Lactantius
2012-03-13, 04:48 AM
Hello fellows!
This is my first thread at gitp, though i am reading this forum since many years.
So: hi, yeah.. :cool:
So, as the thread title says: i need advice concerning my wizard build.
I need to foremention that our group plays at "medium OP level," so we use good builds, but we don't like cheesy stuff which destroy the spirit of the game or is made to "battle the DM."
Furthermore, our adventuring group is pretty small with 3 player characters (including myself).
I mention this cause i think it is important to evaluate the character builds since we have one player less which makes encounters a bit more difficult.
Our DM assists us with a NPC, but it's just an assist, not a full substitute for a 4th team member.
We play in the forgotten realms. The other characters are: a dwarven hammer of moradin with cleric/ordained champion as chassis and a rogue/cleric of tymora which aims for the divine trickster.
We are playing a current adventure and just reached level 6, so yeah, any prestige class decision should be made now.
feats can be retrained, if needed.
Without any further ado, to my build idea:
My wizard concept includes two basic pillars:
1.) Term of "generalist": this does not mean that he may not specialize. I even consider a focused specialist. I think that it is better to kick 3 schools and have a broader and more flexible spell reservoir than some schools which I dont need in the first place.
So, what makes it a generalist? It is the broad and flexible spell arsenal and many minor, wizardish abilites. I like some spontaenous casting stuff and the ability to have an "answer" to the upcoming problems. So, some spontaneous casting by using 15-min-refill, many spell slots and maybe some general prestige classes are important for pillar 1.
2.) Next, I like the idea of an "antimage." The abjuration school description in the complete mage pretty much describes what I like: magic of blocking, undoing and denying.
And the idea that mages are the greatest threat, but that an antimage threatens the mages :)
So, pillar 2 wants "some" antimagic stuff. "Some" because I'm not the big fan of specializing wholly into one aspect. I prefer many different abilites to keep more versatile and flexible.
Okay, that's the stuff which is important for the upcoming build. I dont wanna play some standard build found in the handbooks, I want some of those pillars reflected and not a "high op" char.
He schould be good, a bit strong, but within the flow. Style prevails and matters :)
Now, my current ideas:
Build 1: Targeting the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.
The initiate can fulfill all things i want to to with pillar 2.
But im concerned since the discussion about this prestige class is very controversial. Many call it broken or at least too powerful at all.
I don't wanna use too powerful stuff, but I can only evaluate this class in theory. Practical experience and advices to this class would be cool.
It is important to say that I don't usw the standard build (master specialist/I7) since i wanna fill the previous classes with more general prestige classes (see below) and since i find the master specialist a bit of a lackluster. The minor school esoterica is substituted by a dispelling chord which also gives a +2 competence bonus to dispels (see MIC). To make this up, you must have at least six levels of MS to get a better result (+3).
Caster Level +1 from MS is nice, but can be substituted by one of the general prestige classes i consider (paragnostic apostle: penetrating insight).
So, no master specialist or maximum 3 levels for the feats.
But so far, I plan with focused specialist 5 / filler 4 / initiate of the sevenfold veil 7.
My entry costs are hard (3 feats) and I wonder if this equalizes the powerful initiate I get.
At the second glance, I dont find those feats "wasted" since 2 of them are needed anyways for the Archmage at higher levels. Plus, I dont think that focuses on abjuration are THAT bad. abjuration has some very good SoL and control stuff at the higher levels (spell level 5+) like:
dismissal, banishment, reciprocal gyre (the good CA-version), antimagic ray, arcane turmoil, imprisonment, maw of chaos, refusal, repulsion and wall of good.
Considering the discussion about the power of the initiate I think that purely defense abilites cannot by THAT problem, can it?
It's not like you gain more active powers, it's more about group protection and survival. Since D&D generally doesn't support defense that much, I found the initiate an appealing and interesting class. But, as i mentioned: i want to be careful. Our DM makes her job good, but since she is DMing general pre-gen-adventures, the enemies are much like core stuff...
Well, thats the route to the Initiate.
I would fill the levels 6-9 with some dips of the following prestige classes to give the character some generalist stuff from pillar 1:
fatespinner 2, paragnostic apostle 2 or mage of the arcane order 2.
fatespinner 2 is for level 8 & 9. It hasn't many flavorful stuff and is more mechanical (save DC vs save).
paragnostic apostle is a sage-like class much like the loremaster, but it is easier, cheaper and gives impromptu class abilites. And I like the mundane stuff (4 skill points, search and spot as class skills).
penetrating insight helps the abjuration aspect (+1 dispel and SR checks) while mind over matter gives +2 AC (good but boring, no flavor).
Maybe I take manifest ethos for some blasting spells since it is pretty effective vs evil creatures.
I'm unsure if Mage of the Arcane Order 2 is that good.
Pro: it would support the flavor of my character (he learned at the Lady's College of Silverymoon), +1 metamagic feat, feat prerequisite exchanged (spell focus or spell penetration or cooperative spell, idea taken from the Guild Wizard of Waterdeep). The feat exchange would mesh well with the spell focus I need anyways.
The Mage is included cause I like the spontaneity aspect (pillar 1).
But after a spell analysis I don't see the major advantage.
Most spellpool spells would be utility spells since the spell pool calling takes +1 extra action (bad for combat, though, a Mage can "hold the spell" CL minutes until he uses it, which can be a situational "pre-combat-buff").
But the Limit is harsh (only CL/2 spell grades per day) and I don't see the advantage comparing it with standard 15-min-rememorizing.
It if need utility spells, I have the time to rememorize them.
Only one good advantage I see is the availability of any PHB spell, so, if my wizard hasn't that many spells in his book, he can make up this by calling the spell with spellpool.
All in all, Mage 2 is in competition with paragnostic apostle 2 at Level 6 & 7.
[Houserule idea: if i would change the prerequisite of the MotAO to knowledge 6 ranks, he could qualify already at level 4. Then, I could go like abjurer3/MoAO2/PA2/Fate2/I7. Would that be to cheesy? It would be expensive to get the 2 prereq. feats online at level 4, too.]
Last but not least there is the uncanny forethought feat which is in nearly any aspect better than the Mage of the Arcane Order. But it depletes all of my feats since I need 3 for the I7, 2 for uncanny forethought and maybe 1 metamagic feat. Later, I plan to buy a runestaff and some eternal wands to get more spontaenous casting (which both could substitute the spontaneous quality of UF). Plus, I analyzed my spells per day and came to the conclusion that I would memorize many "no-brainers" as daily routine spells which I can use any time (like fly, slow, haste, mirror image, teleport etc) plus some open slots. The "gain" of uncanny forethought isn't THAT big if you have a broad spell selection, open slots and spontaenous items. So, is uncanny forethought overrated? Would you recommend it for pillar 1 (instead of Mage2?)
Going UF would need some build changes: i would dip the master specialist 2 levels to make up the lost feats a bit.
Build 2: Pure Generlist, no abjuration aspect (no initiate)
Build 2 has no "main prestige class" as goal. Instead, it dips many different prestige classes to get many class features (some with major, some minor benefits).
So, in build 2 i focus wholly on pillar 1 - the generalist. You can also call him an allrounder.
Compared to wizard 5/ filler 4 / veil 7, I gain 7 levels to continue/start other PrC.
The pool of prestige classes includes: fatespinner, mage of the arcane order, paragnostic apostle, wayfarer guide, malconvoker and divine oracle.
This generalist could have some summoning benefits (Malconvoker 5), some diviner benefits (Divine Oracle 2 or 4), all good 4 Fatespinner levels and earlier archmage entry than initiate (level 14 instead of 17).
Pro: many totally different abilites to be a total allrounder.
Con: no real focus or "main prestige class." Question is: is it as good as a pure specialist to use many minor abilites? Build 2 would never see a "real capstone ability."
At least, I could give Summoning a slight focus with Malconvoker 5/6.
The divine oracle's oracle domain seems interesting. But then again, I don't know if I would use that many divinations to justify this class. Though divinations are powerful, I feel that if you use them too often, you make the adventure too easy and the DMs life a hassle.
Well.... thats all so far.
Okay, wow.
This article went very long.
Maybe you see how much i care for a good, medium oped AND flavorful wizard.
I appreciate any comment, help, feedback, advice or idea.
This is my first thread at gitp, though i am reading this forum since many years.
So: hi, yeah.. :cool:
So, as the thread title says: i need advice concerning my wizard build.
I need to foremention that our group plays at "medium OP level," so we use good builds, but we don't like cheesy stuff which destroy the spirit of the game or is made to "battle the DM."
Furthermore, our adventuring group is pretty small with 3 player characters (including myself).
I mention this cause i think it is important to evaluate the character builds since we have one player less which makes encounters a bit more difficult.
Our DM assists us with a NPC, but it's just an assist, not a full substitute for a 4th team member.
We play in the forgotten realms. The other characters are: a dwarven hammer of moradin with cleric/ordained champion as chassis and a rogue/cleric of tymora which aims for the divine trickster.
We are playing a current adventure and just reached level 6, so yeah, any prestige class decision should be made now.
feats can be retrained, if needed.
Without any further ado, to my build idea:
My wizard concept includes two basic pillars:
1.) Term of "generalist": this does not mean that he may not specialize. I even consider a focused specialist. I think that it is better to kick 3 schools and have a broader and more flexible spell reservoir than some schools which I dont need in the first place.
So, what makes it a generalist? It is the broad and flexible spell arsenal and many minor, wizardish abilites. I like some spontaenous casting stuff and the ability to have an "answer" to the upcoming problems. So, some spontaneous casting by using 15-min-refill, many spell slots and maybe some general prestige classes are important for pillar 1.
2.) Next, I like the idea of an "antimage." The abjuration school description in the complete mage pretty much describes what I like: magic of blocking, undoing and denying.
And the idea that mages are the greatest threat, but that an antimage threatens the mages :)
So, pillar 2 wants "some" antimagic stuff. "Some" because I'm not the big fan of specializing wholly into one aspect. I prefer many different abilites to keep more versatile and flexible.
Okay, that's the stuff which is important for the upcoming build. I dont wanna play some standard build found in the handbooks, I want some of those pillars reflected and not a "high op" char.
He schould be good, a bit strong, but within the flow. Style prevails and matters :)
Now, my current ideas:
Build 1: Targeting the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.
The initiate can fulfill all things i want to to with pillar 2.
But im concerned since the discussion about this prestige class is very controversial. Many call it broken or at least too powerful at all.
I don't wanna use too powerful stuff, but I can only evaluate this class in theory. Practical experience and advices to this class would be cool.
It is important to say that I don't usw the standard build (master specialist/I7) since i wanna fill the previous classes with more general prestige classes (see below) and since i find the master specialist a bit of a lackluster. The minor school esoterica is substituted by a dispelling chord which also gives a +2 competence bonus to dispels (see MIC). To make this up, you must have at least six levels of MS to get a better result (+3).
Caster Level +1 from MS is nice, but can be substituted by one of the general prestige classes i consider (paragnostic apostle: penetrating insight).
So, no master specialist or maximum 3 levels for the feats.
But so far, I plan with focused specialist 5 / filler 4 / initiate of the sevenfold veil 7.
My entry costs are hard (3 feats) and I wonder if this equalizes the powerful initiate I get.
At the second glance, I dont find those feats "wasted" since 2 of them are needed anyways for the Archmage at higher levels. Plus, I dont think that focuses on abjuration are THAT bad. abjuration has some very good SoL and control stuff at the higher levels (spell level 5+) like:
dismissal, banishment, reciprocal gyre (the good CA-version), antimagic ray, arcane turmoil, imprisonment, maw of chaos, refusal, repulsion and wall of good.
Considering the discussion about the power of the initiate I think that purely defense abilites cannot by THAT problem, can it?
It's not like you gain more active powers, it's more about group protection and survival. Since D&D generally doesn't support defense that much, I found the initiate an appealing and interesting class. But, as i mentioned: i want to be careful. Our DM makes her job good, but since she is DMing general pre-gen-adventures, the enemies are much like core stuff...
Well, thats the route to the Initiate.
I would fill the levels 6-9 with some dips of the following prestige classes to give the character some generalist stuff from pillar 1:
fatespinner 2, paragnostic apostle 2 or mage of the arcane order 2.
fatespinner 2 is for level 8 & 9. It hasn't many flavorful stuff and is more mechanical (save DC vs save).
paragnostic apostle is a sage-like class much like the loremaster, but it is easier, cheaper and gives impromptu class abilites. And I like the mundane stuff (4 skill points, search and spot as class skills).
penetrating insight helps the abjuration aspect (+1 dispel and SR checks) while mind over matter gives +2 AC (good but boring, no flavor).
Maybe I take manifest ethos for some blasting spells since it is pretty effective vs evil creatures.
I'm unsure if Mage of the Arcane Order 2 is that good.
Pro: it would support the flavor of my character (he learned at the Lady's College of Silverymoon), +1 metamagic feat, feat prerequisite exchanged (spell focus or spell penetration or cooperative spell, idea taken from the Guild Wizard of Waterdeep). The feat exchange would mesh well with the spell focus I need anyways.
The Mage is included cause I like the spontaneity aspect (pillar 1).
But after a spell analysis I don't see the major advantage.
Most spellpool spells would be utility spells since the spell pool calling takes +1 extra action (bad for combat, though, a Mage can "hold the spell" CL minutes until he uses it, which can be a situational "pre-combat-buff").
But the Limit is harsh (only CL/2 spell grades per day) and I don't see the advantage comparing it with standard 15-min-rememorizing.
It if need utility spells, I have the time to rememorize them.
Only one good advantage I see is the availability of any PHB spell, so, if my wizard hasn't that many spells in his book, he can make up this by calling the spell with spellpool.
All in all, Mage 2 is in competition with paragnostic apostle 2 at Level 6 & 7.
[Houserule idea: if i would change the prerequisite of the MotAO to knowledge 6 ranks, he could qualify already at level 4. Then, I could go like abjurer3/MoAO2/PA2/Fate2/I7. Would that be to cheesy? It would be expensive to get the 2 prereq. feats online at level 4, too.]
Last but not least there is the uncanny forethought feat which is in nearly any aspect better than the Mage of the Arcane Order. But it depletes all of my feats since I need 3 for the I7, 2 for uncanny forethought and maybe 1 metamagic feat. Later, I plan to buy a runestaff and some eternal wands to get more spontaenous casting (which both could substitute the spontaneous quality of UF). Plus, I analyzed my spells per day and came to the conclusion that I would memorize many "no-brainers" as daily routine spells which I can use any time (like fly, slow, haste, mirror image, teleport etc) plus some open slots. The "gain" of uncanny forethought isn't THAT big if you have a broad spell selection, open slots and spontaenous items. So, is uncanny forethought overrated? Would you recommend it for pillar 1 (instead of Mage2?)
Going UF would need some build changes: i would dip the master specialist 2 levels to make up the lost feats a bit.
Build 2: Pure Generlist, no abjuration aspect (no initiate)
Build 2 has no "main prestige class" as goal. Instead, it dips many different prestige classes to get many class features (some with major, some minor benefits).
So, in build 2 i focus wholly on pillar 1 - the generalist. You can also call him an allrounder.
Compared to wizard 5/ filler 4 / veil 7, I gain 7 levels to continue/start other PrC.
The pool of prestige classes includes: fatespinner, mage of the arcane order, paragnostic apostle, wayfarer guide, malconvoker and divine oracle.
This generalist could have some summoning benefits (Malconvoker 5), some diviner benefits (Divine Oracle 2 or 4), all good 4 Fatespinner levels and earlier archmage entry than initiate (level 14 instead of 17).
Pro: many totally different abilites to be a total allrounder.
Con: no real focus or "main prestige class." Question is: is it as good as a pure specialist to use many minor abilites? Build 2 would never see a "real capstone ability."
At least, I could give Summoning a slight focus with Malconvoker 5/6.
The divine oracle's oracle domain seems interesting. But then again, I don't know if I would use that many divinations to justify this class. Though divinations are powerful, I feel that if you use them too often, you make the adventure too easy and the DMs life a hassle.
Well.... thats all so far.
Okay, wow.
This article went very long.
Maybe you see how much i care for a good, medium oped AND flavorful wizard.
I appreciate any comment, help, feedback, advice or idea.