia into a soulmeld? Do you do it when you shape your soulmeld? Once you invest that essentia, can it be changed? The fact that you can re-allocate your essentia each round as a swift action is buried in paragraph four of the Meldshaping line within each class, rather than in the summary of the ability itself. The summary on page 50 helps a little bit, but I didn't really get how essentia could be invested until my second time going over Chapter 4.

5. Not enough examples!

These things all make sense to me now, but they didn't immediately. I thought that books like XPH, Dungeonscape and Complete Scoundrel did a MUCH better job explaining the mechanics behind their new toys than MoI did.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Even with the extra essentia while raging, you would still get more essentia if you stayed totemist.

But then you don't get the awesome raging bonuses!

Edit: among other things...

[mikau013]

Is there any reason why incarnum prcs have their own chakra bind progression instead of just improving the one of their base class?

[JackMage666]

These things all make sense to me now, but they didn't immediately. I thought that books like XPH, Dungeonscape and Complete Scoundrel did a MUCH better job explaining the mechanics behind their new toys than MoI did.

Dungeonsape and Complete Scoundrel's toys were rather diminutive in comparison to MoI, which was introducing a whole new system of magic into the game. XPH is an easy read, but you still get people scewing up the part of "Can't spend PP over your Manifester Level" more often than you should for a system that's got such easy access to the rules (since it's in the SRD.) As well, I think alot of people get Psionics fairly easy because they can relate it to the MP system that most video games possess. Personally, the only magic I find easier than Psionics is Sorcerer (or Favored Soul), since it's as simple as "I know these 3rd level spells, I can cast 4 3rd level spells per day." The wizard and cleric still gives me grief because then the step is "I have access to these spells, so I can prepare them now, but then I get to cast one of these two spells as well, oh, and I should prepare that spell with metamagic..."

[mikau013]

I'm very curious where the idea came from then. Is there a developer's blog or some release notes or something?


Since you asked nicely here is a quote from one of the developers of the book:


In terms of flavor, Bastion of Broken Souls was clearly an inspiration for this product, and the book does pay homage to that adventure at certain points. Mechanically, I was trying to blaze new ground.

[Fax Celestis]

Even with the extra essentia while raging, you would still get more essentia if you stayed totemist.

Essentia isn't everything. Whirling frenzy barbarian into totem rager makes for what amounts to Taz.

[Particle_Man]

3. Your Constitution determines how many soulmelds you can have shaped, right? Is it your Con mod, or your Con score -10? On page 20, they say that a character would need a Constitution of 18 to have four soulmelds shaped. In the very next paragraph, they say it is Con -10, and that a character with Con 13 could have three soulmelds shaped. Whoops!

Just to be clear, it is Con score - 10, right? So an 17 con = 7 soulmelds (assuming your class allows that and you are high enough level (and/or have taken shape soulmeld a bit or a lot)?

[Piggy Knowles]

Just to be clear, it is Con score - 10, right? So an 17 con = 7 soulmelds (assuming your class allows that and you are high enough level (and/or have taken shape soulmeld a bit or a lot)?

Yeah, it's Con -10. In the example I mentioned, they're actually talking about a multi-class Totemist/Incarnate who is shaping four of each type of soulmeld. But the wording is very misleading, and they bring up a weird, confusing example before the rule for some odd reason.

Again, read it through a few times and you'll see what they're getting at. But it's all put together in a way that could be a lot clearer.

[dextercorvia]

Just to be clear, it is Con score - 10, right? So an 17 con = 7 soulmelds (assuming your class allows that and you are high enough level (and/or have taken shape soulmeld a bit or a lot)?

That's the rule, the other is an example, and rules always trump examples if they disagree.

[Person_Man]

No love for Totem Rager? :(

Oh, I think the Totem Rager is a great PrC. It just doesn't add any high level class abilities, which is what that particular post was about. Specifically, it does not open up the Waist, Throat, Heart or Soul chakra slots, and it's capstone ability is +1 Totem essentia capacity, which is the same as the Totemist's 15th level class ability. (Very useful, but not comparable to other capstone abilities).

[T.G. Oskar]

Three days late, so it's not that fresh, but...



Actually, I think if you tacked on the aquatic template, they wouldn't make half bad scaled horrors.

Which goes well with Black Blood Cultist. :)

I presume it's a combination of Scaled Horror 2/Black Blood Cultist 8? I definitely see some synergy around after a while: Improved Grab means all your attacks initiate grapple, Savage Grapple means you automatically do damage with all natural attacks. Mix with the Skarn's spine attacks for two extra piercing attacks.

Still not surprising on its own compared to, say, Pounce (though the two levels in Barbarian to enter the class might just do the trick, perhaps with a few levels in Totemist for the Totem Chakra), or what 10 levels of Thayan Gladiator do to the spines, particularly with five levels in Spinemeld Warrior: you effectively make your spines deal damage as longswords, treat them as two light weapons for TWF, get an extra attack for free, free enhancements, 19-20 threat range with x3 critical damage (plus free stun for the heck of it), access to Soulborn soulmelds (while not as mind-bending, stuff like Thunderstep Boots and Bluesteel Bracers are no slouches) AND Spine Rend.

[willpell]

I'm officially a fan of Incarnum in general now (making this thread's title rather bassackwards in retrospect), although all the complaints I've voiced before still stand. It's a bad book with a good idea folded, spindled and mutilated into its pages, and is well worth the effort of dissecting and remixing into something amazing. I will share the results here when I am satisfied with them.

Currently the biggest problem I'm having is figuring out how to make a particular Incarnate different from every other Incarnate of the same race and alignment. As soon as you gain a meldshaping level (Incarnate or Totemist 1 or Soulborn 4), you can shape every soulmeld on your class's list (as long as it doesn't have a contrary alignment, which very few do). This means that every Incarnate ever is going to solve every problem in the same way, and the list of such solutions is not all that long with only something like 30-40 different soulmelds per class (I haven't counted but my eyeball tells me it's around there). If you need to hop across a chasm, get Airstep Boots; if you're on a ship, get Sailor Bracers, if you go directly to Hell without collecting $200 just pop on a Flame Cincture, if you're Good and you're going to the Zombie Master's Temple of Everdeath you whip out Armguards of Disruption, exactly like every other Good Incarnate will do. I've always hated the fact that every Cleric knows every Cleric spell that isn't alignment-incompatible, but it at least makes sense given that you're just phoning out for your power, plus the various deities and a choice of Domains give you legions of ways to individualize your Clerics - there might be more unique character concepts there than for any other class! But for Incarnates, there are really only four characters which show up in several slight variations, and this utterly burns my toast. I'm brainstorming solutions but it will take a long damn time before I get anywhere.


My issue with Incarnum is that I find you are not given enough Essentia to do stuff. How much more is needed I don't know, but it needs more. Spending a feat just to get one point of Essentia is atrocious.

The real atrocity is that the feats lock up your essentia for 24 hours, and they give you as much essentia as they can hold for your first five levels anyway, so they completely don't interact with meldshaper classes at low levels. Unless you just take the feat solely for the extra essentia, because you need it badly enough, and completely ignore what the feat does. (Which is a fairly appropriate reaction to the Cerulean Saves, given that they are strictly worse than the PHB save feats until at least 12th level, and that's only if you have essentia you don't need which is pretty damn unlikely. This is particularly sad given the comparison I just did between low-level Paladins and low-level LG Soulborn - the first and most glaringly obvious distinction is that Paladins get an immense bonus to all of their saves at level 2 and the Soulborn don't.)


Vivicarnate

Huh?


Strongheart Halflings

I reiterate my previous statement.


they are a worthwhile +Str/LA +0 class, unlike the poor half-orcs which get nothing else (oh, maybe orc ancestry, but that doesn't qualify).

I always assumed half-orcs got nerfed because STR was more powerful than any other attribute, for game balance reasons. If they later came along and made a strictly better race, then I am sad.


Soulborn, on the other hand, needs some help (and that's an understatement).

Having looked at the class, I completely agree. I am working on it, but I need to crowdsource a name for the result. The basic idea I'm looking at is wuxia-style warrior-philosopher guys, where their soulmelds represent concepts that they incarnate as part of their battle against whatever they oppose, similar to what HKC typically calls a "sword saint", but without the implication of virtue or weapon choice. I like the idea of them waiting to get powers until 4th level like paladins and rangers, but they need to be competitive in the meantime; comparing what Level 2-3 Paladins get to what a Soulborn gets in the same time (okay an Incarnum feat is pretty nice but still not nice enough given the loss of Lay on Hands, ally-fearproofing and immunity to all diseases, and at 2nd level the Soulborn just looks pathetic).

I still think "Soulborn" is a decent name for the race which the book calls "Azurin", so for the moment that's my plan if I choose to use that race at all. Oh, and while I'm kvetching about names, as much as I hate "Azurin" and "Rilkan" and above all "Duskling", they are still not as awful as "Scalykind". Please tell me who is responsible for that abomination against all that is decent and worthy, so that I can avoid everything they have ever written.


The introduction of Incarnum feats really brings out a lot on the feat system. Incarnum is one of the few systems which you can integrate to just about everything, since the more feats you get the more essentia you end up having.

I believe the word for that is "parasitic"; it means you can't just dabble in the system without having rather weak results. Plug-and-play options are better than narrow themes (and of course this is a problem very deeply ingrained in D&D in the first place, compared to games like Champions or World of Darkness where there are no such things as levels and classes to restrict your customization).


Aventi.....Silverbrow Humans

Once again, huh? I'm especially interested in these because I have a passion for modified humans and thus would like to read up on all the variants, even if I'm likely to be disappointed by them (as I have been by Azurins, Elans, Maenads, and the little reading I've done on Illumians). Someday, I hope, I'll find one that's to my taste; until then I collect them and tinker with them. The Vasharan I have heard of (evil humans? as opposed to...?); is there any info on them beyond what's in the BOVD?


See, now, I personally prefer soulmelds to be emanating directly from the opened chakra. One of my favorite things about the incarnum system, fluff-wise, is how personal it is - you are not manipulating the world, you are manipulating yourself. You are learning that, by opening the chakras of power, you are more than your physical form, and you can manipulate the energy that emanates from these chakras to better yourself.

That would be very cool, if it were in fact what the system suggests. But instead it's more like "everybody's soul is made of magic armor". I've tried to rewrite the fluff to suggest that this has to do with essential symbolism of the humanoid form, but it's really tenuous. Mostly the fluff is just goofy and weird and probably done to amuse the author by resembling that module he liked, which in all probability I wuold hate.


If I were re-writing it, instead I would make it so that shaping a particular soulmeld allows you to pour your soul energy into an existing weapon, bonding it to you.

This is exactly how Necrocarnum (ugh but I hate that word) Weapon works, and it certainly could make sense to rule that way. I might even do it myself, but I'll be a little sad if I do, because the idea of pulling a sword out of your soul was the very first thing about this book that made me decide I had to care about it. (Though I don't like that it's always the same weapon for each alignment; I'm hoping to eventually create a "design your own IW" system which is balanced so you always get something in the same effectiveness range as a longsword, warhammer, battleaxe or flail, but could choose to have it be something more exotic as a way of personalizing the character.)

[Psyren]

Huh?

There's a very nice adaptation to the Necrocarnate (MoI pg. 135) that turns it and all the Necrocarnum melds good-aligned, allowing you to use them without having to kick puppies and eat babies. Though the fluff is radically different, the crunch is otherwise identical with the Necrocarnate. It even refluffs the Necrocarnum zombies that Person_Man mentioned, giving you one of D&D's very few officially-sanctioned avenues into becoming a good-aligned necromancer.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm officially a fan of Incarnum in general now (making this thread's title rather bassackwards in retrospect), although all the complaints I've voiced before still stand. It's a bad book with a good idea folded, spindled and mutilated into its pages, and is well worth the effort of dissecting and remixing into something amazing. I will share the results here when I am satisfied with them.

I think it's no longer an issue to drop a "told you!" around. It's a system that grows the more you see what you can do with it, as long as you deal with the fluff. I find Skarn to be pretty awesome (though not to the degree of Aasimar, Gnomes, Shifters or Warforged), and I don't find too much problems with the other races save for Rilkan, because what they get is...meh, at the very least. Not even a measly Charisma bonus.

@Other mentioned races: the Strongheart Halflings are a variant of the common halfling (the Lightfoot) which replace their bonus to saving throws for an extra feat (like a Human). They appear in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book.

Aventi appear in the Stormwrack splatbook (aka, It's Wet Outside), and are essentially humans with the aquatic subtype. They don't get the things that make humans awesome (the bonus feat and bonus skill points), but instead get a swim speed and a slight bonus with spells with the [Water] descriptor.

Silverbrow Humans are one of the dragontouched race variants in Dragon Magic. Essentially, they are humans that descend from the union of humans and silver dragons. They gain the dragonblood subtype (explained in the Races of the Dragon splatbook) and replace their bonus skill points for a bonus to disguise and limited uses of Feather Fall.

The reason I mentioned the last two was because Races of Destiny (which deals with all human-related races) has feats that work only for humans or human-descended abilities. A specific feat (Able Learner) is limited ONLY to humans and doppleganger, and so does the Chameleon prestige class. Changelings somewhat qualify because they're a mix of humans and doppleganger, but most other races (aasimar, tiefling) don't. However, the Aventi, the Silverbrow Humans and the Azurin are special because, fluff-wise, they ARE humans with some extra things, so they essentially qualify for these two bits for being humans by any other name.


I always assumed half-orcs got nerfed because STR was more powerful than any other attribute, for game balance reasons. If they later came along and made a strictly better race, then I am sad.

That was the official excuse. Back then, Strength was so well-regarded (and it still is, just that not as much if you're a caster which gets all the nice things) that a class that granted Strength and few other benefits really jumped the gun. They just ran over it with the half-orc, because the only good thing they get is Strength and darkvision, but they believed it was an unfair choice and nerfed them down to oblivion. As time passed, the devs learned that a Strength-based race was nothing so special, so they made the Skarn a Str+ race with the useful spine attacks and not sucky penalties (Dex, mostly).


Having looked at the class, I completely agree. I am working on it, but I need to crowdsource a name for the result. The basic idea I'm looking at is wuxia-style warrior-philosopher guys, where their soulmelds represent concepts that they incarnate as part of their battle against whatever they oppose, similar to what HKC typically calls a "sword saint", but without the implication of virtue or weapon choice. I like the idea of them waiting to get powers until 4th level like paladins and rangers, but they need to be competitive in the meantime; comparing what Level 2-3 Paladins get to what a Soulborn gets in the same time (okay an Incarnum feat is pretty nice but still not nice enough given the loss of Lay on Hands, ally-fearproofing and immunity to all diseases, and at 2nd level the Soulborn just looks pathetic).

Soulborn...really has some issues. It's obvious it's a patchwork class: Totemist really encompasses all that an Incarnum-based class should be, even with its callbacks to Druid and Barbarian, because it has a strong fluff. I find at least ONE more example from those mentioned that would benefit strongly from Totemist (namely, Gau from Final Fantasy VI is a Totemist with a different method of learning and shaping soulmelds, but it's functionally best as one), and it allows for a good variety of builds. Incarnate has the trouble of being a caster-like class, but it's a decent enough introduction for incarnum-using classes that it's no trouble. Soulborn, on the other hand, has the problem of being a class that required covering some missing points in the book (a third class on a time where a splat introducing a new system had to have three base classes minimum), plus the lack of a martial/incarnum based class. They figured that using the Paladin chassis and tacking a reduced meldshaping progression would suffice, but the problems with the Paladin chassis went over to the Soulborn, and the name was just too unimaginative to make it worthwhile. They get a few unique melds, but they could have gotten a bit more (perhaps one or two more melds from the Totemist, while keeping some of the melds Soulborn have access to strictly limited to the Incarnate). The biggest deal was that they could have used the Incandescent Champion as a good example of making a unique martial/incarnum using class by creating a base class that used essentia and chakra binds to improve class features. For example, had Smite Opposition gotten the Sapphire Smite feature tacked for free and used the Chakra Binds to provide extra capabilities, the Soulborn would have had something else to work on (and quite probably more points of Essentia than it currently has). Other such features would have worked as well. As it stands, they tried to make a class that didn't shadow the Paladin, but they ended up doing something similar to the Half-Orc.


I still think "Soulborn" is a decent name for the race which the book calls "Azurin", so for the moment that's my plan if I choose to use that race at all. Oh, and while I'm kvetching about names, as much as I hate "Azurin" and "Rilkan" and above all "Duskling", they are still not as awful as "Scalykind". Please tell me who is responsible for that abomination against all that is decent and worthy, so that I can avoid everything they have ever written.

Hey, it only takes so long before they have to use compound words for new material (Hexblade, Duskblade, Warblade...notice the trend?). At least they attempted to work with the idea of evoking names. I don't find Azurin to be an awful name; it's probably that it sounds so much like existing euphemisms that it sounds just wrong (like for example, the N-word, which has a color connotation). I would have groaned to see "Soulborn" as the name for Azurin, just as much as I groan at "Shardmind" as a 4E psionic race name.


I believe the word for that is "parasitic"; it means you can't just dabble in the system without having rather weak results. Plug-and-play options are better than narrow themes (and of course this is a problem very deeply ingrained in D&D in the first place, compared to games like Champions or World of Darkness where there are no such things as levels and classes to restrict your customization).

I don't find it like that. Quite the opposite, with some effort you can actually make ends meet.

Take, for example, Cobalt Power. Cobalt Power is a direct boost to Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple and Improved Sunder. While strictly not as powerful as the above mentioned, it has a scaling property which improves with levels and more feats for Essentia. You can keep your pool as one point, but once you have an essentia pool you can find ways to increase it further without the use of feats (magic items, for example).

The problem lies on that developers thought that shifting essentia between feats was a bad idea, so they decided to lock all essentia poured on it. However, it's not much of a problem for some builds.


Once again, huh? I'm especially interested in these because I have a passion for modified humans and thus would like to read up on all the variants, even if I'm likely to be disappointed by them (as I have been by Azurins, Elans, Maenads, and the little reading I've done on Illumians). Someday, I hope, I'll find one that's to my taste; until then I collect them and tinker with them. The Vasharan I have heard of (evil humans? as opposed to...?); is there any info on them beyond what's in the BOVD?

Technically, Elan are not humans per se. They aren't even humanoids, actually. They are not born, but made, and they have no more claim to humanity than a Planetouched would.

Sadly, there's no more info on the Vasharan other than what's on the BoVD. I mention them as "evil humans" in the same trend that Drow are "evil elves", Duergar are "evil dwarves" and Jerren (also from the BoVD) are Belkar's actual raceevil halflings. As in, they are slightly different and "always" evil instead of "any". Sure, a human CAN be evil, but never as evil as a Vasharan (think of it: the first thing they do when they were created? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster)MURDERDEATHKILL (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillEmAll)!!!! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz))

[Yuki Akuma]

I reiterate my previous statement.

"Strongheart" is a halfling subrace from Forgotten Realms. Among other changes, they get a bonus feat, like a human, instead of the +1 luck bonus to all saves.

They're among the best 0LA races in the game. The others are all human subraces which keep the racial bonus feat. (And also possibly dwarves, who simply get a ton of bonuses.)

[Particle_Man]

So, any advice for a half-orc soulborn 20 build? :smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

So, any advice for a half-orc soulborn 20 build? :smallbiggrin:

Have low expectations. Also, terrorize commoners.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So, any advice for a half-orc soulborn 20 build? :smallbiggrin:

Shape/bind Thunderstep Boots, and take on regular people in increasing numbers as you level up rather than CR-appropriate encounters (even the ones at the level of "curbstomp")

[Fax Celestis]

Having looked at the class, I completely agree. I am working on it, but I need to crowdsource a name for the result. The basic idea I'm looking at is wuxia-style warrior-philosopher guys, where their soulmelds represent concepts that they incarnate as part of their battle against whatever they oppose, similar to what HKC typically calls a "sword saint", but without the implication of virtue or weapon choice. I like the idea of them waiting to get powers until 4th level like paladins and rangers, but they need to be competitive in the meantime; comparing what Level 2-3 Paladins get to what a Soulborn gets in the same time (okay an Incarnum feat is pretty nice but still not nice enough given the loss of Lay on Hands, ally-fearproofing and immunity to all diseases, and at 2nd level the Soulborn just looks pathetic).

I still think "Soulborn" is a decent name for the race which the book calls "Azurin", so for the moment that's my plan if I choose to use that race at all. Oh, and while I'm kvetching about names, as much as I hate "Azurin" and "Rilkan" and above all "Duskling", they are still not as awful as "Scalykind". Please tell me who is responsible for that abomination against all that is decent and worthy, so that I can avoid everything they have ever written.My favorite soulborn fix is to just gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) it with soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm) and call it a day. Other gestalting options that have different results but come out to about par powerwise are marshal, dragon shaman, and spellthief.


"Strongheart" is a halfling subrace from Forgotten Realms. Among other changes, they get a bonus feat, like a human, instead of the +1 luck bonus to all saves.

They're among the best 0LA races in the game. The others are all human subraces which keep the racial bonus feat. (And also possibly dwarves, who simply get a ton of bonuses.)

Hilariously, you can spend that bonus feat on Luck of Heroes, which provides a +1 luck bonus to all saves and a +1 luck bonus to AC, and come out better than your regular ol' lightfoot halfling.

[Particle_Man]

My favorite soulborn fix is to just gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) it with soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm) and call it a day.

And yoinked! :smallcool:

[Lans]

My favorite soulborn fix is to just gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) it with soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm) and call it a day
I also allow the soulborn to invest essentia into his soulknife like it was a soulmeld to give it additional +1 enhancement. You could also grab abilities from the weapon binding class from MoI for when he can bind things.

[Answerer]

My favorite soulborn fix is to just gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) it with soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm) and call it a day.
I've seen this fix around, and I think it just doesn't work. People think "oh wow, gestalt in a non-gestalt game, that's a really good way to boost them," but in my experience having twice as many useless abilities still doesn't make you good. Nothing either Soulborn or Soulknife offers is worthwhile, so having both does not make the result impressive, IMO.

A more thorough fix would be necessary, or just dropping the Soulborn altogether since the Incarnate is more than capable of holding up any niche the Soulborn would appear to be designed for.


I always assumed half-orcs got nerfed because STR was more powerful than any other attribute, for game balance reasons. If they later came along and made a strictly better race, then I am sad.
Half-orcs are one of the weakest races ever printed; almost anything is strictly better (including the completely core Orc). They were printed as weak as they are because Wizards greatly overestimated the potency of a bonus to Strength; in reality, it's not much of a big deal. Bonuses to mental abilities or Constitution are much, much more generally powerful than bonuses to Strength (though there is nothing inherently better about mental scores, it's just that classes that use them are massively better than classes that use Strength; Constitution is clearly the most important and powerful ability taken on its own merits).

In reality, Strength is probably the least powerful ability score. Dexterity users can obviate the need for Strength entirely (Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade, for instance), and any sort of caster has absolutely no use for it. The only significant advantages of Strength are its bonus to combat maneuvers tripping, and the 1.5xStr bonus to damage with two-handed weapons. If you don't have a two-handed weapon and you aren't tripping, you don't really need or want Strength at all.

[Novawurmson]

I personally love the Azurin and Dusklings. The Azurin feed into my basic love of the "human-not-human" - Aasimar, Tieflings, half-orcs/elves, etc.; fantasy stories and games have taught me that human beings are different than most races because of their ability to change and adapt quickly (whether nigh-instantaneously for an individual or over just a few generations for an isolated group).

Dusklings on the other hand are vicious fae. They're not Tinkerbell or some Fairy Queen - they're creatures of the land that will summon the forces of nature to rip you to shreds. My general concept of fae is something more like the Cthulhu-mythos: Mind-bogglingly ancient and unknowable forces of nature that sprung into being eons before the first human intelligence.

However, I can deeply agree that Magical Beasts are an annoying inspiration for a class. I've never had a player sigh and say, "Man, I really wish I was a displacer beast. That would be so cool!"

Owlbears are another story.

- - - - - -



Here's one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.125)

ALL HAIL PSYREN. Seriously, thank you.

[Prime32]

Here (www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=43)'s a soulborn fix I put together, where I tried to solve that "everyone is the same" issue.

[Person_Man]

My favorite soulborn fix is to just gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) it with soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm) and call it a day.


I also allow the soulborn to invest essentia into his soulknife like it was a soulmeld to give it additional +1 enhancement. You could also grab abilities from the weapon binding class from MoI for when he can bind things.

Then you may wish to check out my homebrew War Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441), which was directly based on Fax's suggestion for a Soulborn + Soulknife, with a few fixes and additions to smooth it out.

[Lans]

I've seen this fix around, and I think it just doesn't work. People think "oh wow, gestalt in a non-gestalt game, that's a really good way to boost them," but in my experience having twice as many useless abilities still doesn't make you good. Nothing either Soulborn or Soulknife offers is worthwhile, so having both does not make the result impressive, IMO.

A more thorough fix would be necessary, or just dropping the Soulborn altogether since the Incarnate is more than capable of holding up any niche the Soulborn would appear to be designed for.
I think you maybe underestimating it, at least at about 6th level. Its no warblade, but it should be higher than a fighter or paladin, especially if ACFs are added in. Or T5+T5=T4 in general math terms.

How do you feel about my suggestion of allowing incarnum to be invested into the soulknife and adding the incarnum blade abilities? So a +9 weapon with +4 worth of abilities and the miscellaneous incarnum blade abilities?

[Particle_Man]

I've seen this fix around, and I think it just doesn't work. People think "oh wow, gestalt in a non-gestalt game, that's a really good way to boost them," but in my experience having twice as many useless abilities still doesn't make you good. Nothing either Soulborn or Soulknife offers is worthwhile, so having both does not make the result impressive, IMO.

Giving a soulknife a full BAB does seem like a good start from the soulknife pov. In fact, I have heard that listed as the "fix" the soulknife needs. The rest seems like free candy for the SK.

[eggs]

Giving a soulknife a full BAB does seem like a good start from the soulknife pov. In fact, I have heard that listed as the "fix" the soulknife needs. The rest seems like free candy for the SK.
People often say that's the one fix the Monk needs. That doesn't mean it addresses the class's problems.

The Soulknife needs:
-A way to deal with mobility issues
-A way to deal with common defenses (magical or otherwise)
-A way to avoid common disabling effects
-A way to do damage
-A way to do something other than damage
-A reason to touch its Mind blade before level 5

The only thing BA addresses is damage. Souborn can slightly help with some of the other flaws (though due to the limited melds and essentia, it's likely to be one of the other flaws, or several poorly).

For the gestalt, with heavy ACFing (the big one being the Mind blade bonus feats), I could see it being comparable to the Barbarian, but way less front-loaded (which would make it much worse in any sort of optimization-focused environment).

[Yuki Akuma]

Giving a soulknife a full BAB does seem like a good start from the soulknife pov. In fact, I have heard that listed as the "fix" the soulknife needs. The rest seems like free candy for the SK.

...How did you double post half an hour apart..?

[Particle_Man]

...How did you double post half an hour apart..?

The internet is a mysterious place. :smallsmile:

[Answerer]

Soulknife offers:
2 Power Points (i.e. a crappy feat) – very meh, but sadly perhaps the best thing it gets.
A free crappy magic weapon – almost worthless
A damage boost that requires wasting actions, affects one attack per round, and is ignored by an enormous swatch of enemies – even worse.
A limited version of a fairly meh feat (Quick Draw).
A limited form of speed bonus, itself an almost-useless property (Speed of Thought).
A... we'll be generous and say "OK" feat that otherwise requires an awful number of prerequisites (Whirlwind). Still only situationally useful and not a situation you really want to find yourself in.
Tiny amounts of ability damage replacing his already-awful damage bonus.[/quote]

I'm being only somewhat facetious when I say Wild Talent might be the best of the bunch; the Mind Blade does free up a lot of money that would otherwise be spent on a weapon, but you'd get a better weapon if you spent the money, plus any class feature you can buy is seriously devalued by that fact alone.

The rest of the class is worthless.


To this, Soulborn adds:
[list] Full BAB, d10 HD. A good chassis, but chassis is not very important compared to class features.
Aura, which only broadcasts your potential vulnerabilities. Negative feature.
Smite, i.e. an even worse attack booster than the Soulknife's. Only possibility comes from taking relevant feats, but even then it's still pretty meh.
Immunity to one status effect. All of the available immunities are rather common, but at the least they're pretty debilitating things; you want immunity to them. So this is finally a worthwhile, albeit somewhat minor and replaceable, class feature.
Bonus feats, joy! Decent list, though, anyway, since Incarnum feats are often pretty good.
A tiny number of Soulmelds, Chakra Binds, and level/2 Meldshaper Level. I won't make the fallacy of saying it's worse than you could do with feats, but it's arguably only better because you can take the feats as well (and even get some bonus feats).

Most of the Soulmelds available to the Soulborn are pretty meh. Thunderstep Boots, I know, they're pretty awesome. But for the most part, they were binds that the Incarnate got many levels ago, and even the Incarnate has some trouble where he has to constantly switch up his binds because the best binds change dramatically as you level. As a result, the Soulborn is getting the features appropriate to a character many levels lower, and cannot use them as well as that character could have back then.

Is the gestalt better than either? Yes. And the Soulborn itself is clearly doing a fair bit better than the Soulknife to begin with. But this is not the solution to either class's problems. The Soulborn has very little to offer the Soulknife (the chassis might, sadly, be the most important part), and the Soulknife has almost nothing to offer the Soulborn (oh, you can make a magic weapon? Well, look, I get a bonus feat at 3rd that can take Shape Soulmeld [Incarnate Weapon] – so can I!).

I'm sorry, but you just need to do more. This is not a solution; the gestalt is probably still Tier 5 ("so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute." – he's really got little more than a decent chassis going for him).

[Benly]

Improving and tweaking the Soulborn's meldshaping seems like the most obvious answer, perhaps combined with adding on modified soulknife features. The list of "things the Soulknife needs" basically applies to the Soulborn as well, and some minor expansion of its soulmeld list combined with the ability to meldshape and bind at lower levels could readily address all of them. A variant of the mind blade that functions as an additional essentia receptacle would be a nice touch, too, and would give the Soulborn its distinctive feature as a meldshaper.

[willpell]

A specific feat (Able Learner) is limited ONLY to humans and doppleganger

What bugs me about that feat is not the limiting to humans (although I'd be willing to consider ruling that some other species are probably capable of gaining it - elves and orcs probably not, but maybe something like lizardmen could be flavored as "rapidly evolving" just as humans are), but rather that it is limited to first level only for absolutely no visible reason. Why can't someone become an able learner through a great deal of dabbling? I have also considered adding more limited feats that give you access to several extra class skills just because I dislike how narrow the classes are. I'm constantly wanting to give a character things like Intimidate or Sense Motive just because they fit the personality, and it infuriates me that D&D wants to punish you for having a deeper characterization. Allowing players to take some extra feats that have to be noncombat and non-utility is one of the solutions I've considered, but it still leaves me unsatsified.


Changelings somewhat qualify because they're a mix of humans and doppleganger, but most other races (aasimar, tiefling) don't. However, the Aventi, the Silverbrow Humans and the Azurin are special because, fluff-wise, they ARE humans with some extra things, so they essentially qualify for these two bits for being humans by any other name.

I find the distinction that a "Silverbrow" should be human but an aasimar shouldn't to be absurdly hair-splitting (much it annoys me that aasimar and tieflings are unaffected by Hold Person; you would think they'd object to being told they aren't people).


I would have groaned to see "Soulborn" as the name for Azurin, just as much as I groan at "Shardmind" as a 4E psionic race name.

Oddly I thought "Shardmind" was cool, although I didn't realize they were Psionic; that does make it a little on-the-nose. I thought they were just an inorganic race tied to the cosmology of the 4E setting, which was one of the few things I'd heard about 4E which I approved of (saying that aberrations all come from the Far Realm makes a lot more sense than saying "an aberration is anything which is really weird", which they actually had the gall to do in the Lords of Madness book which was entirely devoted to explaining what aberrations are, yet somehow failed to do so - although I'd still call it one of my favorite supplements...but I digress).


The problem lies on that developers thought that shifting essentia between feats was a bad idea, so they decided to lock all essentia poured on it. However, it's not much of a problem for some builds.

My assumption is that they mostly did this because of the highly situational timing of most of the feats in question. "I use Sapphire Sprint to run to the other side of the kingdom, then when I see a bunch of undead protecting a cleric, I use Azure Turning to blow all the undead up, then I Cobalt Charge the cleric for one good whack and then switch into Cobalt Critical for the rest of the fight, and after that I Healing Soul myself. Oh, the cleric summoned a fiend? Awesome, evil outsiders are my favored enemy so I'll use Azure Enmity too." Granted being able to flop things around on a whim is kinda the point, but it would probably have been too good for at least some of these - on the other hand it might have made the Cerulean Saves actually usable somehow. Maybe not Reflex so much, but certainly upping your Fortitude save after you've been poisoned is fun times.


Technically, Elan are not humans per se. They aren't even humanoids, actually. They are not born, but made, and they have no more claim to humanity than a Planetouched would.

Meh. I believe I was speaking in a fluff sense there but since these forums truncate quotes to one level I can't be sure what I said without going back and looking.


Sadly, there's no more info on the Vasharan other than what's on the BoVD. I mention them as "evil humans" in the same trend that Drow are "evil elves", Duergar are "evil dwarves" and Jerren (also from the BoVD) are Belkar's actual raceevil halflings.

Lol....oddly I never actually thought of that. Belkar of course is totally a normal halfling in every way other than being evil, and nowhere in the PHB does it say they can't be, just that they usually aren't. Given that they favor Rogue it seems obvious to me that at least some of them must be selfish bastards, but Belkar has the food thing and the shoeless pride and so forth, and I'm sure he and Bilbo would get along famously on that basis alone. But as to the Jerren, I thought of them as a riff on the famously un-PC notion of "evil pygies" (notably visible in Diablo II's third act). Normally I despise the idea of a race being inherently evil, and I always revise the fluff to clarify that their evil is culturally ingrained rather than inherent in their blood. But I like the Vasharan a lot with that caveat, because they make such a good foil for pointing out the not-nice things about our own species; just take away all the sympathetic qualities of human sentimentality and present the most brutally on-the-nose portrayal of exactly what we're capable of being if we allow it to happen.


the first thing they do when they were created? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster)MURDERDEATHKILL (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillEmAll)!!!! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz))

Specifically they tried to kill their creators, and as a person who despises his father for having been an incompetent and self-serving parent, that idea seems perfectly logical to me. All you have to do is say that the Vasharan don't like being alive, but are too stubborn to give the cosmos the satisfaction of killing themselves (plus after all, they know they'll go to the Lower Planes if they do, and it sucks there, so they might as well make it suck here too so they can get used to it in advance), so instead they work to spite the rest of existence as punishment for their own unhappiness. They perceive their own existence as an injustice for which they demand bloody retribution from the entire rest of the cosmos, because it was created by their creators out of a belief that they had been a mistake. It's perfect.

[willpell]

Half-orcs are one of the weakest races ever printed; almost anything is strictly better (including the completely core Orc).

That can't be called strictly better because orcs are sensitive to bright light. In a campaign that takes place in the middle of the Desert of Brightly-Polished Mirrors during the Year of Eternal High Noon, you'd rather be a half-orc. :D


Constitution is clearly the most important and powerful ability taken on its own merits

Especially with Meldshaping in the mix. It rather bugs me that all meldshapers use Constitution (with one also using Wisdom); its' not like you weren't already going to be buying it up just for Concentration anyway, in case someone whacks you while you're melding for the day.


The only significant advantages of Strength are its bonus to combat maneuvers tripping, and the 1.5xStr bonus to damage with two-handed weapons.

You're missing a very important point, at least in terms of the theory behind the original book. Strength covers carrying capacity. If you have a strength of 6, you ain't walking anywhere in plate armor, nor can you carry gold (and oh look what a coincidence, all the valuable gems have been consumed as material components for spells). The tent you plan on sleeping in tonight weighs 20 pounds, your torches are like a half a pound each (and without them you will be eaten by a grue), plus you need to carry food or water in case the GM teleports you to the middle of the desert. You also ain't getting into the dungeon without a ladder, 50 feet of rope (did you buy the more expensive and lighter silk rope? then it got stolen by a thief who has a Strength penalty and would have balked at the hemp rope). You can't afford a bag of holding, and buying a horse and cart is just asking to get attacked by CR 15 monsters attracted to the scent of horse sweat. Mind you, this is all insanely fiddly and annoying and almost nobody plays this way anymore, but there are grognards around who used to run the campaign exactly this way, and the books were written with them firmly in mind on the assumption they were the core audience.

Of course, putting a strength-bonus-and-all-upside race in the MOI book makes a damn lot of sense, given that those math-obsessed Chainmail-miniature-playing grognards are almost certainly not going to be playing with a fluffy new-age pagan thing like Incarnum. They'll stick to their Leucrottas and Ioun Stones and Save vs. Magic Wands, thank you very much. :)

[Yuki Akuma]

That can't be called strictly better because orcs are sensitive to bright light. In a campaign that takes place in the middle of the Desert of Brightly-Polished Mirrors during the Year of Eternal High Noon, you'd rather be a half-orc. :D

There is a very cheap mundane item in Races of the Dragon that completely foils that penalty.

It's essentially a pair of sunglasses.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That can't be called strictly better because orcs are sensitive to bright light. In a campaign that takes place in the middle of the Desert of Brightly-Polished Mirrors during the Year of Eternal High Noon, you'd rather be a half-orc. :D

And when the entire world is a magic dead zone, you'd rather play a warblade than a wizard. Obvious discouragement is obvious.

[Answerer]

That can't be called strictly better because orcs are sensitive to bright light. In a campaign that takes place in the middle of the Desert of Brightly-Polished Mirrors during the Year of Eternal High Noon, you'd rather be a half-orc. :D
I'd really rather be none of the above, but light sensitivity is easily dealt with. If Sandstorm is in play (ya know, the book for dealing with deserts), Sun Lenses are 10 gp and "protect your eyes from being dazzled by bright light."

They do give the example of glare using the new rules in the book, but it's clearly an example and the wording of the item clearly would encompass light sensitivity though they don't mention it. Entirely possible that the author didn't even think of light sensitivity and didn't intend to cover it with the Sun Lenses, but by RAW they definitely do.

But even assuming RAI is that "zey do nothink!" the Sundark Goggles in Races of the Dragon explicitly "negate the dazzled condition experienced by a creature with light sensitivity while in bright illumination" – and again cost just 10 gp (also give a +2 save bonus against Gaze attacks; neat!).

If neither of those is available, there's a feat somewhere for dealing with it. Poor use of a feat, but if you really are focused on Strength that much, probably worth it.

Or you could do the usual thing, and take the Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs) – sure, you still have to figure out the light sensitivity thing, but actually have a good race if you're going to do the bruiser thing.


Mspecially with Meldshaping in the mix. It rather bugs me that all meldshapers use Constitution (with one also using Wisdom); its' not like you weren't already going to be buying it up just for Concentration anyway, in case someone whacks you while you're melding for the day.
It makes them quite unusual; the only other class I can think of with a Constitution focus is the Dragonfire Adept. Besides, it's not like Totemists can ignore Strength and/or Dexterity; they still need it to hit things.


You're missing a very important point, at least in terms of the theory behind the original book. Strength covers carrying capacity. If you have a strength of 6, you ain't walking anywhere in plate armor,
Yeah, except no one cares. Carrying capacity is trivial to work around or augment as necessary. Plus most groups don't pay that much attention to it, because it's freaking annoying to do so: no one likes to be doing constant weight accounting.


nor can you carry gold (and oh look what a coincidence, all the valuable gems have been consumed as material components for spells).
And almost no one includes the weight of gold. You know why? Because after about level 7 or so, the amount of gold you're supposedly due by the encounter tables becomes unmoveably large. Forget weight; the sheer volume of gold would make it impossible to move. I've yet to see a table who considers it fun to try to sort out the logistics of moving their hard-earned treasure. A +2 sword worth, to quote Frank & K (something I avoid doing for the most part but they're spot on here), "your weight in gold. Not its weight, your weight."


Mind you, this is all insanely fiddly and annoying and almost nobody plays this way anymore, but there are grognards around who used to run the campaign exactly this way, and the books were written with them firmly in mind on the assumption they were the core audience.
So? Most of those behaviors actually aren't encouraged or even mentioned in the DMG (the thief, teleporting to the desert, and CR 15 attack on a horse-and-cart are all terrible DMing). A lot of the assumptions inherent in it are faulty to begin with (most of these issues only apply at very low levels, since a Handy Haversack is going to get bought by someone in the party the minute they have enough gold).


Of course, putting a strength-bonus-and-all-upside race in the MOI book makes a damn lot of sense, given that those math-obsessed Chainmail-miniature-playing grognards are almost certainly not going to be playing with a fluffy new-age pagan thing like Incarnum. They'll stick to their Leucrottas and Ioun Stones and Save vs. Magic Wands, thank you very much. :)

[Particle_Man]

My assumption is that they mostly did this because of the highly situational timing of most of the feats in question. "I use Sapphire Sprint to run to the other side of the kingdom, then when I see a bunch of undead protecting a cleric, I use Azure Turning to blow all the undead up, then I Cobalt Charge the cleric for one good whack and then switch into Cobalt Critical for the rest of the fight, and after that I Healing Soul myself. Oh, the cleric summoned a fiend? Awesome, evil outsiders are my favored enemy so I'll use Azure Enmity too." Granted being able to flop things around on a whim is kinda the point, but it would probably have been too good for at least some of these - on the other hand it might have made the Cerulean Saves actually usable somehow. Maybe not Reflex so much, but certainly upping your Fortitude save after you've been poisoned is fun times.

But since it is a swift action (thus only usable 1/rd, as it is not a free action) to reallocate essentia, I am thinking of house-ruling the "essentia are locked into feats for the day" rule away. Is there any other downside I should watch out for?

[Answerer]

I don't think the original rule can be justified and I think the system is more consistent, useable, and fun if you're allowed to swap them.

[rot42]

For the ones that add to a roll and basically act like melds that do not take up a slot, you should be fine. A few of them convert your allocation pool into a static resource (Azure Talent, Azure Toughness, Midnight Metamagic, &c.). These can be handled as-written or with weird separate pools (you already used your first three temporary HP from Azure Toughness, so you need to invest two essentia to get another three).

[Starbuck_II]

And almost no one includes the weight of gold. You know why? Because after about level 7 or so, the amount of gold you're supposedly due by the encounter tables becomes unmoveably large. Forget weight; the sheer volume of gold would make it impossible to move. I've yet to see a table who considers it fun to try to sort out the logistics of moving their hard-earned treasure. A +2 sword worth, to quote Frank & K (something I avoid doing for the most part but they're spot on here), "your weight in gold. Not its weight, your weight."



Weight includes Volume in 3.5. So if you wanted actual weight reduce all weights by 3/4th to 1/2th. Longswords don't really weight 4 lb, not even close.

[dextercorvia]

But since it is a swift action (thus only usable 1/rd, as it is not a free action) to reallocate essentia, I am thinking of house-ruling the "essentia are locked into feats for the day" rule away. Is there any other downside I should watch out for?

Midnight Metamagic would be somewhat dangerous to allow them to move the essentia back into after using it. Most of the combat feats are fine.

[Answerer]

Weight includes Volume in 3.5. So if you wanted actual weight reduce all weights by 3/4th to 1/2th. Longswords don't really weight 4 lb, not even close.
Except, of course, that doesn't really make sense. Still, I can accept it as an abstraction of sorts, but where is this explained? I have never heard this before...

But at any rate, my point generally still stands. The weight involved with expected amounts of treasure in anything but the lowest levels would make moving currency in the required quantities impossible. Even if you have an ridiculously strong character or three, and could move it yourself, no one in the setting is really going to be able to take it. The amount of gold that a magic item is worth is too much gold to handle, and thus such items are impossible to buy with gold.

So you either ignore it because it's not worth anyone's time to worry about such things, or you come up with several more orders of magnitude above platinum pieces.

[willpell]

Yeah, except no one cares. Carrying capacity is trivial to work around or augment as necessary. Plus most groups don't pay that much attention to it, because it's freaking annoying to do so: no one likes to be doing constant weight accounting.

Which is exactly what I said - nobody does it anymore, which is why a race like the Skarn could happen, but the original writers of the 3E books assumed that at least some troupes would have a DM who was a hardass about these things, and so they overvalued Strength, hence the Half-Orc.

Which, by extension, tends to lead to why the whole tier thing came to pass - Wizards are a low-strength class, so the designers thought they were balanced with Fighters because Fighters would be stronger and thus better able to climb in and out of dungeons while hauling heavy objects. Not being one who likes the idea of tiers, I almost want to go to the effort of tracking encumbrance and mercilessly enforcing environmental restrictions, just in an attempt to restore the balance of the classes. Except that I know if you make the game too unforgiving, players just won't play, something Gygax never seemed to take into account (but then there weren't any other RPGs back then, so he kinda did have his players by the Mystic Orbs).


And almost no one includes the weight of gold. You know why? Because after about level 7 or so, the amount of gold you're supposedly due by the encounter tables becomes unmoveably large.

Which was entirely the point, I suspect. If you kill the dragon and find its gigantic hoard of gold, you're not supposed to be able to just shovel it into a bag of holding and stroll away whistling. You're intended to have to deal with the logistical issues inherent in having such a massive physical quantity of wealth, or else have to give up some of that wealth (abandoning it, having it stolen by thieves, being nickel-and-dimed by hirelings who help you carry it, etc). This is the whole reason the DM risks allowing you to gain such incredible wealth and power in the first place - it isn't free, it comes with its own problems and makes great story fodder. At least in theory. Mostly today's players don't go for a story like that, but the early Hackmaster-style players, math nerds and Chainmail afficionados all, might well have gotten off on exactly that kind of logistical challenge.


So? Most of those behaviors actually aren't encouraged or even mentioned in the DMG (the thief, teleporting to the desert, and CR 15 attack on a horse-and-cart are all terrible DMing).

By a modern definition of "terrible", sure. Not so much in the Gygaxian era, before Vampire: the Masquerade and similar games introduced the concept of RPGs as improvisational theater, where only the story mattered and the players had to enjoy themselves. The original era of D&D seems to have been designed to be more like a puzzle, and back then that was seemingly what the market wanted. It was a different time, with no Internet and no Emo fashion and "blockbuster" movies that centered around clumsy Claymation; the psychology of the player base was very different, which much less of the arrogance and narcissim which tend to flourish in the modern era of blogging and WOW clans (this isn't a value judgment, I happen to like this paradigm but a lot of older and more conservative persons are inclined to view it negatively, considering the modern attitude to be spoiled and self-indulgent in a way that society shouldn't encourage). So the idea that the campaign universe had to revolve around your character, giving you the game experience you wanted so that you would enjoy the time you invested in playing - not so much. Back then, the campaign universe was more like a living system in which you were at best grudgingly welcomed; if you wanted to achieve wealth and power, you were damn well going to sweat for it.


A lot of the assumptions inherent in it are faulty to begin with (most of these issues only apply at very low levels, since a Handy Haversack is going to get bought by someone in the party the minute they have enough gold).

"Enough gold" in this case being 2,000, and no character less than 3rd level even might have that much. Plus there's no guarantee that the players can in fact purchase such an item; just because it's in the DMG doesn't mean it's freely available in every campaign. The DM is completely within his rights to say such things are rare or nonexistent; there may not be any magic shops at all, let alone ones that have heard of that particular item, or perhaps they're so popular that they're sold out and the only way to get one is to kill another adventurer (who is higher level than you, and has friends in the Assassin's Guild who will come see you about it). Perhaps all this is "terrible DMing", but on the other hand perhaps it's exactly what the DM was always supposed to do - not let the players run roughshod over his campaign world without realistic consequences for behaving like they're more important than everyone else, even if OOG that's exactly the case.

(Oh, and it's Heward's Handy Haversack, and is alphabetized as such, and it took me about 3 minutes to find it because you didn't specify the proper name attached and I had forgotten that there even was one, let alone what it was. This is more an indictment of the DMG's authors than of you, of course.)


So you either ignore it because it's not worth anyone's time to worry about such things, or you come up with several more orders of magnitude above platinum pieces.

The Adventuring chapter of the PHB states that most really rich people, like nobles and stuff, do most of their trading in land rights, letters of credit, or trade agreements for durable goods (which might well be "500 GP worth of mahogany per week for six months" rather than "12,000 gp worth of mahogany", with regularly scheduled donkey-cart caravans of the goods going out cross-country, and various adjustments for depreciation and theft insurance - but this is "Dungeons & Dragons", not "Auditors & Attorneys", so that sort of detail tends to go unnoticed). That plus gems, art objects, and direct trade in high-level magic items or spellcasting services can all account for the immense values involved. You are explicitly not supposed to normally have that quantity of coins except when you've just raided a hoard (which was likely gathered from several acres of territory over a long period of time, with hundreds of people killed and stripped of their few GP each). The book outright says that very few non-adventurers actually use coins.

[tyckspoon]

Which, by extension, tends to lead to why the whole tier thing came to pass - Wizards are a low-strength class, so the designers thought they were balanced with Fighters because Fighters would be stronger and thus better able to climb in and out of dungeons while hauling heavy objects. Not being one who likes the idea of tiers, I almost want to go to the effort of tracking encumbrance and mercilessly enforcing environmental restrictions, just in an attempt to restore the balance of the classes.

I'm pretty sure you'd just get Wizards sparing a slot for (Tenser's) Floating Disk and Unseen Servants dragging around sacks. That's how Wizards dealt with the encumbrance issues back in the good/bad old days, after all, and the same tools are still there.

[sonofzeal]

I'd been working on an Incarnum build (NG VoP Incarnate -> Vivicarnate), but... what the heck does an Incarnate actually do? I see a whole lot of stuff for boosting skills, a couple useful things like flight, and a whole host of defensive items... but with harsh essentia limits per soulmeld, I can't really figure out what the Incarnate's supposed to do in combat.

At lvl 10 I could... do 3d8 damage as a ranged touch attack? Yay? Or I could get +3 on attack/damage, which doesn't even balance out for my terrible BAB. My DCs are, at best, equivalent to 3rd level spells that proper spellcasters were using 5 levels ago, so anything in that direction is pretty much out.

Mid level incarnates seem great at being able to say "lolno", and terrible at actually accomplishing things. How could a lvl 10 Incarnate handle level-appropriate challenges beyond merely not-dying?

[Answerer]

Which is exactly what I said - nobody does it anymore
I know, but I'd already written out this big thing by the time I saw that and didn't want to delete all of it...


which is why a race like the Skarn could happen,
I'm not seeing this connection, though.


but the original writers of the 3E books assumed that at least some troupes would have a DM who was a hardass about these things, and so they overvalued Strength, hence the Half-Orc.
I'm really, really dubious that this was their reasoning. Have you got any kind of source on that?

Wizards overvalued Strength. I don't think it was because of carrying capacity. I think it's because they assumed that the classes they'd made were balanced, that front-line warriors would always use Strength, and that since it directly fed into both attack and damage (to their minds, the most important things), it was better than the rest.

I think this was their mistake, and that they didn't consider carrying capacity very much, for a variety of reasons. One, they clearly also overvalued full BAB to an absurd degree. See Paladin, Ranger, Hexblade. Two, they only handed out straight attack and damage bonuses in very small increments: Bardic Inspiration scales very slowly in core, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization were considered "always take, almost too good" feats, etc.

Meanwhile, the weights and prices of objects in the game don't seem to have very much thought applied to them. Perhaps this is why 5E (I've heard) is moving towards having the silver piece, rather than the gold piece, be the standard unit of currency? Someone finally thought about these issues?

[AmberVael]

I'd been working on an Incarnum build (NG VoP Incarnate -> Vivicarnate), but... what the heck does an Incarnate actually do? I see a whole lot of stuff for boosting skills, a couple useful things like flight, and a whole host of defensive items... but with harsh essentia limits per soulmeld, I can't really figure out what the Incarnate's supposed to do in combat.

At lvl 10 I could... do 3d8 damage as a ranged touch attack? Yay? Or I could get +3 on attack/damage, which doesn't even balance out for my terrible BAB. My DCs are, at best, equivalent to 3rd level spells that proper spellcasters were using 5 levels ago, so anything in that direction is pretty much out.

Mid level incarnates seem great at being able to say "lolno", and terrible at actually accomplishing things. How could a lvl 10 Incarnate handle level-appropriate challenges beyond merely not-dying?
Ah, yeah, if you wanted to be capable offensively in combat, you'd probably need to go Lawful or Evil (preferably lawful, but an evil incarnate can boost numerous attacks to more effect).

This is the main reason I call incarnum a more difficult system. Sure, there's some complexity in picking up the mechanics, but you can manage to learn it. The real difficulty is that they are not active classes, but very passive ones. They can add buffs and boosts to other options... but don't necessarily have major options of their own.

Totemist is a bit better about this, because with medium BAB and natural attack stacking, you can more easily point out a niche. Incarnate? Not so much. More than any other class I know, what Incarnate does depends entirely on how you use it, and as such, its power and capabilities can range drastically.

As a vivicarnate though, one of your major assets is the Necrocarnum Circlet, which allows you to create zombies. And if one drops? Make another.

Now, as a Good incarnate, you're best suited to trying to take up a tank-type role, because as you've noted, you've got plenty of ways to boost your defenses. Devise strategies to get in the way of enemies and draw attention towards you- then let them fail against your armor and be set on fire with Mantle of Flame.

Also, there are some feats and items that can increase the amount of essentia you can invest in your soulmelds, which can make the damage based melds a bit more worthwhile.

Really though, some of the problem is your alignment choice. Good incarnates are just worse at combat than the other alignment options, simply because they lose out on the offensive options of Incarnate Avatar. A Lawful or Chaotic incarnate can boost their attack a lot easier, while Evil can focus more on harder and heavier hitting. Good... well, they survive.

On the other hand, the more I toy with the system, the more I feel that Incarnate is a class best paired off with something else. Don't play incarnate, play Incarnate/X. Toss in some tome of battle, or use it on the other half of a gestalt. Where Incarnate shines is boosting numbers, and on its own, that isn't really all that impressive.

[Answerer]

Now, as a Good incarnate, you're best suited to trying to take up a tank-type role, because as you've noted, you've got plenty of ways to boost your defenses. Devise strategies to get in the way of enemies and draw attention towards you- then let them fail against your armor and be set on fire with Mantle of Flame.
Reading this, it strikes me that Martial Study (Defensive Rebuke) and Martial Stance (Iron Guard's Glare) could do wonders for the character. Or just a full-on Crusader dip, or more than a dip...

[Piggy Knowles]

Yeah, NG incarnate has the fewest damage-dealing options. That said...

1. Vivicarnum Circlet. Low-level bind with a very nice effect that can give you decent offense throughout your career. Plus, I really like the basic shaped bonus.

2. Soulspark Familiar + Share Soulmeld. Makes things like Dissolving Spittle a little more powerful.

3. Mage Spectacles. I know UMD is a standard cop-out, but you can get pretty ridiculous UMD checks, so if you can stock up on wands, that can be a pretty effective offense for you.

4. Alternative sources of damage for Dissolving Spittle. Sighting Gloves are OK, but won't make a terrific difference at this level. Psionic Shot/Greater Psionic Shot are popular choices. Wands of Hunter's Eye can also help.

5. Shape Soulmeld is your friend. Totemists do get some nice offensive options.

[Vortling]

2. Soulspark Familiar + Share Soulmeld. Makes things like Dissolving Spittle a little more powerful.



Does this work? The share soulmeld feat text says that you have to be able to share spells with the familiar. The soulspark familiar feat doesn't appear to grant that particular familiar ability.

[sonofzeal]

On the other hand, the more I toy with the system, the more I feel that Incarnate is a class best paired off with something else. Don't play incarnate, play Incarnate/X. Toss in some tome of battle, or use it on the other half of a gestalt. Where Incarnate shines is boosting numbers, and on its own, that isn't really all that impressive.
Yeah, I think this is on the money. When's a good level to start taking my leave of Incarnate?


Also, what methods are there to increase capacity, besides that one feat that only boosts a single soulmeld?

Thanks again!

[Big Fau]

Does this work? The share soulmeld feat text says that you have to be able to share spells with the familiar. The soulspark familiar feat doesn't appear to grant that particular familiar ability.

It's questionable. Soulsparks aren't familiars, nor do they have a Throat Chakra to shape any soulmeld on (Share Soulmeld makes no mention of the familiar needing the relevant Chakra, but it isn't much of a stretch to require it).

[Essence_of_War]

Also, what methods are there to increase capacity, besides that one feat that only boosts a single soulmeld?


1) Class features - Incarnate and Totemist class features boost essentia capacity for their class's soulmelds.

2) Incarnum Focus - A magic item that does not interfere with a chakra bind. Boosts capacity by 1, and by MiC rules you should be able to stack the usual AC/Stat/Save boosting properties onto your Incarnum Foci. Effectively it's a gp tax to use your class features to optimum ability. Nice job designers...:smalltongue:

3) Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (the aforementioned feat)


Yeah, I think this is on the money. When's a good level to start taking my leave of Incarnate?

It depends on what you're trying to get out of Incarnum.

If you're looking to take 1-3 incarnum tricks that you're happy using one at a time, a 2-level dip in Incarnate + being an Azurin will get you 3 pts of essentia to play around with a few tricks you can cycle through as need be.

If you stay until 6, you qualify for Bonus Essentia and with Azurin, 6 levels, and Bonus Essentia, you can max out investment in 2 of your tricks (even at higher levels!) at a time, and you'll have several different tricks you can prepare.

If you want to be able to have several tricks fully invested at a time, and have so many soulmelds that depending on the situation you're cycling through GROUPS of tricks rather than 1-2 tricks, you're almost certainly going to need to stay in Incarnate, ISFM, or Necrocarnate.

Aside, a 2-level totemist dip in an otherwise straight incarnate is a strong choice to consider unless you're starting at or near 20th level, as it nets you an extra chakra bind, and access to the totem chakra. You lose no essentia for this dip at low levels, and only past level 12 or so do you notice being a little behind on the essentia progression.

[Lans]

the Mind Blade does free up a lot of money that would otherwise be spent on a weapon, but you'd get a better weapon if you spent the money, plus any class feature you can buy is seriously devalued by that fact alone.
Buying a better weapon would be a stretch at most levels. *Level 5 you would need to spend 8.3/9 of your wealth for a better weapon.* At 6th a better weapon would cost 18/13, so no. *7th 18/19, non bladeborn missing strength belt * 8th 32/27 * 9th 32/36 still missing out on strength belt * 10th 50/49 * 11th 50/66 +2 vs +4 belt * 12th 72/88 Still can't grab a +4 belt, Soulknife can have that. If the knifeborn used a mindblade gauntlet the other character would need to spend 128k at this level and would put the knifeblade over the top at the previous levels sans 5th.
* At 14th bought weapon would need to cost 164/150 * 15th is the first level where its actually doable.




With psychic strike you charge it before you enter battle, to not waste actions.

The rest of the class is worthless.
Except for giving a Soulborn all high saves and a skill boost







The Soulborn has very little to offer the Soulknife (the chassis might, sadly, be the most important part), and the Soulknife has almost nothing to offer the Soulborn (oh, you can make a magic weapon? Well, look, I get a bonus feat at 3rd that can take Shape Soulmeld [Incarnate Weapon] – so can I!). Except you can't take shape soulmeld with the Soulborn bonus feats, and it scales quite poorly.


I'm sorry, but you just need to do more. This is not a solution; the gestalt is probably still Tier 5 ("so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute." – he's really got little more than a decent chassis going for him).

Compare it to the barbarian. First 2 levels the barbarian has the advantage while in rage, outside of it the knifeborn has higher saves, vs what amounts to toughness and a speed boost. At level 3 the knifeborn can throw his mindblade for d6+d8 damage, and can use a bonus feat to get slightly better PA. 4th Barbarian is better for 2 fights a day, but by a less of a margin. Lucky Dice gives the knifeborn +1 to hit and damage, and makes him +1/1 behind him in rage, and +1/2 ahead when out. Lucky dice can also give a bonus to saves, or skills.
At 5th the free mindblade becomes useful, leading to +2/0.5 when barbarian is out of rage, 0/-2.5 when he is in rage. Start of the battle the soulknife gets +d8 damage, and 2 smites to alleviate 2 rounds worth of rage hitting each. Also 2.3 extra gold.
At 6th a free reroll on every attack routine from being lucky, barbarian in rage gets a mere 1.5 per hit on the soulknife. Each smite is worth rage 4 hits, and the psychic strike is 3 hits worth of damage. Weapon worth 8/13th of your wealth. Also speed of thought canceling out the barbarians speed boost.
At 7th extra 8 points of damage on the first round, vs dr/1
8th an extra soulmeld and a bind, maybe 4/magic, and giving your allies your lucky dice bonus vs a 3rd rage. Weapon is worth a free over 2/3rds of your WBL
9th Greater weapon focus, per round attacks are +1/0 vs a raging barbarian.

uncanny dodge, and the speed boost may put the barbarian over the edge for the first 4 levels, but after that I put my money on the knifeborn.

[JadePhoenix]

OP is wrong, incarnum is cool, period.

[Piggy Knowles]

Does this work? The share soulmeld feat text says that you have to be able to share spells with the familiar. The soulspark familiar feat doesn't appear to grant that particular familiar ability.

Yeah, re-reading the Soulspark Familiar soulmeld, it doesn't actually have Share Spells.

The feat itself is worded oddly. To take the feat, it says you must have a familiar, animal companion, or mount "with whom you can share spells with." But the actual benefit doesn't reference this, and says you can share it with any familiar.

So by RAW this wouldn't work, and you would have to have a familiar from some other source. I'd probably allow it as a DM, but that's neither here nor there. Disappointing, though - I've never actually played an incarnate, but it's something I've always had in the back of my mind as a way to add some much-needed offense.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe someday I will join a "gestalts allowed" style campaign and try a "good" incarnate/crusader. :smallcool:

[NineThePuma]

OP is wrong, incarnum is cool, period.

Read the thread, we're past that point and the OP is liking it now.

[Answerer]

Compare it to the barbarian.
I don't really want to. Your comparison, to me, looks like a stock-standard Barbarian versus a somewhat optimized "Knifeborn". For instance, "2 fights a day"? You mean there are Barbarians that don't take Extra Rage? Plus, of course, you have a "minor speed boost" when just about everyone (at least for Tier-discussion purposes) is taking Spirit Lion Totem for Pounce.

I mean, OK, I'll grant you that the Barbarian doesn't scale at all, and the Knifeborn eventually gets some goodies. Of course, the "Barbarian" wouldn't actually take more than 1 level, and that 1 level gave him a whole hell of a lot more than any 3 levels in "Knifeborn", but that's not really great design either.

You have several points, but I don't really think you can make a good argument for Tier 4 on the Knifeborn. The Barbarian you're describing isn't what is meant by the Tier 4 assessment, so far as I can tell. I mean, he isn't really "shining," even just at his one thing, which the Tier 4 description says he's supposed to be able to do. And while you can make a Barbarian into a nasty charger, I'm not sure you can do anything with the Knifeborn that couldn't be done better by some other Tier-4-only build.


EDIT: Also, per your "better weapon" thing, I should clarify: I consider straight enhancement bonuses on weapons to be almost worthless. When I say a better weapon, I don't mean, necessarily, one which has a higher +X-equivalency. I mean one which has more special abilities, which are the bits that count. I'd take a +1 Frost Collision Sword over a +3 Collision Mindblade.

[willpell]

Read the thread, we're past that point and the OP is liking it now.

Well I still think the fluff is awful, perhaps that was what she disagreed with.

[Lans]

I don't really want to. Your comparison, to me, looks like a stock-standard Barbarian versus a somewhat optimized "Knifeborn". Neither is particularly optimized, I assumed they took PA, and that the soulborn used his class abilities in an alright fashion.


For instance, "2 fights a day"? You mean there are Barbarians that don't take Extra Rage? Yes, ones that go for shock trooper at 6th. Or ones that don't have their feats selected. Plus if the barb takes extra rage, the soulborn can take incarnate avatar, and be +1/2 at third level, and +2/3 at fourth, and +3/5 at sixth.


Plus, of course, you have a "minor speed boost" when just about everyone (at least for Tier-discussion purposes) is taking Spirit Lion Totem for Pounce. Stock barbarian is still T4, and that is what I was using, just as I wasn't having the knifeborn create gallons of black lotus extract, I didn't give the barbarian ACFs


I mean, OK, I'll grant you that the Barbarian doesn't scale at all, and the Knifeborn eventually gets some goodies. Of course, the "Barbarian" wouldn't actually take more than 1 level, and that 1 level gave him a whole hell of a lot more than any 3 levels in "Knifeborn", but that's not really great design either. Pretty sure we don't judge classes by how well they multiclass, and the tier system kicks in properly at about 6th level.




You have several points, but I don't really think you can make a good argument for Tier 4 on the Knifeborn. The Barbarian you're describing isn't what is meant by the Tier 4 assessment, so far as I can tell. I mean, he isn't really "shining," even just at his one thing, which the Tier 4 description says he's supposed to be able to do.
The Barbarian I'm describing is... the Barbarian. If you don't think what I described is T4 then you should take it up with who ever put the Barbarian in the T4 listing.



EDIT: Also, per your "better weapon" thing, I should clarify: I consider straight enhancement bonuses on weapons to be almost worthless. When I say a better weapon, I don't mean, necessarily, one which has a higher +X-equivalency. I mean one which has more special abilities, which are the bits that count. I'd take a +1 Frost Collision Sword over a +3 Collision Mindblade.
+1 is equivalent to frost, or flaming on a two handed weapon. Plus lucky is where its at, with it giving a reroll to every attack sequence for the mindblade.

If you really care about special abilities, the mindblade effectively has the throwing and returning qualities, and for 10k, the cost to go from a +2 weapon to a +3 weapon, you can get a gauntlet to add a +1 ability.

[Answerer]

So your Barbarian didn't take Extra Rage because he was going for Shock Trooper/Dungeoncrasher, but yet you didn't consider the uses of those feats?

They both took Power Attack, but if I skimmed you correctly, it looked like the Knifeborn had Cobalt Power, too. Yeah, he gets a Bonus Feat with which to take it, but arbitrarily deciding that the characters have one of the three feats at that point (and that one feat is the one you need to qualify for the feat that can give you an edge) seems to me to be obviously biased. I'm not saying that the Barbarian automatically wins if you give him the feats back (because again, I really don't care to make the hard-and-fast comparison; I don't consider a single-classed Barbarian to be "good" and wouldn't consider a "fix" to the Soulborn or Soulknife that only got that far to have been "successful" anyway).

And yes, the ACF is a part of what makes the Barbarian its Tier. Not necessarily because every Barbarian ever has it, but because they could. The Soulborn doesn't have an option like that.


So anyway, long and short: I'm not convinced that this Knifeborn is as good as a Barbarian, because your comparison strikes me as biased.

However, I furthermore do not care if it is, because that's still not good enough to me. I wouldn't ever take just Barbarian that long anyway. So my statement that the gestalt "fix" is insufficient still stands, at least for my own personal criteria. Maybe you can jam the Knifeborn into the lower rungs of Tier 4, but it won't impress me because I consider classes on the 4/5 border to be only useful for dipping — and the Knifeborn isn't. The Barbarian is.

Furthermore, I stand behind the statement that the two classes don't synergize particularly well and have exceedingly little to offer each other. HD, BAB, skills, and saves are only important if you have really bad class features, so it's a bad sign that we're even talking about them.

The class, as a whole, seems to save you some money and some feats, and that's it. That's not a good class to my mind, not ever.

[NineThePuma]

Wizard is not a good class in my mind, because it can break the game.

[Answerer]

I don't disagree with that statement in the least, nor did I give any indication that I did. I have only played one Wizard ever, and he lost spellcasting levels.

However, there is a very wide spread between a Wizard and Knifeborn. I would not advocate going to either extreme.


My main point isn't that the Knifeborn cannot be played, enjoyable, in a group of a similar power level. It can be. My main point is that it is only marginally better than either of the classes mixed into it, and therefore pretty weak as a general fix. You've only bumped it up a tiny bit, so there are very few groups in which it is playable where it wasn't before.

[MeeposFire]

My biggest complaint is that they should have made the maximum capacity a more even distribution such as +1 every 5 levels or something like that rather than the mostly random looking way it is done in the book.

[JadePhoenix]

Well I still think the fluff is awful, perhaps that was what she disagreed with.

Indeed. I love incarnum fluff. This was basically the first time I saw someone not liking the fluff.

[Big Fau]

Indeed. I love incarnum fluff. This was basically the first time I saw someone not liking the fluff.

Not mine. I've seen it on every forum I lurk at, although most people just complain about how everything in the book has to be related to the color blue.

[Piggy Knowles]

Not mine. I've seen it on every forum I lurk at, although most people just complain about how everything in the book has to be related to the color blue.

Ha, yeah. I like the fluff in general (although as I mentioned in a previous post, I put my own twist on it). But man am I sick of the color blue...

[Lans]

So your Barbarian didn't take Extra Rage because he was going for Shock Trooper/Dungeoncrasher, but yet you didn't consider the uses of those feats? No, I didn't select the feats, because for the most part any feat the barbarian takes the knife born could also take. Extra rage is one of the exceptions, as well as one that I did not think of. If the barbarian takes that the knife born can close the gap and then exceed between the two during the barbs rage mode even quicker.


They both took Power Attack, but if I skimmed you correctly, it looked like the Knifeborn had Cobalt Power, too. Yeah, he gets a Bonus Feat with which to take it, but arbitrarily deciding that the characters have one of the three feats at that point (and that one feat is the one you need to qualify for the feat that can give you an edge) seems to me to be obviously biased. Power attack is considered standard on melee builds, and Cobalt Power was for simplicities sakes. Its easier to compare Hit bonus W and damage X vs Hit bonus Y and Damage Z than it is to compare the same variables vs +3 AC, or a bonus on saves.


And yes, the ACF is a part of what makes the Barbarian its Tier. Not necessarily because every Barbarian ever has it, but because they could. The Soulborn doesn't have an option like that. ACFs that change a classes tiers are marked separately or untested, as such pounce doesn't alter the barbarians tier. It maybe the difference between high and low with the knifeborn sitting between them, but that would still leave the knife born in tier 4.




So anyway, long and short: I'm not convinced that this Knifeborn is as good as a Barbarian, because your comparison strikes me as biased.
It was biased towards simplicity, doesn't make it right, but it doesn't mean its wrong either.


So my statement that the gestalt "fix" is insufficient still stands, at least for my own personal criteria. Maybe you can jam the Knifeborn into the lower rungs of Tier 4, but it won't impress me because I consider classes on the 4/5 border to be only useful for dipping — and the Knifeborn isn't. The Barbarian is. I can agree on that. Which is why I also give it the ability to invest essentia into the soulknife, special binds with it, and smite per encounter(A change made to smite abilities in general). Probably just the difference between low tier 4 and mid tier 4.



The class, as a whole, seems to save you some money and some feats, and that's it. That's not a good class to my mind, not ever.
Its not just some money, its about a quarter of your money.

[Akal Saris]

Ha, yeah. I like the fluff in general (although as I mentioned in a previous post, I put my own twist on it). But man am I sick of the color blue...

But what about azure, sapphire, or cerulean? You still like those colors, right? :smalltongue:

I think the book is awesome for 1-3 level dips (especially natural attack builds and totemist), or for the shape soulmeld feat. None of the classes ever appealed to me enough to want to level one on its own.

[Starbuck_II]

Personally I love the Paudrons because the chakra bind to shoulders means no more negative levels.

Life Drinker is a Core item that grants 2 negative toienemies every attack. And It specifically says that being immune is the best way to use it (it otherwise gives you one so constructs/undead use it more often).

Granted you are paying +30 K for a +2 weapon that causes 2 negative levels whenever you hit a foe. Those add up though. Need a way to do multiple attacks though (and incarnate BAB is low).

[Answerer]

It was biased towards simplicity, doesn't make it right, but it doesn't mean its wrong either.
I didn't state (or, at least, did not intend to state) that it was wrong, merely that it was unconvincing. Though I also pointed out (and still hold to) that I don't really want to read through a more thorough argument, because the point is largely moot to my mind (and has a lot to do with personal opinion on exactly where the Tier 4/5 line is drawn).


I can agree on that. Which is why I also give it the ability to invest essentia into the soulknife, special binds with it, and smite per encounter(A change made to smite abilities in general). Probably just the difference between low tier 4 and mid tier 4.
Those are valuable changes, absolutely. Personally, I'd really hate not having any native melds/essentia until 6/8, but at least now the thing has actual, valuable class features.


Its not just some money, its about a quarter of your money.
Yes, I know, but neither Soulknife nor Soulborn gets UMD, and honestly, most of what you can do with your saved money will either be pretty meh (compared to actual class features), or obviate the need for a weapon in the first place if you're going for hardcore wand-o-mancy.

Though it must be said that items generally bore me to tears, and I hate sorting out any character's WBL. I know it can be fiendishly powerful, and I'm sure you can do something with that money that both makes good use of the free weapon and you couldn't do if you had to buy the weapon, but... I just don't care. Because I don't like items. So that is a personal preference/bias that is influencing this. I hadn't even really noticed that myself until just now.

[Particle_Man]

Now I want to play an Azurin Incarnate 20 (neutral good but not with VoP) with all incarnum feats except for bonus essentia. I think I could use gloves of incarnum theft creatively to get points into the incarnum feats when I need to (although I might need a partner, not sure how the rules work on it yet). I don't think I would use Vivicarnum soulmelds though.

This would not be a powerful character but I think I would like the character. Just my personal taste, I guess. Blue is my favourite colour. :smallbiggrin:

Alas, my 3.5 DM is not a fan of learning new magic systems so this may not be an easy sell.

[AmberVael]

Yeah, I think this is on the money. When's a good level to start taking my leave of Incarnate?
Really, the first four levels all pack some decent stuff. I'd probably drop at either 3 or 4 for a low level drop, with preference to level 3.

Level 3, because this level nets you Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (which gives you a very useful bonus to essentia capacity of all soulmelds, which is pretty valuable).

Level 4, because you get another soulmeld, and unlock the next chakra binds (and hey, if you're going for a more melee build, going for even levels isn't going to hurt your BAB).

You may choose to stay to 5 though, as this picks up Rapid Meldshaping, which allows you to swap out soulmelds one per day. Can be pretty useful for versatility purposes. Still, this gets on the expensive side for a "dip."


In all cases, you definitely need to think of what you want out of Incarnate. You can get some decent abilities even if you don't have a lot of essentia, which would make level 3 not as appealing (as it only improves essentia focused abilities, and grants no more melds). If you do want to focus on essentia based abilities, staying to 3 is a very good idea, and you'll also need to find a decent source of essentia, presumably from Bonus Essentia at least, and perhaps some other incarnum feats as well (and maybe go Azurin).

[willpell]

To join in briefly on the tangent, most of which is going over my head, I don't much care for the Soulknife class for fluff reasons (I think it's stupid for much the same reasons that I think Incarnum as written is stupid, but with no hope of reflavoring it to be any better by my definition), but if you do want to improve it, there was one thing I thought of right off the bat: Use Psionic Device. Not Magic, mind, just Psionic. It's the only base class in the EPH which doesn't have any manifesting of its own, so to me it seems obvious that it should be the "psionic Rogue" who uses only the most utilitarian aspects of psionics and thus likes to jury-rig items he finds without bothering to take the time to learn any of his own powers (beyond the mind blade, which grants him the minimal psychic talent needed to easily master psionic devices, while magic devices remain foreign to him).

[Particle_Man]

For what it is worth, it turns out that Azurin can be Neutral, as the Class Substitution description for Azurin Clerics specifically mentions what happens with the lesser power of Neutral Azurin Clerics. I guess Neutral Azurin are simply the Good Drow of Incarnum.

I also checked the FAQ and found out that if you unshape a meld (bloodwar guantlets, or your soulspark dies on you, etc.) you can't use the rapid meldshaping of the incarnate to get another meldshape unless you *also* unshape another soulmeld. Ah well.

Still not sure on whether one can use Gloves of Incarnum Theft to steal essentia from oneself (in order to temporarily put it into an incarnum feat, which would be one way around the "locked in for 24 hours" problem). But 2 incarnates with such gloves could probably steal from each other and do this.

What else, oh there is a way to boost incarnate capacity to 9 pre-epic, if you multiclass with a class that turns undead (so, cleric is the best choice). There is the divine feat that lets you use up a turn undead to gain an essentia and boost the essentia capacity of your melds, feats, etc. by 1 for 1 round. Combine that with incarnate 15 (for the +2 bonus) the right other feat (for +1 to a soul meld) and the right incarnum item (for the other +1 to a soul meld) and an 18th character can get to 9 (whew!), albeit only for 1 round.

[Particle_Man]

Looking at Sapphire Hierarch, I guess the Law and Incarnum domains would be a good way to go for the class. Is there a good prestige class for after one finishes SH, or should one just go back to cleric?

[Particle_Man]

Hmmm . . . I guess one could (with the feat to give one the extra soul meld needed) create an oddball as follows:

LG Duskling Cleric 3/Totemist 1/Sapphire Hierarch 10/Cleric 6

Domains: Law, Incarnum

Feats: Shape Soulmeld, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Divine Soultouch, Open Lesser Chakra, Open Lesser Chakra, Open Greater Shakra, + bonus domain feat Incarnum Spellshaping, + 7 bonus exalted feats (including at least Intuitive Attack).

I haven't fleshed this idea out but I think it could work. I couldn't think of a 2nd prestige class to take after finishing SH. To be honest I am more familiar with the incarnate side of things than the totemist side of things, so am not sure what soulmelds to go for (or to get with Shape Soulmeld) but the general idea is there.

Depending on how strict one is with Vow of Poverty, this would restrict a lot of spells that require Divine Focus and the turn undead ability could only be used to fuel the Divine Soultouch feat.

Amusingly, he would from his vow have the ability to hide his alignment from detection spells, but somehow I think an observer could figure it out. :smallsmile:

So is this *too* odd or just odd enough? Can one be sqeaky exalted good and super-lawful or would this turn into a "you cannot serve two masters" problem?

[tyckspoon]

So is this *too* odd or just odd enough? Can one be sqeaky exalted good and super-lawful or would this turn into a "you cannot serve two masters" problem?

Rules-wise it's not a problem; Sapphire Hierarch has nigh-paladinish fluff with regards to Law, but there's no mechanical enforcement of it. You don't take on a code of conduct, and you can't fall or become an Ex-Hierarch (at least, not without changing alignment altogether.) So if you have to do something less than strictly Lawful in service of Good, that's ok.

From a roleplaying standpoint, it might be a bit obnoxious at times, but I think it'll work out- Law, oddly enough, is flexible enough to stand out of the way and let you prioritize Good if the two are in conflict. And you aren't intended to be a platonic ideal representation of Law, after all- you aren't the Sapphire Eidolon, it's just a thing you perceive as worthy of emulation.

[willpell]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though the alignment restrictions on Incarnate melds are specific to the Incarnate class rather than to the soulmelds. Does that mean that if I build a True Neutral fighter with the Shape Soulmeld feat, he can have an Incarnate Weapon? Could he choose from any of the four alignment-based options (Good Hammer, Chaos Axe, Law Sword, Evil Flail), without actually being that alignment? Or even create a different weapon altogether? (I'm not a big fan of the way RAW restricts your options and am likely to houserule it anyway, but I still would like to know whether it is possible outside of my rulings.)

[Answerer]

You are correct about those restrictions, so far as I can tell.

However, a True Neutral person would get no benefit, as it specifically says "If you are Lawful, you get this. If you are Good, you get this. If you are Chaotic, you get this. If you are Evil, you get this." Since a True Neutral character is none of those things, they get nothing.

An LG, CG, LE, or CE character should get two weapons, though.

[Particle_Man]

An LG, CG, LE, or CE character should get two weapons, though.

Or some wacky new double-weapons! If you thought a dire flail was strange, how about a half-dire-flail? :smallcool:

[Particle_Man]

Rules-wise it's not a problem; Sapphire Hierarch has nigh-paladinish fluff with regards to Law, but there's no mechanical enforcement of it. You don't take on a code of conduct, and you can't fall or become an Ex-Hierarch (at least, not without changing alignment altogether.) So if you have to do something less than strictly Lawful in service of Good, that's ok.

From a roleplaying standpoint, it might be a bit obnoxious at times, but I think it'll work out- Law, oddly enough, is flexible enough to stand out of the way and let you prioritize Good if the two are in conflict. And you aren't intended to be a platonic ideal representation of Law, after all- you aren't the Sapphire Eidolon, it's just a thing you perceive as worthy of emulation.

Maybe the conflict would come with Vow of Obedience? Or could there be a "rider" clause in "I only will obey you if you give non-evil commands" kinda like the "no war crimes" thing in the armed forces?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Or some wacky new double-weapons! If you thought a dire flail was strange, how about a half-dire-flail? :smallcool:

So a normal flail? :smalltongue:

[Particle_Man]

Or rather a sword-flail. Or an axe-flail. The good guys get a sword-hammer or axe-hammer (wait, don't dwarves already have something like this?).

Screw it, rule of cool says I am house-ruling this in there, whether it is RAW or not. :smallcool: Even if the character in question doesn't have TWF, they can just use one end or the other. Too bad about the shield, but they will live.

[Fax Celestis]

Or rather a sword-flail.

...you mean a gyrspike?

http://www.oocities.org/the_real_rakshasa/Gyrspike.GIF

http://i44.tinypic.com/2444qwi.jpg

[Kuulvheysoon]

...you mean a gyrspike?

http://www.oocities.org/the_real_rakshasa/Gyrspike.GIF

http://i44.tinypic.com/2444qwi.jpg

Fax, you are (once again) my hero.

If you hadn't pointed it out, I would have.

But seriously, I don't even see how it's possible to use one of these things without killing yourself.

[hamishspence]

Fax, you are (once again) my hero.

If you hadn't pointed it out, I would have.

But seriously, I don't even see how it's possible to use one of these things without killing yourself.

When striking with the sword edge, hold the chain to the hilt to prevent the flail hitting you (requires quite a narrow hilt for hands to fit around both hilt and chain)

When striking with the flail, just try to keep the sword blade from hitting your body/legs/arms/head.

[Big Fau]

But seriously, I don't even see how it's possible to use one of these things without killing yourself.

As depicted in the A&EG, it isn't safe at all. But as depicted in the first image Fax posted, it is feasibly similar to the kusari-gama. There just need to be more than 9 links of chain between the hilt and the flail head.

[Particle_Man]

Awesome! I mean, the "boring" way to do it would require the LG/LE/CG/CE character to "pick one or the other but not both" when shaping the soul meld, but hey, double-weapons need more love.

Although there is also "incarnate avatar" - should the LG/LE/CG/CE character "pick one or the other but not both", or just get both, or sorta get both but each point of essentia only does one or the other and the thing as a whole is subject to the essentia limit (so if your limit was 4 you could have 3 points in the lawful part and 1 point in the good part, or something), or something else?

[Rubik]

I always just get a bunch of soulmelds that do two things each. Yay LE damage dealers!

[Particle_Man]

The fluff of Sapphire Hierarch is hilarious. They apparently don't like people that use arcane magic to break the laws of the universe, like the law of gravity.

So, that levitating wizard? Clearly a force of chaos that has to be destroyed. :miko:

[Rubik]

The fluff of Sapphire Hierarch is hilarious. They apparently don't like people that use arcane magic to break the laws of the universe, like the law of gravity.

So, that levitating wizard? Clearly a force of chaos that has to be destroyed. :miko:Technically magic is included in the laws of a magical universe and so technically you CAN'T break said laws.

[Psyren]

The fluff of Sapphire Hierarch is hilarious. They apparently don't like people that use arcane magic to break the laws of the universe, like the law of gravity.

So, that levitating wizard? Clearly a force of chaos that has to be destroyed. :miko:

For more hilarity, use the adaptation that lets them switch alignments, then uphold the principles of Chaos.

You will alternate between yelling at people for not using their magic more and simply sitting at home because you can't be arsed, and your god will happily bankroll all of it.

[willpell]

Awesome! I mean, the "boring" way to do it would require the LG/LE/CG/CE character to "pick one or the other but not both" when shaping the soul meld, but hey, double-weapons need more love.

It's possible that the restriction on weapons was intended as balance rather than enforced fluff; a double weapon gives you significantly greater combat options (which is why the base game enforces balance by forcing you to pay 7.5x as much gold for an orc double axe as a battleaxe; yeah they thought that one through real well), so it might be a little borked for the player to be able to get a double weapon that can't be permanently removed from him. Especially since one of the balancing factors on the Incarnate is low BAB and a fighter with Shape Soulmeld doesn't have that problem. It's not gonna put the fighter into tier 1 or anything, but you might find that it gives him an extremely unfair advantage over fighters who don't take that feat.


Although there is also "incarnate avatar" - should the LG/LE/CG/CE character "pick one or the other but not both", or just get both, or sorta get both but each point of essentia only does one or the other and the thing as a whole is subject to the essentia limit (so if your limit was 4 you could have 3 points in the lawful part and 1 point in the good part, or something), or something else?

It would be logical to assume that the corner-alignment guy can Incarnate an Avatar of a demon, devil, archon or eladrin. How to handle the essentia is dubious, but if in doubt D&D in general tends to default to the assumption that Good/Evil is a stronger opposition than Law/Chaos (hence the Paladin having an aura of good but not an aura of law), so it might make sense to just go with the Evil and Good ones even for blends thereof.

[NineThePuma]

Me being me, I tend to face palm and 'Fix' paladins by giving them an Aura of Law and Good, and their Smite Evil becomes Smite Chaotic Evil, where you get benefits of Smite for hitting someone who is evil, or chaotic, and double benefits of they're Chaotic Evil.

It doesn't really make them -better- per say, but it's a nifty little perk my Paladin player appreciates.

[Particle_Man]

Technically magic is included in the laws of a magical universe and so technically you CAN'T break said laws.

Now I could see a war developing between the Sapphire Hierarchs and the worshippers of Wee Jas, with their Ruby Knight Vindicators. Both sides completely convinced that they are right and the other is wrong, of course.

[Answerer]

It's possible that the restriction on weapons was intended as balance rather than enforced fluff; a double weapon gives you significantly greater combat options (which is why the base game enforces balance by forcing you to pay 7.5x as much gold for an orc double axe as a battleaxe; yeah they thought that one through real well), so it might be a little borked for the player to be able to get a double weapon that can't be permanently removed from him. Especially since one of the balancing factors on the Incarnate is low BAB and a fighter with Shape Soulmeld doesn't have that problem. It's not gonna put the fighter into tier 1 or anything, but you might find that it gives him an extremely unfair advantage over fighters who don't take that feat.
What? No, double weapons are all universally terrible (barring that one Eberron PrC that's pretty good, Revenant Blade maybe?), it wouldn't be much of an advantage at all, really.


It would be logical to assume that the corner-alignment guy can Incarnate an Avatar of a demon, devil, archon or eladrin. How to handle the essentia is dubious, but if in doubt D&D in general tends to default to the assumption that Good/Evil is a stronger opposition than Law/Chaos (hence the Paladin having an aura of good but not an aura of law), so it might make sense to just go with the Evil and Good ones even for blends thereof.
I think the Incarnate is supposed to be explicitly an exception to that, though.

[willpell]

What? No, double weapons are all universally terrible

Huh; they sure seem useful to me, being able to attack twice as often at only a -2 penalty if you have TWF, and getting double mileage out of insane Strength bonuses and/or various buffs.


I think the Incarnate is supposed to be explicitly an exception to that, though.

If so, it failed miserably. Soulmelds for the Soulborn are divided into two lists - "you can use this if you're good" and "you can use this if you're evil", with lots of melds appearing on both lists. Incarnates and Totemists get three lists, one if you're Good and one if you're Evil, with the third containing no unique melds and being equally applicable to Lawful or Chaotic (or True Neutral, for Totemists) characters. The whole necrocarnum thing and the fact that those soul-crystal thingies come from the Positive Energy Plane further reinforce that the War Between Good And EvilTM is still the chief issue in an incarnum campaign; rilkans and skarns are their only nod to Law vs. Chaos, and they clearly made no attempt to make Law or Chaos incarnates more than slightly playable (Chaos in particular being infuriating since its Incarnate Avatar and its Incarnum Radiance don't do the same thing, unlike all three other alignments).

-----------NEW CONTENT-----------

I'm dealing with Soulspark Familiar for the first time and finding several things don't seem to be clear.

1. The alignment descriptor on soulsparks lists them as having Incarnate alignments, and I'd assume an Incarnate who shapes one will make it the same alignment as himself (though there's some doubt on that, as he can choose to give it an Aligned Weapon for any of the four, even its own or his own; it's not explicitly stated that he can't exercise the same freedom of choice himself, ending up as a good Incarnate with a Chaotic soulspark that blasts Evil foes who can't overcome its damage reduction). But what about a Soulborn? They get Soulspark Familiar too, so should my pseudo-Paladin have a Good 'spark or a Lawful one? Does she get to choose? Can she shape one of each (not allowed per RAW but it seems thematically fitting) and have them argue with each other from her shoulders? (not that they talk of course, it'd just be a lot of flashing and "empathic communication", whatever that means in game terms).

2. Should I assume that the Soul Blast's "range of 5 feet" is meant to mean "range increment of 5 feet", meaning a -2 on the attack roll for every additional increment (presuming a maximum of 10 increments as with a projectile weapon)? If not the Spark is pretty useless; not only does it have to move next to its opponent to blast, probably getting an AoO as it approaches and definitely getting one if it moves away after (and it can't do both anyway since it lacks Shot on the Run or Spring Attack or anything like that), but it unshapes if it's more than 2 squares away from the master at the end of turn, so it can't attack anything further than 3 squares away without suiciding.

3. There seem to be a lot of dubious things in the monster design for the four levels of Soulspark which don't appear to follow the monster rules. Aside from an obvious typo in the Least Soulspark's AC, the big thing that stood out is that the Soul Blast's damage goes up as the 'spark's HD does, and in fact jumps from d8 straight to d12 as you go from a Standard Soulspark (ugh) to a Greater one. The Improve Natural Attack feat could account for one of these increases if the soulspark had it, but he doesn't, and I know of no mechanical explanation other than fiat why the damage would increase while the creature remains Tiny and doesn't change creature types.

------OTHER NEW CONTENT-------

By the way, it occurs to me to wonder - when you bind something (like an Incarnate Avatar) to your Soul chakra, you can't gain the benefits of magic armor, but can you still wear armor (magic or otherwise) and apply its physical protection to your AC? Not that it matters much at level 20, but still.

[Essence_of_War]

------OTHER NEW CONTENT-------

By the way, it occurs to me to wonder - when you bind something (like an Incarnate Avatar) to your Soul chakra, you can't gain the benefits of magic armor, but can you still wear armor (magic or otherwise) and apply its physical protection to your AC? Not that it matters much at level 20, but still.

No. The soul chakra occupies the same body slot that armor occupies.

This is a strong motivation to take "Split Chakra" at 18th if you'd care to wear armor. :smalltongue:

[gkathellar]

But seriously, I don't even see how it's possible to use one of these things without killing yourself.

It wouldn't be.


When striking with the sword edge, hold the chain to the hilt to prevent the flail hitting you (requires quite a narrow hilt for hands to fit around both hilt and chain)

When striking with the flail, just try to keep the sword blade from hitting your body/legs/arms/head.

Not feasible.


As depicted in the A&EG, it isn't safe at all. But as depicted in the first image Fax posted, it is feasibly similar to the kusari-gama. There just need to be more than 9 links of chain between the hilt and the flail head.

Again - nope, not considering how that real world weapon works.

[Psyren]

No. The soul chakra occupies the same body slot that armor occupies.

This is a strong motivation to take "Split Chakra" at 18th if you'd care to wear armor. :smalltongue:

It depends, actually. While bound soulmelds always seal you off from the magical benefits of items that occupy the same slot, they don't always physically prevent items from being worn. MoI pg. 51:


When you bind a soulmeld to a chakra, it usually fuses to your body in the location corresponding to that chakra. It prevents you from gaining any benefit from a magic item that occupies the corresponding body slot. (In many cases, it also prevents you from physically wearing such a magic item, as dictated by common sense and the description of the soul meld in question.)

The "common sense" ruling can be tough to adjudicate, but so long as the soulmeld's description does not forbid it and you wear nonmagical gear, you should be able to gain some benefit by RAW. Here is Incarnate Avatar's bind description:


Your body transforms into the appearance of your incarnate avatar. There is no longer any distinction between its hands and yours,
its feet and yours, it's heart and yours. You are imbued with the purest essence of your alignment - it fills your soul and spurs you to action. At the same time, it grants you greater power to help you live out your convictions.

For all intents and purposes, IA fuses into your skin - that shouldn't interfere with any of your clothing or armor at all.

Split Chakra is useful as it allows you to wear magical gear, but if all you want is (say) an AC boost, you should be able to wear masterwork armor over your bound IA without problems.

[Essence_of_War]

It depends, actually. While bound soulmelds always seal you off from the magical benefits of items that occupy the same slot, they don't always physically prevent items from being worn. MoI pg. 51:
...
Split Chakra is useful as it allows you to wear magical gear, but if all you want is (say) an AC boost, you should be able to wear masterwork armor over your bound IA without problems.

Yeah. What I meant was that binding incarnate avatar occupies the body magic item slot that magical armor would occupy, as I figured that at 20th level he likely had something mildly more interesting than a masterwork breastplate in mind. But certainly a good point :smalltongue:

[Particle_Man]

Technically magic is included in the laws of a magical universe and so technically you CAN'T break said laws.

Yeah but they already fight "chaos" spells and "chaos" magic, so this would be part of the deal as anti-gravity being the "wrong" magic because it "fights" the "proper" laws. Perhaps the wizards in support of the eidolon take transmutation as a banned school.

That is why I think it is perfectly possible for LN orgs to fight each other, as each thinks it knows what the "proper" laws are, and thus it is possible to have SHs vs. Ruby Knight Vindicators fighting each other over control of a magical box canyon somewhere (you know, Red vs. Blue). :)

On the other hand, it looks like "air walk" (example SH character has it) is ok, so maybe "levitation" is too (and the soulmelds that allow flight, feather fall, etc.). I guess that presumably SHs would focus more on the demons and less on that anti-gravity spellcasters, unless it was some huge permanent place of anti-gravity, similar for weather spells (it would have to be something huge, disrupting the ability of farmers to harvest their crops, etc.). Gotta prioritize, especially when you are part of a tiny little cult and there are so many chaotic things to worry about.

I guess SH's are ok with devils? At least not as worried about them? Maybe their Eidolon is from a time before the devils fell, back when they originally were fighting the demons, before the pre-devils got corrupted by evil?

[Particle_Man]

Weird, Azurin Clerics get to add knowledge (planes) to their class skill on the racial substitution levels . . .

. . . regular clerics already have that, though. :smallsmile: Maybe this should be replaced with a small bonus to that skill?

Also, I wonder why the example Sapphire Hierarch chose fire as one of her two domains, when incarnum was available as a choice? Is this a case of the books chapters being written by different people so that the left hand knows not what the right hand is doing?

[Answerer]

Is this a case of the books chapters being written by different people so that the left hand knows not what the right hand is doing?
That is how most WotC books are written, yes. Especially when it comes to example characters (which are notoriously terrible).

[Necroticplague]

That is how most WotC books are written, yes. Especially when it comes to example characters (which are notoriously terrible).

*cough*fleshcrafter*cough*

[willpell]

Yeah. What I meant was that binding incarnate avatar occupies the body magic item slot that magical armor would occupy, as I figured that at 20th level he likely had something mildly more interesting than a masterwork breastplate in mind.

I specifically said nonmagical armor; I didn't even think masterwork (though certainly mithril would be preferable to iron - not that weight matters much when you can afford twelve bags of holding, but certainly the armor check penalty going down helps a lot).

We don't know for sure whether she's bound, but the picture of the astral deva girl that's on the IA/IW page certainly seems to be wearing armor while also wearing the avatar. (This is my favorite picture in the entire book, and not only because it's the only one which doesn't depict incarnum as blue.)

[sonofzeal]

Again - nope, not considering how that real world weapon works.
I could imagine using one, though I'd want the chain to be even longer and the blade to be a bit shorter with a different guard style. I don't think it would necessarily be a good idea even then, but I could at least make a decent go of it with some basic Meteor Hammer that I picked up years ago. The chain has potential to be problematic in that enemies could grab it and interfere with my sword arm, but then there's the possibility of getting them tangled...

Eh. Well, at least I wouldn't be killing myself. I'll still take a good spear any day though.

[Essence_of_War]

I specifically said nonmagical armor; I didn't even think masterwork (though certainly mithril would be preferable to iron - not that weight matters much when you can afford twelve bags of holding, but certainly the armor check penalty going down helps a lot).

I apologize for my poor reading comprehension :smalltongue:

[eggs]

I'm dealing with Soulspark Familiar for the first time and finding several things don't seem to be clear.

1. The alignment descriptor on soulsparks lists them as having Incarnate alignments, and I'd assume an Incarnate who shapes one will make it the same alignment as himself (though there's some doubt on that, as he can choose to give it an Aligned Weapon for any of the four, even its own or his own; it's not explicitly stated that he can't exercise the same freedom of choice himself, ending up as a good Incarnate with a Chaotic soulspark that blasts Evil foes who can't overcome its damage reduction). But what about a Soulborn? They get Soulspark Familiar too, so should my pseudo-Paladin have a Good 'spark or a Lawful one? Does she get to choose?The "Alignment" descriptor in the Soulmeld seems to clinch the Familiar's alignment to one available to the meldshaper. For Incarnates, that restricts the alignment to match the Incarnate's; for Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar) users and Soulborn, that leaves two options. In practice, I'd leave the choice up to the players unless there was a good narrative reason to hijack their Soulspark summoning.

Can she shape one of each (not allowed per RAW but it seems thematically fitting) and have them argue with each other from her shoulders? (not that they talk of course, it'd just be a lot of flashing and "empathic communication", whatever that means in game terms). It sounds like you know the RAW answer. I'd also avoid it in terms of "actually doing it in-game" (a different question than RAW) because it would involve lots of talking-to-yourself as DM in order to shove an immovable spotlight at one player - likely without a story-moving result.

2. Should I assume that the Soul Blast's "range of 5 feet" is meant to mean "range increment of 5 feet"No. It's a range, not a range increment. It blasts 5 ft total. And yes, that's terrible - part of my previous writing off of Necrocarnum Zombies.

3. There seem to be a lot of dubious things in the monster design for the four levels of Soulspark which don't appear to follow the monster rules. Aside from an obvious typo in the Least Soulspark's AC, the big thing that stood out is that the Soul Blast's damage goes up as the 'spark's HD does, and in fact jumps from d8 straight to d12 as you go from a Standard Soulspark (ugh) to a Greater one. The Improve Natural Attack feat could account for one of these increases if the soulspark had it, but he doesn't, and I know of no mechanical explanation other than fiat why the damage would increase while the creature remains Tiny and doesn't change creature types.It's not a natural weapon; it's a supernatural attack like the Arrowhawk's blast. Neither size nor INA affect its damage.

[Psyren]

SSF is terrible, except possibly at early levels when a 2d8+4 hp chassis with +5 Initiative, passable AC and fast healing makes it a decent tank. If your DM doesn't allow you to (a) invest essentia to increase its range*, (b) Share Soulmelds with it, or (c) both, I would ignore it entirely.

*(And by "range" I mean both that of its soulblast attack, and the distance it can be away from you before unshaping.)


It's also another victim of poor editing. Aligned attack allows it to bypass DR, but it should do that anyway because Soulblast is supernatural and thus magical.

[Big Fau]

Soulsparks should have been the Chaotic Incarnate's ranged attack option (Dissolving Spittle just doesn't cut it), although I agree with what Psyren said.


Who's idea was it to have the Chaotic Incarnate ranged/skirmish focused, and then turn their Incarnate Weapon into a melee weapon?

[Essence_of_War]

Who's idea was it to have the Chaotic Incarnate ranged/skirmish focused, and then turn their Incarnate Weapon into a melee weapon?

Yeah...that was a facepalingly bad decision.

It seems to scream "WE REALLY DIDN'T TEST THIS!".

[Necroticplague]

Who's idea was it to have the Chaotic Incarnate ranged/skirmish focused, and then turn their Incarnate Weapon into a melee weapon?

Well, if their incarnate weapon was ranged, you would have to deal with issues related to ammo, and it would be definitively better than the other 3, which are all melee. Although, I do agree, it would make more sense if it was something similar to an "spirit bow."

[Big Fau]

Well, if their incarnate weapon was ranged, you would have to deal with issues related to ammo, and it would be definitively better than the other 3, which are all melee. Although, I do agree, it would make more sense if it was something similar to an "spirit bow."

A simple throwing axe would work, as the Incarnate Weapon effectively has a built-in Returning property. But no, they had to make it a battleaxe, which has no range increment.

[Psyren]

Well, if their incarnate weapon was ranged, you would have to deal with issues related to ammo, and it would be definitively better than the other 3, which are all melee.

I'm not so sure; It takes a lot of feats to make archery viable even if you do get a magic bow with unlimited ammo. I mean, Soulbow gets magic arrows that you can pile buffs onto AND multi-wield AND gets to apply a stat to ranged damage, and it still barely cracks T3 after all that. So I don't think giving Chaos Incarnates a ranged weapon would have been so bad.

And I agree with Big Fau. Maybe take the Throw Anything feat or something...?

[Big Fau]

And I agree with Big Fau. Maybe take the Throw Anything feat or something...?

Which is the issue: Chaos Incarnates have to use feats in order to get their basic combat option online at all, whereas Lawful or Evil ones just need the support feats that noncasters normally use. It's as if they made the only ranged weapon in the game an Exotic weapon. It's a tax on an all ready feat-starved class. They end up being better off with an actual weapon instead of trying to make the Incarnate Weapon work.

Hell, the Skillful enhancement ensures Chaos Archer Incarnates are up to snuff, save for the normal problems archers usually have.

[willpell]

My first character out of the book was an intentionally dumb Chaos Incarnate, and I deliberately went for throwing the battleaxe, not because of the avatar (he doesn't have that among his usual soulmelds), but just because that seems like the thing to do when you have a weapon that comes back to your hand every round. (I can't wait to make an Evil Incarnate so he can throw his flail. Just try to figure that one out; the -4 nonproficiency penalty doesn't seem adequate.) What bothers me more isn't so much the mismatch between Incarnate Avatar and the aura, but just the flavor offness. Why does looking like a blue slaad with big claws on its hands make you a better rangestriker? And why is it that, having slogged your way through 20 levels so that you can bind your soul chakra, your awesome benefit for combining your avatar and your regular body into a single harmonious whole is running fast? The Good and Evil get to fly, Lawful is a Terminator; why can't I teleport or something?

Doing a soulbow would seem fitting in particular for Dusklings, who seem like they ought to lean chaotic as a species of Proud Warrior Race Guys. Battleaxe is fine by me for the guy I made, although what he really wants is an Orc Double Axe for maximum carnage. Preferably one that's about twelve feet long, and weightless of course. Then all he needs is a horned helmet and some armor spikes (why is there not a soulmeld for armor?) and he can start working on that throne of skulls.

[willpell]

So it looks to me as if the Chaos Incarnate is even worse than I thought - at 7th level he can Share Incarnum Radiance, but I don't think this actually works when you're giving out speed. The Shared Radiance only benefits allies within 30 feet, so if Mr. Chaos turns it on and gives his 120 (or fewer if the GM counts the area as a circle) orc buddies +20 speed, which they lose as soon as they move outside the 30-foot area, the front rows can't even move without leaving the area of effect. So they effectively still only have their normal move, and if he keeps moving to stay in position near them, he can't move faster than the slowest member of the group. So how are any of them benefitting from the radiance? At best a row toward the rear of the cluster could move to stay within the affected area (assuming they can even move in a crowd like this, I'm not sure how the rules on occuppying an ally's space work when you're not in combat time yet), but some rows would either fall out of the "envelope" and never catch up or would have to spend some rounds not moving at all in order to move a little less than double their usual speed the rest of the time - it really doesn't seem as though this works very well.

Perhaps I'm not being Chaotic enough with my thinking here, maybe there's some way that the orcs can kind of circle around the Incarnate to remain within the "speed field", but even then I'm not sure how he can be moving at the same time (especially given the level of coordination and patience you would expect from an army of orcs). Do the rules allow an army's members to move simultaneously without taking separate actions on different initiatives? If not then I don't think there's any way this power can work, because anyone who didn't start out behind the Incarnate couldn't possibly use the extra move he gives them, and even those who did probably couldn't use it all.

[willpell]

This is a bit off-topic, but the Chaos Incarnate which I've been talking about just picked up the Leadership feat, and I don't see anything in the DMG clarifying whether his Cloak of Charisma bonus applies to his Leadership score. It seems to stand to reason that it should, but this creates the possibility that he could take it off and have some of his followers instantly desert because he just doesn't look awesome enough without his cape on. I'm tempted to houserule exactly this because of Rule of Funny, but what's the official answer?

[Benly]

Do the rules allow an army's members to move simultaneously without taking separate actions on different initiatives? If not then I don't think there's any way this power can work, because anyone who didn't start out behind the Incarnate couldn't possibly use the extra move he gives them, and even those who did probably couldn't use it all.

I'm fairly sure everyone could ready actions to move as a cluster, but (a) you wouldn't be doing anything other than moving and (b) it's not really a very Chaotic-feeling tactic.

[Amphetryon]

Given that most 3.5 D&D character rules appear to be designed with an eye toward a 4 - 6 person party, I'm not especially surprised that a niche case with 100+ followers tends to break down some of the viability of your soulmeld choices.

[Starbuck_II]

This is a bit off-topic, but the Chaos Incarnate which I've been talking about just picked up the Leadership feat, and I don't see anything in the DMG clarifying whether his Cloak of Charisma bonus applies to his Leadership score. It seems to stand to reason that it should, but this creates the possibility that he could take it off and have some of his followers instantly desert because he just doesn't look awesome enough without his cape on. I'm tempted to houserule exactly this because of Rule of Funny, but what's the official answer?

Thaty is how it works. So most Maguc item users never take off their magic stuff (prestigidation cleans stuff so you don't have to).

[Big Fau]

Perhaps I'm not being Chaotic enough with my thinking here, maybe there's some way that the orcs can kind of circle around the Incarnate to remain within the "speed field", but even then I'm not sure how he can be moving at the same time (especially given the level of coordination and patience you would expect from an army of orcs). Do the rules allow an army's members to move simultaneously without taking separate actions on different initiatives? If not then I don't think there's any way this power can work, because anyone who didn't start out behind the Incarnate couldn't possibly use the extra move he gives them, and even those who did probably couldn't use it all.

Check Heroes of Battle.

[willpell]

Lucky Dice seems to imply fluffwise that you need a hand free to use it, but I don't see anything mechanically stating that you do. It's not clear whether the dice are actually physically present like other soulmelds or are just a phantasm of incarnum representing the "metaphor" which the text calls them. If your brother is hanging onto the edge of a cliff with his left hand, your left hand is holding his right hand, and your right hand is holding your sister, can you get a +1 luck bonus on whatever roll this scenario might call for?

(Assume for the sake of this example that you have no desire to drop your sister off a cliff. I realize that people's situation may vary.)

Also, if you're a Soulborn just getting her first soulmeld at level 4, your character level indicates that it can hold essentia, but you don't "gain access to your personal essentia pool" until level 6. Given that you got a free Incarnum feat at level 3, and it comes with an essentia, can you stop investing essentia in your feat and start investing it in your snazzy new soulmeld, or do you have to wait until the class "expects" you to have essentia of your own?

[Fax Celestis]

Lucky Dice seems to imply fluffwise that you need a hand free to use it, but I don't see anything mechanically stating that you do. It's not clear whether the dice are actually physically present like other soulmelds or are just a phantasm of incarnum representing the "metaphor" which the text calls them. If your brother is hanging onto the edge of a cliff with his left hand, your left hand is holding his right hand, and your right hand is holding your sister, can you get a +1 luck bonus on whatever roll this scenario might call for?I've always treated it like a glove.


Also, if you're a Soulborn just getting her first soulmeld at level 4, your character level indicates that it can hold essentia, but you don't "gain access to your personal essentia pool" until level 6. Given that you got a free Incarnum feat at level 3, and it comes with an essentia, can you stop investing essentia in your feat and start investing it in your snazzy new soulmeld, or do you have to wait until the class "expects" you to have essentia of your own?

You can start immediately.

[Darth Stabber]

I am a huge fan Totemist, both mechanics and most of the fluff, though it would be better if it wasn't limited to magical beasts.

Aside from that, I can't say I am 100% bullish on the rest of incarnum. In my mind incarnate and Binder occupy the same general space, for some reason I can't bring myself to play an incarnate when binder is on the table. I realize that they are disparate in fluff and to some extent fluff, but I can't seperate the headspace they occupy.

I want to like soulborn, but when you make crappy paladin analogue, you could at least aim for a higher tier.

The heavy focus on blue is aggrevating.

The feats are a mixed bag, but I like the thought behind it, and some of them are very useful. And whenever I have to take dodge I usually end up with midnight dodge.

Finally, a tiny nitpick: I wanted their to be a chaotic prestige class to oppose Sapphire Hierarch, like Orange Egalitarian, or some such thing for shiggles.

[Chronos]

The fluff problem I have with incarnum is that it doesn't seem to show up anywhere. My personal standard for a base class is that you should be able to come up with three examples of characters from history, fiction, or myth (not counting D&D fiction, and not all from the same source) that would be best modeled by that class. Most classes, that's not a problem: Ranger, for instance, could be Robin Hood, Natty Bumppo, or Simo Hayak (or dozens of other examples). Rogue could be Fafhrd, Oliver Twist, or Sherlock Holmes. Incarnum, though, it's a real stretch to find anyone who matches.

[Necroticplague]

The fluff problem I have with incarnum is that it doesn't seem to show up anywhere. My personal standard for a base class is that you should be able to come up with three examples of characters from history, fiction, or myth (not counting D&D fiction, and not all from the same source) that would be best modeled by that class. Most classes, that's not a problem: Ranger, for instance, could be Robin Hood, Natty Bumppo, or Simo Hayak (or dozens of other examples). Rogue could be Fafhrd, Oliver Twist, or Sherlock Holmes. Incarnum, though, it's a real stretch to find anyone who matches.

Yoh, Ryunosuke, and Tao are easy matches, just change the names of some things and its almost perfect match.

[Psyren]

Also, if you're a Soulborn just getting her first soulmeld at level 4, your character level indicates that it can hold essentia, but you don't "gain access to your personal essentia pool" until level 6. Given that you got a free Incarnum feat at level 3, and it comes with an essentia, can you stop investing essentia in your feat and start investing it in your snazzy new soulmeld, or do you have to wait until the class "expects" you to have essentia of your own?

Max essentia per soulmeld depends on hit dice, not class level. Some class features increase it but it is never 0.


The fluff problem I have with incarnum is that it doesn't seem to show up anywhere. My personal standard for a base class is that you should be able to come up with three examples of characters from history, fiction, or myth (not counting D&D fiction, and not all from the same source) that would be best modeled by that class. Most classes, that's not a problem: Ranger, for instance, could be Robin Hood, Natty Bumppo, or Simo Hayak (or dozens of other examples). Rogue could be Fafhrd, Oliver Twist, or Sherlock Holmes. Incarnum, though, it's a real stretch to find anyone who matches.

Totemist is easy, anyone that takes on bestial aspects to fight will fit. The only difference is the focus on magical beasts, whereas "Druids" tend to favor actual animals, and later plants/elementals.

Incarnate is anyone with "ancestral spirit guide," though most of the crunch is pretty unique to D&D (like the acid spit and sandals of flying from ancestors.)

[eggs]

Yoh, Ryunosuke, and Tao are easy matches, just change the names of some things and its almost perfect match.
The fact that those names mean nothing to me only strengthens Chronos's complaint, from where I'm sitting.

[Necroticplague]

The fact that those names mean nothing to me only strengthens Chronos's complaint, from where I'm sitting.

And the fact those names mean something to me weakens it, from where I'm standing.

[NineThePuma]

And the fact those names mean something to me weakens it, from where I'm standing.

Could you enlighten me please?

All three sound like names from... eastern mythos, and sadly I'm only really familiar with the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which isn't exactly high fantasy.

[Particle_Man]

Incarnum, though, it's a real stretch to find anyone who matches.

The U.S.S. Enterprise. Sometimes you put more power to the shields, sometimes more power to the phasers. :)

[Benly]

The fact that those names mean nothing to me only strengthens Chronos's complaint, from where I'm sitting.

They're all characters from one anime. Which I guess is a point in favor of incarnum if you want to run a Shaman King game?

There are some superheroes from live-action Japanese TV that you can better model using incarnum than other D&D mechanics, so there's that I guess. Most of them can't change out their powers every day, but that's a chronic weakness of D&D - most fictional and fantasy wizards are fairly specialized and consistent in their capabilities, making them more "mechanically" like sorcerers than wizards.

edit: Actually, the Enterprise comment makes me think that the allocation system also matches a couple of action anime, although the aesthetics not so much - Hunter x Hunter in particular likes to make a point of emphasizing that characters need to decide where they're focusing their power on-the-fly as a tactical part of combat.

[Big Fau]

Incarnum feels more like Armored Core 4 than Shaman King to me.

[Tvtyrant]

Incarnum feels more like Armored Core 4 than Shaman King to me.

I always wanted to play an Incarnate//Synthesis Summoner so I could play a guy in a magical mech.

[Fax Celestis]

I always wanted to play an Incarnate//Synthesis Summoner so I could play a guy in a magical mech.

You should look at this (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ogd?Psionics-Expanded-Unlimited-Possibilities), then.

Yes, that is a blue inside of an astral construct. It is a base class.

[Particle_Man]

Something cool I just thought of as a potential encounter:

"You see a man in a shadowy room, every so often a shadow flits up to the man, who laughs and ignores it as he sits and drinks. The man has eyes that are orbs of inky blackness."

Basically, a CE Soulborn 2 (or more) in a room of shadows. Since he can't lose strength by any means, he is immune to them (though they keep trying!). Other people, of course, are not.

I mean highly situational, yes, but this could be a level 2 character looking that badass!

[willpell]

Basically, a CE Soulborn 2 (or more) in a room of shadows. Since he can't lose strength by any means, he is immune to them (though they keep trying!). Other people, of course, are not.

I can totally see this. In my mind, Evil characters are somewhat predisposed toward self-destructive spitefulness, so I can completely believe that the shadows would ignore the fresh "food" that finally walked into the room, despite being extremely "hungry", and would offer to do a favor for the characters if they will kill the guy who has been thwarting them. He's CE so they have a hard time justifying why he deserves to live, but he hasn't actually done anything (arguably he needs to do CE things now and again to keep his alignment, but he might well be a "sunday churchgoer" and not especially bad, or someone Belkar-esque who only harms things even worse than himself), and will be certain to behave worse if he survives their attack (especially toward them in particular).

[willpell]

The fluff problem I have with incarnum is that it doesn't seem to show up anywhere. My personal standard for a base class is that you should be able to come up with three examples of characters from history, fiction, or myth (not counting D&D fiction, and not all from the same source) that would be best modeled by that class. Most classes, that's not a problem: Ranger, for instance, could be Robin Hood, Natty Bumppo, or Simo Hayak (or dozens of other examples). Rogue could be Fafhrd, Oliver Twist, or Sherlock Holmes. Incarnum, though, it's a real stretch to find anyone who matches.

There aren't very many analogues for the material as written, and none that are exact since the whole book is very D&D-specific (totemists being based on magical beasts and the other two on alignments, pretty impossible to exactly translate those from anything else). But there are definite parallels to some modern fictional trends, mostly in anime, of the idea of fairly fixed personal "power items" that you pull out of Katanaspace on command and which don't obey the laws of physics so much as the Rule of Cool. Look for example at the fact that Incarnate Weapon specifically says the weapon looks oversized but handles like it's normal size - then look at Cloud of Final Fantasy 7 and try to convince yourself that he can actually lift that sword if it's made out of real metal. There are also certain parallels to the superheroes Thor (the Incarnate Weapon for Good is a warhammer!) and Green Lantern (if you pretend Rapid Meldshaping was a swift action and usable infinite times per day), and probably others (Wonder Woman's bracers? might be reaching a bit but it seems vaguely plausible). Still, the entire book was intended to be fairly original, with something of a new-agey feel (hence the chakra binds and almost as much "crystal power" as in the Psionics Handbooks), not completely out of left field but pretty different from anything out there. By that standard at least, it succeeded brilliantly.....

[JadePhoenix]

The fluff problem I have with incarnum is that it doesn't seem to show up anywhere. My personal standard for a base class is that you should be able to come up with three examples of characters from history, fiction, or myth (not counting D&D fiction, and not all from the same source) that would be best modeled by that class. Most classes, that's not a problem: Ranger, for instance, could be Robin Hood, Natty Bumppo, or Simo Hayak (or dozens of other examples). Rogue could be Fafhrd, Oliver Twist, or Sherlock Holmes. Incarnum, though, it's a real stretch to find anyone who matches.

SHAMAN KING!

[sonofzeal]

It also has similarities with Hunter X Hunter. If I were to make a homebrew Nen system, it would probably be Incarnum-based, or at least very similar.

[Benly]

It also has similarities with Hunter X Hunter. If I were to make a homebrew Nen system, it would probably be Incarnum-based, or at least very similar.

The overlap seems fairly small to me except for what I noted about allocation-based mechanics. There are some superficial similarities between incarnum and materialization/specialist nen, but nen is simultaneously much wider in its scope of abilities and much more fixed in terms of the abilities any given person manifests - one of the signature qualities of HxH is that it lays out a character's abilities and rules very explicitly and then explores the tactical ramifications of those rules.

The ability to change out soulmelds every day actually breaks incarnum pretty heavily from any fiction that it otherwise resembles. You can emulate certain sorts of superpowers with specific soulmeld combinations, but generally speaking none of the characters that have powers similar to those change their powers around except at major plot points. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is Kamen Rider OOO or Kamen Rider Fourze; a reflavored totemist with some kind of ability to regularly change out what soulmelds he's using mid-fight (per-encounter, perhaps) would arguably reflect OOO's nominal ability set better than a lot of the actual series did.

[JadePhoenix]

The ability to change out soulmelds every day actually breaks incarnum pretty heavily from any fiction that it otherwise resembles.
Not really, that's basically what they do in Shaman King, as I mentioned before. You just need the right spirit, or the right medium, or enough creativity.

[Chronos]

Are any of these fictional analogues soul-based, though? An incarnate isn't just someone who makes magically-constructed equipment; she's someone who makes magically-constructed equipment out of the substance of her own soul.

[Amphetryon]

Are any of these fictional analogues soul-based, though? An incarnate isn't just someone who makes magically-constructed equipment; she's someone who makes magically-constructed equipment out of the substance of her own soul.

How familiar are you with Near East mythology?

[Benly]

Are any of these fictional analogues soul-based, though? An incarnate isn't just someone who makes magically-constructed equipment; she's someone who makes magically-constructed equipment out of the substance of her own soul.

Some of them are. Shaman King is about characters contracting with spirits that form into equipment that they use for fighting, which is pretty close except that as far as I read into it back in the day most characters end up contracted with one particular spirit and only use it a few different ways. Kamen Rider OOO has medallions infused with animal spirits that let him alter his basic form in various combinations of three (eagle eyes, tiger claws, and grasshopper legs for example), which is a reasonably close match for totemists except that he swaps them around on the fly mid-fight.

This sort of underlines the problem that daily swap-arounds create for matching fictional sources: generally either a character simply has fixed powers or the ability to swap them around is used on a tactical level. I can't think of many fictional characters who choose their powers at the start of each day but are locked into those powers for the rest of the day.