There's something about Haley [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

sun_tzu

2012-03-13, 05:17 AM

Math_Mage

2012-03-13, 05:33 AM

I'll admit, I wasn't a fan of this strip's punchline. It felt like playing for time before the next major plot advancement, and the dialogue was unnatural.

Kish

2012-03-13, 05:51 AM

Confession: Maybe it's my utterly Lawful leanings talking, but I'll admit I was slightly irritated by the dig at those alignments in the latest strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html). "Allow me to explain to you how Lawful types are oppressive conformists, right after I've explained to you how Girard got his entire clan to share his paranoid, fanatical pet issue." But I was more annoyed at how forced it felt when Durkon and Roy jumped in to confirm that yes, Haley is totally right.

Unfortunately, you've just blown your foot off by demonstrating that someone who found what Haley said offensive feels a need to say that she's wrong, quite effectively refuting your claim that Roy and Durkon doing so was forced.

...And you realize that Girard was Chaotic, right?

And then there was the whole Greyskies sequence. Celia, a character who had been written as quite reasonable and intelligent up to this point, suddenly started being a moron...in constant contrast to Haley, who could act as the voice of reason.
That is...a point of view about what happened in Greysky City, I guess. But I'm fairly confident it's not the one held by the author. Celia and Haley both acted as though the other's viewpoint existed for snark, not comprehension. But if you thought Celia seemed like a moron, that's your personal opinion of pacifism*, not Word of God. (Or you might mean going into the city even though Haley said not to...but Celia had excellent reason to have stopped listening to Haley by that time, since Haley's plan before Celia arrived was to squat in proto-Gobbotopia until Redcloak dropped the ceiling on her.)

Haley is greedy, paranoid, mentally unstable. Her claiming to have converted to Thor didn't hurt the Order--that we know of, yet--but it didn't help them either, since Tarquin saw right through it. Her argument with Elan over Tarquin's evil says more about Elan, since all it could say about Haley is that she's capable of observing the obvious. And a lot of people think she's a terrible person for killing Crystal.

*From past threads, I wonder if you or someone else will respond to this with incorrect claims about no one in the real world balking at killing others in self-defense.

fergo

2012-03-13, 06:12 AM

I never really thought about it before, but I can see there has been something of a trend of Haley being right.

However, regarding the Celia sequence...

I've got to admit, Haley's storyline in DStP has never been my favourite part of the comic, by a long shot. During a recent re-read I tried to pin down why, and I concluded the same thing as you--I wasn't a fan of how Haley is portrayed. Sure, there are still some fantastic moments, and quality jokes are scattered just as thick as anywhere else in tOotS, but it still jarred with me.

On the other hand, on my recent read-through I began to apreciate Celia more as a character, which helped me enjoy the sequence more than I had in the past.

Celia represents a 'lawful' morality that wouldn't seem out of place in our own world. She hates killing and always wants to negotiate an end to her problems and this actually helps (sort of).

Sure, she has her flaws, and often makes things worse, but I think that's more a part of her 'fish out of water' storyline than the Giant deliberately pointing out the stupidity of her morality system.

I would say that if anyone was the 'voice of reason', it's Celia. She's the one pointing out how bloody and horrific the D&D world actually is (especially considering that she's travelling with a certain halfling...). Sure, Haley is presented as the sensible one that solves all of the problems--but I think this is more of a comment on the messed-up nature of the D&D world than on Celia's morality.

I'll admit the theory isn't perfect. At times Celia's presented a little too much as a airhead (no racial slur intended) for my liking. And this is assuming that the Giant didn't just include her to poke fun of her morality/allignment, which I'll happily admit is a possibility.

sun_tzu

2012-03-13, 06:23 AM

...And you realize that Girard was Chaotic, right?

Er, yes? That's the reason I brought it up? Pointing out that Haley was accusing Lawful alignments of something she had just then explained a Chaotic guy had been doing for decades?

ThePhantasm

2012-03-13, 06:31 AM

Haley has consistently been portrayed as a flawed character. She's been right a lot, but so has Roy. She's also been wrong quite a bit, and so has Roy.

I remember a thread awhile back about how Haley was supposedly a Mary Sue. I didn't buy into it then and I don't now.

Chobarth

2012-03-13, 06:35 AM

Confession: Maybe it's my utterly Lawful leanings talking, but I'll admit I was slightly irritated by the dig at those alignments in the latest strip. ... Is it just my imagination?

Yes. It's your utterly Lawful leanings, and your imagination. You are doing the long forum version of what Roy and Durkon did in the strip itself.

I benefit from the rule of law as much as the next guy, but it doesn't mean I care for oppressive conformity when it rears its ugly head. Haley wasn't entirely wrong...

I also don't agree that Celia is a moron - Crystal was the moron ('pickle attack'???) and was written as such. Celia is just an insufferable moralist.

[side note, re: Celia -- I would like to hear her take on Vaarsuvius, the Black Dragon mass murder, and the collateral damage (i.e. mass murder overdrive). I'd like to find out what she thought the most appropriate action to take in regards to V would be.]

sun_tzu

2012-03-13, 06:37 AM

As for the Celia thing...I'll admit, it's not all that simple.
But she did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0574.html) act a lot dumber than before.

I remember a thread awhile back about how Haley was supposedly a Mary Sue.

I definitely wouldn't go that far.

oppyu

2012-03-13, 06:40 AM

She also implied Girard was a paranoid fool who would suffer to spite others... so I don't think she considers Girard's Miko-level fanaticism (except to chaos instead of law) to be an ideal.

sun_tzu

2012-03-13, 06:43 AM

She also implied Girard was a paranoid fool who would suffer to spite others... so I don't think she considers Girard's Miko-level fanaticism (except to chaos instead of law) to be an ideal.

*nods*
I'm kinda wondering if Girard is going to be "Chaotic Good* done wrong" in the way that Miko was "Lawful Good done wrong".

*Not that he's necessarily Good. His methods seem pretty awful. I'd presume he's Chaotic Neutral, but, between Miko and Eugene, you never know...

fergo

2012-03-13, 06:48 AM

*nods*
I'm kinda wondering if Girard is going to be "Chaotic Good* done wrong" in the way that Miko was "Lawful Good done wrong".

*Not that he's necessarily Good. His methods seem pretty awful. I'd presume he's Chaotic Neutral, but, between Miko and Eugene, you never know...

I agree with your line of thinking, but if I recall correctly the Giant stated in one of his interviews that there was some reason that Girard was so paranoid, something to do with what happened with the Order of the Scribble. Well, a reason that explains some of his paranoia. When that's revealed, I think it'll turn everything we've assumed about Girard on its head...

RMS Oceanic

2012-03-13, 06:53 AM

I'd say Haley has been right about situations it logically makes sense for her to be right about, except perhaps the "They're obviously evil" thing with the Linear Guild. She understands how to con someone, so she sees through Xykon's shell game. She obviously has experience with Greysky city, so her warnings to stay away are valid, although she did falter in not explaining why they should stay away. And now her own experience with her father gives her insight into the Draketooth mindset, or at least a logical explaination for why they're still dead.

I think the shell game in particular, as well as 844, shows why she's sometimes dismissed as paranoid. I believe that at least in Rich's interpretations of it, a Lawful Person is less likely to think outside the box, as it were. By default it would be less likely for it to occur to them that their outlook is wrong. I myself am guilty of the fallacy that "someone disagrees with me -> they're stupid/crazy/whatever". While not framed in exactly those words, I think a similar thing goes on here from time to time.

sun_tzu

2012-03-13, 06:59 AM

She understands how to con someone, so she sees through Xykon's shell game.

See, that didn't bother me. Haley figuring out what was going on there before anyone else was entirely reasonable.

theNater

2012-03-13, 07:01 AM

As for the Celia thing...I'll admit, it's not all that simple.
But she did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0574.html) act a lot dumber than before.
If you're going to claim Celia's acting dumber than before, you need to demonstrate a "before" during which she was acting smarter.

She bought Nale's thousand years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html), despite two people she had seen moments ago being in the room with her(and not a thousand years older). She didn't doubt the not guilty verdict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html), but Haley rightly points out that the OotS were actually guilty(which an experienced lawyer should have noticed). She's been consistently optimistic and inexperienced, and her naivete in that scene is just the logical consequence of those traits in a city as nasty as Greysky.

She is smart in some ways, certainly, but her abilities to form reasoned arguments, exploit loopholes, and spot incomplete arguments aren't what's being tested in the strip you linked.

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-13, 07:21 AM

She bought Nale's thousand years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html), despite two people she had seen moments ago being in the room with her(and not a thousand years older).
I wonder how clearly you'd be thinking within a few seconds of your neurons having been returned from lathent lithic copies of themselves to functional electro-chemical conductivity. The group of people that petrified her was composed of a human, two elves, and a fiend, three of which are more than capable of living a thousand years. And for all Celia knew, Haley could have been some sort of long-lived demi-human or outsider as well; she certainly felt confident enough to snark it up with a fiend while Celia watched.

She didn't doubt the not guilty verdict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html), but Haley rightly points out that the OotS were actually guilty (which an experienced lawyer should have noticed).
By far the vast majority of criminal defendants are guilty, and unlike the strengths and weaknesses of monsters stitched together from the flesh of the dead, that little nugget of truth is part of the standard law school curriculum. Getting a "not guilty" verdict has very little to do with what the defendant is actually guilty of. You'll notice that Celia is willing to change defense strategies, and the narratives she'd prefer the judge to believe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html) in the middle of the trial. You'll notice that, in the same strip, she basically admits that Elan at least is guilty of the crime and that she plans to get the OOTS off the hook anyway. You'll then notice that her celebration is for herself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html), having won her first case, and not for having prevented a miscarriage of justice or having protected innocent people. It's pretty clear that although Celia, like everyone else but Eugene, was ignorant of what Shojo was trying to pull, she knew very well what she was going to have to pull.

Acanous

2012-03-13, 07:31 AM

it rang true with me, but only because in a previous campaign, two of the (L/G) party members created a rather oppressive monarchy (Outlawing the evil alignment, punishment being death, chaotic aligned people were not allowed to own businesses or property, treated as second-class. Non-good people were not allowed in the nobility)
My character was C/G, and the leader of a mercenary army. After saving their butts from a demon, and helping them hunt down and kill a lich, it was quite the kick in the jimmies to be treated like a second-class citizen, especially when I had the power to sack their city and hold it, AND have the population rejoice -A 70 Diplomacy mod is a loverly thing-
(Bard/Marshal/Legendary Leader/Heir of Syberis with an artificer cohort, VS Blasty Sorceror and a Binder with Abjurer and Paladin cohorts. The Wiz/Mspec/Iot7FV would be the biggest problem of the lot, my saves were in the high 50's, and have you ever read "Ruin Delver's fortune"?)

The whole thing ended pretty much how you'd expect. We managed to pull it off with nobody having any hard feelings and everyone knowing it was all in-character, for in-character reasons.

While I enjoy playing Lawful characters as much as Chaotic ones, Lawful *Players* tend to take things a bit too far.
So the strip made sense to me.

theNater

2012-03-13, 07:49 AM

I wonder how clearly you'd be thinking within a few seconds of your neurons having been returned from lathent lithic copies of themselves to functional electro-chemical conductivity. The group of people that petrified her was composed of a human, two elves, and a fiend, three of which are more than capable of living a thousand years. And for all Celia knew, Haley could have been some sort of long-lived demi-human or outsider as well; she certainly felt confident enough to snark it up with a fiend while Celia watched.

By far the vast majority of criminal defendants are guilty, and unlike the strengths and weaknesses of monsters stitched together from the flesh of the dead, that little nugget of truth is part of the standard law school curriculum. Getting a "not guilty" verdict has very little to do with what the defendant is actually guilty of. You'll notice that Celia is willing to change defense strategies, and the narratives she'd prefer the judge to believe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html) in the middle of the trial. You'll notice that, in the same strip, she basically admits that Elan at least is guilty of the crime and that she plans to get the OOTS off the hook anyway. You'll then notice that her celebration is for herself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html), having won her first case, and not for having prevented a miscarriage of justice or having protected innocent people. It's pretty clear that although Celia, like everyone else but Eugene, was ignorant of what Shojo was trying to pull, she knew very well what she was going to have to pull.
Why do you think her experiences up to that point should make her more able to spot the illicit sale of corpses than the discrepancies in the other two situations?

PebbleInTheSky

2012-03-13, 10:05 AM

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-13, 10:14 AM

Why do you think her experiences up to that point should make her more able to spot the illicit sale of corpses than the discrepancies in the other two situations?
Don't put words in my mouth. You brought up two examples to support your claim that Celia's consistently naive and spacey. I don't think those examples were good, and gave my reasons why.

For what it's worth, there are better examples of Celia being naive and spacey. That she took to the air in a city she knew to be lit by open lanterns made for a romantic moment followed by a fairly lame joke, but also endangered her and Roy needlessly. Her explanation for what happened at the Oracle's after being scrubbed by the memory charm was bizarre, not to mention that before her memory was wiped she wanted to go back and loot his tower with no concern for the danger. That she let Grubwiggler handle Roy's body and that she powered his machine before reading his contract in full and coming to a meeting of the minds was truly a...special moment for her. What's more, unlike the trial in Azure City, it really did represent a moment of poor lawyering for her.

raymundo

2012-03-13, 10:15 AM

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-13, 10:17 AM

rbetieh

2012-03-13, 10:37 AM

As for the Celia thing...I'll admit, it's not all that simple.
But she did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0574.html) act a lot dumber than before.

I definitely wouldn't go that far.

I dont think Celia was ever made out to be dumb. Her first two appearances were areas in her comfort zone. First DoD where she worked for years only leaving from time to time to pick up snacks. Her second appearance was as a paralegal after having taking some classes in just that. Her third appearance was "in the wild" on a plane she doesn't understand that follows a bunch of rules that are foreign to her. Its basically like any "tourist story". She gets herself in trouble because she doesn't know the rules. Haley knows the rules, but this arc served to show us how ineffective She and Elan were as leaders, and how much the team actually needed Roy.

<I wanted to comment on some other things later on in the thread, but it would be Un-Lawful to do so>

Jay R

2012-03-13, 11:28 AM

And then there was the whole Greyskies sequence. Celia, a character who had been written as quite reasonable and intelligent up to this point, suddenly started being a moron...in constant contrast to Haley, who could act as the voice of reason.

Haley is merely portrayed as the person who knew the situation in the city she grew up in better than anybody else. Yes, she was the first one to reason out that all people she had betrayed in the past would be out to kill her.

"...voice of reason"? She is the reason all the bad stuff happened.

Lecan

2012-03-13, 11:45 AM

I'm a little surprised that anyone thinks Celia's not an airhead (sorry for the slur but it fits). The only 2 people that think she's competent (3 if you count Elan's compliment to her speech in Azure City) are Celia and Roy. She proved terrible at everything she's done besides be the winner of a rigged contest: failed at protecting her sigil or even making herself noticed, couldn't keep her first in-comic boyfriend, disappoints her mother at every turn, doesn't know the basics of her current boyfriend/only client, fails to listen to those more knowledgeable than herself (explaining all of the other failures), interferes where she is least useful and is currently failing law school (despite practicing law). If she wasn't attractive, she wouldn't have made it past the first book.

Back on topic, since the start of the current book, it seems everyone (except maybe Elan) has been at the top of their game. Roy's doing an excellent job utilizing his entire team to achieve goals, V is becoming more efficient and effective, Haley is taking to her second-in-command post in ways surpassing her original intentions, Belkar is being useful or at least not actively hurting the team and Durkon is even working on making jokes (Cleric's Feather Fall ^^). I don't see that it's unusual or out of place to have Haley becoming more effective at one of her narrative roles.

silvadel

2012-03-13, 11:46 AM

As for the law and chaos discussion, I found it very telling about law and chaos...

But then again I lean towards the chaos side of the law-chaos thingy... Neutral Good with Chaotic tendencies.

I really chafe under law but I do not see pure chaos as any kind of a good thing either and sometimes I get the need to impose law over a chaotic situation... But at those times I really do know what I am doing... Chaos kind of creeps in.

---

That said I never understood why chaotics in D&D werent allowed to be psion -- I would think those two would usually go together... Or at least those right on the border of it.

rgrekejin

2012-03-13, 12:03 PM

Ravian

2012-03-13, 12:16 PM

That said I never understood why chaotics in D&D werent allowed to be psion -- I would think those two would usually go together... Or at least those right on the border of it.

Probably because being a Psion requires alot of mental discipline, like a Monk requires physical and Spiritual discipline. Then again I hate to limit Discipline by alignment, and I generally dislike alignment restrictions, especially for non-divine classes.

Holy_Knight

2012-03-13, 12:41 PM

Personally, I felt Roy and Durkon response didn't prove anything. It's like saying, "Idiot says what?" and responding with "What?". Doesn't make the person responding an idiot, it's just a cheap trick. You could flip it around and do the same to Haley.

"Chaotics try to force their point of view on everyone!"

"No we don't!"

This. Exactly this. Trying to correct someone who you believe to be wrong is not a lawful behavior, it is a human behavior (or, this being DnD, a sentient-being behavior). The fact that Haley drew their responses by essentially asking "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?", putting them in a situation where they have no way of successfully denying the charge no matter what they say, proves nothing. It's a nice rhetorical device, but it isn't really evidence of anything.
I agree with these sentiments too, and also with the OP in regards to the particular punchline of 844. Aside from seeming a bit forced, the joke didn't really work for two other reasons. First, there was no "or else" contained in what Roy and Durkon were saying--they were just justifiably annoyed at being insulted.

More importantly, the single most "you better think just like I do or else" person in Haley's life has got to be her own father, with his "Never tell anyone anything true about yourself or else you'll be putting yourself in imminent danger of betrayal" warnings. The fact that Haley herself acknowledges how much that instruction (from her definitely non-lawful and probably chaotic) father has screwed up her own life makes her complaint about lawful-types seem rather hypocritical.

silvadel

2012-03-13, 01:10 PM

Probably because being a Psion requires alot of mental discipline, like a Monk requires physical and Spiritual discipline. Then again I hate to limit Discipline by alignment, and I generally dislike alignment restrictions, especially for non-divine classes.

It is kind of an interior order vs exterior order thing.

One can really chafe under exterior order but have a tight interior order and sometimes chaos can make that a necessity.

A hero/champion of chaos granted much chaotic power might require a ton of interior order to not go insane.

---

Who knows -- champions of chaos do end up neutral under some definitions...

---

What would be more interesting is to say, instead of being forced out of the class etc if you become chaotic saying no matter how chaotic you are the class forces you into neutrality on the law-chaos axis. IE it balances any chaotic acts you do and you can't stray into chaotic alignments.

Math_Mage

2012-03-13, 01:11 PM

This. Exactly this. Trying to correct someone who you believe to be wrong is not a lawful behavior, it is a human behavior (or, this being DnD, a sentient-being behavior). The fact that Haley drew their responses by essentially asking "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?", putting them in a situation where they have no way of successfully denying the charge no matter what they say, proves nothing. It's a nice rhetorical device, but it isn't really evidence of anything.

And on top of that, Roy and Durkon's responses are uncharacteristically rude and dismissive. Totally not the sort of behavior I would have expected from them, and it only makes sense knowing that the Giant is awkwardly trying to get that last-panel joke.

JSSheridan

2012-03-13, 01:17 PM

Has Haley ever made a bet she lost?

On the Starmetal quest, Roy bets the underwater passage leads to the dragon's horde. Haley takes it knowing that if she wins, she's 10gp richer, and if she loses, she's her share minus 10gp richer. So it's a win-win.

Never take a bet Haley offers. If she accepts yours, keep cash on hand. Now we'll see if this really does wrap up in seven in-universe weeks.

raymundo

2012-03-13, 01:25 PM

Comic #9? Yes

Snails

2012-03-13, 01:46 PM

And on top of that, Roy and Durkon's responses are uncharacteristically rude and dismissive. Totally not the sort of behavior I would have expected from them, and it only makes sense knowing that the Giant is awkwardly trying to get that last-panel joke.

I think it was slightly forced, but the timing worked.

We should keep in mind that Haley is the one of the very few characters who consistently reads the motivations of others*. In fact, most other characters habitually blunder forward, blinkered by their own world view, generating both excellent and cheap laughs along the way.

* I would give credit to Shojo and Tarquin, as well.

Math_Mage

2012-03-13, 02:15 PM

I think it was slightly forced, but the timing worked.

We should keep in mind that Haley is the one of the very few characters who consistently reads the motivations of others*. In fact, most other characters habitually blunder forward, blinkered by their own world view, generating both excellent and cheap laughs along the way.

* I would give credit to Shojo and Tarquin, as well.

It's not the timing that concerns me. It's that the first reaction is to call it "absurd" and "crazy talk" and dismiss the matter out of hand. It's that Haley responds to Durkon's question about why Girard might distrust paladins by making an incorrect generalization about Lawful characters, rather than pointing out an obvious (though not necessarily completely clear) personal feud between Soon and Girard as demonstrated by the message she heard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html)--and wouldn't it make sense for a Chaotic character to seek personal explanations rather than broad principles? It's that Roy and Durkon's comments, though uncharacteristically vehement and antagonistic, don't actually prove her point or make the joke work. There are just too many things about the way the joke was set up and executed that didn't play right for me.

JSSheridan

2012-03-13, 02:22 PM

Comic #9? Yes

Disagree.

She didn't put any gp on it, so it wasn't a bet. Just a wild guess. Roy tried to get her to put gp on it. She didn't though, and he didn't collect. Money talks...

Actually, she does lose to Durkon of all people in 205 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0205.html).

ORione

2012-03-13, 02:29 PM

I don't have a problem with what Haley said, or what Durkon said.

Haley has a general example of why an extremely Chaotic person might not want to work with someone Lawful.

Durkon took offense, because she made an unfair generalization about a group that included him. I think his response was reasonable.

Roy, on the other hand, bugged me. He seemed a bit too... dismissive, and acted pretty much the way Haley said Lawful people act. It seemed a bit much.

veti

2012-03-13, 02:33 PM

Haley is expressing a point of view. The idea that "Lawful types are always trying to make others think like them" is her way of explaining what they do. It's not meant to be a statement of incontrovertible fact (and I wouldn't be surprised if Haley herself gets quite squirmy around terms like "incontrovertible fact" in any case).

To call it "incorrect" is missing the point - it's like calling her favourite colour or ice-cream flavour "incorrect". Haley is explaining a part of her mental model of the world. And like most reasonably intelligent people's models, it makes sense as far as it goes, although it is of course incomplete.

Roy and Durkon disagree. They don't see themselves like that. No surprise there.

The fact that you (addressing the OP here) sees their intervention as validating her, and then validate her further yourself, suggests that you maybe agree with her more than you think you do. You may hate it, but you admit she's got a point.

I don't see anything forced in this strip, unless it's Elan's revelation at the end (which may refer to something else entirely, for all we know).

ManuelSacha

2012-03-13, 03:24 PM

raymundo

2012-03-13, 03:41 PM

Disagree.

She didn't put any gp on it, so it wasn't a bet. Just a wild guess. Roy tried to get her to put gp on it. She didn't though, and he didn't collect. Money talks...

Well, saying "I bet" is a bet for me, I read it as if she took a bet but just didn't pay up when she lost. Being a rogue a probably of chaotic alignment I didn't found that too odd

Math_Mage

2012-03-13, 04:23 PM

To the OP:

You're right. Roy's final line did seem forced.
It's just like the author was forcing himself to make his (our?) beloved, flawless Roy be wrong, for once.

Flawless? Not in the comic I'M reading.

Pointless disruption of character just because you need him to be wrong for one particular strip doesn't make sense.

Paseo H

2012-03-13, 05:02 PM

To the OP:

You're right. Roy's final line did seem forced.
It's just like the author was forcing himself to make his (our?) beloved, flawless Roy be wrong, for once.

He's always sentencing others from his high horse, from Miko, to Shojo, to his own father and his own sister, to Xykon, to Thog, to every single member of the Order (up to and including Durkon!!), but hey... this time it was different, 'cause he was wrong!
All in all, a weak attempt... but a needed one for sure.
You know, to save the guy from falling into Marty Stu territory.

The other considerations about Haley are just so unconceivable that I won't bother commenting them. :smalltongue:

Though well worthy of his place in the halls of Mount Celestia, Roy is by no stretch of the imagination a Marty Stu.

Remember when he was being judged? It was quite clear that he has many flaws (not the least of which, his abandoning Elan to bandits), but that in the end he was trying and doing his best to live up to his alignment. That is not Marty Stu.

Or are we going to define Mary Sue as "less flaws than most?"

SaintRidley

2012-03-13, 05:04 PM

Way I see it, Durkon and Roy's final bit is being right for the wrong reasons.

Yes, Haley's reasoning for why they won't come back is probably wrong. However, Roy and Durkon are taking the rigid Lawful "my way (worldview) or the highway (something-that-rhymes-with-worldview)" stance. Basically, since it doesn't make sense from a Lawful perspective, the idea is absurd and not worth considering.

They're right. It is absurd. But they're right about it in a way that makes Haley's point about Lawful worldviews -- if the round peg doesn't fit in the square hole, the round peg is stupid so let's go find the square peg and completely ignore this nice round hole here.

That's what I'm taking from it, anyway. It's not so much that they're derailing but more that they're not doing so well at comprehending the chaotic viewpoint at all. Remember that Haley had to walk the Lawful types step-by-step (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) through the shell game analogy for one of them (Roy) to even get it.

MeanMrsMustard

2012-03-13, 07:37 PM

@Paseo, Mage:
I just assumed ManuelSacha was being sarcastic. :/
On topic...
Yeah, I think it might just be the OP's imagination. The Greysky City arc seemed a little off on Celia's characterization, but I don't think either Celia or Haley is wholly to blame. I mean, I'd probably be doing some of the same things as Celia if I were in her situation. (I probably wouldn't go as far as retrieving Belkar's candy bar because some innocent creature might eat it and get sick. That one was stupid.) But I'm generally a pacifist and I probably wouldn't do too well in D&D because it's hard for me to imagine killing things.
Anyway, on the Law vs. Chaos thing...
Muahahaha, this is why Neutral is the best! :smallwink:

ManuelSacha

2012-03-13, 08:27 PM

Though well worthy of his place in the halls of Mount Celestia, Roy is by no stretch of the imagination a Marty Stu.
[...]
That is not Marty Stu.
[...]
Or are we going to define Mary Sue as "less flaws than most?"

That's what I'm saying.
It's clear the author has a soft spot for Roy and, since the character covers the role of "only sane man" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlySaneMan), he most usually sees things from Roy's perspective.
He also gives him a lot of focus, since he's "sort of the protagonist", even when logically Roy's role should be modest. You would expect Elan to get the most exposure in this last desert arc, given Tarquin, Nale and the premises of the setting... instead Elan is overshadowed, and this part of the story becomes "Roy's Triumph In The Arena (While Dispensing Life Lessons)".
BUT... little (veeery occasional) things like this last strip are definitely needed to make him look human and flawed. And it's good that the author understands that: that's why Roy is NOT an unbearable Marty Stu for the readers. However, his flaws ARE very little, compared to everyone else's.
I'm glad you brought out his judgement. It turned out he was pretty much perfect, except for one single case... when he abandoned Elan to an uncertain fate for the sin of being annoying (and then came back to save him after a while). That was his only big sin. I let you judge how bad it is (it's pretty bad, if you ask me), but it's honestly beyond suspension of disbelief that it's the only really bad thing the guy did in his 30+ years of life, his only regret.
And guess what? It felt extremely forced! Just like his last line. We have come full circle.
Think about it.
Burlew occasionally tries to bring Roy down to earth... but he loves the character too much to do that in a believable way because he doesn't really believe Roy is wrong. Because, most of the time, he is Roy. :smallwink:

In the light of that... reading that Haley, of all people, is depicted as a Mary Sue, and that other characters get twisted in their behaviour to make her the voice of reason... it just made me laugh. :smallbiggrin:

ManuelSacha

2012-03-13, 08:28 PM

Valyrian

2012-03-13, 08:52 PM

Interesting that you say that, because in my opinion it is Elan who has been taking up too much spotlight in the recent arc.

Mutant Sheep

2012-03-13, 09:11 PM

That's what I'm saying.
It's clear the author has a soft spot for Roy and, since the character covers the role of "only sane man" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlySaneMan), he most usually sees things from Roy's perspective.
He also gives him a lot of focus, since he's "sort of the protagonist", even when logically Roy's role should be modest. You would expect Elan to get the most exposure in this last desert arc, given Tarquin, Nale and the premises of the setting... instead Elan is overshadowed, and this part of the story becomes "Roy's Triumph In The Arena (While Dispensing Life Lessons)".
BUT... little (veeery occasional) things like this last strip are definitely needed to make him look human and flawed. And it's good that the author understands that: that's why Roy is NOT an unbearable Marty Stu for the readers. However, his flaws ARE very little, compared to everyone else's.
I'm glad you brought out his judgement. It turned out he was pretty much perfect, except for one single case... when he abandoned Elan to an uncertain fate for the sin of being annoying (and then came back to save him after a while). That was his only big sin. I let you judge how bad it is (it's pretty bad, if you ask me), but it's honestly beyond suspension of disbelief that it's the only really bad thing the guy did in his 30+ years of life, his only regret.
And guess what? It felt extremely forced! Just like his last line. We have come full circle.
Burlew occasionally tries to bring Roy down to earth... but he loves the character too much to do that in a believable way because he doesn't really believe Roy is wrong. Because, most of the time, he is Roy. :smallwink: In the light of that... reading that Haley, of all people, is depicted as a Mary Sue, and that other characters get twisted in their behaviour to make her the voice of reason... it just made me laugh. :smallbiggrin:
I'm confused. Do really you think that most people have a bunch of major crimes on their heads?:smallconfused: You're saying he's a Mary Sue because he has only done ONE thing knowingly that directly risked/condemned a friend to death. Elan's flaw is being dumb, but he never does anything WRONG. Is he a Marty Sue now?:smalleek: Because then this world has CRAPPY standards for their perfection.
You're saying Rich has a soft spot for Roy (I think everybody is supposed to, he is the Lawful Good role model), but his flaws aren't forced. I mean, he doesn't get along with his teenage sister all the time. That's not a fake-flaw that Rich threw in to make him seem less perfect, its something that pretty much everybody does. Roy is, compared with everybody else, average. (Ok, maybe a bit above said "average".:smalltongue:) But if that means he's a Mary Sue, then a pretty large chunk of the population whose only crimes are being upset in traffic, being annoyed when dealing with two constantly arguing co-workers, and getting not getting along with their siblings are even bigger Mary Sues than he is.

I don't think Haley is a Mary Sue either, though this joke did feel a bit forced. (Probably because Roy wasn't threatening to chop Haley up if she didn't apologize. :smallbiggrin:)

Paseo H

2012-03-13, 09:19 PM

The most I'll concede is that the joke could have been delivered in a smoother, more natural way. It's still right, by the way.

Meanwhile, your complaint is that Roy has only one big sin? Just how corrupt do you think humanity is, to think that everyone has to have more than one skeleton in their closet?

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-13, 09:27 PM

I mean, he doesn't get along with his teenage sister all the time. That's not a fake-flaw that Rich threw in to make him seem less perfect, its something that pretty much everybody does.
Well, that's something for which he blames, and for which we are meant to blame, Julia and especially Eugene.

hawkofthenorth

2012-03-13, 10:16 PM

Huh, only one active proponent of the 'This joke is forced out-of-character' argument in this thread seemed to have noticed that the point wasn't that Durkon and Roy disagreed, but rather how they disagreed. How do people just take that for being on par with a simple 'No we don't'? Completely dismissive of the very idea, and a bit insulting about it too, is different than simple disagreement, people.

And I'm going to have to say it's not terribly out of character. Durkon was simply completely dismissive, which frankly doesn't strike me as something out of place in this situation - and in agreement with Haley, especially for a character of his level of Lawfulness. And Roy? Roy has a slight tendency to be rude, sarcastic, and dismissive. Hell, remember back when Hinjo wanted to talk things out with Miko, before it bit him in the ass, and Roy saved him? It wasn't graciously done. He knocked her away, made a sarcastic quip about Hinjo's earlier 'battering things into submission' line, and followed it up like the comment had been a personal attack against him ('because I'm just a big, dumb fighter'), even though that implication only existed in his head. It's a small trend with him.

Anyways, now I've addressed the characters, on to the alignment proper. What is being Lawful, if not an attempt to bring the world around you to some measure of control? Whether that's Tarquin-level All-Must-Serve-Under-Me control, or just a general enforcement of order, that's not important here; that's a Good/Evil matter, not a Lawful/Chaotic matter. When you're working for that level of order and control, it becomes very easy - one might argue necessary - to be against anything that dissents from one's own point of view to completely dismissive levels. It goes against your established order - therefore it must be wrong, and has no merit whatsoever.

Addressing Chaos also seems necessary, from some comments. While Law focuses on one's surroundings, I'd say that Chaos focuses on one's self, sometimes to the absolute exclusion of anyone else (especially in the case of Chaotic Evil). They're not out to force their viewpoints on anyone else, per se. They're not going to get bent out of shape over you not seeing the world exactly like they do. Leave them to their worldview, and they'll leave you to yours, live and let live, so on and so forth. Though again, they focus more on themselves, so this can be negative to those around them (such as in the case of Haley's thieving). But if someone's forcing others into their personal worldview - think more like Tarquin's tyranny, less like Roy's sarcastic dismissing - they will take an active stance against it, because that's gone beyond 'live and let live' territory - as the other side is actively not letting the other live.

Basically, Haley's really not wrong. On the other hand, she's not end-all be-all right, either. It's a conflict of alignment, plain and simple. And it's become abundantly clear that the forums have a good number of Lawful people in it, neh? :smalltongue:

Right done with my tl;dr, lurk reactivate.

rgrekejin

2012-03-13, 10:47 PM

It's not the timing that concerns me. It's that the first reaction is to call it "absurd" and "crazy talk" and dismiss the matter out of hand.

*snip*

It's that Roy and Durkon's comments, though uncharacteristically vehement and antagonistic, don't actually prove her point or make the joke work. There are just too many things about the way the joke was set up and executed that didn't play right for me.

That's it! There's a super-secret illusion (although I suppose this would be more along the lines of enchantment) that amplifies the innate distrust that characters have for people of other alignments! It all makes SO MUCH SENSE now! It's not forced at all, it's the natural outcome of one of the defenses Girard set up for the gate to make sure that it couldn't be claimed by 99% of all adventuring parties, and this is just foreshadowing!

(For the record, I am kidding. Especially as this defense would fall flat on it's face against an order of paladins, if in theory such a thing could exist...)

theNater

2012-03-14, 12:59 AM

Don't put words in my mouth. You brought up two examples to support your claim that Celia's consistently naive and spacey. I don't think those examples were good, and gave my reasons why.
Oh, the irony! I wasn't claiming that Celia is consistently spacey. I was claiming that Celia consistently fails to exhibit suspicion when it would be correct to be suspicious. This is exactly what is happening in the comic sun_tzu linked.

Naturally those examples don't show her being spacey; that's not what they are examples of.

Math_Mage

2012-03-14, 06:07 AM

That's what I'm saying.
It's clear the author has a soft spot for Roy and, since the character covers the role of "only sane man" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlySaneMan), he most usually sees things from Roy's perspective.
He also gives him a lot of focus, since he's "sort of the protagonist", even when logically Roy's role should be modest. You would expect Elan to get the most exposure in this last desert arc, given Tarquin, Nale and the premises of the setting... instead Elan is overshadowed, and this part of the story becomes "Roy's Triumph In The Arena (While Dispensing Life Lessons)".
BUT... little (veeery occasional) things like this last strip are definitely needed to make him look human and flawed. And it's good that the author understands that: that's why Roy is NOT an unbearable Marty Stu for the readers. However, his flaws ARE very little, compared to everyone else's.
I'm glad you brought out his judgement. It turned out he was pretty much perfect, except for one single case... when he abandoned Elan to an uncertain fate for the sin of being annoying (and then came back to save him after a while). That was his only big sin. I let you judge how bad it is (it's pretty bad, if you ask me), but it's honestly beyond suspension of disbelief that it's the only really bad thing the guy did in his 30+ years of life, his only regret.
And guess what? It felt extremely forced! Just like his last line. We have come full circle.
Think about it.
Burlew occasionally tries to bring Roy down to earth... but he loves the character too much to do that in a believable way because he doesn't really believe Roy is wrong. Because, most of the time, he is Roy. :smallwink:

In the light of that... reading that Haley, of all people, is depicted as a Mary Sue, and that other characters get twisted in their behaviour to make her the voice of reason... it just made me laugh. :smallbiggrin:

-Elan wasn't overshadowed in the past arc. Count the strips, appearances, lines, big reveals, etc. Elan comes out ahead on all counts.
-If Rich makes Roy himself too dysfunctional, he can't BE the Only Sane Man, and it's important to have one of those to keep the party sort of on track, and to give the readers an Average Joe viewpoint to identify with.
-The afterlife trial couldn't involve a lot of baggage from pre-comic chronology because that would only serve to bore and confuse the reader. The one Noodle Incident mentioned was enough.
-You're literally the first person I've encountered who thought Roy was portrayed with flaws so small as to break suspension of disbelief.

Chobarth

2012-03-14, 06:54 AM

RMS Oceanic

2012-03-14, 07:19 AM

I was taking a Forum break when Haley killed Crystal.

Can someone summate the Forum view when she did that? I can guess the obvious extremes, but was it 'generally' viewed as an action that went along with her character as we'd seen it up to that point?

(I'd vote yes by the way... )

Comic #648 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html). There was an error on Rich's part that some comics he cut for pacing (but are present in Don't Split the Party) that showed despite Celia's negotiated truce Bozzak and Crystal were planning to "accidentally" kill Haley at the earliest opportunity, so 648 was meant to be more a pre-emptive strike, but it looked a bit too cold blooded without those strips, so a debate about whether Haley was right to kill Crystal erupted.

B. Dandelion

2012-03-14, 07:41 AM

I was taking a Forum break when Haley killed Crystal.

Can someone summate the Forum view when she did that? I can guess the obvious extremes, but was it 'generally' viewed as an action that went along with her character as we'd seen it up to that point?

(I'd vote yes by the way... )

I didn't count how many people were on each side of that argument, but I think it was seen as somewhat more cold-blooded than usual -- and less for the murder itself than the apparent glee with which it was carried out. The complainers were less morally outraged than creeped out.

Chobarth

2012-03-14, 07:48 AM

Comic #648 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html). There was an error on Rich's part that some comics he cut for pacing (but are present in Don't Split the Party) that showed despite Celia's negotiated truce Bozzak and Crystal were planning to "accidentally" kill Haley at the earliest opportunity, so 648 was meant to be more a pre-emptive strike, but it looked a bit too cold blooded without those strips, so a debate about whether Haley was right to kill Crystal erupted.

Ah. Forgot about that extra strips on the book only (which I've read) influencing my vote that it seemed right for her.

Still, after the flames about the Elf Commander, I really can't guess which way the forum will go at any given moment. Just depends on who is lurking and who is absent at any given strip I think.

Thanks to both of you for the feedback.

Jay R

2012-03-14, 02:11 PM

Well, saying "I bet" is a bet for me, I read it as if she took a bet but just didn't pay up when she lost. Being a rogue a probably of chaotic alignment I didn't found that too odd

Haley: I bet it's a Belt of Giant Strength.
Roy: Yeah? 10 gold says it's not.

Haley is expressing an opinion, using an idiom many people use to express opinion. There is no offer of specific terms or second party. Roy offers to turn it into an actual bet, by adding an amount to it, with himself as the other party. Haley does not accept the offer.

And I bet you still won't understand this. No, that is not an actual wager, as no money or second party has been specified.

Mr. Pants

2012-03-14, 03:46 PM

Did she take your wallet?

raymundo

2012-03-14, 06:06 PM

Haley: I bet it's a Belt of Giant Strength.
Roy: Yeah? 10 gold says it's not.

Haley is expressing an opinion, using an idiom many people use to express opinion. There is no offer of specific terms or second party. Roy offers to turn it into an actual bet, by adding an amount to it, with himself as the other party. Haley does not accept the offer.

And I bet you still won't understand this. No, that is not an actual wager, as no money or second party has been specified.

Uh.. you are free to think so. But why so agitated? It's still a bet from Haley to Roy for me, if you don't see it that way you're welcome. Seemingly, you're taking this more seriously than me.

Math_Mage

2012-03-14, 06:28 PM

Uh.. you are free to think so. But why so agitated? It's still a bet from Haley to Roy for me, if you don't see it that way you're welcome. Seemingly, you're taking this more seriously than me.

Well, Haley was using a common idiom and refused the actual bet, so it's *cough* a fair bet to say she wasn't actually planning on betting when she said it in the first place. :smallcool:

Paseo H

2012-03-14, 09:29 PM

Still, after the flames about the Elf Commander, I really can't guess which way the forum will go at any given moment.

Hmm.

I won't assume which side you're taking here, but I think we have every right to be disturbed by apparent good guys expressing racist sentiment. And by right, I mean...

EDIT: My original statement could have been misinterpreted, so to clarify, I just mean, how is it that we have come to a point where having a visceral reaction to racism is seen as being too PC?

Haldir

2012-03-14, 10:36 PM

Umm, Haley has the highest Sense Motive of the party, and her father even mentioned how perceptive she was. This rightness you complain about is entirely consistent with well established character traits.

raymundo

2012-03-14, 11:24 PM

Well, Haley was using a common idiom and refused the actual bet, so it's *cough* a fair bet to say she wasn't actually planning on betting when she said it in the first place. :smallcool:

It is. But her answer sounded more like "even if we had a bet, I wouldn't pay up" than "nah, I just used a rhetorical figure, so I owe you nothing" to me, which Roy apperently didn't care too much about.

Hallavast

2012-03-15, 04:19 AM

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-15, 05:09 AM

Laws from real world legal systems have about as much merit in this work of fiction as the laws of the Dothraki culture. Except when a certain pair of lawyers are involved.
No need to bring up Jones and Rodriguez. Celia seems to believe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0576.html) that a meeting of the minds leading to mutual assent is a necessary element of a contract. Ganjii also seems to believe such (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html), and attaches equal imporance to consideration.

Hallavast

2012-03-15, 05:33 AM

No need to bring up Jones and Rodriguez. Celia seems to believe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0576.html) that a meeting of the minds leading to mutual assent is a necessary element of a contract. Ganjii also seems to believe such (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html), and attaches equal imporance to consideration.

Indeed, but being ignorant of possibly thousands of in-world cultural norms, we would be foolish to assume any implied consent customs of any kind (or anything else the Giant may happen to think of) do not exist. Further, neither Ganjii nor Celia are human. Their codes may vary.

Kish

2012-03-15, 05:38 AM

It is. But her answer sounded more like "even if we had a bet, I wouldn't pay up" than "nah, I just used a rhetorical figure, so I owe you nothing" to me, which Roy apperently didn't care too much about.
While that is true, I'm now puzzled about what your position is. Do you believe Haley made a bet with Roy that she didn't pay off, or not?

If you're arguing the general point that Haley would not pay off a bet if she made one rather than the specific point that she made a bet there and welshed on it, "Ten gold says she cries--oh, she beat the crap out of us instead of crying, good thing no one could understand me" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) is a better example.

Hallavast

2012-03-15, 05:57 AM

Come now, if you're going to make an argument, at least be clear. What is impinged upon by theft is the right to property, a right the universality of which is certainly contestable.

Are you claiming that Haley does not share a belief in(and an implied acceptanceof) property rights? Or is it that all the people she steals from don't?

Also, if you contend that Celia's position on contract law requires mutual assent, that means theft, by definition is a violation of similar assent.

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-15, 06:02 AM

Are you claiming that Haley does not share a belief in(and an implied acceptanceof) property rights? Or is it that all the people she steals from don't?

Also, if you contend that Celia's position on contract law requires mutual assent, that means theft, by definition is a violation of similar assent.
I made no claim in that post beyond liberty and property rights being two distinct concepts.

raymundo

2012-03-15, 06:10 AM

While that is true, I'm now puzzled about what your position is. Do you believe Haley made a bet with Roy that she didn't pay off, or not?

If you're arguing the general point that Haley would not pay off a bet if she made one rather than the specific point that she made a bet there and welshed on it, "Ten gold says she cries--oh, she beat the crap out of us instead of crying, good thing no one could understand me" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) is a better example.

I believe she made a bet and didnt pay up. But due to the ambiguosity (..or so?) of the situation, I can very well accept an interpretation contrary to this.

Good catch though.

Cavelcade

2012-03-15, 06:12 AM

In further rather large missteps by Roy: letting the Trouser Titan decide what to do about Miko, rather than actually thinking about the type of person she was. And it was completely in character and didn't seem forced. In general Roy has been characterised as a person who tries to do good but has several flaws which can impede him when he's not wary of them.

Edit: As well, I think Haley didn't make a bet but was certainly willing to take full advantage of Roy's statement. Upon being proven wrong she was able to say, quite correctly, that she had been simply stating that she really believed it. Had she being proven correct, she would have been able to say that Roy had made the bet and had to pay up. Roguish, for sure.

BaronOfHell

2012-03-15, 12:06 PM

Well, saying "I bet" is a bet for me, I read it as if she took a bet but just didn't pay up when she lost. Being a rogue a probably of chaotic alignment I didn't found that too odd

If I say "I'll bet" and you then say any arbitrary money amount, it does not mean I've accepted that bet with you. If you lose, I would not want your money, because I never accepted the amount you proposed. Likewise if you win, you won't get the amount of money you decided without my agreement.

raymundo

2012-03-15, 02:34 PM

If I say "I'll bet" and you then say any arbitrary money amount, it does not mean I've accepted that bet with you. If you lose, I would not want your money, because I never accepted the amount you proposed. Likewise if you win, you won't get the amount of money you decided without my agreement.

Yes, the usage of this particular figure of speech was already mentioned. But how you act after saying such a thing depends on your character - apparently you're the honest type, neither wanting nor giving money because the bet wasn't valid. However, I could easily see how Haley would request Roy to pay up if it actually had been a belt of giant strength.

Anyway, maybe it's time to drop this sub-topic..

Hallavast

2012-03-17, 01:32 AM

I made no claim in that post beyond liberty and property rights being two distinct concepts.

Just so. But did you intend to use that claim to refute PebbleInTheSky's assertion that theft intrudes upon rights? Specifically, do you imply that the right to property's status as "not universally accepted" nullifies it from being used as a valid argument against theft (which is the argument pitting Haley's behavior against her claim)?

Edit: Especially in light of the fact that both Haley and most (or at least some) of her victims accept the idea of property as a valid right?

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-17, 06:51 AM

Just so. But did you intend to use that claim to refute PebbleInTheSky's assertion that theft intrudes upon rights? Specifically, do you imply that the right to property's status as "not universally accepted" nullifies it from being used as a valid argument against theft (which is the argument pitting Haley's behavior against her claim)?

Edit: Especially in light of the fact that both Haley and most (or at least some) of her victims accept the idea of property as a valid right?
Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? I was merely trying to help PebbleInTheSky clarify the ideas expressed in that post. What Haley infringes upon is not the liberty of her victims to keep what they have, but their right, such as it is in whatever society they're operating in, to property.

If you want to know what I personally think about property rights, you need only look at my username. But that's getting close to real-world politics, and if you want to discuss that you should take it to PM.

Jasdoif

2012-03-17, 04:28 PM

And then there was the whole Greyskies sequence. Celia, a character who had been written as quite reasonable and intelligent up to this point, suddenly started being a moron...in constant contrast to Haley, who could act as the voice of reason.I don't think that was about Celia's intelligence, but about Celia's arrogance. Seriously, the whole sequence since leaving Azure City involved a lot of Celia insisting she was right and should be listened to. Going so far as to actually tell Haley "That's only because you're not accustomed to being proven wrong so often in such a short period of time" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) on the matter. Celia seems to expect the world to simply conform to her preconceptions...even when she has little/no experience behind them.

Hallavast

2012-03-17, 10:13 PM

Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? You've used this phrase at least twice now, but if you look at my post, you'll notice that I was asking questions.

NO I was merely trying to help PebbleInTheSky clarify the ideas expressed in that post. What Haley infringes upon is not the liberty of her victims to keep what they have, but their right, such as it is in whatever society they're operating in, to property. Ironic, because in doing so, you were being unclear in my opinion. My questions were honest ones, but now I think I understand what you were saying better.

If you want to know what I personally think about property rights, you need only look at my username. But that's getting close to real-world politics, and if you want to discuss that you should take it to PM. No no.
I only wanted to know what you think of them as per their relation to a certain fictional fantasy context. Now that it's been cleared up, I wish to note that I find direct discussion of the real world to be abhorrent and dangerous.

Jay R

2012-03-19, 09:53 AM

Haley: I bet it's a Belt of Giant Strength.
Roy: Yeah? 10 gold says it's not.

Haley is expressing an opinion, using an idiom many people use to express opinion. There is no offer of specific terms or second party. Roy offers to turn it into an actual bet, by adding an amount to it, with himself as the other party. Haley does not accept the offer.Laws from real world legal systems have about as much merit in this work of fiction as the laws of the Dothraki culture.

That's why I didn't cite any laws from real world legal systems. I alluded to the meaning of English as used in actual sentences. Spoken idioms in the English language do have merit in discussing the meaning of dialog in English.

I believe she made a bet and didnt pay up. But due to the ambiguosity (..or so?) of the situation, I can very well accept an interpretation contrary to this.

Makes sense. "It's ambiguous, and we disagree" is certainly a valid conclusion.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-21, 02:08 PM

Im bugged that celia was a pacifist in a time of necessary risk.

Look, I may not like cantaloupe but if my life depends on it (And my friends life ) I would freaking eat it.

She didn't even have to kill anybody. Just knock them out or something!

As long as SHE wasn't the one with bloody hands its A-OK.

She also complained about humans killing each other.

Well sorry, miss prissy pants but the material plane isn't composed of 99% air (Sorta) we have things to fight over. You also have plenty of psychopaths (Invisible stalkers).

So stop your superiority complex!

And what they hell was she doing guarding a rune if she wasn't willing to defend it!

Winter

2012-03-21, 03:18 PM

And what they hell was she doing guarding a rune if she wasn't willing to defend it!

She was not guarding it. She was only the hostess who would say "Welcome... blah blah blah..."
Read back what the other "Guardians" said back then when Roy/Thog and Haley/Sabine reached their sigils. There were not there to fight.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-21, 04:03 PM

Oh right.

Silly me.

Makes sense.

And she was STILL crap at the job.

Winter

2012-03-21, 04:05 PM

And she was STILL crap at the job.

Yepp, because she's some sort of idiot. :)

TheZenMaster

2012-03-21, 04:36 PM

I mean COMON! Your job is to great guys that come once every never! Just say welcome adventurers and collect your paycheck!

veti

2012-03-21, 05:21 PM

And she was STILL crap at the job.

How would you have done it differently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html)?

She gets off her speech - slightly distracted by the fact that the adventurers aren't listening, but she manages anyway. The fact that she then gets turned to stone for no apparent reason whatsoever can hardly be blamed on her.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-21, 06:39 PM

Im paid to do ONE thing. And ONE thing only. Tell a bunch of people that MIGHT after YEARS wander into the place. I ****ing drop that phone call immediately.

:smallwink:

Seriously though I would.

Kish

2012-03-21, 07:27 PM

Even if you hadn't been paid for the past few months?

Your dedication is impressive.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 01:41 AM

Even if you hadn't been paid for the past few months?

Your dedication is impressive.

Well if I was dumb as a doorknob (Hey, Where is everybody. Guess Its best I stay here) yes.

Im still using his house and IM STILL STANDING WATCH. I would leave. But If I didn't I would drop that call.

Gurgeh

2012-03-22, 02:45 AM

You do realise that, uh, she does? The first panel that shows any sign of the PCs has Celia saying "Oh, Mom. I gotta go. There's someone here." She hangs up the phone and gets on with her job as soon as she realises there's something for her to do.

Sometimes I wonder if the people in the forum actually read the damn comic.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 02:53 AM

I would have dropped the phone the second I saw somebody coming.

She needed a freaking arrow to the face in order to stop it.

No "Buy mom". Just "Off"

Seriously, Dumb as a Doorknob.

BaronOfHell

2012-03-22, 04:26 AM

@Zen
Your "arguments", especially regarding the dungeon of Durokan section, of why Celia is "dumb as a doorknob" isn't really convincing me.

I too think that Celia had her moments of stupidity, but I don't find her less or more clever than most of the other participants in this story. She fits very well the universe she exists in and I think that's pretty hard to do when a character have such amazing ideals.

Further more, I'd like to add that she did end up accepting risk as she went through the mortal world. Her acceptance of risk just happens in ways many might be unfamiliar with. After all, she did end up getting the entire amount (minus 1) of thieves guild casualties resurrected (or at least she think she did).
Her risk taking was in the team being able to deal with the situation without her needing to harm someone. That was a huge risk to take and she succeeded. Some might say it was a foolish risk, but in all honesty, it's pretty easy to say when you're reading a comic compared to a character who's supposed to think it's reality and also gets a gut feeling of death == unmaking. Clearly she failed at many places, like the gnome who never got resurrected or the goblin outpost. It's not like she showed indifference towards these murders, but she realised she didn't have anything she could do, so it made no sense to go through the effort of trying to do something.

What I find funny about Celia is that she's oblivious to what is actually going on around her, unless it's showed to her in a clear cut manner. I'm not only talking about the early scene of greysky here, I'm talking about everything she achieves. Because she thinks she lives up to her ideal, despite she actually to some extend fails to do so, because the solution she comes up with, which she thinks works, does not always do so. As a result, she seems arrogant, because she's convinced she was right all along, while everyone else can see what she doesn't see.

I don't think that's a trait of stupidness. I'm quite convinced it's more a trait of having to deal with a vastly different culture without being sufficiently prepared. Which she obviously weren't.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 04:42 AM

Lets see here:

There is no argument she is dumb as a doorknob:

She stays in a dungeon suddenly inhabited by Goblins. Even though she isn't receiving her paycheck. For MONTHS.

Further more, I'd like to add that she did end up accepting risk as she went through the mortal world. Her acceptance of risk just happens in ways many might be unfamiliar with. After all, she did end up getting the entire amount (minus 1) of thieves guild casualties resurrected (or at least she think she did).

All horrible people, that wouldn't even NEED to die if it wasn't for her.

"Good for you, you resurrected a rapist, a serial killer, a thief, a animal abuser AND a Necropheliac!"

Her risk taking was in the team being able to deal with the situation without her needing to harm someone. That was a huge risk to take and she succeeded.

She contributed nothing useful. At all.

Thats exactly what she did. She had NO useful contributions. At all.

She Won a staged trail.

She sent a bunch of knocked out guys to jail that immediately escaped.

She Sent roy to a necromancer in a thieves city even though haley was against it.

Which resulted in TONS of deaths of others.

Almost the Death of Haley.

And Haley almost loosing the money she could use to save Her father from a Tyrannical dictator (Who was actualy a nice guy).

She is a dead weight.

martianmister

2012-03-22, 04:44 AM

I would have dropped the phone the second I saw somebody coming.

She did. :smallconfused:

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 04:49 AM

She did. :smallconfused:

No she didn't. She continued talking and Eventually put her phone down.

All the other sprites IMMEDIATELY dropped their crap and IMMEDIATELY greeted.

Not her.

Well you might say its unfair, but remember. SHE IS GETTING PAID FOR DOING THIS AND ONLY THIS.

BaronOfHell

2012-03-22, 04:56 AM

Lets see here:

There is no argument she is dumb as a doorknob:
Good, we almost agree then. The thing is, there's not valid argument from you, that she's dumb as a doorknob.

"Good for you, you resurrected a rapist, a serial killer, a thief, a animal abuser AND a Necropheliac!"
Is this about a persons choosen ideals or how she tries to live up to those ideals??

It would be prudent if you'd at least realise that Celia does not read the comic, she only knows what she sees given her background. How she acted seems very much in accordiance to what I'd expect. But please tell me, what would you have done different in all those cases you list? How would you not qualify for the same criticism you apply, had you been in the exact same situation?

Kish

2012-03-22, 05:22 AM

SHE IS GETTING PAID
Again--no. She isn't.

And "pacifism=brain death" meshes oddly with your handle.

And as far as "she's contributed nothing," she's the only reason Haley didn't just get ripped in half by devils and then buried in Redcloak's earthquake.

Gurgeh

2012-03-22, 05:22 AM

No she didn't. She continued talking and Eventually put her phone down.
You're kidding, right? She took all of five seconds to wrap up a conversation and segued directly into her greeting spiel. If you don't think that's fast then you are clearly not going to be open to any argument whatsoever.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 05:47 AM

Good, we almost agree then. The thing is, there's not valid argument from you, that she's dumb as a doorknob.

Keeping a Job that doesn't pay her anything AT ALL in a dungeon inhabited by Goblins and she hasn't seen her employer for months?

Is this about a persons choosen ideals or how she tries to live up to those ideals??

She is outright making the world a worse place. Its one thing to not want to kill. Its another to bring back killers and thieves.

It would be prudent if you'd at least realise that Celia does not read the comic, she only knows what she sees given her background.

She still lives in "DND" land. Her home plane has animated chuncks of air that go around killing you. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/invisibleStalker.htm)

Having principles is fine, but don't act superior when you get people killed.

How she acted seems very much in accordiance to what I'd expect. But please tell me, what would you have done different in all those cases you list? How would you not qualify for the same criticism you apply, had you been in the exact same situation?

I would:

A: Not choose lethal sorcerer spells if I wasn't going to use them OR Take Nonlethal metamagic (+0 Adjustment to spells)

B: Pick Charm spells

C: Use nonlethal damage (Saps)

D: Shoot people in the knee. What? Its the Terminator way.

You're kidding, right?

I am. :smallbiggrin:

martianmister

2012-03-22, 05:53 AM

I am. :smallbiggrin:

:annoyed:

I have nothing to say...

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 05:54 AM

:annoyed:

I have nothing to say...

TROLOLOLOLOL!
:smallbiggrin:

Hopefully this light trolling doesn't get me a point or something.

BaronOfHell

2012-03-22, 06:00 AM

Point is her princibles are stupid.
I see.

She still lives in "DND" land. Her home plane has animated chuncks of air that go around killing you. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/invisibleStalker.htm)
I don't know much about the difference from outer planes, however is it not possible that just like there are murderers in our would, the probability of encountering one if you live in certain areas is close to zero, if you live in the right places in her plane? I mean it's possible to sustain educations after all, so I'd be surprised if these creatures are spread homogenous throughout the plane.
Which means we should not focus on the plane itself, but the parts of the plane she inhabits, if you want to question her background. Though I see little point, since she stated in-comic her belief system and showed several times how oblivirous she was in regard to how the mortal plane worked.

A: Not choose lethal sorcerer spells if I wasn't going to use them OR Take Nonlethal metamagic (+0 Adjustment to spells)

B: Pick Charm spells

C: Use nonlethal damage (Saps)

D: Shoot people in the knee. What? Its the Terminator way.
I don't know how sylphs functions, but given she knew soo little about the world she was in, I am not certain she really knew what would have been lethal and what would not have been lethal. It was, btw. not like she was prepared for a betrayal anyway, so I'm not certain how she could have charm spells ready, but then again, I don't know how sylphs work.

PS: Please notice a lot of your criticism is from before comic ~100. At that time, Celia maybe wasn't even a pacifist given her story might not have existed yet. I'd certainly not hold it against her, if she presented someone else at that time.
About holding a job for months without pay, I'd say we really don't know enough about what she could expect if she left, to determine if she should have left any sooner. After all, we already know about how hard she had getting a job in the first place and if Dorukan (who could in principle have been arrogant enough to just leave like that for a long period of time) came back one day and removed Xykon and the goblins, she'd want to be at her post.

Hopefully this light trolling doesn't get me a point or something.
Well I must have been an idiot for ever taking you seriously then.

cloudland

2012-03-22, 06:10 AM

Seems like a few things have been forgot here:
1. Talking is a free action. Since she didn't go into a lengthy essay, it took her in fact 0 seconds to stop talking on the phone. Lots of character in this world go into long talk in the middle of combat, that's normal because it's a free action, which could have got themselves killed if it wasn't for the fact that it's a free action.
2. The resistant would have been killed much sooner if Celia didn't point out that killing those goblin would leave a trail to where they're hiding.
3. Haley hide from Celia the real reason for avoiding Graysky city. Graysky isn't even a sensible place to exist as portrayed, considering there seems to be more criminal than their victim. So it's more likely that the whole street full of crime Celia walked through is more about a hyperbole to show that the city is dangerous, not to show that Celia is oblivious to such obvious crime.
4. How does this Haley thread devolved into Celia-is-dumb thread?

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 06:13 AM

I see.

I was being arrogant about that.

I don't know much about the difference from outer planes, however is it not possible that just like there are murderers in our would, the probability of encountering one if you live in certain areas is close to zero, if you live in the right places in her plane?

This is more of a "Pah, in The air plane we don't kill each other!" complaint. The air plane is as if not more dangerous as the meterial plane.

I don't know how sylphs functions, but given she knew soo little about the world she was in, I am not certain she really knew what would have been lethal and what would not have been lethal.

So she is not even from DND land? Because thats a core rule of DND land.

It was, btw. not like she was prepared for a betrayal anyway, so I'm not certain how she could have charm spells ready, but then again, I don't know how sylphs work.

She has sorcerer levels. She could just prepare them the next day.

About holding a job for months without pay, I'd say we really don't know enough about what she could expect if she left, to determine if she should have left any sooner. After all, we already know about how hard she had getting a job in the first place and if Dorukan (who could in principle have been arrogant enough to just leave like that for a long period of time) came back one day and removed Xykon and the goblins, she'd want to be at her post.

Its like if Terrorists flooded your building and waiting for months for swat to arrive.

Well I must have been an idiot for ever taking you seriously then.

Its mostly about the job. That was Lols.

Otherwise I was serious.

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-22, 06:15 AM

She has sorcerer levels. She could just not possibly prepare them the next day.
Sorcerers don't work the way you seem to think they work.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 06:24 AM

Sorcerers don't work the way you seem to think they work.

Sorry:

She has sorcerer levels. She could just not possibly prepare them the next day use them immediately.

Seriously, What pacifist Guardian doesn't have Charm Person? Or at least some protective spells!

Gurgeh

2012-03-22, 08:04 AM

Given that Charm Person only works on humanoids, it seems pretty reasonable for Celia to not have it. It's not as if she'd have many potential targets in the plane of Air.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 08:29 AM

Given that Charm Person only works on humanoids, it seems pretty reasonable for Celia to not have it. It's not as if she'd have many potential targets in the plane of Air.

Still. What fracking spells does she have then?

Lightning bolt (THAT SHE NEVER USES UNLESS THIER UNDEAD)

??

Deceive spells? Sleep? Charm Monster?

Look its a tier 2 class. Im sure she could figure something out.

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-22, 08:45 AM

Still. What fracking spells does she have then?

Lightning bolt (THAT SHE NEVER USES UNLESS THIER UNDEAD)

??

Deceive spells? Sleep? Charm Monster?

Look its a tier 2 class. Im sure she could figure something out.
Presuming she's got six hit dice, her spell list, that we know about, looks like this:

3rd - Lightning Bolt
2nd - Alter Self, Fog Cloud
1st - Detect Secret Doors, ???, ???, ???
0th - ???, ???, ???, ???, ???, ???, ???

EDIT: Celia's never fought undead. She's fought, and used lightning against, flesh golems, where to be fair the tactical mistake is probably worse.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 09:04 AM

EDIT: Celia's never fought undead. She's fought, and used lightning against, flesh golems, where to be fair the tactical mistake is probably worse.

I mean Mage armor? Cast it on Haley?

I mean why take Lightning Bolt if your going to NEVER use it?

Hold person? Something or other?

Or something.

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-22, 09:14 AM

I mean Mage armor? Cast it on Haley?

I mean why take Lightning Bolt if your going to NEVER use it?

Hold person? Something or other?

Or something.
Well, OOTS characters are often deliberately anti-optimized. For most of the characters, this means taking options (archery rogue, single-classed fighter, barring Conjuration, fighter/rogue/sorcerer multiclass, etc.) that hamper their effectiveness in combat. For Celia, it means picking combat spells despite never wanting to see combat. Obviously. :smallwink:

We also know that the talisman she gave Roy was activated by electricity, and that her mother had a similar talisman. Celia barely had to look at Grubwiggler's golem-making machine to know where to shoot the lightning that powered it. Maybe devices that are activated by lightning are common in sylph society, and taking Lightning Bolt or Shocking Grasp is crucial to functioning as an independent person in that society.

Still another consideration is the spell list's theme. Lightning bolt and Fog Cloud are both fairly heavily associated with Air as a classical element, as is Celia herself.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 10:37 AM

zimmerwald1915

2012-03-22, 11:03 AM

Still. I would go around shooting people in the leg or hitting them with nonlethal damage.

THATS how you do things and prove that you don't want deaths.

If she asked her to use nonlethal damage maybe, and only used nonlethal damage herself I could respect that.
Something tells me the Giant doesn't write his characters or tailor their actions to please you. Or any of us, really. Perhaps that something is the FAQ that contains a tirade on that subject. :smallwink:

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 11:10 AM

Gift Jeraff

2012-03-22, 11:36 AM

I get that. Im just saying WHY I dislike her.

The Giant is awesome. The Haley Dismiss scene is great.

He didn't write her like "The correct" choice. Just as an annoying character.

Perfect for the job. :smallcool:I don't know, the commentary makes it seem like her views are supposed to be "the correct" choice. At least, in comparison to the average adventurer. But that's just my interpretation.

EDIT: Well, the ideal choice, not necessarily the "correct" one.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 11:44 AM

Commentary from what?

BaronOfHell

2012-03-22, 11:49 AM

This is more of a "Pah, in The air plane we don't kill each other!" complaint. The air plane is as if not more dangerous as the meterial plane.

She says herself that she doesn't experience this. Ergo the part of the plane of air she occupies are not the same parts where those dangers can be found.

So she is not even from DND land? Because thats a core rule of DND land.
I don't know what is core rule and what isn't. Core rules, when reading other threads, seems to be the most basic rules, something that is the same in all D&D games. But would humans lack of ability to shoot lightning through their fingers or sense magic by their teeth not count as core rules too then?
Honestly, I don't think metaing applies at all to a character which is supposed to have grown up and lived in the world in stead of being a player who started at adult stage with some selected skills, spells, etc.

Its like if Terrorists flooded your building and waiting for months for swat to arrive.
No it is not. Her phone call clearly reveals she did not feel she was in any explicit danger from gang Xykon during the previous months. Which turns out to be totally true as well. Of course Xykon and the goblins could have attacked the vaults, at which point I don't think she'd have waited around (like she did for adventurers) and merely used the employers exit.

I'm not saying you're necessarily incorrect, it might have been a bad choice, but we don't know what choices she had, so I'm not willing to make the conclusion. All I can see is that the analogy does not hold true.

Its mostly about the job. That was Lols.
Well, I think it was indeed written mostly to be funny and I doubt Celia was even a pacifist or supposed to be a lawyer or a specific important character at the time it was written. As such I find it a bit strange to put the Celia we met in dungeons of Durokan in the same box as the Celia we meet afterwards.

Valyrian

2012-03-22, 11:56 AM

Wait, so a not completely optimized character is annoying by default?

TheZenMaster

2012-03-22, 12:25 PM

She says herself that she doesn't experience this. Ergo the part of the plane of air she occupies are not the same parts where those dangers can be found.

Possible. If only she didn't brag about it.

I don't know what is core rule and what isn't. Core rules, when reading other threads, seems to be the most basic rules, something that is the same in all D&D games.

You can even inflict nonlethal damage with a adamantine +5 Undead bane battleaxe if you want.

Its a core rule. Its in ALL DD games (Im not sure about 1-2 e).

But would humans lack of ability to shoot lightning through their fingers or sense magic by their teeth not count as core rules too then?
Actualy. Yep. :smalltongue:

Thing is while a character might not know what one monster can do, they still know what rules the monster follows.

Honestly, I don't think metaing applies at all to a character which is supposed to have grown up and lived in the world in stead of being a player who started at adult stage with some selected skills, spells, etc.

Thats the joke. Al the characters use metagame knowledge about skills and ability scores and stuff.

In what other universe could brain damage be cured by taking some extra int points?

No it is not. Her phone call clearly reveals she did not feel she was in any explicit danger from gang Xykon during the previous months.

Thats because there where safe rooms. Seriously, how many months does it take for you to get a new job?

I'm not saying you're necessarily incorrect, it might have been a bad choice, but we don't know what choices she had, so I'm not willing to make the conclusion. All I can see is that the analogy does not hold true.

True. Maybe whatever. Who knows, maybe your right and this has happened before:

"And I needed to wait for a MONTH to get rid of the sucubuses he summoned"
:smallbiggrin:

BaronOfHell

2012-03-22, 12:56 PM

Commentary from what?

The books the giant publishes have commentary in them. Since the ark with Celia occured during DStP, I imagine that would be the book the commentary was in, though I don't know for sure.

hamishspence

2012-03-22, 04:54 PM

it is. For those who want to know what was said supporting Celia's viewpoint:

Celia also abhors acts of violence, as I hope most of my readers do in real life. The world of fantasy roleplaying is nothing like real life though, and violence is an inherent part of that- sometimes realistically, and sometimes because bashing monsters is more fun than talking to them. Nonetheless, I am often amazed by the number of people who resort to killing as the first solution to any problem in-game. It made me wonder what people who don't play the game would think about the actions of most adventurers. Celia became the voice of that outside world- those whose hobbies don't involve pretending to murder intelligent reptilian beasts in their own homes.

On the other side of the coin, suggesting that Celia has, in some way, screwed up:

It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can make mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.

Anyway, it is her screw-ups that are on display in the final scene here. Admittedly, the entire situation could have been avoided if Haley had just told Celia why she didn't want to go to Greysky City, but remember Haley has issues with secrets. Celia's mistake is not heeding the advice of someone who has experience in these sort of things because she confuses how she wants the world to work with how it actually does work.

Gurgeh

2012-03-22, 08:29 PM

Its a core rule. Its in ALL DD games (Im not sure about 1-2 e).
Don't know how much time you've spent playing 3.5, but nonlethal damage from spellcasting (barring spells which explicitly inflicted nonlethal damage as part of their description) wasn't introduced until Complete Arcane and wasn't really properly implemented until Complete Mage.

Hold Person would also have been useless. Plane of Air, yo. I don't really buy into the whole "oh yes she ought to be completely optimised for fighting battles and winning them without using lethal damage" thing, because her whole schtick was not to be fighting in the first place, but even if that you do accept it, you must realise that her options as a low-level sorcerer-equivalent are pretty terrible given her native environment. It's pretty difficult to find useful enchantment spells that affect non-humanoids until you reach fourth and fifth-level Sor/Wiz spells and you get stuff like Charm Monster and Hold Monster.

I played a cleric/wizard Mystic Theurge in a military campaign, and I can assure you I experienced no end of frustration when I deliberately prepared non-lethal spells in order to get interrogation subjects, only to find out that half of them were useless because we were mostly fighting Outsiders and Monstrous Humanoids.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-23, 04:31 AM

Don't know how much time you've spent playing 3.5, but nonlethal damage from spellcasting (barring spells which explicitly inflicted nonlethal damage as part of their description) wasn't introduced until Complete Arcane and wasn't really properly implemented until Complete Mage.

Even so, I could just use a nonlethal club.

Hold Person would also have been useless. Plane of Air, yo. I don't really buy into the whole "oh yes she ought to be completely optimised for fighting battles and winning them without using lethal damage" thing, because her whole schtick was not to be fighting in the first place, but even if that you do accept it, you must realise that her options as a low-level sorcerer-equivalent are pretty terrible given her native environment. It's pretty difficult to find useful enchantment spells that affect non-humanoids until you reach fourth and fifth-level Sor/Wiz spells and you get stuff like Charm Monster and Hold Monster.

OK then. Where are the abjuration spells? Still great stuff.

I played a cleric/wizard Mystic Theurge in a military campaign, and I can assure you I experienced no end of frustration when I deliberately prepared non-lethal spells in order to get interrogation subjects, only to find out that half of them were useless because we were mostly fighting Outsiders and Monstrous Humanoids.

I get you, all Im saying is that Celia even with non-optimal spell selection could still have done more then do nothing and be stubbornly dumb.

BaronOfHell

2012-03-23, 05:11 AM

Even so, I could just use a nonlethal club.
I don't think that'd even have crossed Celia's mind, but if it did, it seems to be a method of even more unnecessary risk. She'd be getting into a dangerous melee position and she'd not be much help in that position. Considering she'd be unmade if she had fallen in the battle, it doesn't seem like a good idea, in my opinion.

I think it's important to consider that her type of death is way worse than what the rogue guild could ever have done to Haley, or Belkar. Even by being present on the material plane under the circumstances she was, seems to have been a higher risk than any member of the order had done for their entire adventure.

As such, I find it only reasonable that if she should have engaged in the battle, it should have been in as risk-free ways as possible. Which follows going into range and spell casting. Considering that she might very well not have known how to deal unlethal damage doing the battle, and all unlethal spells she otherwise could cast would have to make sense in regard to her upbringing on the plane of air, I find plausible that she actually did all what could be reasonably expected from her.

It does not mean she couldn't have done a lot of stuff better, or that she didn't act foolishly in certain situations, etc. But I am merely trying to point out it's a common trait for all the actors in the setting. Therefor I think it's unfair to target only Celia, merely because her range of incompetence exposes itself through different means than most other characters. Personally, she's one of the characters whose interactions I have enjoyed the most.

TheZenMaster

2012-03-23, 06:32 AM

OK then. Use the Crossbow.

Thing is that if haley slept for another 15 minutes, Cecelia would have her wings torn off and grounded into pixie powder.

Im not arguing that

Fighting= Logic.

But if Logic=Fighting

Do it.

She is so unfazed by HALEY killing the other guild members (Even saying ooh-minty)

Her principles would have cost her her life, Haleys Life, Roys life (Resurection), Heleys father would still be in a gladitorial pit and possibly the universes life.

She stubbornly stands by her princibles even when they are not applicable and yells:

"MY PRINCIPLES ARE THE BEST! WHY CAN'T YOU ALL BE LIKE ME!"

Thats my argument that she is a dumb person and a dumb character (Gee, this dark skeleton filled moseleum of castle with a frog guy in control- Seems trustworthy).

Not that she is a BAD character.

oppyu

2012-03-23, 06:54 AM

Putting a pacifist in a violent, dangerous situation is like putting a dedicated vegan in some kind of twisted Saw-esque machine where they have to eat meat or die. It's not Celia's fault that, in the course of trying to protect her boyfriend's skeleton and bring him back to life, she ended up in a situation where her deeply held principles were dangerously unapplicable. (And non-violence is still way smarter than attacking with weapons she has no experience with; notice how the Guild captured her for leverage. If she had been fighting them, they would have probably just killed her.)

As for the bone golem thing, she is essentially a tourist. What experience would a lawful good, naive fairy (or whatever) have with a place like Greysky?

veti

2012-03-23, 06:59 AM

Her principles would have cost her her life, Haleys Life, Roys life (Resurection), Heleys father would still be in a gladitorial pit and possibly the universes life.

She stubbornly stands by her princibles even when they are not applicable and yells:

"MY PRINCIPLES ARE THE BEST! WHY CAN'T YOU ALL BE LIKE ME!"

That's the point of principles. You stand by them even when they're inconvenient. The measure of how principled you are is, exactly how inconvenienced you're prepared to be.

(As for principles "not being applicable", I don't understand what that means.)

Endangering the whole world for a matter of principle (not that she knew about that danger)? Well, I can think of at least one precedent for that in pop culture - Rorschach.

Valyrian

2012-03-23, 07:04 AM

"MY PRINCIPLES ARE THE BEST! WHY CAN'T YOU ALL BE LIKE ME!"

Thats my argument that she is a dumb person and a dumb character.
Maybe that's an argument that she's an arrogant, unpragmatic or even annoying character, but I don't see how considering her own principles to be right automatically makes her dumb.

oppyu

2012-03-23, 07:07 AM

That's the point of principles. You stand by them even when they're inconvenient. The measure of how principled you are is, exactly how inconvenienced you're prepared to be.

(As for principles "not being applicable", I don't understand what that means.)

Endangering the whole world for a matter of principle (not that she knew about that danger)? Well, I can think of at least one precedent for that in pop culture - Rorschach.
Not a great example; Rorschach was a psychopathic, mass-murdering lunatic who because of his principles, ended up trapped eternally in wherever Dr. Manhattan goes off to be a whiny, omnipotent emo :smalltongue:

TheZenMaster

2012-03-23, 07:16 AM

Putting a pacifist in a violent, dangerous situation is like putting a dedicated vegan in some kind of twisted Saw-esque machine where they have to eat meat or die.

Once again, this is DD land. Where the walls celling and floor all try to eat you.

Even if she didn't live in monster areas, she would have had to have known abou

She could have just motivated haley and left.

It's not Celia's fault that

It was.

"Hey Celia, don't go into that cave. Its a bad idea"

"I don' care"

Dragon: "Nom"

And non-violence is still way smarter than attacking with weapons she has no experience with

It could have led up to a funny joke about celiea saying she never touched a longbow in her life followed up by her having amazing proficiency with battleaxes and chain arm.

Shes an outsider. All outiseders have wep prof.

notice how the Guild captured her for leverage. If she had been fighting them, they would have probably just killed her

They would have killed her if she was in a slightly different area of the house.

That was luck due to coincedence.

As for the bone golem thing, she is essentially a tourist. What experience would a lawful good, naive fairy (or whatever) have with a place like Greysky?

None, so listen to the tour guide you dumb bimbo!

She knows what a necromancer is. A single word of "I hate undeads" is enough to convince her that hes not going to make zombRoys

Personally, I think Celia is technically responsible for all the guilmembers deaths.

Why doesn't SHE work to pay them all back?

Endangering the whole world for a matter of principle (not that she knew about that danger)? Well, I can think of at least one precedent for that in pop culture - Rorschach.

So shes stupid. Thats all im arguing.

Templarkommando

2012-03-23, 10:00 AM

Math_Mage

2012-03-23, 01:07 PM

The statement in comic 844 by Haley was: "I don't know. I mean lawful types do have a tendency to try to make everyone else think the same way they do - or else."

My answer to that would be: "So Haley, do you want me to think that way?"

Furthermore, even if it is the case that a LG type character wanted someone else to think the way that they do, it is not necessarily a bad thing. For example, a Lawful Good character might hold the position that it is wrong to murder someone in cold blood and want others to hold the same value. His position is not invalidated by the fact that he wants others to hold those values.

The only thing that I can think of which would invalidate a character's wanting other characters to share values is if those values are verifiably false, or evil.

I think Haley's contention is that the degree of ideological evangelism changes as you go from Chaotic to Lawful. A CG character might hold the position that it's okay to play Robin Hood and waylay filthy rich nobles for the benefit of the poor, and not expect anyone else to hold that position. A LG character might hold the position that it's necessary to tax those nobles for the welfare of the people, and in that case he's expecting enough people to agree that such a policy could be enacted. It's not so much that ideological evangelism is WRONG, though Haley as a CG character dislikes or disagrees with it.

The question is, is this contention borne out by our knowledge of D&D and the events of the comic?

Kish

2012-03-23, 06:14 PM

The question is, is this contention borne out by our knowledge of D&D and the events of the comic?
Not touching "in D&D," but in the comic, I'd say that's a clear no.

Ian screamed at his daughter for not acting cripplingly paranoid as a child; Haley herself has always acted like "be greedy and paranoid and break the laws freely" is the only correct way to behave, at least as much as (I would actually say, considerably more than) Roy or Durkon has ever acted like everyone should be duty-bound.

Gurgeh

2012-03-23, 08:37 PM

I'd also argue that Haley being CG isn't really supported by her actions, but that's a dead horse now.

dps

2012-03-23, 08:37 PM

Not touching "in D&D," but in the comic, I'd say that's a clear no.

Ian screamed at his daughter for not acting cripplingly paranoid as a child; Haley herself has always acted like "be greedy and paranoid and break the laws freely" is the only correct way to behave, at least as much as (I would actually say, considerably more than) Roy or Durkon has ever acted like everyone should be duty-bound.

This is the problem that I have with the comic in question. Sure, during the course of the story, Haley has come into contact with LG types who seem to have the attitude she describes--Miko and Eugene in particular--but there have also been plenty of LG types who don't display that type of behavior to any real degree, particularly the 2 LG characters in her own adventuring party.